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Greymarch
11-11-2005, 00:56
Well I've been informed that I shall be involved in a Siege game this coming Tuesday. Unfortunately points haven't been worked out yet, but it's Skaven (me) and Vampire Counts vs Empire and High Elves.

I'm not sure what the VC player is going to have, he sometimes uses the SoC Armylist... But what I've seen implies that he may bring wraiths and a fighty-lord on a Nightmare to the table.

Myself, I have pretty much every Skaven selection except for Pestilens. I'm even tinkering with using the Eshin list to sneak in first and get some kills. If we're playing with enough points I could even use Sniktch...

The Empire player has a fairly shooty army, and I know he owns a Steamtank... He is also fond of fielding a Priest with the "Hat o' Skavenslaying". He usually fields a couple of blocks of swordmen, with handgun detachments, and an Engineer off by his Cannon.

The High Elf player is fairly cavalry heavy, so I expect that he may start outside the castle and run interference. I also heard him saying something about gluing together Phoenix Guard...

So any suggestions for Siege games? Skaven specific even?

made_of_metal
11-11-2005, 03:36
Which side of the castle walls are you on?

starlight
11-11-2005, 03:45
From the post, it sounds like the outside.

Taking that assumption...

See if the VC player can get something to drop inside the castle, something Terror causing perhaps...

Lots of large cheap (throwaway) Sakven targets outside could be used to distract the defenders and might enable you to sneak some sneaky gits inside to cause more chaos and distraction.

Sweep the walls with Ratling Guns and use the Warp Lightning Cannon on the gate to clear the way for the VC hitty/killy units. If you provide the targets, distraction and firepower the VC should live long enough to get inside.

Tormentor of Slaanesh
11-11-2005, 19:23
dominate magic and destroy troops on a rampart and then summon troops on it. before anyones says it you can summon onto ramparts jsut not inside.
dont try to breach the wall.

Greymarch
12-11-2005, 01:43
Well I'm picturing Gutter Runners with grappling hooks myself, but just curious why you'd say "don't breach the wall"?

Sounds like I'll have 4000 points to work with! Man! Gotta assemble my Screaming Bell!

Keller
12-11-2005, 06:28
Well I'm picturing Gutter Runners with grappling hooks myself, but just curious why you'd say "don't breach the wall"?

Breaching the walls is just too inefficient. The high toughness means you will have a hard time getting damage rolls at all (S of attack + # of wound per attack = 12+), then you have to pound away at them to bring them down a little with each successful "wound". Its not even worth trying unless you have Empire Great Cannons, which do S10+D6 to the castle.

Its far easier to just scale the walls using Hooks, Ladders, and Flying troops. Going after the gates isn't so bad, so its usually worth while to send a unit to bust it down, just to keep the pressure on the defenders. Besides, there is only so much space on the walls for ladder troops.

Still, I can't help but send a unit of zombies to batter down a wall for fun when I play Siege with my VC, even though the wall collapsing does seriously hurt units near it.

skavenguy13
12-11-2005, 13:36
Maybe you could place a couple cannons at the right spot to kill the shooters on the remparts (zapping them from their flank to hit each one).
In this particuliar situation, I'd agree you need a unit of stormvermin with the umbranner, as there will probably be lots of handguns.

You could ask the VC player to take a couple units of bats to take down warmachines quickly. Also, I guess a winged nightmare (or even 2) could be really nice to cause terror on the remparts.

Keller
12-11-2005, 16:48
Maybe you could place a couple cannons at the right spot to kill the shooters on the remparts (zapping them from their flank to hit each one).

Unfortunately, Cannons/Boltthrowers will always with the walls when firing at the castle. You can't hit troops unless they come out of the castle.

skavenguy13
12-11-2005, 17:44
Can tunnelers erupt from inside the castle? They'd be awesome! But I really doubt they can.
And if you plan on giving some runners grappling hook, I suggest they be mostly night runners (with 2 weapons). With the elf cavalry around, gutter runners would get creamed. And if you lose night runners, it's not too big of a loss.

Keller
12-11-2005, 21:05
Can tunnelers erupt from inside the castle? They'd be awesome! But I really doubt they can.
And if you plan on giving some runners grappling hook, I suggest they be mostly night runners (with 2 weapons). With the elf cavalry around, gutter runners would get creamed. And if you lose night runners, it's not too big of a loss.


I don't think so. While there is nothing stated in the main rule book, there was an amendment to siege games published in the 2002 Annual. Among the changes were that undead could not summon into the courtyard (through the walls), Ethereal units cannot pass through the castle.

Actually, come to think of it, I think the Seige scenario specifically states that no special deployment rules can be used, scouting or tunneling.

Tormentor of Slaanesh
12-11-2005, 21:39
i forgot the screaming bell. you may hear bellows of cheese.....
the grappling hook idea is a good 1, i use ladders myself.
have a greyseer if you can and lots of necromancers.
blast the cannons with magic and/or shooting. do't both with ethereals, just have lots of bodies.

Greymarch
13-11-2005, 00:40
Would the special properties of the WLC allow it to shoot through walls or the gate? As in aimed at the infantry/cavalry/war machines behind them since it can shoot through "terrain"?

skavenguy13
13-11-2005, 03:50
The fortress walls are mainly made from stone I'd say. And stone is the only thing the WLC can't go through.

Keller
13-11-2005, 07:38
I think the walls are considered to be "blessed" or whatever, so that they are effectivly "table edges" for determining such things. You cannot cast through them, ethereal units cannot pass through them, so I would say they stop any WLC, but I don't know anything about them.

Greymarch
17-11-2005, 00:47
Well, we had the game and it ended up a horrible massacre in my favour. Oh man.

I was misinformed as to the points, the besiegers had 4000 total, so that gave me 2000 to work with. The Empire player "designed" the scenario, so we weren't playing the standard Siege game. He had 1000 points in the castle, and 1500 points of High Elves would come in as a relief force from a short board edge as Reserve (a la 40K).

This was a mistake.

Anyways, lemme inform you of the armies. I'm not even sure what the VC player really had, but I'll see what I can recall.

Skaven:
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell w/ Warp Amulet and Eye of Horned Rat
(Some may say cheesey, but this is what the bell is for! And I really don't know why I took the WA, since the Bell gave him a 3+ Ward.... Oh well)
Chieftan BSB with Storm Banner
25 Clanrats + Command & Ratling Gun
25 Clanrats + Command & Ratling Gun
25 Clanrats + Command & Warpfire Thrower
26 Stormvermin + Command & Shields +Banner of Swarm + Siege Tower
20 Slaves + Musician
25 Slaves + Musician
10 Night Runners +Hand Weapon & Grappling Hooks
4 Jezzails
1 Warp Lightning Cannon

Vampire Counts:
Wight Lord
Wight Lord
Necromancer
~20 Zombies with Siege Tower
~20 Grave Guard with 4 Ladders
~10 Ghouls
Banshee
3 Spirit Hosts
2 Giant Bats
2 Giant Bats
2 Giant Bats

Empire (Artillery Train of Nuln):
Engineer with Hochland Long Rifle
Warrior Priest
Cannon
Cannon
Mortar
Mortar
Hellblaster
20-25 Halbediers
10 Handgunners
10 Handgunners
10 Handgunners

High Elves:
Commander with Sword of Might
Mage (lvl 2) with Null Stone
8 Silver Helms
9 Silver Helms with Banner that wounds undead, dunno name
20 Spearelves
20 Spearelves with banner that makes em immune to panic
10 Swordmen of Hoethe
(They may have had another character, not sure)

Greymarch
17-11-2005, 01:45
We set up surrounding the castle on 3 sides (our board wasn't big enough to do it with the fortress in the middle). The "top" (from my vantage point) contained the zombies with Siege Tower, Grave Guard, and some Bats. The left long side had the rest of the bats, both VC characters, zombies with a Bettering Ram, Banshee and Spirit Hosts. Plus the WLC, Clanrats pushing the Bell, Jezzails and another unit of Clanrats. To the bottom I had both Slave Units, Stormvermin, Night Runners and by not paying attention I accidently put my Chieftan in a unit of Slaves! (as they weren't painted, my units looked quite similar to each other...)

First turn I unfurl the Storm Banner and NONE of the artillery is able to fire! Woo! Handgunners kill like a zombie and a stormvermin.

We skitter/shamble forward. The storm ends. Eh. Plague kills 2 of the men manning a Mortar and spreads to take out some handgunners. WLC tickles the door with its STR 2 awesomeness. Warplightning frags a Cannon crew. Bell dongs and makes my guys Stubborn this turn. Joy.

Next turn, no High Elves. BOTH Mortars misfire! They just miss though, nothing serious. The still manned Cannon blows my Siege Tower away, and 3 brave Stormvermin die inside.

Wight Lord throws his grappling hook and scales the gate wall to deal with the Engineer. Everything else moves forward again. Plague kills the last guy on the Mortar, but doesn't spread any further. LOS is blocked for anything else. More Zombies appear... WLC manages a STR 4 attack against the gate! Does nothing! Then I ring the bell.... and all hell breaks loose.

-2 of the 4 towers are weakened, giving us +1 to damage them later
-a third tower has it's ramarts destroyed, one brave Cannoneer survives though.
-The unmanned Mortar falls apart
-Both Cannons take 1 Wound
-The Siege Tower the Zombies are pushing blows up, killing 8 of them! Whoops!
-One wall takes some damage, giving us a +1 to damage it
-The wall with the gate is destroyed! The Wight Lord and Engineer/Handgunners come crashing to the ground. Resulting in the Wight Lord vs Engineer + 1 Hangunner now...
-The destroyed wall section also lands right on my Warp Fire Thrower, killing them

We all sort of looked at the devestation for a moment. And then the Empire player announced "New Prime Target!"

Wight Lord whiffs all his attacks, allowing the engineer to survive a turn.

New turn, still no High Elves. Cannon shoots at a unit of Clanrats, getting a lovely hit and killing like 4 of them. Both Mortars target the Screaming Bell unit and deviate around all crazy, killing only a few clanrats and a couple of zombies. Halbediers charge into the Wight Lord, nicely blocking LOS from the Hellblaster to any of my guys... Although they tie the fight, Musician = 1 wound to Lord. Oh and, he shoots the hell outta my Night Runners who start to leg it...

I turn all my units around to face the potential arrival of the elves. The player is scared of the Ethereal units bogging him down... Going to cast Plague again I not only miscast but choke on the Warpstone Chunk I used! Luckily it only ends the magic phase early. WLC moves up a bit, Jezzails move up a bit, Ratling gun is finally able to fire and pegs like 4 Handgunners. Bell makes its unit have Hatred. The Bats finally move into position to charge all of the remaining artillery. Grave Guard man the ladders and fight their way onto the Rampart!

High Elves show up! Yay! As guessed they come in on my side, charging into everything. Silver Helms to Slaves, Spearelves to Clanrats, and Silver Helms to Stormvermin. Swordmen charge the Night Runners and they run off the board.

Hellblaster shoots at some bats, but they're far away and only one dies. Mortars again target the bell but are unable to get the hole over it as it keeps moving. Another 3 clanrats die. Handgunners on my wall turn and fire at my clarats in the courtyard, killing like 2.
Halbediers manage to kill the vampire general, starting the great crumbling. And like 50% of the VC army disappears like that! Silverhelms completely paste my slaves and overrun like 8" forward, right in front of the WLC and 2 Ratling Guns.... The other combats are dealocked, except that my Stormvermin weather the blows by his other Silverhelms and manage to run them off the board! Yay for Banner of the Swarm! [It is worth noting that one of his Spear units had 16 attacks, and only managed to kill 1 Clanrat. Ouch]

From this point forward I completely forget to ring the bell any more. Always remembering a phase too late... Undead crumble, but the Bats are able to charge the Mortars. Grave Guard finish off the Handgunners and prepare to hed down. Zombies stand in front of the halbediers. My clanrats move further into the castle and the bell is pushed over the rubble. I manage to cast Pestilent Breath on the handgunners manning the closer wall and they finally succumb. I cast Warplightning on the Halbediers, killing 5. WLC targets the SilverHelms, having to pass through 2 of my own clanrat regiments. But hey, we're Skaven. Naturally it's STR 2, doesn't hurt any of the elves and kills 2 clanrats. Sigh. Ratling Guns and Jezzails finish off the unit. Stormvermin had reformed to face the Swordmen of Hoethe, and the other 2 battles continue. My slaves (with BSB) break and run off, but my other clanrat unit wins combat and overruns into the mage (oh yes, his mage was utterly dispelled up to now anyways).

The castle is basically ours, but the halbediers charge into the Zombies and the Hellblaster gets a closer range shot at the Grave Guard. Toasting 8! Elven Spearmen maneuver to get a charge on something. Warrior Priests attempt at the big template o' doom is dispelled, and the Elven wiz is in combat. My expertly strained Stormvermin switch to their halberds, and though they lose 3 of their own to the elves, they still manage to dish out the pain and win combat, running them off the board (and following). My clanrats totally miss the mage, and he runs of the board, taking them with him. Halbediers really rip into the zombies.

Everything is basically motionless and the game is pretty much over at this point. My slaves (w/ BSB) rally and other units come back on the table, surrounding the last High Elf regiment, who on their next turn tries to charge a Ratling Gun, take 8 deaths and flees off the board. Not many elves died, most of them took off! I guess they didn't see the point dying for a human fort that was already basically lost.

When the game ended, the Empire had 4 Handgunners left. That is all. No High Elves. One decrepid unit of Zombies, a necromancer and some Grave Guard (and 2 single bats). I only lost 1 unit of slaves, a unit of Night Runners and half another unit of slaves. Oh and a WFT buried under the rubble. Ouch!

skavenguy13
17-11-2005, 22:55
Told ya the WLC was rather useless in this situation!:D Apart from that, good job!