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polexenes
19-09-2008, 21:59
i've been playing daemons since they came out but are to waac for my liking so i'm going to play an empire army instead, i was more drawn to the sigmarite style army but before i do i just wnated to know if there were any musts for an empire player thanks for any help

polexenes

Othiem
19-09-2008, 23:53
If you're planning on going above 2000 with them and are of the Sigmarite persuasion, I'd say War Altar is a must. If you want to play really competitively one might argue a Steam Tank is a must as well, but whether or not that brings you back to too much WAAC is up to you.

Makarion
20-09-2008, 00:43
I agree on the War Altar (the guaranteed access to the ItP spell from Lore of Light is priceless), but the steamtanks shouldn't be as stringent a requirement, even against hard armies.

Most Empire armies get a lot of benefit from a BSB, and the lack of uber-characters or monsters (not counting the Imperial Dragon) makes the VHS (Van Horstmann's Speculum) a very worthwhile choice. Other good magic items are the Rod of Power, Doomfire Ring, Icon of Magnus and Aldred's Casket of Sorcery.

Swordsmen are your most efficient infantry, and especially supported by handgunners and/or crossbows (both have their benefits) they can perform quite reliably. Unit sizes of 25-30 are about right.
With at least one warrior priest or arch lector, a single unit of flagellants are core as well, and I would certainly field them. I have not much experience with them though, but I would think that a unit size of 18 and up would be fine.

An often-overlooked benefit of the Empire is the core access to armour save 1+ cavalry. A unit or two (of 5 models) of heavy cavalry without upgrades makes for great flanking units, and they are cheap enough to sacrifice if needed. A unit of 5 Inner Circle cavalry with a warbanner and a warrior priest makes for an excellent hammer unit.

Pistoliers are efficient fast cavalry, and good enough to fight MSU-style infantry or other fast cavalry. Don't expect heroics, though. Outriders are worth their points and are a terrific shooting platform, but they do cost a special choice; the alternative choices for the special slots may be better, but it's quite personal whether you find them worthwhile.

Greatswords are flavourful, but although they are cheap for elite infantry and stubborn, they generally disappoint me and I don't field them.


Oh, and never leave home without at least 1 cannon :).

Mr.terminatorbob
20-09-2008, 02:14
I pefer crossbows over rifles. That extra 6 inches on the crossbow really helps reach out and snag the enemey, and get about two to four turns of shooting in.

IN my last game, my crossbowmen where deployed on a hill, and shout a yeomen unit to death on first turn, and took out half of a unit of Bretonion knights errants. Sure, it may be only -1 to the armour save, but I'd rather have a longer range and roll more dice than have more powerful guns.

DigbyWeapon
20-09-2008, 02:29
I think halberds are a good choice, over spearmen that is.

Digby

DGline
20-09-2008, 08:00
Mortars are a must. They are relatively cheap and can devastate most T3 armies, which is like half of them!

Kahadras
20-09-2008, 12:34
A Sigmarite army is an interesting way to go IMHO. I'd go for a standard Arch Lector build with a War Alter and Van Horstmann's Speculum. A BSB is probably a good idea and you could then take a couple of Warrior Priest to fill up the rest of your character choices to keep your theme going.

For core I'd look at getting a couple of deep block Swordsman units with detchments. These guys are pretty reliable and can really stand a great chance of winning combat thanks to the detachment rule. Pop a character in each unit and they should be a pretty tough nut to crack with the BSB nearby. For other troops choices I'd recommend units of 5 knights. These guys are great for sweeping away fast flanking units and catching enemy infantry units in the flank when they charge your battleline. Lastly I'd recommend taking a couple of units of crossbowmen to weaken enemy units. I tend to prefer these guys over handgunners due to their extra range.

For specials I'd take cannon (to deal with scary stuff like Dragons) and Pistoliers to work their way down your opponants flanks and harass enemy units with their pistols. A couple of cannon and a couple of small units of Pistoliers would work very well IMHO.

For rare I'd go for a couple of units of Flagellants (remembering that you can take a unit as core). These guys would work well as a tarpit unit and would work well with the background of your army. I'd recommend not going for a Steam Tank as they are boring and unimaginative IMHO.

Kahadras

sniperjolly
22-09-2008, 03:44
musts? WAltar, is just cheesy enough to be essential, not cheesy enough for anyone to notice or care and cool to boot! If you take one of those babies, 2 WPs, 1 Lvl 2 Wiz and as may bound spells you can lay your hands on, you start to look like TK, but with that unbreakable spell, not the incantation of summoning. ;)

I have heard, though not used it myself that 2 cannons, 2 helstorm rocket batteries are the ideal firebase for the empire, protected by 5 outriders with a BS 5 HLR

blocks of 25-30 swordsmen w/free company detachments are indeed the best blocks, followed closely by spearmen, with halbriders coming in at a (very) distant third.

run your non IC knights (do whatever with IC) in groups of 5, with nothing on them, but a mucisian, because that maximixes their strengths, just being bare bones doesn't make 1+ WS 4 calvalry any worse.

If you want cheese, bring 2 STanks and teh WAltar

Wook
30-09-2008, 00:11
It depends if you want theme over WAAC. Warrior priests only work if your army also has a wizard otherwise they have little chance of getting there prayers off. Two army concepts spring to mind the first is an all cavalry army representing a sigmarite order, 2-3 units of inner circle Knights 8-9 strong depending on characters with full commands, 3-4 units of normal knights without standards. A Grand master, A BSB and 2 mounted warrior priests. This army works quite well and can be fairly themed, especially if you take care to model the grand master, BSB and knights in a sigmerite fashion. The larger units of knights will not get to use the +1 rank bonus; the second rank is there to provide some more staying power and to make sure these units actually make it in to combat. The small units of knights are used in a similar role to fast cavalry and are fairly cheep. Pistolers would work better in game terms but are less theamed; you would also have to drop some of your inner circle units to normal knight status to free up the required special slots.

The second army and one I am working on at the moment, is theamed around the concept of an angry mob of villagers, who are sick of being used as cattle by the local vampire. The Lord is an arch lector on foot, with 3 warrior priests as heroes. 2 units of flagellants are taken as rare choices with 30 models in each if you have the points a third unit of flagellants is taken as a core choice. 2-4 units of militia make up the rest of the mob (with a priest in each) I am using the mordhiem villagers and angry mob models for these units. I have no ides of how this second army will work but it is going to look good.

Bringer of the red dawn
30-09-2008, 00:54
Ok, before you delude yourself, empire is a swarm army. plain and simple, you dont get as many models as skaven or goblins, but your troops are better by a margine,

the detachment system is an essential tool to use, it can win or loose you the game. Just for defensive purposes, have all your handgunners or Crossbowmen ( i would recoment crossbowmen over HGs as their extra range is very important) be detachments of one of ur infantry units.

If you are going for a sigmarite theme, which is a really nice theme, you have to remember that your Flaggelents are really prone to shooting. field them at 25+ so that they can take some shooting and can tolerate some sacrifices.

For your troop infantry blocks, try one or two units of 20-25 swordsmen with a crossbowmen detachment, and a freecompany detachment.

Now, the empire knights are important, but not game winning, so a unit or two of 5 is a good idea, but dont go all out.

specail, mortars are extremely powerful in games, able to dish out tons of damage to condensed battle lines. Cannons are good at bringing down those dragons and big beasties your army cant handle. also, consider Outriders, which are good but extremely difficult to use, then there is greatswords which i personally think are overpriced and inneffective.

Rare; stay away from the Hellblaster, chances are it will destroy itself twice every game if it kept firing, and you need to hit with it, so ehhh. Now, the Hellstorm is hard to use and requires skill, but can level entire untis if used right with little risk of the thing blowing up

Becuase of Sigmar theme, include one or two WP, but put them in your State troops, as they need the frenzy and his attacks. Silver Horn is fantastic, Aldreds Casket is great too, theres tons of usefull items, my suggestion is for 2000+ pts, One warrior priest, One BSB captain( BSB decked out properly and kept alive will win games for empire), One mage, and One Arch Lector on War alter.. but that gets expensive, so that will work best at 2500pts.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
30-09-2008, 17:03
Knights and their 1+ save makes difficulty for even my dragon princes to squish; the order knights have strength six on the charge. The volleygun is nasty too; i dont like playing against it. The tank would be fun in some games but if you dont like WAAC i would use it like i do teclis/ star dragon; because its ******* funny and having good opponents is always good for that. Flaggelants are the one break in human leadership so they would be good against hordes and stopping beasts like blood knights or fear causing people. As for rank and file yours are disposable; human lives are worthless anyway; they are short why not make them shorter! (a little asuryan arrogance jk i thought it was kind of funny ;) ) Greatswords have a good armour save, are stubborn, and have great weapons I would recommend them but I am one person....
Good luck :)

Dragon Prince of Caledor
30-09-2008, 17:03
when did freak - in become a bad work?

Kahadras
30-09-2008, 17:24
Rare; stay away from the Hellblaster, chances are it will destroy itself twice every game if it kept firing, and you need to hit with it, so ehhh.

Helblasters are still a good buy IMHO. They can blow themselves up pretty easily but if you get a couple of rounds of shooting off before that happens it can be devestating. I normaly place mine down where I can cover the center of my battleline while being out of LOS of my opponant. Tucking it behind a wood or a house is a good idea.

Normaly I'll wait till my opponant is within short range before firing. If you position well enough usualy you can get off two rounds of shooting against block infantry and even fairly average rolls sees you get off 16 shots. Over two turns this can add up to around 32 shots which is enough to rip a couple of ranks from an infantry unit. People are usualy intimidated by it as well. Once I got off a couple of good rounds of shooting against a High Elf player and he refused to go near the thing again even though it misfired itself to death in the next couple of games.

Kahadras

DarkRush21
01-10-2008, 06:11
I've seen the Pistoliers run havoc on the unprepared general, running behind the guy's units. They were marchblocked, and gunned in the behinds! It was quite humorous!

RossS
01-10-2008, 06:20
What's the consensus on the Rocket Battery? I'm thinking my Nuln army may need a shiny new artillery piece.

Kidjal
01-10-2008, 10:14
What's the consensus on the Rocket Battery? I'm thinking my Nuln army may need a shiny new artillery piece.



I like em, taken them alot since the new release and its never done me wrong.

See topic I started on general opinions.
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161840

polexenes
01-10-2008, 20:12
what do you think to a list like this

Arch Lector
Great weapon
Aldredís casket of sorcery
Van Horstmannís speculum
Armour of meteoric iron

Total 221pts

Warrior priest
Extra hand weapon
Heavy armour

Total 98pts

Warrior priest
Heavy armour
Shield
Silver horn
Sword of battle

Total 146pts

Captain
Full plate armour
Battle standard
Griffon standard
Barded warhorse

Total 152pts

Flagellants X25

Total 250pts

Swordsmen X 25
Full command
Detachment of 10 crossbowmen

Total 250pts

Swordsmen X25
Full command
Detachment of 10 crossbowmen

Total 250pts

Knights X9
Full command

Total 243pts

Pistoliers X5
Full command

Total 104pts

Cannon

Total 100pt

Mortar

Total 75pts

Hellstorm rocket battery

Total 115pts

Kalec
02-10-2008, 01:33
A regular warrior priest can carry the casket, so give it to someone else and give the lector the sword of sigisimund. ASF + VHS is essential to beating ASF characters with KB, and offers an extra layer of insurance against charging characters or HE fighty characters. Cut a couple knights from the big unit to pay for it.

Split the xbows into units of 5, to give you more options with screening and shooting at weaker enemy units.

Drop full command from the pistoliers, they only need a musician.

The xhw priest is just easy VP for the enemy. Not much protection, not much offense, but a whole lot of points. Give him a shield and barded warhose (dropping the xhw of course), or cut him.

I would also be tempted to trade the mortar and rocket battery for two more great cannons, since you have the special slots. Or, you could just drop the rocket battery for another mortar or cannon and help buff up your characters with the extras.

Von Wibble
03-10-2008, 18:21
Kalec, with his low I an empire character with Sword of Sigismund strikes after pretty much any other ASF model. I do not recommend this weapon.

If you are using VHS then Shield of the Gorgon is nice as it effectively means the enemy character has 1 attack. You do lose armour save for it though and can't have a great wepon. I quite like Sword of justice just for so many rerolls but the humble sword of might is also good if on a budget.

Knights imo should come in units of 8 maximum, including characters. (1 rank of 6 plus spares). A unit of 9 with character has only to lose 1 model to lose its rank bonus - and those back rankers aren't cheap. If the bsb is supposed to be with these its a bad choice - griffon standard is giving an extra +1 to CR (until you lose 1 model). This item is made for infantry units with their +3. Otherwise it might as well be a cheaper war banner.



Mortar just isn't worth it - you have plenty of things in the army that kill troops. Cannnons fill a role nothing else can so 2 in any army alongside pistoliers are imo essential. Personally I prefer the helblaster to the helstorm also - Helblaster is pretty much guaranteed to get kills ni the turn it fires at a unit which can't be said of the rocket launcher. That said, my misfire rolls tend to be 6s which means the target I go for is usually wiped out - a fair trade for my helblaster.

I face a lot of heavily armoured foes like chaos and elite vampire counts so prefer handguns somewhere in there. I would have 1 unit of these and 1 of crossbowmen for balance.

Makarion
03-10-2008, 18:43
I'd like to repeat that the war altar is good enough that there's no reason at all not to take it, once you take the arch lector. It'll also improve his defences a lot, with 2 points more armour save and a 4+ ward safe.

polexenes
03-10-2008, 19:46
so how about this ????

Arch Lector
Great weapon
Shield of the gorgon
Van Horstmannís speculum
Armour of meteoric iron
Ring of Volans
War alter

Total 331pts

Warrior priest
Extra hand weapon
Heavy armour
Aldredís casket of sorcery
Sword of might

Total 148pts

Warrior priest
Heavy armour
Shield
Silver horn
Sword of battle

Total 146pts

Captain
Full plate armour
Battle standard
Barded warhorse

Total 98pts

Flagellants X25

Total 250pts

Swordsmen X 25
Full command
Detachment of 5 crossbowmen
Detachment of 5 crossbowmen

Total 250pts

Swordsmen X25
Full command
Detachment of 5 Handgunners
Detachment of 5 Handgunners

Total 250pts

Knights X5
Full command
Inner circle
Banner of the daemon slayer

Total 220pts

Pistoliers X5
Musician

Total 97pts

Cannon

Total 100pts

Cannon

Total 100pts


Grand total 1990 pts

Is this list better if not how can i make it even more sigmarish. If so how would you recomend using it ???/


polexenes

Makarion
03-10-2008, 23:57
The armour of meteoric iron is a bit wasted on the war altar - I'd go for Dawn Armour and it's rerollable 2+ armour save, 4+ ward save. (You can exchange the Gorgon shield for an enchanted shield if you want a rerollable 1+ armour save).

I'm personally not font of the Ring of Volans, as it is only a one-time shot. The Doomfire Ring and Aldred's Casket are both excellent though, if you want to boost your magic phase. The Silver Horn looks good to me as well.

I would put at leats one of your warrior priests on a warhorse, so he can ride with the knights and lend them hatred. The BSB is good on a warhorse, but park him in your infantry line - swordsmen are an excellent bunker.

All in lal, this looks like a very nice list. The theme is represented in force, and you have probably enough DD that the lack of scrolls (and Rod of Power) is survivable.

If you want to strengthen the Sigmarite element, consider swapping one detachment per swordsmen unit for archers. They are commoners, and the common folks joining the crusade is pretty classic Sigmarite. They also fulfil a useful role in that they skirmish - you can string them out in front of your infantry blocks to redirect charges, and act as a missile screen. With some luck, you'll get a kill, too, although I wouldn't count on that too fervently.

Kalec
04-10-2008, 02:09
Kalec, with his low I an empire character with Sword of Sigismund strikes after pretty much any other ASF model. I do not recommend this weapon.


Good thing VHS lets him swap his I with his opponents, now isn't it?

Von Wibble
04-10-2008, 18:44
Good point - in challenges. Which won't happen until the enemy unit champion is dead - who in their right mind accepts empire challenges knowing of VHS?

Makarion
04-10-2008, 19:07
That makes me wonder... Would the VHS become much stronger with some hochland rifles in the army? It doesn't take a lot to kill most champions.