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ncm3714
19-09-2008, 22:14
The point of this thread is to see what sort of balance discussion, brainstorming, and wish-listing we can come up with about the humble guardsman. Over the past 10 years or so the standard guardsman has gone from a unit which could take veteran skills, and detach heavy weapon squads and a handful of other things in 2nd, to a unit which is considered little more than cheap, spammable, str3 shots, cannon fodder, only taken because it is required in order to get the tanks and big guns on the field.

To me this is really a tragedy, and one which should be given a good hard look before the new codex comes out. Now the point here is to talk specifically about what can be done to make the standard guardsman, conscript, veteran squads, etc (ie: any unit listed as "guard infantry" in the current dex) more interesting (lets leave point costs out of it, for now, as the rumors hint at a reduction in points anyway), and I believe we should adhere to that topic very strictly, as every other facet of the guard codex has been beaten to death in balance discussions, wish lists, etc. I believe the basic guardsman deserves his own thread, and that is what I hope to see here in our discussion.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
19-09-2008, 22:17
The joy of Imperial Guard is being able to form mini-battle groups of guard squads to take on a task, giving a sense of epicness, glory and scale. To that end I think the abilities of guardsmen are fine, the army list just needs to be rebalanced so that you can take more IG squads in addition to the necessary support units.

Guardsmen on their own shouldn't win very often, but a sensible combined arms force should stand a good chance and not hampered by illogical pts costs.

I think for 60 pts an infantry squad should get a free vox caster, frag grenades and flamer/grenade launcher. And then a complete rethink of the price of Chimeras, sentinels, advisors etc.

Splagbot
19-09-2008, 22:26
I agree with Triple S, the problem isn't that the ablities are lacking but the cost of the basic Guardsman is too high in my opinion, when you break it down you're paying 6pts for each Guardsman and I don't feel you're getting 6pts of trooper, however that said I would be rather happy where Iron Discipline made a standard skill for officers, though I wouldn't get any use from Close Order Drill as I can't imagine my Cadian's lining up in formation on the battlefield.

Ranger S2H
19-09-2008, 22:26
I would give them sharpshooters, which represents the reliability of their lasguns
if other weapons roll a 1 to hit, you could say that their weapon jams, they need to reload etc.
the lasgun doesnt have these problems, which means it can fire when other weapons would jam.
it should be balanced, in the end its still a str4 shot

skuller
19-09-2008, 22:31
Will start with something as simple as to have the ability to be able to change for free their lasgun for combat shotgun, laspistol autopistol and ccw. Gave you more options depending on the situation. probably the option to be abel to take grenade launchers/sniper rifles for the whole squad for like 2/5 repesctively
Veterans as a troop choice with the same restriction to armored fist or conscript squads (you need to have one platoon to be able to field them)
Add either 1 speacial weapon squad, anti tank squad or support squad for each platoon instead for the HQ

Doctor Thunder
19-09-2008, 22:40
The problem right now is that a guardsman is severely overcosted for what it can do.

If you run the math, it takes 7 guardsman to have an even matchup against one marine (Meaning that both the marine and the 7 guardsmen have the same chances of winning. 50% chance that the marine will die before he finishes off the guardsmen, and 50% chance that the marine will kill all 7 guardsmen before they kill him).

The problem is that one marine is 15 points and 7 guardsman are 42 points. That means, for every marine my opponent takes, he is essentially getting a 27 point handicap against me. When I field a standard 1500 point IG army, he is basically getting 2500 points, as far as battlefield effectiveness is concerned.

(Note that this is just with shooting. In HTH is gets even worse for the guard, since the marine can kill only one guardsmen and make them fail their leadership and wipe out the whole squad without actually having to kill each and every one, while ATSKNF prevents this from happening to the marines.)


Before you do anything to jazz up guard, you have to first price them correctly, which would be 4 points each.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
19-09-2008, 22:48
4 pts assuming you only ever fight against bolter marines on open battlefield with no other supporting units. I think that's a bit overboard, although I agree they are overcosted.

This is inline with what I think a guard squad should cost, keeping in mind i think lots of other guard units should be rebalanced too.

Infantry Squad - 60 Pts
WS BS S T I A LD SV
Sergeant 3 3 3 3 3 2 7 5+
Guardsman 3 3 3 3 3 1 7 5+
Consists of one sergeant and nine guardsmen. Equipped with lasguns, close combat weapons, frag grenades and flak armour. One guardsmen armed with a lasgun may have a vox caster.

-The sergeant may replace his lasgun with a laspistol or shotgun for free, a bolt pistol or bolter or plasma pistol for 10 pts.
-One model may have a grenade launcher or flamer for free, a meltagun for 5 pts or a plasma gun for 10 pts.
-One model may have a heavy bolter or missile launcher for 10 pts, an autocannon for 15 pts or a lascannon for 25 pts.

Notes:
*The sergeant's leadership bonus is gone and replaced by a free vox caster to reinforce the leadership of the officers. Gets the attack bonus for free (why pay for an extra str 3 attack?).
*The bolt pistol/bolter is priced up somewhat so that not every sergeant in the galaxy carries a bolter as a result of free sergeants.
*Player encouraged to take cheaper wargear.

Angelus Mortis
19-09-2008, 22:56
I think making the Lasgun a R 30", S3 AP- Rapid Fire and dropping the cost of the Guardsman to 5 pts. That would make them perfect IMHO. Sure, at first glance 30" range sounds overboard, but remember, its just a 30" range flashlight. Should make them just slightly better in ranged combat than before.

Hicks
19-09-2008, 22:57
We already have close order drill pretty much for free and with the new rules I think it would become a problem to have the ability active at all times.

I remember that someone here had proposed a number of new drills that could be used if near a lieutenant and I have to say that's really the direction I'd like the IG troops to take. I can't find that post unfortunatly.

Doctor Thunder
19-09-2008, 23:03
4 pts assuming you only ever fight against bolter marines on open battlefield with no other supporting units. I think that's a bit overboard, although I agree they are overcosted.
Points are supposed to represent how effective the model is on the tabletop. You do not make a guardsman cost more because the squad might take a heavy weapon, you charge the appropriate amount extra for the heavy weapon. You don't make a guardsman cost more because the army might also include a tank, you charge the appropriate number of points for the tank.

Bloodknight
19-09-2008, 23:07
bolt pistol or bolter or plasma pistol for 10 pts

Bolt pistol 10 points? That's steep - who in his right mind would buy that?
The Autocannon is overpriced in your example - it should not cost more than the missile launcher, and the lascannon is ridiculous, too (it's been so since the current codex was new). I wonder what the Frags are supposed to do with Guardsmen. The only guys slower than IG are Orks which you don't want to assault, and Tau who will kill you before you assault, and steal your charge attack due to defensive grenades.

Note that I really don't want to see defensive grenades on Guardsmen. If the enemy fails to kill enough, they might hold, and that sucks horribly for us. IG should not have defensive upgrades in CC, unless they are so much defensive that they can win in CC. Else they become a liability and probably deadly for their army with dying at the wrong moment all the time.

Templar Ben
19-09-2008, 23:11
If you think it is inappropriate to compare to Space Marines (which is the most common army) then how about a comparision to 6 point orks?

RCgothic
19-09-2008, 23:15
I like the idea of drills can be used near an officer. I also think a squad should be reduced in cost. Guardsmen should go something like:


W B S T I A W Ld Sv 50pts.
Sergeant 3 3 3 3 3 2 1 7 5+
Guardsman 3 3 3 3 3 1 1 7 5+

Squad: 1 Sgt and 9 Guardsmen.
Equipment: Lasguns, Flak Armour. 1 Guardsman has a vox caster.
Options:
2 Guardsmen may replace his/her lasgun with a special weapon from the following list: heavy stubber, grenade launcher or flamer for free, a meltagun at +5pts or a plasmagun at +10pts.
1 Guardsman with a special weapon may replace it with a heavy bolter or mortar for free, an Autocannon or Missile Launcher for +10pts, or a Lascannon for +15pts.

Special Rules:
Vox Caster: Any Squad with a vox caster may use the leadership of an officer with a master-vox.
Iron Discipline: Any Squad with a model within 6" of an officer may use the officer's unmodified leadership and may attempt to rally even if under half strength.
Platoon Drills: Any Squad with a model within 6" of an officer may use one of the following drills per player turn:
Fire on my mark!: Lasguns have range 30".
Open Fire!: Any lasguns scoring a 1 to hit may be re-rolled.
Fix Bayonets!: Models armed with lasguns gain +1 Initiative in the first round of combat when assaulted.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
19-09-2008, 23:18
On second thought I agree with you guys on a lot of points and as I said I think guardsmen are overpriced. The cost of the squads equipment can be shifted around but I imagine a vox caster, grenade launcher and heavy bolter squad costing about 70 pts, keeping in mind this goes hand in hand with army-wide price cuts across the board.

Hammerhelden
19-09-2008, 23:20
I'd just like to see guardsmen go back to the 3 per marine a la 2nd edition. With the rules changes you got from 2nd to 3rd a marine became far far better and guardsmen far far worse. I guess I'm mostly complaining about how the whole you outright get an armour save or outright do not thing went down. Drop guardsmen to 5 points a pop, and give them frag grenades etc for free imo. Oh and make Lasguns AP6, because even though it doesn't seem high, it gives them a decent edge against nids and orks.

Badger[Fr]
19-09-2008, 23:39
The cost of the squads equipment can be shifted around but I imagine a vox caster, grenade launcher and heavy bolter squad costing about 70 pts
That's still overcosted IMHO, considering how useless options such as Vox Casters or Frag grenades actually are. I don't want to pay for options that I have no use for. Give me a naked, 10-man squad for 40 points, then let me choose what upgrades I want to buy.

Bunnahabhain
20-09-2008, 00:08
Basic guardsmen are interesting, but you need lots of them for this to be true.

If you can concentrate fire from a platoon to wipe out an important target, leapfrog some squads forward to the objective, whilst sitting other still to increase firepower, and generally use something a little closer to real tactics, then that's interesting. Maybe even having the option to fit out a squad or two for assualt- in Guard terms, that's shotguns, and two special weapons in the squad.

Of course, you can't do all of this if the guardsmen themselves are overcosted, so you don't have enough of them.

All equipment should be optional, and properly costed*, so you can build squads how you want them ,without being forced to take abilities or equipment you don't want or need.

* lascannons 20pts, plasma guns 10pts. Without BS 4 or power armour, they are not worth the silly prices some people are suggesting.

Bloodknight
20-09-2008, 00:18
Of course, you can't do all of this if the guardsmen themselves are overcosted, so you don't have enough of them.

That's the whole problem. You cannot pull off interesting tactics with Guardsmen because you just don't get enough for the points. Leap frogging sounds nice in theory until you see that all of these guys basically need to shoot all the time to do their job.

When I construct a list, I always strive to get at least 70 guardsmen together with my support units, and then end up with 50.

@ncm3714: having played IG in 2nd, I know what you mean. The veteran skills used to be very interesting, but GW seems to go away from that concept. I liked boobytrapping terrain, running and shooting, firing heavy weapons another time if the first shot hit and so on. I also liked preliminary bombardment, actual artillery strikes called in by vox, and splitting off HW teams. But I doubt we'll see anything of this ever again.
Thus I'd just love to be able to field more guardsmen.
HS, FA and Elites slots are full quickly with the IG, it's the horde aspect the army is lacking, especially in higher points when all you can buy is more guardsmen. It's not that Guardsmen are bad, but they are bad enough to get overlooked. I can't really remember the last time I didn't take the grenadiers doctrine to save points in troops - and grenadiers are pretty badly priced, too.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
20-09-2008, 00:18
Fair enough, a pts cost debate won't achieve anything useful right now, except reach the broad consensus that they need to cost less.

I agree about the platoons thing, it's what makes IG the IG. It's why that, when marine captains are waving their swords about, the IG HQ choices look like generals contemplating the bigger picture. It's fun to control several mini "battle groups" at once and the sense of scale is what adds interest to the army, even if the units themselves are bland in gameplay terms. Which is why cost is the crucial issue of the army really. That said I've no objection to adding some spice to IG units.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
20-09-2008, 00:39
The idea of tying a platoon special rule to the officer is interesting, to represent both the importance of the officer directing the platoons behaviour and then the loss of efficiency if he dies.

I'm thinking:
senior officer = Army level doctrines ----> junior officer = platoon drill ability ---> guardsmen

The doctrines might be something like mechanized or drop troops, basically something irreversible that effects the whole army. And then drills which would give unique bonuses to platoons and rely on their officer for the bonus.

Octavius_Maximus
20-09-2008, 01:13
Infantry Platoon:

An Infantry Platoon comes with 1 Command squad, between 2-5 Infantry squads and may take up to 1 Veteran squad.

If one squad in the platoon takes a Chimera, all must take one.

Command Squad
Name Ws Bs S T W In At Ld Sv
Guardsmen 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7 5+
Junior Officer 3 3 3 3 1 3 2 8 5+
Senior Officer 4 4 3 3 2 4 3 8 5+
Unit: 4 Guardsmen and a Junior Officer
Weapons: Lasguns, Frag grenades, Laspistol
Points: 30

Options:
May take up to 3 weapons from the following list: Flamer- 5, , Heavy Stubber- 5, Meltagun- 10, Grenade launcher- 10, sniper rifle- 10, Plasma gun- 15

May take up to one weapon from the following list: Flamer- 5, Meltagun- 10, Grenade launcher- 10, Sniper Rifle- 10, Plasma gun- 15, Heavy Stubber- 5, Heavy Bolter- 10, Twin Linked Heavy Stubber- 10, Multilaser- 10, Heavy Flamer- 10, Autocannon- 15, Missile Launcher- 15, Lascannon- 25

Junior Officer may take a Power weapon for +5 points or a Power fist at +10 points

The Junior Officer may upgrade to a Senior Officer for +20 points. He gains the better statline, a second Officer Doctrine option and he becomes an Independent character (Although he cannot leave his Command squad unless it is destroyed)

One model may take a Vox at +5 points. One model may take a Platoon Standard at +15 points.

May take Krak grenades at +5 points for the unit.

May take up to 2 Doctrines from the following list for the points indicated:

Close Order drill- 0
Warrior weapons- 0
Hardened Fighters- 5
Chem Inhalers- 5
Infiltrate- 10
Sharpshooters- 5
Stealth- 10
Carapace armour- 10
Drop Troops- 15
Holy warriors- 10 (furious Charge, Only allowed if a priest is in the army)
Cybernetic Enhancement- 15 (5+ Invulnerable, Only allowed if Techpriest is in the army)

Officers Doctrines:

A Junior Officer may take one of the following Doctrines, a Senior Officer is allowed 2.

Under me!: all squads may use the Officers Leadership for all Morale, Pinning and Rally Checks within 12”

On my Command- 10: All Shooting within 6” of the Officer firing at a target under 6” away from the firer is done at +1 Strength

This could be useful- 15: A single unit within 6” may fire into close combat, all non blast and template weapons rolling a dice to allocate hits, 1-3 on the guardsmen, 4-6 on their foe.

Holding Fire- ; A Single unit within 6” may go to ground and still fire this turn. All its fire in the shooting phase causes pinning

Strafing Fire- : A Single unit within 6” may still fire its weapons after Running

Hidden Deployment- : The Officer and all units within 6” may choose to redeploy after deployment but before the first turn starts.

Aggressive Deployment- : The Officer and all units within 6” may take a free movement before the first turn, using the rules for the ‘Scout’ special rule.




Infantry squad

Name Ws Bs S T W In At Ld Sv
Guardsmen 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7 5+
Unit: 10 Guardsmen
Weapons: Lasguns, Frag grenades, Laspistol
Points: 50

Options:
May take up to one weapon from the following list: Flamer- 5, Meltagun- 10, Grenade launcher- 10, Sniper Rifle- 10, Plasma gun- 15

May take up to one weapon from the following list: Flamer- 5, Meltagun- 10, Grenade launcher- 10, Sniper Rifle- 10, Plasma gun- 15, Heavy Stubber- 5, Heavy Bolter- 10, Multilaser- 10, Heavy Flamer- 10, Autocannon- 15, Missile Launcher- 15, Lascannon- 25

One model may take a Vox at +5 points.

May take Krak grenades at +5 points for the unit.

May take up to 2 Doctrines from the following list for the points indicated:

Close Order drill- 0
Warrior weapons- 0
Hardened Fighters- 5
Chem Inhalers- 5
Infiltrate- 10
Sharpshooters- 10
Stealth- 15
Carapace armour- 15
Drop Troops- 15
Holy warriors- 10 (furious Charge, Only allowed if a priest is in the army)
Cybernetic Enhancement- 15 (5+ Invulnerable, Only allowed if Techpriest is in the army)


Veteran Squad

Name Ws Bs S T W In At Ld Sv
Veteran 3 4 3 3 1 3 1 8 5+
Unit: 10 Veterans
weapons: Lasgun, Laspistol, Close Combat Weapon, Frag and Krak grenades
Points: 70
Options:

Any Veteran may replace his Lasgun for a Shotgun at +1 point per model

Up to 3 Veterans may replace their Lasgun with a weapon from the following list: Flamer- 5, Meltagun- 10, Grenade launcher- 10, Plasma gun- 15

A Single Veteran may replace their Lasgun with a weapon from the following list Flamer- 5, Meltagun- 10, Grenade launcher- 10, Sniper Rifle- 10, Plasma gun- 15, Heavy Stubber- 5, Heavy Bolter- 10, Multilaser- 10, Heavy Flamer- 10, Autocannon- 15, Missile Launcher- 15, Lascannon- 25

Up to 3 Veterans may replace their close Combat weapon with a weapon from the following list: Power weapon- 5, Power fist- 10

Up to 2 Veterans may replace their Laspistol with Plasma Pistols at +15 points each

The unit may take up to 2 Doctrines from the following list for the points indicated:

Close Order drill- 0
Warrior weapons- 0
Hardened Fighters- 5
Chem Inhalers- 5
Stealth- 15
Carapace armour- 15
Drop Troops- 15
Holy warriors- 10 (furious Charge, Only allowed if a priest is in the army)
Cybernetic Enhancement- 15 (5+ Invulnerable, Only allowed if Techpriest is in the army)

Special Rules:

Infiltrate, Hit and Run

Chimera Infantry Fighting Vehicle

Name Bs Front Side Rear
Chimera 3 12 11 10
Type: Tank
Weapons: Hull Twin Linked heavy Stubber, Turret Mounted Heavy Stubber
Points: 40

The Turret mounted Heavy stubber may be upgraded to one of the following weapons:

Twin linked Heavy stubber- 5
Heavy Bolter- 5
Heavy Flamer- 5
Multilaser- 5
Quad Linked Heavy stubber- 10
Twin Linked Heavy Bolter- 10
Twin Linked Heavy Flamer- 10
Autocannon- 10
Missile Launcher- 10
Lascannon- 15
Twin Linked Multilaser- 15
Twin Linked Autocannon- 20
Twin Linked Missile launcher- 20
Twin Linked Lascannon- 30
Quad linked Autocannon- 30

Hull Twin Linked Heavy stubber may upgrade to a Heavy bolter or a heavy flamer for free.


Special Rules:

In addition to the hull mounted Lasguns, the Chimera is filled with many little firing ports and other small places a savvy soldier could use a gun.

Any Imperial Guard squad embarked within a Chimera may count it as Open topped for firing purposes, it remains like this until the next Guard turn


Thats my idea for the Infantry Platoon, and i think its quite good.

Once you start adding these ideas around the rest of the army (check the Rules Development section soon to see the complete army)

Splagbot
20-09-2008, 01:18
Apart from the point deduction which I think we can all be agreed would be a good thing I reckon making the Imperial Guard officers more effective and having a greater effect on the troops under them would be desirable, my preference would be to see the Iron Discipline doctrine utilised in the next codex as it's a very characterful skill and doesn't provide the Guard with too much of an advantage, it should come as standard with IG senior and heroic senior officers I reckon.

I reckon this is all a moot point though to be honest, I can't see to many special rules being added to the next codex and reckon the most we can hope for is a points reduction.

Col. Tartleton
20-09-2008, 02:55
Or we could entirely reshape what a guardsman is.

Lets think about it.

An imperial guardsman should be on paper a modern infantry soldier. I know you all luv the Vostroyans and the Praetorians and the Mordians. But too bad, they aren't bread and butter guard, they're collector models. So we have to remember that a guardsman is a competent human being, a soldier serving in the harshest war zones imaginable and surviving. An Imperial guardsman is at the very least as good in fluff (the kind that portrays guard as soldiers instead of meat) as any soldier serving in the current NATO armies. They're as good, not as advanced necessarily, but neither are most terrorists, and they put up a hard fight.

Now I think that the current stat line (except the leadership) is fine for that, its what a human should be, and i respect it. However, the handling of the way they function is wrong. A guardsman is a marine.

People may shout "NO THEY'RE WORLD WAR ONE TROOPERS!" but thats simply not the case. Certain regiments fight that way, these are as rooted in traditions as the aforementioned Napoleonic forces. You have to remember that it is the future, and despite as backwards as the Imperium is, the guard are still soldiers.

Cadians are the norm, so for each regiment that marches and plays bugles there should be one that has more in common with starship troopers [Elysians *cough* like the movie version at least] or Starfist which would be better shown currently with Tau.

So if thats the case, then we need to upgrade the style of the guard. I love how cadians look although the models suffer GW scaling... So I think the guard need a remake rules wise.

I think that chameleons should be standard issue. Now this can be literal cloaking devices, or it can be adaption to fighting in a certain environ. The guard usually catering to the latter, but camo is common enough to warrant it anyway. combine with 5th edition that alone makes them quite a bit more deadly. So 6 points a model with Camo as is is reasonable. Free grenades and voxes for squads and Officers having Iron discipline (and units being able to fire through each other) certainly makes a guardsman as good or better than mr. dakka choppa boy.

Doctor Thunder
20-09-2008, 03:42
Am I the only one who would like to see the little platoon command squads eliminated all together? I mean, those little command squads are what cause most of the problems with kill points and such in 5th edition. Why not just have the first squad in each platoon lead by the officer instead of a sergeant, or, even better, eliminate platoons and just let guard take as many troop choices as they want without restriction.

Col. Tartleton
20-09-2008, 03:54
I prefer making it a 10 man that combat squads with a sergeant and an officer (1 in each.)

That way its a bit more like a real 30 odd man platoon and allows the flexibilty of having the command and remnant squad.

Shield of Freedom
20-09-2008, 04:27
I feel the same about the "Modern Soldier" concept. I've seen the new Space Marine codex and the idea of chapter traits being applied based on what character you took is kinda' neat.

Picking certain types of commanders should dictate your army type:

Airborne commander - All "infantry" units can deep strike. All units ignore modifiers to leadership tests (includes losing in assault). Any number of squads can be upgraded to Veterans (+1 BS, +1 LD, that's it). Storm Trooper squads do not take up Elite slots.

Light Infantry Commander - All "infantry" units have "move through cover." All infantry squads may purchase a second special weapon if no heavy weapon is purchased. Preliminary bombardment- before the game starts, after deployment and the "sieze the initiative roll" the Imperial Guard player may place D3 S9 AP3 Large templates as though they were fired indirectly. Targets can be chosen as normal following the shooting rules.

Mechanized commander - All infantry squads must purchase a Chimera transport. Prelimnary Bombardment. Exploit the Breach! (Infantry squads may assault after dismbarking from a Chimera that moved durring the movement phase. {not quite done brainstorming this one}

Armored commander - HQ is one Leman Russ tank with BS4. Standard Leman Russ tank squadrons may be taken as Troops choices. Infantry Platoons are Heavy Support. {not quite done brainstorming this one either}

In a nutshell, I'm saying that no one's idea of the Imperial Guard is the right and only one. Some are conscripted meat waves. Others are elite trained fighting men with superior training. Yet other formations focus on armor with infantry support instead of the other way around.

Just like the Space Marine codex we can name the special characters after famous ones from specific regiments, like Al' Razeem, or Usakar Creed. However, taking that character doesn't mean you're playing that regiment, only using one that plays like that regiment.

I specifically left out points values, like what does it cost to upgrade to veterans? etc.

RexTalon
20-09-2008, 06:17
The joy of Imperial Guard is being able to form mini-battle groups of guard squads to take on a task, giving a sense of epicness, glory and scale. To that end I think the abilities of guardsmen are fine, the army list just needs to be rebalanced so that you can take more IG squads in addition to the necessary support units.

Guardsmen on their own shouldn't win very often, but a sensible combined arms force should stand a good chance and not hampered by illogical pts costs.

I think for 60 pts an infantry squad should get a free vox caster, frag grenades and flamer/grenade launcher. And then a complete rethink of the price of Chimeras, sentinels, advisors etc.

This comment wins. I agree completely.

Inq. Veltane
20-09-2008, 08:23
I lent a friend my Guard Infantry Company last night and played him with my new (work in progress) Eldar army. I've not really used my Guard for quite a long time and now I remember why. 1,000pts Seize and Control on a 4x4 board with Spearhead Deploment. Not only was it fun trying to squeeze the 81 Infantrymen (plus a Grenadier Squad in Chimera) in such a small area (even with two squads of Light Infantry deploying in an adjacent section) but once the game started the Guardsmen were pretty much incapable of killing anything. In the entire game they killed one Dark Reaper and one Dire Avenger (Yes, due to models availlable I was using a 160pt Dark Reaper squad against Guard...so its not like it was an especially anti-GEQ list). Two kills all game... The Guard player was unlucky that I took out his Chimera in the first turn and then scored a plasma missile in the face of his Grenadiers but other than that the Guard just looked constantly outclassed. They had the option of either holding a quite poor position to fire off a couple of shots, or moving and sacrificing what little cover they had. They were played especially badly but for a list which was supposed to be designed around the Infantry Company (I remember the original release design notes...) the Infantry Company just can't survive, except perhaps on a table that has been especially fortified for them.

Anyway, other than to rant what was the point of that? I'm not sure. I like my Guard units relatively cheap, I certainly don't want to load up my Guardsmen with Carapace etc. But having so many infantry units isn't necessarily a good thing. I suppose the solution is to lower the cost of the core infantry so that there is more space for support units but... I'd still prefer Infantry remained the heart of the army. How much do they need to be reduced to be effective? I'm not sure, I'd probably lean towards 55pts base, with the cost of weapons reduced as well (so a squad with GL, ML, Vet is coming out at around 70pts). I don't know if the Veteran Upgrade should be free or not (it would reduce dependency on Officers, which may be a bad thing) but it probably should be. Allow a second special weapon if you don't take a heavy weapon, give Close Order Drill for free (but its only really going to be used when you charge, and it would probably need an exception to the normal movement during assault rules to allow unegaged models to form Close Order Drill rather than just rushing the enemy. And to charge in COD too). I suppose that would be quite a cool, but not especially useful special rule. Iron Discipline for free on officers would go some way towards addressing that absurdity of over pricing but you'd probably still want to reduce them to 35pts and maybe come up with some new special rule too, although I'm not really sure what.

Detaching heavy weapons wouldn't really work in 5E but once again thats an area that needs to be sorted in terms of cost.

To be honest I think the biggest issue for me would be sorting out Veteran and Storm Trooper units. They need to be scoring units and if they were then you'd find Guard's mobility would improve a decent amount. I'd be tempted to move Veteran Squads into the Infantry Platoon (one per platoon, rather than 0-1) but doing that would leave the Elite section of the army list rather light (especially if you retained Grenadiers). Is that necessarily a problem? I suppose its a question of design philosophy, GW probably wants every Codex to have some viable choices in each slot. All the time the Elites slots are simply slightly better Troops, but which can't claim objectives, they are going to be pretty weak options though.

I think I've written a lot, but pretty much failed to make the Guardsman more interesting. A few tweaks to make the unit more effective (and reducing the cost of Heavy Weapons means that you do have the option of moving squads a bit more) and the suggestion of a couple of minor special rules... but really... what can you do to make the Guardman 'interesting'? You don't want lots of special rules, you just want the army to be able to be reasonably mobile so that your tactics involve more than deployment and target selection. Oh, and while I like the idea of letting Guard swap their lasguns for shotguns, etc., I'd probably prefer to limit those options to HQs and Veterans (who would be a staple in my redesigned list).

clanfield
20-09-2008, 08:53
i find there are a few things i never use the biggest is fast attack slots ...i never have the points and therefor never purcahe them i have sentinals but always give em to the command platoon

i never use heavy wepon platoons too dam expensive to purchase and lets face it platoon or russ hmm hard one ...not

id love to see detachable heavy wepons and a second hq option ..comisar lord or tech mech chap
the idea of the commander giveing battalion rules is nice and simple as well i also belive the old gorgon and russ variants should come back to play ..i know about forge world but to be honest the cost and the number of rule books required to carry around deter me
as to charicter for the guard sure thats a world / regiment by world /regiment thing
i like traits for this reason not for the power play angles

march10k
20-09-2008, 08:54
I think it depends on what you want for your points. I, for example, think that 75 points for a (bs3) autocannon with ten wounds that retains scoring status down to the last wound isn't insanely overpriced. OTOH, pack on a couple points-per-model docrines, a special weapon, and a pimped out veteran sergeant, and you end up paying 150 points a squad...and that is overpriced. Guardsmen are so much more than flashlight spam, but you have to be very careful about how you kit them out. Make sure that they're designed for a specific purpose. You can't afford to spend a ton of points on expensive stuff if they're going to be "take all comers" units. If that's the point, then keep the points down. I played against a guy recently who was paying almost space marine points for his infantry...but they had a 3+ cover save, a mix of autocannons, lascannons, and grenade launchers, and if/when you charged them, they got 2 S3/WS4/I4 attacks per model! That was beastly...guardsmen who could stand toe to toe with terminators, as long as they had a 3-1 numerical advantage.


1,000pts Seize and Control on a 4x4 board with Spearhead Deploment. the Guard just looked constantly outclassed. They had the option of either holding a quite poor position to fire off a couple of shots, or moving and sacrificing what little cover they had. They were played especially badly

Gee, they lost? No kidding...they had everything going against them. Small board doesn't benefit a shooty army. Seize and control doesn't benefit an army with only one unit that moves more than 6" a turn (not to mention that that single chimera was blown up on turn one). It sounds like "what little cover they had" equates to "not enough terrain on the board". Obviously, the dice gods were against them (Two kills? Really?) And a rookie general playing against the army's owner/designer, to boot. Not to mention that, for whatever reason, you elected to stay as far away as possible from more vehicles when you designed the army. I'm shocked that they didn't table your eldar in three turns flat :rolleyes: This game was hardly typical of IG performance in 5th edition.

clanfield
20-09-2008, 09:04
my cadian company is split into 3 infantry platoons

2nd platoon
gives cover
cmd sqd 2x gl 1 lt pswd
3 sqds gl mortar
3rd platoon
ceases objective
cmd sqd 2 x fl vox lt pswd refac
1 sqd vox fl
2 sqds vox melta

my comand platoon "1st"

has the company heavy wepons and the co is my counter assult unit
cmd sqd major pwer swd refac ,master vox,medic
1 mortar team 1 sniper team 1antitank team (ml) 1 sentinal
usally a comisar and a psyker
i uassaly suport this with a mix of bassalisk russ or demolisher depending on the points avaliable

ehlijen
20-09-2008, 09:15
The reason guardsmen cost as much as they do is to create a certain minimum cost to bring a heavy weapon. Make guardsmen cost too little and the overhead for heavies drops so much that you can bring too many too easily damning the game to a gunline matchup. Cover doesn't matter if you can shoot everywhere with at least two guns because you have so many!

Obvious solution: increase the cost of the heavies and not the guardsmen. That's not going to work to a point much further than where they're already at: people will just eschew the heavies and bring more tanks, all the while complaining about the uselessness of guardsmen.


My suggestion would be:
The cost for squads and heavies stays the same, but you get more men per squad. 12? 15? It' take away the 'holy 10' though...

Lord Damocles
20-09-2008, 09:25
I wouldn't alter the cost of the basic guard squad. As march10k noted in his post, a bog-standard squad is a pretty good deal as is. What I would change however is the way support units work in relation to the infantry squads.

I'd have each platoon made up of the command section and 2-5 infantry squads (exactly as they are now then...), but I'd also allow individual platoons to take 'support units' which are purchased as part of the platoon (make the number of support units dependant on the number of infantry squads taken?)

Support units would be fire support, mortar and/or anti-tank squads, assault squads, and advisors. All of these would see a drop in points/change in abilities to make them worthwile choices, and would be able to purchase doctrines on a platoon rater than a squad level.


Drops 2 cents in bucket on the way out.

totgeboren
20-09-2008, 09:32
I think the cost of a fully equipped squad of guards needs to drop around 10-15 pts.

Really, that only nets you about 2 extra squads or 1 extra vehicle in a 1500 pts battle, and i dont think guards need more to be on-par with their opposition.

I also think the cost for heavy weapons should at a minimum stay the same. I would prefer if they upped them by 5-10 pts, so a lascannon should cost +30-35 pts for example.

Nowdays, a guardsman squad with a lascannon and say a meltagun (+ sarge) costs about 100 pts.

I would like that squad to cost around 80-85 pts. If the lascannon costs +30, and the melta +10 pts, the squad should cost 40-45 with a sarge. I would like frags to be included in that cost, so they can assault enemy vehicles in desperate situations.

The reason for me wanting a higher pricetag on heavy weapons is because, well, noone ever takes guardsmen without heavy weapons. In my mind, a guardsman squad with a heavyweapon is worth about twice as much a a squad without one. Therefor, if guardsmen without heavy weapons are to be an attractive choice, the heavy weapon needs to cost almost as much as a squad with no heavy weapon.

Or, well, I use many guardsmen squads armed with only a flamer, combined with light infantry, and they really cost way to much compared to what they do.

But they are awesome. :)

Luna de hierro
20-09-2008, 09:44
The main problem for me is the point cost for heavy/special weapons in the imperial guard codex, example, a imperial guard squad with BS3 can buy a laser cannon for 25 points, a space marine with BS4 takes one for 15 points.

ehlijen
20-09-2008, 10:06
But (assuming 4th ed codex) the Guardsman pay 85 points for the lascannon+squad and the marines pay 90 and use up a full FO slot doing so. So as you see, IG already have an easier time spamming them and get twice as many bodies onto the field while doing so.

The heavies for IG can't become much cheaper or they will fall beneath the minimum overhead to bring a heavy weapon to the field.

T_55
20-09-2008, 10:08
My solution would be to drop their points cost.

5 points each.

Basic Infantry Squad:

50 points for a squad of 10, 1 Sergeant, free with frag grenades. Each guardsmen comes with a lasgun and a laspistol. Sergeant comes armed with a lasgun and a laspistol, the lasgun can be swapped with a close combat weapon or a shotgun for free.

Option for vox, and 1 special and 1 heavy weapon as they are now.

Options:
May choose 3 of the following, applied to the whole infantry platoon (apply whatever points cost you want, this is just an example of options).
Carapace Armor
SharpShooters
Warrior Weapons
etc...

Leave it at that. I don't want mandatory special abilities. I want a squad which i can tool to suit what i want for the fluff i've made up. I don't always want to have well drilled soldiers able to move in formations, i don't always want an army of sharp shooters either. There is simply to much variety in the universe of Warhammer 40K to ignore. Have your 'modern' troops, but forcing everyone else to take the option is daft.

I reckon this would make them a little bit better then they are now while still retaining their customisability which was always the 'interesting' or fun part for me.

march10k
20-09-2008, 10:31
I think it's a little unfluffy for every guardsman to have a laspistol...and I think the laspistol/ccw combo should be somewhat restricted. Not to mention you'd e giving them a huge points cut at the same time that you're buffing them significantly. I might as well ask for twelve point space marines.


I'd have each platoon made up of the command section and 2-5 infantry squads (exactly as they are now then...), but I'd also allow individual platoons to take 'support units' which are purchased as part of the platoon (make the number of support units dependant on the number of infantry squads taken?)

Support units would be fire support, mortar and/or anti-tank squads, assault squads, and advisors.

Now that is a fine idea. One specialist squad per platoon would be quite fluffy, IMHO.

One thing that's really bugged me is the heirarchy of attaching advisors. I think it would make more sense to be able to plug them in where needed. Seriously, who puts an advisor where he'll only have four meat shields, especially when those meat shields are better used carrying special weapons?

T_55
20-09-2008, 10:39
How am i buffing them though? Their not becoming more survivable, their not shooting any better, theres no fancy abilities, no special weapons. Everyone keeps wailing about 4pt guardsmen so i thought i'd go for a middle ground. Laspistols let them move shoot and possibly assault, another decent option, even though it is unfluffy. Frag grenades never saw much use anyway. Heavy and special weapons still cost the same in my suggestion and you still pay for a vox. What you might end up with is 10 more points to spend on other things per infantry squad compared to now, this certainly allows for more options but i don't think its game breaking.

Besides this is about what i think would make them more interesting.

MajorWesJanson
20-09-2008, 10:46
Hmm. Random small idea: Bayonnets. Wargear option, either as standard, or like 1-2 points a model for a squad. counts as defensive grenades. Makes far more sense than a Laspistol/CCW, and it is already modelled on a lot of the troops. I'd say forget Frag Grenades, they do little to help the squad in CC, and do this instead.

T_55
20-09-2008, 10:51
Thats a pretty neat idea Major.

march10k
20-09-2008, 10:51
How am i buffing them though?

Getting a shot off on the charge is a buff. It's essentially a free attack. Throw in the CCW instead of a lasgun, and you're getting four attacks on the charge.


even though it is unfluffy

QFT


Everyone keeps wailing about 4pt guardsmen

Of course they are. Everyone always wants more :cheese: for his own army and less for everyone else's. The only thing wrong with IG is two kill points per command squad.


i don't think its game breaking

I didn't say it was game-breaking. I said you were advocating a buff in combination with a 17% points cut.

T_55
20-09-2008, 11:02
Wow, 10 las pistols. Lets consider this, it takes 18 lasguns to kill a single space marine. I don't think 10 are going to do an aweful lot, they may not even get to strike first in combat. The CCW is restricted to the Sergeant incase that wasn't clear enough so unless you get warrior weapons which costs god knows how much its no where near as bad as you put it.

And so a 17% points cut isn't that bad then.

Though i've noticed you take alot of things to seriously March10k, as noted by your 'QFT' comment, ease up :p. While potentially unfluffy for many guardsmen armies i'm sure there are just as many exceptions which would arm their guardsmen with laspistols to a number of side arms.

Angelus Mortis
20-09-2008, 11:02
Hmm. Random small idea: Bayonnets. Wargear option, either as standard, or like 1-2 points a model for a squad. counts as defensive grenades. Makes far more sense than a Laspistol/CCW, and it is already modelled on a lot of the troops. I'd say forget Frag Grenades, they do little to help the squad in CC, and do this instead.

Problem is its not very fluffy, as the bayonet is an assault weapon not a defensive weapon. I prefer to stick with somewhat fluffy reasoning when explaining rules, adds to the flavor.

As for a rule for bayonets, it could be the equivilant of furious charge, and that would be pretty fluffy I would think. I wouldnt give everyone frag greandes standard as that would seriously affect general game balance. It basically would make the advantage of being assaulted while in cover pointless for no cost. You should have to pay at least a nominal fee for negating that bonus.

I still like my 30" range Lasguns.

RCgothic
20-09-2008, 11:32
4pts per guardsman is a fair cost at present. There's very little you can do to a guardsman with 3's across the board to make him more interesting. The interest has to come at squad and platoon level.

Irrespective of what happens to the infantry squad, these platoon skills would make the guardsman more interesting and just a touch more survivable.

PHQ: Lieutenant and 4 guardsman. Master Vox. 40pts. Officers not independant characters, but may join other units in the event their squad is wiped out. (no 2kps).

Officer special Rule: Infantry Squads from the same platoon within 12" may use his leadership unmodified by negative modifiers and rally even when under half strength if they wish.
Master Vox: Units from the same platoon with a vox may use the officer's leadership.
Platoons: Guardsmen are trained to fight in platoons, and so do not confer a 4+ invulnerable to an enemy when firing through a friendly unit from the same platoon.

Platoon Drills:
Infantry Squads from the same platoon as an officer within 12" may use one of the following drills per turn:
Covering Fire!: An Infantry squad shooting using this drill confers a 4+ invlunerable save against shooting attacks to another squad from the same platoon within 12" for the duration of the opponent's next turn..
Fire on my mark!: Lasguns have extended range. Lasgun R30 S3 AP- Rapid Fire.
Open Fire!: Lasguns may re-roll any 1s to hit.
Hold the Line!: Guardsmen fix bayonets to give themselves extra reach. +1S and +1I when assaulted for the first assault phase only.

This allows the platoon to make infantry squads more survivable or give lasguns a little extra effectiveness.

totgeboren
20-09-2008, 11:33
wow, sticking a knife to your rifle makes a guardsman almost as good as a space marine in close combat? atleast when he assaults. That sounds way over the top.

30" range lasguns does sound pretty nice. But I dunno, for one its really stepping on some Tau toes, and also it encourages IG to just stand and shoot.

I guess most guard players rarely face guards themselves, but playing against a guard gunline army really doesn't make for a fun game. Any changes in the guard codex should encourage more dynamic gameplay and make other options more viable than the old "stand-still-and-roll-dice" tactic.

Thats why I want cheaper guardsmen, but more costly heavy weapons. Gunline guards work, assaulting guards dont, thats why most play gunline. By shifting the cost of basic guards and their heavy weapons around abit, I think more tactics would become viable for the guard players, without resorting to abunch of ad-hoc special rules.

Promethius
20-09-2008, 11:37
I would like to see platoons become mini-armies. Veteran squads should move to the standard platoon as a 0-1 option and retain bs 4 but be limited to one heavy/one special or two special weapons; along with conscipts you then have a spectrum of experience/skills in the basic platoon. The veterans should have move through cover and cameoline to represent their ability to dig in/conceal themselves and be left at that.

As for the basic guardsmen, a cost of 55pts for squad with vox + flamer/grenade launcher is sensible. Following that the whole squad should have sharpshooters and iron discipline as standard. That would be sufficient to balance them out. Platoon level doctrines such as carapace/light infantry/drop troops/penal legion would be good as a way to create mini-armies which fulfil specialised roles, and would encourage leapfrogging units and such forth as people have hoped for. I think there's also a powerful argument for moving abhumans to the command platoon and using elites for stormtroopers, admech blokes and some of the old-school penal legion units like human bombs.

As for stormtroopers, it's about time the hellgun was upgraded and the unit as a whole became more efficient points wise. Allowing them to take/hold objectives would be quite fluffy.

The problem is that just reducing the cost of guardsmen results in our trying to cram more models onto the table, and too many improvements threatens to push guardsmen the other way. Currently though guardsmen are probably worth 4pts, without the overcosted special/heavy weapons.

As for making the guard more mobile, I think that penal legion troopers with shotguns/assault weapons and frenzon as specific assault units, combined with a re-costed chimera and improved storm troopers would provide a great deal more mobility.

RCgothic
20-09-2008, 11:37
people also play gunline because you can keep your guardsmen in cover.

Using platoon drills to give covering fire to exposed squads helps.

MajorWesJanson
20-09-2008, 11:38
True, a bayonett is more of an assault weapon. But I think that guard could benefit more from defensive grenades than a boost to charging into the enemy. And it does make sense that an enemy would have to be a bit more careful charging a squad that is using its rifles as pseudo-pikes.

Furious charge on guard seems a bit off colour. Orks I can see having it, but not guard.

Without Number seems sort of fluffy for guard, but would make kill points even worse.

Maybe some sort of suppressive fire. If you make so many lasgun hits, they take a pinning check.

I'd definately do like the Marines, and make grenade launchers, flamers, autocannons, and mortars free upgrades for the squad, with points to bump it up to the other special and heavies.

RCgothic
20-09-2008, 11:42
I like the idea of moving veterans to the platoons, although I'd be happy to have a completely veteran platoon (for a cost) rather than a 0-1 limit. Conscripts as a downgrade appeals as well. I think Armoured Fists should stay as a seperate unit entry though, even if entire platoons can be mechanised.

Moving Ratlings and Ogryns to the command platoon I support. That just leaves stormtroopers and tech-preists. I'd then move rough-riders into elites. that way they aren't competeing with sentinels, hellhounds and (fingers crossed) vultures, and keeps an even spread of units across FOC slots.

Chains and Glass
20-09-2008, 11:46
Ideas:

let the guardsmen move 3" in the move phases, shoot, then assault move 3", your basically JSJ with flashlights and their special, which is a-ok, its hardly making them faster (it should be an option, not THE only way to move btw) and i think its fluffy, i mean, firing around corners and ducking back behind cover? makes sense to me.

I loved the "shoot + run" option, i love the "vets in platoons" thing some people have mentioned, maybe veterans AS platoons?

Upgrades: stubber, flamer, grenade launcher (frags ignore cover? maybe ad an incendiary?.. oh and add smoke grenades to!), melta, plasma gun, power weapon (karnak skull takers methinks), sniper, medic (YES PLEASE), vox, heavy stubber, twin-linked stubber, heavy flamer, multi-melta, plasma cannon, assault cannon, missile launcher, autocannon, lascannon, heavy bolter, multi-laser, mortar(as a special please, where it belongs), heavy mortar.

Seargent weapons: plasma pistol, combi-weapons, storm bolter, eviscerator (that doesn't ignore armour, so basically just a str6 normal CCW, sounds "techno-barbarian" to me!

The ones that are obviously heavy weapons should be 0-1 per squad, but i think 0-2 for everything else sounds good...

Give them the option to take: Chaos icons, shotguns, autoguns (assault 1 24"? or heavy 2 24"?), 10 and under for squad sizes (this may affect heavy weapon allotments), give them the ability to take grenades (pffft... i wouldn't....) and as an upgrade, give them the laspistol... make people pay for it :D.

They need/ i want: Bayonets - +1 str if striking first in the first round of combat (so useless against banshees :P)

Commisars allow heavy weapon teams to fire into combat :D

Sergeants can take hounds (LaTD FTW!!), the ability to take a small 6 man centaur style jeep transport OR at the very least i want rhinos/ 40pt chims.

let 6 man squads ride on Russes!!!!! (any stun or shake instantly kills them :D)

give them a Dark eldar style trophy racks option on the sergeant (for the chaos kiddies out there) and i think Sanctioned psykers with Doom that only affects wounds caused by that unit(Farseer ability that forces opponents to re-roll armour saves, with a ld6-7 psyker it is probably just a bit of fun) as a "special weapon" upgrade could be cool.

Split the dex in two with one line:

The Guard player may choose to ally his regiment with one of two human empires:

Chaos: may take icons, 1 squad of daemon allies, daemonhosts, trophy racks, hounds, a close-combaty weapon option list and have slightly lower leadership

Order: may take medic, vox, allied inquisitors/ commisars, all the "quality trooper" upgrades like: sharpshooters and Iron discipline that you'd never see on LaTD.

Please, please, please make priests useful as well, take away agitation, add +1 LD, add range on officer LD range, if chaos it should allow sacrifices for daemons, if order it should allow you to force your opponent to re-roll to wound ONCE per game on each squad that has a priest (Emperor's intervention)

Oh, the ability to sacrifice a sergeant to spawn a bloodletter or plague bearer, just the minor daemons, is always an amazing thing.

Give us the ability to have "jump guard" as well as rough riders please :D

and finally...... MORE FLUFF IN THE BOOK!!!!!!! make them 20 pt guardsmen for all i care, but if every race can fluffily field humans as "sub-ordinates" or mercenaries, which is likely IMHO, then i'd be happy.

Oh: Kroot should be good friends with the guard. Naturally.

MajorWesJanson
20-09-2008, 12:06
Or replace advisors with attachable characters for squads:
Can add one per squad, making it size 11. (With an IC, that still fits in a chimaera I think)

Basic Squads can take:
Medic: 5+ FNP, Las pistol
Combat Engineer: +1 to cover saves, shotgun or lasgun
Commissar: Fearless, preferred enemy, las/bolt pistol, ccw/powerweapon/powerfist
Priest: Eviscerator, Fleet

Command squads can two specialists, from the above list or
Sanctioned Psyker: choosable psychic powers, las pistol
Standard Bearer: Counterattack for units in 12", lasgun or las pistol and ccw/power weapon

HQ squad can take up to three specialists, from the above or
Astropath: May reroll reserve rolls
Tactical Advisor: May count one objective at the start of the game to count as 2 objectives.

march10k
20-09-2008, 12:20
Wow, 10 las pistols. Lets consider this, it takes 18 lasguns to kill a single space marine. I don't think 10 are going to do an aweful lot, they may not even get to strike first in combat. The CCW is restricted to the Sergeant incase that wasn't clear enough so unless you get warrior weapons which costs god knows how much its no where near as bad as you put it.

And so a 17% points cut isn't that bad then.

Though i've noticed you take alot of things to seriously March10k, as noted by your 'QFT' comment, ease up :p. While potentially unfluffy for many guardsmen armies i'm sure there are just as many exceptions which would arm their guardsmen with laspistols to a number of side arms.


Hmm. You're right, I do tend to take things seriously of late. I guess that's partly in response to the incessant whining of people who play my other main army, dark angels. I guess I'm just tired of the "OMG, C:SM roxxorz too much! We need all their cool toys or we're screwed" talk. I think there are some things that need to be done to bring IG into 5th edition, but a points cut (for the basic guardsman, other elements of the list, such as the chimera, arguably need them, although I am perfectly content to field nine chimmies at their current cost) isn't one of them. I really think all we need are a few tweaks like dropping command squads to one kill point each and possibly pushing docrines down from the army list level to the platoon level.

Oh, and I do apologize for failing to accurately read your post. You did indeed specify that only the sergeant gets to take a club in place of his lasgun. I still think it's unfluffy, though not incredibly overpowered, for every guardsman to have a pistol.

Angelus Mortis
20-09-2008, 12:34
wow, sticking a knife to your rifle makes a guardsman almost as good as a space marine in close combat? atleast when he assaults. That sounds way over the top. Furious charge only works the turn you assault and only if you assault. A baynet extends a soldiers reach (hence the I boost) and makes for a pretty hefty spear (about a 9-10lb spear, hence the S boost). But is only really effective on a charge, otherwise its kind of clumsy so it makes sense for furious charge.


30" range lasguns does sound pretty nice. But I dunno, for one its really stepping on some Tau toes, and also it encourages IG to just stand and shoot. I dont think it steps on tau toes at all, since they dont own 30" range. Secondly, theres a huge difference between a pulse rifle and a lasgun. For one the lasgun is almost half its strength, and the pulse rifle ignores the guardsmans basic save while the lasgun doesnt ignore any saves. All the 30" range will do is give the Infantryman just a little more breathing room, perhaps an extra shooting phase before being assaulted or assaulting. One extra shooting phase of flashlights isnt going to be a game breaker. Besides, the IG is supposed to be a shooty list, not an assault list. Assault should be an option, but shooting should be more favored.


I guess most guard players rarely face guards themselves, but playing against a guard gunline army really doesn't make for a fun game. Any changes in the guard codex should encourage more dynamic gameplay and make other options more viable than the old "stand-still-and-roll-dice" tactic.

Which is why I think the furious charge for bayonets would be perfect. It would encourage a more maneuvarable game and the classic IG human wave charge. ( I say classic as in fluffy, not as in a well know game tactic).


Thats why I want cheaper guardsmen, but more costly heavy weapons. Gunline guards work, assaulting guards dont, thats why most play gunline. By shifting the cost of basic guards and their heavy weapons around abit, I think more tactics would become viable for the guard players, without resorting to abunch of ad-hoc special rules.

Well, I think were going to have to disagree here. I play DKoK Seige list and I can assure you, my main weapon is the bayonet. Sure I soften up with arty and heavies, but the guy who finishes them off is the Infantry man. I find if I try and stand and shoot it will always fail against even an average opponent. A skilled opponent will not only win, but he will make it embarassing. I'm with you on cheaper guardsman though, but no cheaper than 5 pts. Less would be a serious imbalance.

Bunnahabhain
20-09-2008, 12:50
I think the cost of a fully equipped squad of guards needs to drop around 10-15 pts.
......
I also think the cost for heavy weapons should at a minimum stay the same. I would prefer if they upped them by 5-10 pts, so a lascannon should cost +30-35 pts for example.
......

The reason for me wanting a higher pricetag on heavy weapons is because, well, noone ever takes guardsmen without heavy weapons. In my mind, a guardsman squad with a heavyweapon is worth about twice as much a a squad without one. Therefor, if guardsmen without heavy weapons are to be an attractive choice, the heavy weapon needs to cost almost as much as a squad with no heavy weapon.


You're right, it is very common to take guard squads with heavy weapons, as it does make them much more effective, and most of the alternatives are worse.

The solution is not to charge silly prices for heavy weapons, which you suggest, but to allow a second special weapon instead of the heavy weapon.

A squad with 8 lasguns and 2 grenade launchers can move an put out a fair amount of firepower, so making them more mobile, and so more interesting.
Two melta guns makes them a credible threat to most vehicles, and again more mobile.
Two flamers can put a real dent in that Gaunt or Ork horde, especially if you have an option to change the lasguns for shotguns- your charge might not do much, except against other guard, but it's fluffy, and better then letting them charge.
Two plasma guns would be very dangerous, both to you and your targets. If the background allows one in a normal guard squad, then two is just as reasonable.

You can still do the normal squad, with one heavy and one special weapon. This lets you choose your type of squad- long ranged static fire support, rapid fire killyness, or short ranged assualt weapon carriers. Much more variety, much more mobilty, and therefore more interesting.

ehlijen
20-09-2008, 13:05
The guardsmen are meant to be the bog standard humans that have to rely on having lot's of friends and huge, crude tanks to have any hope of standing up to anything. Giving them any kind of ability that emulates high tech gear or 'super' skills of other races goes against that concept.
Bayonets are just knifes on a rifle, they shouldn't do any more than a SM scout combat blade.
Lasguns standard at 30" range also belies their supposed simplicity. They are the standard weapon because they are cheap, reliable and easy to make and supply. If the depermentum munitorum could, they'd give all guardsmen bolters. But they can't. Specialised long-las's with 30" could work as the standard for sniper squads so that the spotter can pretend to do something, but as a standard weapon, they violate the core idea of the game that troops aren't meant to be able to shoot without at least one side moving forwards first in the standard setup. Tau only get to do that because FW do not have organic heavy weapons.

As for pistol and frad: pistols are meant to be a status weapon. It is a rich army that can supply all line troopers with sidearms to complement their rifle. While I don't see any problem with IG getting pistols standard, it doesn't feel right to me.
As for frags: they are a major bonus to guardsmen! Not because they negate the I penalty on the charge, but because suddenly all guardsmen can hurt all but the heaviest vehicles in combat! Giving guardsmen both LPs and FGs and giving then reducing their points cost is too much I'd say.
As for what can 10 laspistols do? That's not the question. The questions is how much more than 2 attacks per survivor can 10 laspistol shots first on top of 2 attacks per survivor do. At minimum, that's a 50% increase in offensive capability on the charge for the squad. It's still not going to be much, but it should be measured against the squads other abilities, not a meq target's ability to ignore it.

As for the kill point question: the easiest and most sensible way is to simply remove the IC status from officers. It hasn't really made any sense for them to be ICs since 4th ed came out.

MrBigMr
20-09-2008, 13:06
5p. a pop and vet sergeant as standard. So 50pts. gets you 9 guardsmen and a vet sergeant who can buy special equipment (bolters, etc.). Change some of the weapons. Flamer for 5p. GL for 10p. with AP3 kraks (maybe S4 frag?). Melta/plasma 10p. Add heavy stubber and sniper rifle among the heavy weapon choices (sniper team with the shooter and spotter) just for kicks.

Give platoons HW teams of their own (one squad per platoon, up to 3 teams per squad), similar to the DW vet list. So you could have platoon HWs without making squads too static.

Dramatically drop the price of at least sentinels and chimeras. Rhinos are 35pts. stock with a storm bolter. Chimera can't be much more. Maybe 40-50pts. tops. Stock sentinel cost the same as a kitted warwalker, which is also not open-topped. Fix, please.

Maybe drop the whole Ld. bubble and make vox-casters the way to spread the love, since I don't see many people taking them because of the bubble. If squads come with a "vet" sergeant with access to gear and no Ld. boost, the caster would be more important too.

Iron Discipline to all officers, close order drill to all guardsmen.


That's my take on the thing, but I quess some have better, more refined oppinions on the matter.

T_55
20-09-2008, 13:08
Hmm. You're right, I do tend to take things seriously of late. I guess that's partly in response to the incessant whining of people who play my other main army, dark angels. I guess I'm just tired of the "OMG, C:SM roxxorz too much! We need all their cool toys or we're screwed" talk. I think there are some things that need to be done to bring IG into 5th edition, but a points cut (for the basic guardsman, other elements of the list, such as the chimera, arguably need them, although I am perfectly content to field nine chimmies at their current cost) isn't one of them. I really think all we need are a few tweaks like dropping command squads to one kill point each and possibly pushing docrines down from the army list level to the platoon level.

Oh, and I do apologize for failing to accurately read your post. You did indeed specify that only the sergeant gets to take a club in place of his lasgun. I still think it's unfluffy, though not incredibly overpowered, for every guardsman to have a pistol.

Fair enough, sorry if i offended you as well.

RCgothic
20-09-2008, 13:09
I disagree about frag grenades. Removing the I penalty makes guardsmen I3. might as well not have had them.

ehlijen
20-09-2008, 13:16
Don't forget that grenades would let guardsmen make S4 attacks against vehicles (which are mostly hit on the rear armour in CC now). That is a rather significant ability.

Doctor Thunder
20-09-2008, 13:28
But (assuming 4th ed codex) the Guardsman pay 85 points for the lascannon+squad and the marines pay 90 and use up a full FO slot doing so. So as you see, IG already have an easier time spamming them and get twice as many bodies onto the field while doing so.

The heavies for IG can't become much cheaper or they will fall beneath the minimum overhead to bring a heavy weapon to the field.
I shouldn't have to tell you that the 90 point marine squad is immensely superior in 4th to the 85 point guard squad. So much so that GW actually got off it's titanic rear and fixed it in the new codex.

Using up a full force organizational slot is not a real disadvantage for the marine player, because six of those little marine squads is just as accurate as eight of those guard squads when it comes to tank hunting. Again, the marine player has paid 140 fewer points for the same tank killing lascannon ability, and on top of that has far greater resilience, leadership, and hth prowess.

Bloodknight
20-09-2008, 13:36
Would you pay for that ability on every squad? Especially since they can only glance most vehicles with them and not hurt the rest at all? I wouldn't.

I'd mainly like to see the option of two special weapons in a squad to get a mobile platoon combined with a fire support platoon that is armed with heavy weapons.

Dropping the cost of Guardsmen and upping the cost of heavy weapons won't achieve anything as long as the heavy weapon does at least as much damage as the rest of the squad. IMO there is no maximum cost for bringing a heavy weapon if the squad sucks without one and cannot reliably kill anything, you just take one because otherwise it's even worse. If that choice gets more unattractive, I see people cutting back on spending on Guardsmen even more (except for buying a couple of transports that keep the few scoring men alive. I've played some games where I didn't leave the transport once).

I'd like to see guard armies that can advance under covering fire, which they cannot really do currently, they just sacrifice too much, like cover and firepower.

Guardsmen are for that reason notoriously bad at capturing objectives. Frankly, I win a lot more in 5th that I did in 4th, and that is because I table the opponent's troops choices and kill anything approaching an objective, cling to mine and win because the opponent doesn't get one. I don't even try to get to his side of the table.

Of course I can currently build "assault" units with a special weapon, but seriously - a single melta gun, for example, at BS3 cannot be counted upon. If you want to see a tank dead, you'll probably have to commit 3 to 4 squads for that task, wasting all their lasgun fire. Of course half of them will end up in the open. If they could take two melta guns, fire control and movement get more predictable.


As for defensive upgrades for CC: I'd advise against it. The way the CC rules work, Guardsmen must die as quickly as possible in an assault so they don't endanger their comrades by holding. Giving them defensive grenades, for example, will not make them win combat, it will only make them lose less hard, and that is counter-productive.

As for the idea of making the Cadian the template: of course. Make them vanilla (like their models already suggest), the Black Legion of the IG (BL is just as bland ^^), able to do whatever style, give the other guys what they deserve, like a "rows upon rows" commander in addition to mech commander and LI commander. The Death Korps fights as in WW1, Mordians and Praetorians are Napoleonic armies, the Tallarn should be able to be played as Guerrilla fighters, as should the Catachans. Vostroyans should be the heavy infantry and Steel Legion the Blitzkrieg guys. Cadians should be able to do all of that at the same time, -1 (as a reaction on being able to do all of it).
Make the Cadian standard the modern combined arms approach, but give the guys who like to spend their money on different models the chance to play out their fluff (Space Marines can, and the only difference is their colour scheme). That said: as long as they are all available, they are not collector's models. The Praetorians and old Cadians are since they are OOP ;).

And GW: stop releasing fluff on pointless regiments. Flesh out what we've already got, and please, release a few models for us old timers to fill up our ranks (like the missing special weapons - or any new equipment the IG might get, like Artillery crews and so on). It's only a few metal figures.

Narf
20-09-2008, 14:34
How bout not changing the price for guard squads

make them 12 strong, with option that heavy weapon must be taken from list.

Allow the heavy weapon (2 troopers) to be detached from starting squad and added to heavy weapons squad using the same weapons, to bolster the numbers, in effect adding another weapon to the HW squad.

(i dont play guard but it its like marines then troop based HW's cost less then HS based weapons)

This means you get a few more tactics to use, ie 12 man squads vs 10 man squads and larger HW squads.

Could this work?

(Disclaimer i dont play guard so if my reasoning is wonky i apologise)

NARF

Templar Ben
20-09-2008, 14:35
I like the idea of advisors being able to go where they are needed. I would like it more if priests and sanctioned psychers were worth taking.

Lord-Gen Bale Chambers
20-09-2008, 14:46
I think the rumours we heard are going in the right direction. Platoon Drill, the ability to upgrade units in a platoon to veterans, and different option for the entire platoon (ie infiltrate, deep strike, mech, carapace, etc).

That is just one new rule for 5th and some reorganizing of the codex. I do like the idea of veteran platoons and the fact that they could claim objectives.

If they take away Grenadiers (which I use), I hope they give Stormtroopers the ability to take objectives. It would fit in their fluff, and they are just a harder guard unit that has the ability to hold onto an objective better then the rest.

As far as regular guard are concerned, I usually only take 1 platoon with about 3 squads in my army lists. I usually give them missle launchers and they provide supporting fire and anti-tank power for me. As they are, they support my Grenadiers, tanks and veterans. In this role, they do ok.

What I would like to see, is Iron Disipline standard for at least Senior Officiers. Sharpshooters for free for all standard guardsmen.

Platoon squads purchased at 60pts for 10 guard, vox caster, gernade launcher or flamer. With sharpshooters, the free vox and special weapon is better then dropping their point cost.

If they drop the cost of chimeras, adjust advisors and sentinels, I think the codex will be ok.

Currently the only 5th Ed missions I have problems with is the one with 2 "bases" as objectives. These usually finish in a draw for me with no chance of winning. Either Chimeras can't get there in time or my flank marching unit comes in on the wrong side. Only once was I sure to win one, but the game ended on turn 5 and I was 3" outside of contesting their objective.

march10k
20-09-2008, 14:52
I like the idea of advisors being able to go where they are needed. I would like it more if priests and sanctioned psychers were worth taking.

I think a good rule to balance detaching them would be capping them at say three total for the entire army (three advisors, not three of each). Make them a 0-3 elites choice IC that doesn't take a slot (the way techmarines don't take a slot).

Chains and Glass
20-09-2008, 14:58
Sentinels are fantastic, my advice: stop bying extra armour and armoured crew compartment.

65 points is a warwalker with a shuriken cannon and bright lance (cheapest way to get a bright lance)
65 points is a sentinel lascannon and a hunter killer missile.

the negatives:

my sentinel won't be forced to buy an extra useless weapon (shuriken cannon + brightlance is like the white dwarf guy who used a heavy bolter + lascannon dev squad) and can fire two useful weapons at the same target at the same time, making them more reliable (BS3)

Mine has an extra +1 S in CC (i think)

Mine can scout move (outflank?)

Meh... walkers like these are meant to die anyway.

GW DO NOT give IG iron discipline and close order drill standard PLEASE

what if i want to keep my rag-tag chaos guardsmen!!! I DON'T WANT THEM WELL DISCIPLINED!!!

STOP FORCING DISCIPLINE ON ME!!! :'(

DarkMatter2
20-09-2008, 15:01
I'm of the opinion that standardising upgrades into the points cost of the IG would be a huge mistake. It forces those who might not otherwise want to to take these mostly useless upgrades.

I'm also of the opinion that the "standard guardsman" is just fine as he is, its his points cost and the rest of the codex options that need to be looked at.

Bloodknight
20-09-2008, 15:04
I think a good rule to balance detaching them would be capping them at say three total for the entire army (three advisors, not three of each). Make them a 0-3 elites choice IC that doesn't take a slot (the way techmarines don't take a slot).

At that point you might just leave them out. IC advisors are useless, they'll always jump in front of the rest and get themselves killed first. The Advisors should stay like they are now, only that they can join any squad. A priest in a unit of Guardsmen is far from gamebreaking, and an IC priest in a squad of Guardsmen is useless.

march10k
20-09-2008, 15:10
At that point you might just leave them out. IC advisors are useless, they'll always jump in front of the rest and get themselves killed first. The Advisors should stay like they are now, only that they can join any squad. A priest in a unit of Guardsmen is far from gamebreaking, and an IC priest in a squad of Guardsmen is useless.

Good point. Counterproposal. Leave them as they are now, but still put a limit of three on the army, and allow them to be upgrade characters for any squad you like.


I'm of the opinion that standardising upgrades into the points cost of the IG would be a huge mistake. It forces those who might not otherwise want to to take these mostly useless upgrades.


Kind of like forcing my dark angels to take a pistol and both kinds of grenades for 3 points a model? Yeah, it was a mistake, but it's the direction that GW is going. Can you imagine how badly devastators need grenades and pistols that they have to pay for? :rolleyes:

Bloodknight
20-09-2008, 15:18
Good point. Counterproposal. Leave them as they are now, but still put a limit of three on the army, and allow them to be upgrade characters for any squad you like.

Looks good to me. More than one commissar, priest and psyker per company is pretty silly from a fluff PoV, too - so a max of 3 is enough for a normal game, I think.


Kind of like forcing my dark angels to take a pistol and both kinds of grenades for 3 points a model?

Do they really pay for these? I think they might pay for the pistol, but the grenades are essentially free. Otherwise the SM should cost 18-19 points, and not 15/16. They must be free because a Space Marine is clearly worth more than 12 points (or 11 without pistol).

shutupSHUTUP!!!
20-09-2008, 15:44
What should the squad/heavy weapon cost ratio be then?

I mean, let's take the current squads and not change the overall points cost, so a squad with a heavy bolter costs 70 pts and a squad with a lascannon costs 85 pts. How much of those pts costs should be the heavy weapon and how much of the cost should be the squad.

march10k
20-09-2008, 16:04
Do they really pay for these? I think they might pay for the pistol, but the grenades are essentially free. Otherwise the SM should cost 18-19 points, and not 15/16. They must be free because a Space Marine is clearly worth more than 12 points (or 11 without pistol).

Dark Angels cost 18 points a model.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
20-09-2008, 16:24
The basic cost for a squad of dark Angels includes the cost of a veteran sergeant, so it's more like 15 pts per model, as shown by the "buy 5 additional marines for x pts" part.

Angelus Mortis
20-09-2008, 16:26
GW DO NOT give IG iron discipline and close order drill standard PLEASE

what if i want to keep my rag-tag chaos guardsmen!!! I DON'T WANT THEM WELL DISCIPLINED!!!

STOP FORCING DISCIPLINE ON ME!!! :'(

I agree 100%. One of my biggest complaints (and I know I'm not alone on this) is how almost every army list is either fearless or re-rolls morale or has Ld 10 or ATSKNF or some other relatively easy way to circumvent morale test failures. It pretty makes morale irrelevant. I think morale should play a bigger role in the game and fearless units and such should be Elite elements of a list, not rank and file (save special lists such as SM and GK as thats their trademark). IG should not have Iron Discipline unless its paid for and therefore made to fit the character of that specific regiment.


Dark Angels cost 18 points a model.

If you buy 5 of them they are 18. If you buy 10 they are 16.5 each in addition to getting a free Vet Sergeant. Fourth edition SM (talking 4e because 5e isnt officially out yet) with the same gear (counting BP as 1 pt per general character costs) makes C:SM Tacs cost 19 a piece. Either way, they BP/FG/KG are essentially free.

Lame Duck
20-09-2008, 16:52
Just had this idea.

Why not make any infantry squad which ONLY fires lasguns still be able to run aswell. I think it would really give us far more options in terms of gaining ground, making most use of cover while advancing or actually voluntarily getting into rapid firing range, given we have the opportunity to retreat again.

Also, this would mean heavy weapons wouldn't have to be so highly costed, as they would be wasted in scenarious where you did want to shoot and run.
I think it's fairly fluffy aswell, representing the dogged fighting style of a fair few of guard armies.

march10k
20-09-2008, 17:09
The basic cost for a squad of dark Angels includes the cost of a veteran sergeant, so it's more like 15 pts per model, as shown by the "buy 5 additional marines for x pts" part.

The first five (including the veteran sergeant) cost 105. The other five cost 90. That's 18 points a model, plus 15 points for the veteran sergeant. ;)

shutupSHUTUP!!!
20-09-2008, 17:35
Are you sure about those costs? I'm fairly sure they are incorrect unless we have different copies of the codex somehow.

Bloodknight
20-09-2008, 17:47
What Codex are you using? In mine, the first 5 DA Tacticals cost 90 including VSGT, and the other 5 cost 75, 15 points per model.

RCgothic
20-09-2008, 18:01
The problem is that the guardsman needs to be made more attractive.

That means cheaper or better. I'd like a mix of both without going overboard on either. I think IG heavy/special weapons are already overpriced compared to their marine counterparts, and the basic guardsman is not worth 6pts either. Some argue that the overcosting is to prevent heavy weapons spam, but I think that case is being overstated.

50-60 points should cover:
9 guardsmen, sgt and vox (40-50pts)
grenade launcher/flamer (5 pts)
grenade launcher/flamer/heavy bolter/mortar (5pts)

That's an example of slightly cheaper. Better would include platoon abilities as a freebie. Guardsmen DO need buffing in this manner.

senorcardgage
20-09-2008, 18:18
Wow, some of you people are suggesting 3 point guardsmen? (Octavius)

This reminds me of when I read that Tyranid Warriors should be T5 and have a 3+ save for the same cost as they are now.

Please, lets get away from this garbage of just making things cheaper. Some of you guys like making comparisons across armies, but do you really think that a guardsmen is as bad as a grot? You know, the guys with WS2, S2, T2, and no save? Yeah, those guys.

avatar of kaine
20-09-2008, 18:21
ok back on topic how bout this rule tweak for lasguns

lasguns: Range 24" Strength:3 Ap:5 rapid fire, full charge

full charge: on a 6 o hit it is Strngth 4


so mabe for a standad guardsman

guardsman: 45 pts (fpr whole squad)
-----------WS|bs|S|T|I|W|A|ld|sv
guardsmen 03|03|3|3 |3|1|1|7|5+
sargent----03|03|3|3 |3|1|1|8|5+
number per squad: 1 sargent and 9 guadsmen

Wargear: lasgun or las pistol and CCW

Options: one person in the squad may exchange there lasgun for a missile launcher at 15 pts or a grenade laucher for +5 pts and one more person in the squad may replace there las gun for a flamer at +5 pts

mass- recruitment: for +30 pts in the squad you can have an extra 8 guardsmen. Note: you can do this up to 4 times.

how's that?

Lame Duck
20-09-2008, 18:35
I'm in favour of mass recruitment and the weopon options.

Ap5 for lasguns is just a no-no. I would think twice even about making it AP6, but 5 is just off limits IMO.

Bloodknight
20-09-2008, 18:40
You know, the guys with WS2, S2, T2, and no save?

A grot makes its points back by just moving in front of the army. Guardsmen have to do damage. But yes, 3 points is too cheap. I like RCgothic's proposal.

senorcardgage
20-09-2008, 18:47
people also play gunline because you can keep your guardsmen in cover.

Using platoon drills to give covering fire to exposed squads helps.

Does the unit have to give up their shooting to give the other unit a 4+ invul save? If not, that's kind of crazy because you could just give all of your units 4+ invul saves for free...

Is this also in addition to a points drop?

I would like to see guard drop at most by one point. What I would very much like to see is the ability to take 2 special weapons instead of a special and a heavy, especially in Iron Fist squads. This, in my opinion, would make guard armies in general much more dynamic and would give guard players a reason to not just pillbox with heavy weapons.

Chimeras need a points decrease, but with a standard heavy bolter and multilaser load, I wouldn't want to see them below 50.

Helicon_One
20-09-2008, 19:28
A points drop does nothing to make guardsmen 'more interesting', it just reduces the Boring Stuff Tax that we have to pay before we're allowed the cool stuff.

Angelus Mortis
20-09-2008, 22:35
The first five (including the veteran sergeant) cost 105. The other five cost 90. That's 18 points a model, plus 15 points for the veteran sergeant. ;)

Thats incorrect Brother. The first 5 cost a flat 90. There is no cost for the Vet Sergeant what-so-ever. That comes to 18 pts a piece. The next option you have is to add 5 more marines (no more, no less) for 75 pts, bringing the total to 165. 165/10 =16.5.

clanfield
20-09-2008, 22:42
what about las carbines similar to the pulse carbine /pulse rifle

kinda like a tommygun for sargents s3 range 12 ap-
and maybe smoke grenades for the assult move up

as to iorn dicipline remember guard officers already give a 12" ld bonus not many armys give that

detached advisors is fun as is heavy wepons
but what about claymoores and booby traps most infantary forces use them when needed
and i had a thought about this new land speeder storm for storm trooper units kinda like a huey air cav instead of armourd fists that would be a fun option
and what about some conventional arty istead of self propelled guns cheap battle cannon on a stick with wheels (dreams of thudd guns)
and my final idea is the heavy stubber as a squad support wepon

ehlijen
21-09-2008, 01:35
Las carbines could work. You'd make the choice of either for whole platoons (Ie rifle or carbine platoons).

The DA squads must come with a veteran, so the points are built in. For them it indeed comes to 15 per marine and 15 extra for the sarge.
The BA on the other hand have the same, but then throw in the DC tax making it more per marine.

And 10 guardsmen with a lascannon are not much worse than 5 marines with the same assuming cover. They are only 1/6th worse in shooting at over 24". There is also almost a 50-50 chance of either squad winning a direct shootout at 12-24" assuming cover.

And now that everyone else is moving away from cheap heavies in troops units, the IG looks even better.
Marines need to pay at least 170 points to bring a heavy in the next codex. The IG can bring 2 lascannons for that, again with twice as many bodies.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the way normal platoons work in 5th ed. In fact, my guard have been doing great, and I usually take platoons with heavies even if I intend to move them a lot.

What I think should change:
officers no longer ICs
More freedom in assigning advisors: If the command squad of a platoon has one, all squads in the platoon can. No number limits anymore, but keep the cost high enough not to make them no brainers.
Commisar: grants stubborn, keep the execution as it's just pure 40k
Priest: grants fearless and charge bonus. Makes squad count as moving, commisar stats
psyker: grants nightvision and pick the power. Same cost but has to take a FW.
veterans: move to command platoon as a squad choice (0-2 like the others)
storm troopers: come with either DS or infiltrate for free. can pay for the other.
Ogryns: Option for carapace
Generally make all the restricted choices more appealing to make doctrines less of a no brainer. (I realise that doctrines probably won't stay, this is just to point out the problem with the current system).

If you don't find the guardsman interesting enough, than guard isn't your army. It is the army where the average grunts have to rise above themselves to be the heroes of the hour because the actual heroes haven't shown. If you start making guardsman into something they are not (ie given them equipment or abilites of other, more elite armies) then you take that 'average grunt winning the day' feeling away.

There are a few problems with the IG, but the basic guardsman or his squad isn't one of them.

decker_cky
21-09-2008, 03:18
I'd like to see 60 pt squads with krak grenades and a vet sarge. Give the army a special rule that kill points are halved (round up) and give lasguns the ability to fire at long range even if they've moved. The crucial change is made (kill points) and guardsmen get interesting upgrades.

It doesn't make the guardsman really 'worth' the points, but overall, adjust it for the army.

I'd also like to see rough rider platoons as a troops choice possibility.

Havock
21-09-2008, 04:14
This is-The sergeant may replace his lasgun with a laspistol or shotgun for free, a bolt pistol or bolter or plasma pistol for 10 pts.

[...]

*The bolt pistol/bolter is priced up somewhat so that not every sergeant in the galaxy carries a bolter as a result of free sergeants.
*Player encouraged to take cheaper wargear.

Why? Seriously, the only reason people take a bolter/pistol is because it is a cheap way to fill pts yet also 'add' something to a squad.

Also, to us, a lascannon should cost 15 pts. 20 Tops. 25 is horribly overpriced.

MrBigMr
21-09-2008, 08:20
*The bolt pistol/bolter is priced up somewhat so that not every sergeant in the galaxy carries a bolter as a result of free sergeants.
How many Marine sergeants carry power fists or power weapons (in fluff, on TT)?

march10k
21-09-2008, 09:03
Thats incorrect Brother. The first 5 cost a flat 90. There is no cost for the Vet Sergeant what-so-ever. That comes to 18 pts a piece. The next option you have is to add 5 more marines (no more, no less) for 75 pts, bringing the total to 165. 165/10 =16.5.


Curse my faulty memory! ...my codex is 7000 miles away? :angel:


Give the army a special rule that kill points are halved (round up)

Nope. That would be monstrous. You outnumber the enemy as it is. Do you know how hard it is to kill 150 models in six turns??? Especially when those 150 models are shooting back the whole time? The only kill points fix that IG need is to reduce command squads to a single kill point by making the officer an upgrade character. That alone would reduce the number of kill points that a standard IG list has at risk by three and allow you to actually risk the command squads in combat in kill point games. Overall, though, more kill points is an advantage as much as it is a drawback. If you want to cut kill points in half, I want IG to have to put two units on an objective to hold it, or contest it. Or do you insist on having your cake and eating it, too?

Chains and Glass
21-09-2008, 12:48
I agree march... halving the kill points is just an absurd concept imho.

but to state that having 150 models is some kind of tactical advantage is to completely ignore the outlying factors.

all up id assume those 150 models are about 17-18 kill points, roughly double of what i've seen some people field in 1750 (the points level i assume your talking about)

To consistantly insist that having more vulnerabilities is an advantage is to greatly mis-read the current situation.

a marine squad can easily achieve the same objective that 2 guard squads would struggle to achieve, 4-5+ if that objective involves orks/nids.

yes, they can split fire, but with BS3 that's an increasingly bad idea, the more you split.

They just currently are not good enough at killing things as the opponents are at killing them, i'll agree that a tactful commander could run rings around a marine opponent, but two equally skilled players in killpoints, the guardsmen will have it harder and harder in an ap5 world.

EDIT: i think in that regard the guard are perfectly fitted to the fluff, they're there to slowly grind opponents down, seize objectives in titanic struggles.... not the flare and daring manouvrability that would put them on par with the other "Kill em all" kinda races.

Bloodknight
21-09-2008, 12:58
17-18 is a conservative estimate, I'd say you can easily have over 20.

For me, Guardsmen were more interesting if I got what I paid for. As it is, I am cutting back on them not because I don't like them, but because they are not worth their points. I'd gladly field a horde of them (175 in the troops section spring to mind, could make a great game vs an Ork player), but they aren't worth it compared to mentioned Orks thanks to lower resilience, mainly weak and inaccurate shooting and no CC prowess at all. Give me 20-30% more of them for the same points and I'll gladly switch back to them from my also overpriced Grenadiers.

Promethius
21-09-2008, 13:36
I quite like the idea of different fire modes for the humble lasgun. How about Varath's suggestion?:

range 24" assault 1 or

range 12" heavy 3

This encourages mobility and allows guard to sit tight and hose down charging units with lasgun fire up close. Numbers wise, the extra shots are unlikely to be game-winning but would tip the balance slightly more in the guard's favour (and represents the vast ammo capacity of lasguns).

Octavius_Maximus
21-09-2008, 13:47
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163362

Heres my take on a new codex if you want to take a look! (please do!)

Ive made Guard much more variable while making the Command chain more obvious!

While not making the lasgun more interesting per se, i have made the units able to use their turn in many more interesting ways.

Lame Duck
21-09-2008, 13:51
That would render armoured fist units almost entirely useless. Disembark and get....10 lasgun shots!

Apart from that it's a fairly good idea, armoured fist squads arent that useful as it is.

Bloodknight
21-09-2008, 14:11
I'd actually like to see IG squads without heavy weapons at all, but the option for two specials. Heavy weapons should then be grouped into HW-Squads that can be taken attached to the platoon, at a ratio of one HW unit per platoon (2 squads per platoon might be a bit much because the infantry gets two weapons, plus 2 squads of heavies would mean a significant raise in firepower).

That would make the IG a lot more mobile since the infantry could move and actually do something while moving with a reasonable chance of success (one melta shot, for example, is far too unreliable. Two is a reasonable chance of hitting with at least one), and the heavies stay back and provide fire support.

RCgothic
21-09-2008, 14:39
No No No No NO. 2 special weapons for the option of mobility certainly, but taking away heavy weapons from line squads goes WAY too far.

Pyriel
21-09-2008, 15:03
List-wise(thus, to an extent, codex-wise) games are won through mobility and lethality.
this means that the key to victory is the ability to quickly zoom across the battlefield, then target a unit and shoot/charge it(depending on army) to wipe it out. this speed in movement and action lets you have the upper hand tactically.

"shooting to do casualties" does not work, as modifiers to shooting Ld tests are not as brutal as in cc. if putting a shooty unit in a list, you make sure the damage it can cause is ridiculous.As a result, str 3 shots are not a solution.The solution, as in most armies' case, is making the IG squad worthwhile-hence, sergeant wargear.

current IG squad has a special, a heavy and lasguns(read:nothing). how about the sergeant?every other race has cool sergeant wargear.why not give him choice of hand flamer or combi-plasma?
IG squad will then have , say, a missile launcher and 2 plasmaguns(shooty) or 2 flamers and a heavy flamer for chimera assault(sooner or later has to become heavy choice) the 3 templates of doom.

Nym
21-09-2008, 15:11
Having the option to switch the Heavy weapon for another Special weapon would be nice. :)

I really wish they're trying to make guard a more mobile mass-infantry army rather than a static gunline army. More mobile firepower would make the game a lot funnier.

RCgothic
21-09-2008, 15:29
Seems pretty clear that the only fix the guard squad/infantryman really needs is the option of a 2nd special instead of a heavy.

Other abilities need to come in at platoon level to focus on the guardsman's ability to work well with his fellow men. A guard army should be like a swarm of army ants. One by itself isn't very dangerous, but a swarm of them will strip the flesh from your bones kind of thing.

Lame Duck
21-09-2008, 15:33
Or even make the lasgun rapid fire +1 shot. ie

range 24 heavy 2
range 12 assault 3 (but can't actually assault).

This results in gaurdsmen being able to deal out a fair amount of damage at a distance, providing they stay still.

At close range you can deal a bit more damage, so advancing isn't a complete waste, but being within charge range is not really where you want to be with guard.#

Thoughts?

broxus
21-09-2008, 15:48
The problem is that the IG really lack a unit to take the fight to the enemy and they seem to always become the gunline which is very very boring. They dont have any tactical flexibility. Ogryns need a huge buff and they need some new units.

broxus
21-09-2008, 15:50
Seems pretty clear that the only fix the guard squad/infantryman really needs is the option of a 2nd special instead of a heavy.

Other abilities need to come in at platoon level to focus on the guardsman's ability to work well with his fellow men. A guard army should be like a swarm of army ants. One by itself isn't very dangerous, but a swarm of them will strip the flesh from your bones kind of thing.

Good idea, very good idea

shutupSHUTUP!!!
21-09-2008, 16:41
When you say the "only fix" they need is that, are you suggesting that 76 points for a guard squad with two grenade launchers is a fairly priced unit?

Asi the Red
21-09-2008, 17:37
OK, keep in mind that I don't play Guard but am an avid reader of their material...

Most of what I'd like to see is more abilities moved into the infantry platoons:
1. I'd like to see fire support teams attached to infantry platoons.
2. I'd like to see said fire support weapon teams to be able to buy an ability (called whatever) that if they shoot through a squad from their platoon the enemy can only claim a 5+ cover save instead of a 4+.
3. I'd like to see infantry platoons be able to buy an ability for the platoon ("Suppressing Fire!", or whatever) that if more than one squad shoots at the same target the second squad's weapons count as Pinning (for what Pinning's worth in a battlefield filled with Fearless and Ld 9/10 armies). Maybe Pinning and inflicts a -1 Ld penalty.
4. I'd like to see infantry platoons be able to buy an ability for their infantry squads ("On the Double!", or whatever) that lets them reroll their distance dice when Running.
5. I do not want to see an option for infantry squads to take two special weapons, or that if they can it's restricted to flamers and grenade launchers and not meltas and plasmas.
6. I'd like to see HQ level abilities that effect the army as a whole. For instance if your HSO selects the "Forgeworld Supplied" ability then infantry squads can take a second Heavy weapon in place of their special weapon. If he takes "Crusade Vanguard" then every infantry platoon can buy the Preferred Enemy USR. If he buys "Armored Assault" then all vehicles can buy the ability can force a reroll on the vehicle damage table once per game, or are assaulted on their side armor value or something.
7. I'd like some of the "Regiments of Note" (or whatever they're called) to be moved to their own unit choice (like the CSM legion marines were). So you could have the Tanith First and Only (Troops) who've got Sharpshooters, Cameoline and Infiltrate, Cadians (Elites) who've got Stubborn and +1 BS, Catachans (Troops) who've got an extra CC attack, Move through Cover, Infiltrate, etc, etc.
8. All the "Regiments of Note" cannot become their own Troops and Elite choices, which is where Special Characters come in. So if you take the Harakoni Warhawk SC then all of your infantry platoons can Deep Strike, etc.


Like I said I don't play Guard, and I've never played against a Guard army, so take my suggestions with a handful of salt. These are just some things that I think would make the IG basic infantry a little more characterful.
@OP - per your request, no point costs were discussed in the making of this post.

wingedserpant
21-09-2008, 17:57
If you think it is inappropriate to compare to Space Marines (which is the most common army) then how about a comparision to 6 point orks?

A unit of Shoota boyz can outshoot the Gaurdsmen and still charge in to finish off the rest. Hence why I think it would be fair for lasguns to be assault 2 with a 24 inch range. That way they can take the fight to the enemy, become highly mobile and be able to outshoot units like shoota boyz.

Or maybe keep them as they are but lower them to 4 points and give them the option to upgrade their lasguns to become assault 2 or strenth 4 but only 18 inch range and no rapid fire. Or assault 2 strenth 4 but with only 12 inch range. Then throw in some rules for bayonets like giving them furious charge or have the enemy negate the bonus for cover or take a wound. The guard need to be made to be more aggressive. They are said to be like WW1 forces but they didn't stand and shoot each other, they charged at each other. I'm not saying they should become a combat army but charging the enemy should become an option. The guard in order to justify six points should be able to shoot at the foe and then beat them down with bayonets or the butt of their rifle. I mean shoota boyz can do that and they have T4 and furious charge. Why can't guard do that? They have a lower toughness but higher BS. They don't have anything to help them in combat other than average inititive yet they cost the same.

The most bland choice in the list must become its most interesting and fun to use. Of course what type of special and heavy weapons you can take will be altered by the lasgun type you are using.

The fluff regarding the guardsman varies from holding a fortress to be sent charging at the enemy. They can be highly mobile or stand in their hundreds with mass produced weapons.

By giving the option for

505
21-09-2008, 21:25
well I personally love the guardsmen I have run an all infantry force for a few years now. (though with new tank rules I may take a few)

I just like the versatility a guard unit can be and the amount of Special weapons they can get

Lord Raneus
22-09-2008, 00:45
I'd rather have Guardsmen with more special rules/bonuses that remain 6pts, but if we don't get better rules then a points drop is a must.

6pt Guard remaining as they are now is simply unacceptable, it's a huge joke compared to armies like Orks. Shoota Boys are better at shooting, better at assaulting, have better leadership, and are harder to kill than Guardsmen (6+ save doesn't really matter because almost everything that ignores Ork saves ignores Guard saves too.)

cailus
22-09-2008, 01:15
My idea is based more on more modern infantry tactics since World War II and are based around the concept of squads being orientated around high rate of fire weapons (machine guns in the 20th/21st centuries).

New weapon: Squad Automatic Weapon.

Background: Infantry tactics revolve around the utilisation of high rate of fire weapons to suppress enemy forces and to provide covering fire for advances. In the 41st millenium, most IG/PDF squads have access to squad automatic weapons to provide this role. They come in a number of different versions ranging from belt fed water cooled medium stubbers to more high tech weapons such as light multi-lasers.

A SAW maybe taken instead of a flamer/plasma gun/meltagun at X points per. An additional SAW maybe taken instead of a heavy weapon

SAW stats:
S4, Ap 6
Range: 24 inches
Stationary: Heavy 6 or Assault 3.
Pinning weapon.

SinCollector
22-09-2008, 15:28
wow, sticking a knife to your rifle makes a guardsman almost as good as a space marine in close combat? atleast when he assaults. That sounds way over the top.

30" range lasguns does sound pretty nice. But I dunno, for one its really stepping on some Tau toes, and also it encourages IG to just stand and shoot.

I guess most guard players rarely face guards themselves, but playing against a guard gunline army really doesn't make for a fun game. Any changes in the guard codex should encourage more dynamic gameplay and make other options more viable than the old "stand-still-and-roll-dice" tactic.

Thats why I want cheaper guardsmen, but more costly heavy weapons. Gunline guards work, assaulting guards dont, thats why most play gunline. By shifting the cost of basic guards and their heavy weapons around abit, I think more tactics would become viable for the guard players, without resorting to abunch of ad-hoc special rules.

If we want "fluffy" assaulting guards we're going to have to come up with a way to bring more Guardsmen to the assault. In the fluff, lesser beings generally only take down Marines through weight of numbers. However, in 40K now you end up with 10IG vs 10SM in most assaults and the marines get more attacks individually as well.

They could allow bigger squads but they'd just break under the current morale rules and get wiped out. Maybe allow squads of up to 20 and give Commissars the ability to make squads fight to the last man in CC? And give Guard a few more CC options. The ability to take dedicated CC squads LIKE EVERY OTHER ARMY is a no-brainer.

Commissars need to be made worthwhile anyway. The commissar is one of the fluffiest units in the Guard and nobody uses them. I think a proper re-tooling of the Commissar will benefit the standard guardsman as well.

-Sin

Promethius
22-09-2008, 17:48
I think penal legion troopers should become the new guard assault unit. Give them frenzon (feel no pain + furious charge) and pistol/ccw with the option for a couple of human bombs (demo charges) and use them as ablative counter-assault troops.

The shoota boy comparison is apt because it demonstrates exactly how bad the basic guardsmen is. The answer has to lie in a combination of special rules and points drops, but deciding on the right combination is very tricky. Certainly changing the way lasguns work and having platoon-based skills seems like a good way forward.

Bloodknight
22-09-2008, 17:58
While a fitting idea for the 41st millennium, I really really doubt that GW will ever give us our human bombs back. If the wrong people got a look at them, they'd say you could use 40K to plan terror attacks...(see the WoW thread in Random Musings...). No, joking. The outcry by parents could wreck our hobby.

wingedserpant
22-09-2008, 19:14
While a fitting idea for the 41st millennium, I really really doubt that GW will ever give us our human bombs back. If the wrong people got a look at them, they'd say you could use 40K to plan terror attacks...(see the WoW thread in Random Musings...). No, joking. The outcry by parents could wreck our hobby.

Too true. When I was told we were not allowed to bring in cans of coke I joked that it was because terrorists could be hiding in anything. A child laughed and was instantly told off by his mother and gae me a dire look.

Dendarien
22-09-2008, 21:08
What I want to see is the versatility of IG to be well represented. Tanith and Steel Legion fight different enough to at least warrant some platoon drills in the book. I'm not asking or want several IG codices, but I do want the ability to model different regiments out of the same book much like the new SM codex.

There should be a list of "platoon drills" for JOs and SOs. The chain of command would be stressed by this AND you could model different forces from the same book. Drills could be anything: Iron Discipline, Sharpshooters, etc. for JOs and "organizational drills" for the HQ (drop troopers and the like). New "Regimental Organizations" should be added to represent all sorts of worlds and fighting styles (human waves, stubbornness,

I was thinking of either changing the lasgun to assault 2 with same stats as now or giving drills that change the performance of the lasgun (in fluff I've read about IG setting weapons on max so maybe increase the strength of the shot or whatever). The inclusion of a lascarbine is a brilliant idea.

Two special weapons per squad sounds alright with me but I still think more should be added to get guard into the fight and more dynamic. The Furious Charge USR for bayonets sounded awesome and very fluffy.

All of the previously unattractive units need a rethinking. I liked the thought one poster had of the Commissar making units stubborn and keeping the execution bit. Psykers should be more powerful but very limited (the 0-3 of advisers is a good idea).

Stormtroopers, fluff wise, are the elite assault unit of the guard. Striking behind enemy lines and capturing objectives. Let STs capture objectives and give them some rules to match the fluff (nothing overpowering, but not making STs suck would be a great start).

Ogryns could use T5 so that powerfists don't dominate them.

Just a few ideas, but really I think platoon and HQ drills are the way to go towards making guard more interesting and less gunline or drop troop.

I think some people are afraid of guard moving away from what they have always been. But we have to remember not all guard are mindless waves of conscripts who just die, some are but some are also professional soldiers that are well disciplined and trained.

Bunnahabhain
22-09-2008, 21:42
While a fitting idea for the 41st millennium, I really really doubt that GW will ever give us our human bombs back. If the wrong people got a look at them, they'd say you could use 40K to plan terror attacks...(see the WoW thread in Random Musings...). No, joking. The outcry by parents could wreck our hobby.

Somehow I don't think that's likely, not with 40K. It's simply not realistic enough. Besides, you can buy books on real small group infantry tactics in any high street book shop - In Edinburgh, two different bookshops, both part of different nationwide chains.

What does seem more probable is if GW re-introduced human bombs, somebody would manage to be offended on behalf of Hamas, the Tamil Tigers, and other non fictional users of them, and you never know which of these nonsense stories get picked up on by somebody looking to be offended- the liberal press, certain religious leaders, etc etc.

Bloodknight
22-09-2008, 21:52
What does seem more probable is if GW re-introduced human bombs, somebody would manage to be offended on behalf of Hamas, the Tamil Tigers, and other non fictional users of them, and you never know which of these nonsense stories get picked up on by somebody looking to be offended- the liberal press, certain religious leaders, etc etc.

That's what I meant, basically.

cailus
23-09-2008, 01:11
I think penal legion troopers should become the new guard assault unit. Give them frenzon (feel no pain + furious charge) and pistol/ccw with the option for a couple of human bombs (demo charges) and use them as ablative counter-assault troops.

That would be totally sweet! Very 40K and very IG indeed!

Brucopeloso
23-09-2008, 08:28
I think penal legion troopers should become the new guard assault unit. Give them frenzon (feel no pain + furious charge) and pistol/ccw with the option for a couple of human bombs (demo charges) and use them as ablative counter-assault troops.

.

I'd love it (minus the human bombs for PR reasons). That would make a traitor guard army almost mandatory :D

Lord Solar Plexus
23-09-2008, 14:43
Oh my...'ere we go again...

1) Guardsmen are fine as they are.
2) Looking at one single item/model in a vacuum makes no sense. There's always a context unless you play 60 point games.
3) Comparing guardsmen to shootas/marines is not 'apt', it is misleading.



Over the past 10 years or so the standard guardsman has gone from a unit which could take veteran skills, and detach heavy weapon squads and a handful of other things in 2nd, to a unit which is considered little more than cheap, spammable, str3 shots, cannon fodder, only taken because it is required in order to get the tanks and big guns on the field.


There is an abundance of misconceptions here:

1) Veteran skills are now called doctrines ->no change.
2) Detach HW teams ->yes, please, bring that back! That'd be awesome.
3) Hu? I thought they're overcosted? How can they be cheap and spammable at the same time?
4) They've always been S3 ->no change.
5) They've always been cannon fodder ->no change.
6) They've been even more necessary to take tanks in 2nd and just as necessary to bring guns ->no change.



I believe a simple thing GW could do to bring some character to the guardsman unit is to give all guard infantry "close order drill" for free.


That's already the case (if the player is so inclined), so wouldn't be a change.



Another ability I think that should come standard to the army at no additional cost is "iron discipline". This would be a free new rule for all officers, and would hopefully further cement the command hierarchy the guard have.


Again, a majority of armies already uses it. It's not free but very very cheap, so that's no real change, especially not one that makes the Guardsman as such any more attractive since it's already there.



Close order drill is very guard'ish, and helps represent their quasi WW1 infantry style


Especially for Tallarns, Catachans, Elysians and the like? No. You are imposing your very specific views of how the Guard works on everyone else here.



I say this because the current shared leadership ability is basically null when you consider that all squads can take a vet at ld8 anyway.


At a cost, yes. The Ld bubble is free.



The key here is that the abilities would become standard special rules that all guard infantry would benefit from at no additional cost or prereqs,


Not sure what to say. They pretty much are standard special rules. You say that they are minor changes which would simultaneously be a "great start" and "really bring some of the character back" when the net effect is zilch because they're so heavily used already.


in the end its still a str4 shot

What?


The problem right now is that a guardsman is severely overcosted for what it can do.


No (despite the interweb claiming so).



If you run the math


If you run the math for any situation specifically geared to prove a point, you will probably prove the point. All it takes is one guardsman and one AP 3 gun and the difference evaporates. Of course, the OP doesn't wish to discuss the context but assumes, just as you, that fighting takes place with lasguns and flak jackets only, artificially eliminating 99 percent of the codex.



When I field a standard 1500 point IG army, he is basically getting 2500 points, as far as battlefield effectiveness is concerned.


That's pretty absurd. As if a standard Guard army would consist of nothing but lasguns. :rolleyes:



In HTH is gets even worse for the guard, since the marine can kill only one guardsmen and make them fail their leadership and wipe out the whole squad without actually having to kill each and every one, while ATSKNF prevents this from happening to the marines.


Which marines? There's only a single one of them in your example. Not ATSKNF prevents him from falling back, his death does in the case he dies.



The key here Shutup, is that while more units on the field might kill more, guardsmen are not interesting, and frankly they have a history of actually being pretty boss when you look at 2nd edition.


Ah...what?!? :eek: I'm at a complete loss for words (though rest assured, it won't be long before I gather my composure again).



the basic guardsman is pretty boring. This is a detriment to the guard, because everyone focuses on tanks, heavy wep squads


The basic guardsman is no more boring than your basic guardian, gaunt, firewarrior or ork, and please let's not talk about Necrons with their immense diversity. Are you going to make them more 'interesting' too?


The problem is that the guardsman needs to be made more attractive.


You make it sound as if it was more a question of sculpting...;)

Bloodknight
23-09-2008, 15:18
Guardsmen were a lot better in 2nd, LSP, but not by virtue of being guardsmen, although there were some very very useful veteran skills that were better than any doctrine we have now. For example, shooting twice with a heavy weapon if the first shot hit (nasty on heavy bolters), boobytrapping terrain, running and shooting.

The Guardsman's main benefit was that he modified armour saves by -1 with his lasgun, and he did not pay for armour himself; this was a huge factor. A good salvo of heavy bolter fire would wipe out a unit of Space Marines almost as easily as a unit of Guardsmen. While the tanks were very good, they were less necessary than today since the infantry already had more serious firepower than most opponents.

It has to be emphasized again that this was mainly thanks to the core rules, though. I mean, 2 Sentinels were almost guaranteed to kill a full squad of Space Marines in one turn and cost half as much.

A heavy weapon squad of 3 heavy bolters had a maximum kill capacity of 18 models plus the 3 loaders, twice as much as today, and Space Marines only had a 5+ save against those heavy bolter wounds...

Armour saves of 3+ meant that you'd get at best a 4+ or 5+ vs any basic weapon (even the lasgun) except the grot autogun and stuff like muskets and shotguns as well as some weak pistols.

Armour wasn't really worth having unless it was terminator armour, but most units paid through the nose for a 4+ (some Orks, Eldar, Scouts, sometimes Tyranid warriors) , 3+ (Marines, CSM, some Aspects) or 2+ (Khorne Berzerkers, Necrons).

As an example:
IIRC Mesh armour for Ogryns cost 3 points per model for a 5+ save that you almost never got, you'd be better off running them naked.

As for lasguns becoming more interesting - if they implement those "interesting" rules like the Chaos dreadnought, possessed, and Spawn, this means it will be S2 and explode in the Guardsman's face if he misses. :). Let's hope Mr Cruddace has a good idea.

Lord Solar Plexus
23-09-2008, 15:53
Guardsmen were a lot better in 2nd, LSP, but not by virtue of being guardsmen, although there were some very very useful veteran skills that were better than any doctrine we have now. For example, shooting twice with a heavy weapon if the first shot hit (nasty on heavy bolters), boobytrapping terrain, running and shooting.


Guardsmen were not any better in 2nd, they were worse. Without any upgrades, they could only shoot once, they had no armour (even though much pierces flak, everything S3 except frag grenades did in 2nd), they are a lot more resilient thanks to cover saves, and hitting 50 % of the time is better than hitting on 5's and 6's. Stormtroopers were regular Guardsmen with S4 guns. There were no BS 4 Vets etc.

I do not deny that there were some nice skills (slick crew for the win!) but S3 boobytraps were gadgets at best.



The Guardsman's main benefit was that he modified armour saves by -1 with his lasgun, and he did not pay for armour himself; this was a huge factor.


A -1 ASM was at the bottom of the food chain, so there's no relative difference. How do you know that he didn't pay for armour? Wasn't it priced into his base cost? Anyways, I imagine it was a huge factor - he'd die even easier, and that's saying a lot.



A good salvo of heavy bolter fire would wipe out a unit of Space Marines almost as easily as a unit of Guardsmen.


That only tells me that the concept of power armour didn't work in 2nd.


I mean, 2 Sentinels were almost guaranteed to kill a full squad of Space Marines in one turn and cost half as much.


Could you bring me up to date how one would do that? I assume you're talking about assault cannon sentinels? How did you even hit 10 times at BS2 (BS3 - cover)? How did you avoid jamming with that many sustained fire dice?



A heavy weapon squad of 3 heavy bolters had a maximum kill capacity of 18 models plus the 3 loaders, twice as much as today, and Space Marines only had a 5+ save against those heavy bolter wounds...


Uh...perhaps. How often did you see 9 dice roll a 3 and not a single jam? It's a lot more likely to roll a jam for every HB than to get 9 shots. You forget that a game was only four turns and a jam would put the gun out of action for 1/4 of the game! You must compare 3 sustained fire dice for four turns with a chance to jam with 3 guaranteed shots over 5-7 turns and include the net BS.

Again this is just a case of using an example that seems to prove the point at first glance. I wonder why you didn't compare plasma guns (including the chances to hit on the usual battlefield please - I can hit on 3's these days!) instead because that shows a completely different picture...

Eversor
23-09-2008, 16:07
Guardsmen were a lot better in 2nd, LSP, but not by virtue of being guardsmen, although there were some very very useful veteran skills that were better than any doctrine we have now. <snip>

Although I agree with some of your statements, I have to call hogwash on this ;) Imperial guardsmen have always been naff, and mostly useful for cannon fodder. Even with the 2:nd edition veteran skills, their only saving grace were heavy weapon teams and thrown frag grenades. If they ever made it that far.

Bloodknight
23-09-2008, 16:31
I didn't compare plasma guns because these followed a different paradigm and were rarely played outside of Chaos forces. Imperial plasma weapons sucked badly, on Imps just as much as on Space Marines. I mean, shooting only every other turn with a modifier of -2 on plasma guns or only -1 on plasma pistols, when I can get a grenade launcher that does multiple damage with a higher ASM and 60" range?


Could you bring me up to date how one would do that? I assume you're talking about assault cannon sentinels? How did you even hit 10 times at BS2 (BS3 - cover)? How did you avoid jamming with that many sustained fire dice?

Of course I am talking about assault cannon sentinels. There was no other armament available, unless you modified it with the precursor of the VDR from Dark Millennium which I've never seen on the table as being accepted. ;)

If you're going to factor in cover, I am going to factor in the +1 to hit modifier at 12" of the assault cannon ;). Also, a Sentinel was BS4 thanks to the inbuilt targeter, and you only had to hit twice, not 10 times. The number of hits via sustained fire dice is determined after hitting in the first place.



Without any upgrades, they could only shoot once, they had no armour (even though much pierces flak, everything S3 except frag grenades did in 2nd), they are a lot more resilient thanks to cover saves, and hitting 50 % of the time is better than hitting on 5's and 6's

Without any upgrades, nobody except Space marines could fire more than once, and SM only if they didn't move. Since you've been mentioning cover before: not getting hit in the first place is better than cover saves. If the SM in your example get cover, the IG in mine gets, too, and then even the mighty space marines would only hit them on 4 and 5, and would like the echo a lot less than today.



@Eversor: well, at least they felt a lot more useful, but you are right. I can't remember to have used lasguns vs opponents that came into the Guardsmen's frag grenade threat range of 12", or 16" with the running skill (which I usually only bought for flamer equipped squads, though). I can't agree on the cannon fodder part, though. Guardsmen posed enough of a threat to be dealt with. If they didn't they'd have been a lot more worthless since you could not use them to shield HW-Squads because you couldn't fire through your own units, which was a general weakness of meatshield units in 2nd - your own stuff could not shoot through the meatshield as well...

And frankly, nobody played tactical squads of any kind anyway unless he had to. IG fielded a few bullet catchers with frag grenades to get to the gravy, and Space Marines didn't bother with tac marines at all since they could field Devastators and Terminators as troops, too. Devastators were BS5 due to their targeters, and Terminators were ridiculously tough (and BS5+1).

Lord Solar Plexus
25-09-2008, 12:32
Although I agree with some of your statements, I have to call hogwash on this ;) Imperial guardsmen have always been naff, and mostly useful for cannon fodder. Even with the 2:nd edition veteran skills, their only saving grace were heavy weapon teams and thrown frag grenades.

Flamers on overwatch against charging gaunts were pretty ace, too, although that wasn't a guardsman specialty.


I didn't compare plasma guns because these followed a different paradigm and were rarely played outside of Chaos forces. Imperial plasma weapons sucked badly


That's precisely my point: Plasma has improved drastically, the rest is irrelevant trivia. You stated that Guardsmen were better because a certain weapon system was better (which isn't true). As is plain to see, other weapon systems were worse, so it's a wash.

[Side note: GL's were move-or-fire-crap and CSM plasma could explode]



Of course I am talking about assault cannon sentinels. There was no other armament available

Are you sure? It's been a long time so I might mix some things up. I thought the multilaser sentinel had been around already.



Also, a Sentinel was BS4 thanks to the inbuilt targeter, and you only had to hit twice, not 10 times. The number of hits via sustained fire dice is determined after hitting in the first place.


Was determined. Anyways, you're right. That's what I get for using stupid house rules.



Without any upgrades, nobody except Space marines could fire more than once, and SM only if they didn't move.


Getting double the number of shots for free is still better. I'm not talking about anyone else, just trying to get to the bottom of the notion why you think Guardsmen were better.



Since you've been mentioning cover before: not getting hit in the first place is better than cover saves. If the SM in your example get cover, the IG in mine gets, too, and then even the mighty space marines would only hit them on 4 and 5, and would like the echo a lot less than today.


That's what you claim but I'm still at a loss as to why. Nowadays I have at least some BS4, my guardsmen shoot more with lasguns, and are better shots. Yes, some changes affect everyone but even then the relative power stays the same. There's of course always the chance I was a complete dud at tactics and list making back in 2nd...:cries:

Let's look at the statistics to see whether THM are better than cover saves:
10 2nd ed SM, rapid firing = 20 shots = 10 hits (assuming -1 THM, otherwise 13.3) = 6.7 wounds (8.9), no saves

10 5th ed SM, rapid firing = 20 shots = 13.3 hits = 8.8 wounds = 4.4 dead guardsmen (2.93 with Cameleoline)

Ergo, cover saves are better than a measly -1 modifier (though a -2 but no Cameleoline would change the picture somewhat, it's a pretty hefty penalty for BS 3 troops, so what echo should the marines fear?)

10 2nd ed SM, single shot, -1 THM = 10 shots = 5 hits = 3.3 dead guardsmen

10 5th ed SM, single shot = 10 shots = 6.7 hits = 4.4 wounds = 2.2 dead guardsmen

Predictably, cover is again better or at least just as good. To be fair, there used to be a vet skill that added another -1 THM, which, combined with being behind hard cover would be -3...but then one could argue that there's Camo cloaks in a bunker, or Camo + go to ground.

If I lose only half the guardsmen than before or, in a worst case scenario, the same number, then my guardsmen are better or the same.



And frankly, nobody played tactical squads of any kind anyway unless he had to.

Indeed. Oh, and my Long Fangs/Wolf Guard Termis were BS 6.

Bloodknight
25-09-2008, 13:06
That's what you claim but I'm still at a loss as to why. Nowadays I have at least some BS4, my guardsmen shoot more with lasguns, and are better shots. Yes, some changes affect everyone but even then the relative power stays the same. There's of course always the chance I was a complete dud at tactics and list making back in 2nd...

I'd probably have to play a game again, I think. I used to win a lot in 2nd (except against Tyranids...:rolleyes:), that may have clouded my judgment. Especially since my Guard used to field excessive amounts of heavy bolters and autocannons that would just eat through enemy infantry ;). Let's just say they felt better.
As for the Sentinel: I am sure. The datafax only states assault cannon with no options.


Was determined.

Sorry, I had lost my train of thought and changed the tempus. That was pretty picky of you, though ;).

Lord Solar Plexus
25-09-2008, 13:20
I'd probably have to play a game again, I think. I used to win a lot in 2nd (except against Tyranids...:rolleyes:), that may have clouded my judgment. Especially since my Guard used to field excessive amounts of heavy bolters and autocannons that would just eat through enemy infantry ;). Let's just say they felt better.


See, different metagame - I won considerably more in 4th and 5th. I feel that not guardsmen, but Exarchs, CSM charas and those ?"/§/!"& pulsar rockitz were a lot stronger.

God, how I hated pulsar rockitz...I don't think I got off more than half a dozen shots each game.



As for the Sentinel: I am sure. The datafax only states assault cannon with no options.


Okay. Oh, I agree, sentinels were a lot better (excepting the HF version in close proximity to some Orks).



Sorry, I had lost my train of thought and changed the tempus. That was pretty picky of you, though ;).

Never mind, it's not important. Bin nur so drüber gestolpert.

Bloodknight
25-09-2008, 13:31
Exarchs,

Damn warp spider gear...


CSM charas

I think fighty characters were not that good. I mean, you were not obliged to swamp them, so a character could spend most of the battle killing 4 guardsmen.



and those ?"/§/!"& pulsar rockitz were a lot stronger.


Our Ork player used to field 6 of them. The metagame changed however after everybody else began to load up on characters with jump packs with virus and rad grenades. Games became so unfunny that he cut back to 3 and we stopped 1st turn killing half his army ^^