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40kdhs
21-09-2008, 15:37
I have 2 models left: champion and banner guy (not BSB). If i fail a save, can I pick and choose who dies first? In this case, who will die first?

Thank you.

Lord Zarkov
21-09-2008, 17:12
You can choose who dies.

Lord Dan
21-09-2008, 17:45
I would choose depending on the circumstance.

For instance, if there's a high liklihood that another unit of yours will be able to intervene on the combat in the following turn, take out the champion and attempt to save the standard (thus preventing your opponent from that automatic 100 points).

Otherwise I always have my champion fight to the death.

The Red Scourge
21-09-2008, 17:55
You can't choose. The standard bearer is always the last to go.

Dark_Mage99
21-09-2008, 17:56
I believe unless the champ is specifically targetted in this instance, only the standard can die.

theunwantedbeing
21-09-2008, 18:04
The champion is always the last model to die if the unit is attacked and no attacks are aimed at him.

As he is effectively a character within the unit, so cannot be killed unless attacks are directed at him(unless enough wounds are dealt to kill the entire unit, then he is removed as well of course).

No choice, champion dies last if not specifically attacked.

Oberon
21-09-2008, 18:11
Unless the wounds came by shooting attacks, when some of them should have been taken by the champion. Or the single hit should have been randomized between the two survivors.

theunwantedbeing
21-09-2008, 18:18
If the standard bearer is hit and killed by shooting, you cannot chose to have the champion suffer the wounds instead.

Braad
21-09-2008, 18:22
@ Lord Dan
If the standard dies, but the unit is not defeated yet and does not break or is destroyed, the banner is lost and no victory points are taken. So, in an unbreakable unit it would be better if the standard died first.

About the main question, all I can find in the big book (page 80-81) on command groups, is in the second column on page 81, halfway the champion section. It says a champion is killed when attacks are directed against him, or if enough wounds are done to wipe out the whole unit. So, the whole unit means the standard bearer first, otherwise not the whole unit is destroyed.

Tarax
22-09-2008, 07:48
I think you can choose which model will die first. As a champion is still rank-and-file, just with some character-like abilities.

In close combat you can direct some attacks against the champion, in which case he will suffer the wounds. But if you attack the unit and cause enough wounds to kill models of the command group, you can choose which one(s) will die. Although now you have a choice.

If you are shot at and suffer enough wound to wipe out the unit, the champion dies also. If you have 5 or less other r-a-f models besides the champion, you must randomise and the champion can die before other models. If the unit suffers enough wounds to leave just one or two models (ie part of the command group) I think you can choose between them.

Valaraukar
22-09-2008, 07:55
I disagree I think Braad has the right of it, unless randomised from shooting or directed against him in CC he only dies when the whole unit is wiped out which means he must be the last model to go.

Dark_Mage99
22-09-2008, 10:29
theunwantedbeing has already answered the question: Valaraukar has it right.

Atrahasis
22-09-2008, 11:04
Agreed. Unless the attack was directed at the champion, the standard bearer dies.

Eidan
22-09-2008, 13:39
My first intention was, that you can choose who dies. But i agree with Valaraukar.

Tarax
23-09-2008, 09:17
Besides arguments going either way, can someone give any rules reference?

I know I didn't. That's why I said 'I think...'

Valaraukar
23-09-2008, 09:25
Pg 81. in the command group section under the champion heading it says 'If the unit suffers enough wounds to kill every model in it, the champion is removed together with his comrades, being after all a rank-and-file model.' It is not terribly clear but to me as it says enough to kill every model in it this suggests he is the last to go or it would need to say something like every model except for any members of the command group or some such.

Tarax
24-09-2008, 06:40
Pg 81. in the command group section under the champion heading it says 'If the unit suffers enough wounds to kill every model in it, the champion is removed together with his comrades, being after all a rank-and-file model.' It is not terribly clear but to me as it says enough to kill every model in it this suggests he is the last to go or it would need to say something like every model except for any members of the command group or some such.


While this is not difinitive, I also thought this was only about shooting, not close combat.
(I'm still not agreeing, but also not disagreeing. I'll just re-read that part.)

Valaraukar
24-09-2008, 09:01
Yeah it really isn't very clear what happens when you get down to just command group, only the champion can be killed directly but if not killed directly it reads to me that he should be the last one to go. Which order do the musician and std bearer go in though? I thought before musician would go first but on re-reading it just says that for both normal models are removed first so do you get to choose between them?

Arnizipal
24-09-2008, 10:47
What happens to the standard if the standard bearer is killed and the champion is the sole survivor of his unit?
Does the champion pick it up (as he is a rank and file model and thus allowed to do so if the original standard bearer dies) or can't he because he is a champion?

theunwantedbeing
24-09-2008, 10:52
The champion cannot pick up the standard, so the standard is lost.
In exactly the same manner as how the musician is lost, the champion cannot pick up whatever instrument he has.

Arnizipal
24-09-2008, 11:17
Does it specifically say that somewhere in the BRB?
All I can find is that the champion counts are rank and file for all intents and purposes (which means he could pick up the standard) except that he can issue and accept challenges and gets a Look Out Sir roll.

Valaraukar
24-09-2008, 11:21
It says you always remove an ordinary warrior (as a new warrior is assumed to have picked up the std.)instead when a model is killed instead of the std. bearer however when you're down to command group you have no ordinary models so this rule ceases to apply then you have to start removing members of the command group and thus losing their abilities you cannot have several of there sets of special rules rolled into one model.

Arnizipal
24-09-2008, 14:44
Ah, ok just checking.
I seem to remember there being some abiguity about it in 6th edition.