PDA

View Full Version : Thousand Sons, Theories on Betrayal anyone?



Typharius
22-09-2008, 02:48
I don't know if this may have been posted before, if so indulge me by showing me where but my question is this:

At the time of the great crusade when Magnus sent his psychic warning to the Emperor at devastating cost, was he already walking down the path of chaos perhaps even unknown to himself? perhaps gently influenced by Tzeentch. Or was he in fact still completely loyal? this has caused me to stop and think a few times, it always galled me the way Magnus was given (seemingly) little choice about which side he would take in the Heresy, manipulated by Horus as he was. Had the Emperor received the warning in better circumstances would Magnus have stayed loyal to his cause? and if so what bearing on the Heresy would this have had?

If anyone has any interesting facts about the Thousand sons (excluding mentions in Battle foe the Abyss and Visions of Treachery art books, or the very plausible theory of the Blood Ravens being descendants of them) feel free to share. Thanks.

PondaNagura
22-09-2008, 03:21
hmm, he was loyal in his intents to warn the Emperor of Horus betrayal, but it was his last mistake...it shattered what the Emperor had been trying to do, by avoiding sorcery.
apparently there's a subtle difference at this point in imperial history, between sorcery and psychic powers, the former must cut corners that resemble magic/rituals too much and thus very dangerous to dabble in.

it's plausible that Tzeentch was waiting for Magnus to slip far enough to twist him, if anything Magnus was a pawn in the affair, too naive to fully know what he was doing. which is what always puzzled me, for when the wolves attacked, for someone with such great intentions would have just fled Prospero, and make a sutible defense; rather than completely side with the brother you had tattled on?

WrYpoRrY
22-09-2008, 04:54
Tzeentch works in mysterious ways. Maybe Magnus saw the wolves arrive and figure that they might as well use what psychic talent they have and Chaos would leave them alone, but didn't know that this was how Tzeentch operated. Tzeentch was able to manipulate him like this and eventually Magnus fell under his influence.

Chaplain Muller
22-09-2008, 09:46
Well, Magnus was desperate to save his Legion from the Wolves, and Tzeentch offered a way o save them, which proves that simple approaches are often the best approaches.

Whitehorn
22-09-2008, 10:16
Horus stated that Magnus was one of the biggest threats to his 'new crusade'. This suggests he wasn't part of the big plan. Typically with GW this can go either way and be interpreted a hundred-fold.

Add in Ahriman trying to protect the legion from the taint of chaos.. I feel they're just caught in a cross-fire and chose the only path available for them to survive.

Messiah
22-09-2008, 14:20
Id like to think its like in the old fluff, Magnus was loyal until the end of prospero, and only then did he cry out for help from anyone, and Tzeentch answered.
Tzeentch might have been behind it all, but Tzeetnch was guiding Horus and Russ, not Magnus. Thats my opinion.

forthegloryofkazadekrund
22-09-2008, 14:48
imho i think that the thousand sons were completely loyal until they were betrayed by the emperor after trying to to save the imperium, if he had not sent the space wolves after magnus they would have turned the tide earlier and would have been vindicated in thier warning

if the emperor was so against psychic abilities, why when he was a psycher himself?

Faustburg
22-09-2008, 15:04
Id like to think its like in the old fluff, Magnus was loyal until the end of prospero, and only then did he cry out for help from anyone, and Tzeentch answered.


The ideas are absolutely not excluding each other, it has always been fairly clear that Magnus was loyal, and honestly wanted to warn the Emperor and save the day, but he was unwittingly doing so according to Tzeench's plans.
Only recent changes has been that the Emperor had a hobby project building a webway portal in his basement.

He was tainted from birth, and his upbringing amongst mystics (also very possibly, aware of the fact or not, Tzeench cultists) on a secluded world did not help.

Thanatos_elNyx
22-09-2008, 15:37
The ideas are absolutely not excluding each other, it has always been fairly clear that Magnus was loyal, and honestly wanted to warn the Emperor and save the day, but he was unwittingly doing so according to Tzeench's plans.
Only recent changes has been that the Emperor had a hobby project building a webway portal in his basement.

He was tainted from birth, and his upbringing amongst mystics (also very possibly, aware of the fact or not, Tzeench cultists) on a secluded world did not help.

He wasn't the only one tainted at birth just look at Leman and Sang.

Leman, the Emperor and Magnus were all pawns in Magnus's fall but for his own part Magnus was completely loyal and only did what he did (at the Burning of Prospero) to save his legion.

But speaking of Battle for the Abyss, I wonder could Mhotep have passed his use of Sorcery off as Psychic powers? They are quite similar (the same rules in game and everything!) and Psychic powers were completely legal. Its not like the others would have been able to tell the difference. [...]

Messiah
22-09-2008, 16:17
He was tainted from birth, and his upbringing amongst mystics (also very possibly, aware of the fact or not, Tzeench cultists) on a secluded world did not help.

Thats the thing, according to the old fluff he wasnt tainted (apart from physically) from birth, in fact it was the ones that were physically perfect who were tainted within.

LexxBomb
22-09-2008, 16:58
ah proof that guilliman was corrupt

olmsted
22-09-2008, 17:11
you must remember though leman was just supposed to have his brother come with him to talk with the emperor. horus told leman to attack him.

PondaNagura
22-09-2008, 17:39
the Emperor was trained psyker, he had millenia to perfect control of his abilities. he wasn't against psykers, he just didn't trust the mindless masses of humanity to be left to their own devices, especially when they didn't know there were presences that could twist them. the naivete of psykers is like food for the gods.
like children on the internet, they could go there and learn all sorts of things, but they might be endangering themselves or the family computer by doing so.

apparently in the 40k universe, if you don't believe in something it'll go away. so not using sorcery, and denouncing the existence of these warp entities (chaos gods), will starve them, and they'll fade away.

Imperialis_Dominatus
22-09-2008, 17:58
ah proof that guilliman was corrupt

What, this?


in fact it was the ones that were physically perfect who were tainted within.

Doesn't follow completely, just because some of the so-called prodigal sons (Horus, Fulgrim, Lorgar) were tainted doesn't mean the others were.

There are more imaginative arguments to use against Guilleman.

totgeboren
22-09-2008, 18:14
As I understand it, the difference between sorcery and psychic powers is that sorcery is warp-power gained by tricking/binding/dealing with the warp or with daemons/creatures of the warp.
Psychic powers are something that you are born with, and taps into the raw power of the warp.
Viewed like that, its apparent that the psychers of the Thousand Sons legion didn't just train their innate powers, but gained a whole score of new powers, that could only be explained by sorcery.

Its like the mark of tzeentch. It is a warpbased power, but not something you are born with. Its something you have acquired by interacting with the warp.

I understand that this might view can be countered by some fluff, but atleast in part does it explain the difference between what say a Librarian and a Chaos Sorcerer do.

It the Battle for the Abyss, the TS dude used artifacts imbued with warp-based powers. Not something he was born with, and also when he used his spear thingy. Those kinds of things are regarded as sorcery.

Force weapons seem to be some special form of sorcery allowed by the imperium, maybe because the weapons themselves are not really imbued with the powers of the warp, but work more like a conduit for the psycher.


hmmm, well, what im trying to say it that the council of nikea resulted in magnus basically being bitch-slapped infront of all his brothers and his legion, because he was infact dealing with sorcery, and many within his legion were doing like-wise.

He would have turned against the Emperor soon enough, either by being corrupted, or by his own free will to prove the Emperor wrong.

In a way, he turned against the Emperor the moment he tried to warn him using sorcery. He disobeyed a direct order, and by doing that caused untold damage to the Emperors work.

ryng_sting
22-09-2008, 18:19
Magnus was stitched up from start to finish. He was a naif, and Chaos preyed on it. If he'd done as the Emperor ordered him, he might have been fine.

FashaTheDog
22-09-2008, 19:35
Where can I find more information regarding Nikea and if Librarians were allowed in the Legions or if that was a post-Hersey concession made to combat the powers of the Warp. I have heard it that Nikea banned all psykers, including the Librarians, but I also heard it said that there was a line drawn between scorcery and psyker pwers. I know that the Word Bearers had Librarians before the Hersey, but it seems a little less taboo to defy that edict when you secertly worshipped the Emperor (and possibly start the Imperial Cult and create miracles through Keeler) and then changed to worshipping the Chaos gods before betraying the Emperor because he wouldn't let you worship him.

Khaine's Messenger
22-09-2008, 21:01
I have heard it that Nikea banned all psykers, including the Librarians, but I also heard it said that there was a line drawn between scorcery and psyker pwers.

The "Librarian Compromise" is from the Thousand Sons IA article. The banning of Librarians is from the HHCCG background and the HH book series.

Anyway.

Magnus is an interesting case. He's almost a textbook case of good intentions and hubris paving the road to hell. And just as well, he serves to illustrate the point that even if everything you do is right (or can be seen as "the correct decision" barring a few unknown circumstances), you can still fall to Chaos. The setting can be utterly unforgiving, and it's cases like Magnus' that "modern" Inquisitors like Karamazov get flak over and require answers like "better a thousand innocents die than a single heretic live." The schemes of the Ruinous Powers are absolutely maddening to the minds of mortals.

Mhotep from BftA is actually interesting as a counterpoint. He saw the way the winds were blowing and spat in the eye of fate. But even then, Tzeentch is ever self-defeating. Like I said. Maddening.

hellharlequin
22-09-2008, 21:36
IMHO I don't think that the TS view themselves as betrayers to the Imperium.
To themselves the Imperium is the ideal to unite humanity. They saw that the Atheistic worldview the emperor wanted didn't work. Maybe the Insisted the message send did also insist the Emperor to chance course in the matter of religion. but after the wolves came and magnus cried for help they were forced to side with Horus and after post-heresy/post-Rubric-they try to unite humanity with a little help of the Chaosgods.
(and settle a grugde with some legions:D)

Now view from that POV that quote of Ahriman:
And what are the achievements of your fragile Imperium? It is a corpse rotting slowly from within while maggots writhe in its belly. It was built with the toil of heroes and giants, and now it is inhabited by frightened weaklings to whom the glories of those times are half-forgotten legends. I have forgotten nothing, and my wisdom has expanded far beyond mere mortal frailties

LexxBomb
23-09-2008, 03:36
What, this?



Doesn't follow completely, just because some of the so-called prodigal sons (Horus, Fulgrim, Lorgar) were tainted doesn't mean the others were.

There are more imaginative arguments to use against Guilleman.

im surprise you didn't pick up on my sarcasim.... your usually very good at telling when im joking.

Imperialis_Dominatus
23-09-2008, 04:03
im surprise you didn't pick up on my sarcasim.... your usually very good at telling when im joking.

Ah crabs. Sorry 'bout that, I must have been half asleep still.