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bluebugs
22-09-2008, 07:02
I never used to be a nurgle guy. I have always loved Tzeentch; Change, mutations, and magic. But it wasn't until recently that I picked up the Daemon Codex and read up on Nurgle and wow. I used to think that he was just a fat, ugly god to appeal to the less fortunate gamers. But now I see him as a craftsman sitting in a hot-tub of pus eating kimchi.

And then there's Tzeentch. Crafty and all knowing, consistently plotting and scheming. And his daemons are so full of character constantly warping and changing, spouting flames, riding on waves of energy. And Nurgle's daemons are so familiar. Plague bearers being fallen mortals (cycloptic zombies) Nurglings bringing small tokens to gain attention, and my favorite is the beast of nurgle. He's just a poisonous retriever. I can just see a plague bearer and beast playing fetch with a human head.

But to the point. Are Khorne and Slaanesh too bland? One is just all about pleasure and one is all about violence. Their daemons and followers don't seem to have much else going for them.

Valaraukar
22-09-2008, 07:27
Slaanesh is not just about pleasure but all sensation from pain to ecstasy, he is about depravity and vanity and he is also interesting as he is the dark prince the youngest of the gods and so is constantly vying for recognition etc. from the others to sate his insatiable pride.

Khorne is all about martial prowess and honour sort of like a samurai or something I like to think although filled with hatred and fury beyond bound, but he is certainly the most one dimensional and bland of the gods but he's still just kind of cool after all we're playing war games and he's the god of war there's got to be something appealing in that for you.

Koryphaus
22-09-2008, 07:31
Argh, nalf ninja'd!

Khorne is not just about violence - he is the ultimate warrior, the avatar of honour and martial prowess. He is also the god of doing things in the direct manner. Not only unthinking, savage violence (which he is as well, but I feel portrayed in this manner too often).

Slaanesh is not only pleasure - the Dark Prince is the god of excess, of pursuing a goal, any goal, to its very limits. He exemplifies the search for perfection, and also the enhancement of the senses. Noise Marines have had their pleasure centres linked to their eyes, ears and touch sensors, meaning they gain pleasure from any act, but must continually perform acts of greater extremes to get the same feeling.

I'm sure I haven't explained this very well and that other people can explain it better than me. Khorne and Slaanesh are indeed the things which you described, but that is not their entirety.

Khaine's Messenger
22-09-2008, 09:12
I think I get some of what you're on about. It's not that Khorne/Slaanesh is just a certain thing per se, it's the wee character-building snippets you see now and again, like you get a lot with the Tallymen (er, Plague Bearers) or bickering Horrors...sometimes even descriptions of what they do when they're not on the field of battle. And, shock, horror, it's not spending all their time tormenting damned souls with pointy bits. It's like they have lives. When you read about Bloodletters it proably just talks about how they kill stuff with some relish; when you read about Daemonettes it probably just talks about how they're seductive and carve up mortals like slaughtering puppies. Yawn. I haven't read the Chaos Daemons codex specifically, but I'd wager that's about the size of it. Feel free to correct me. And even special characters don't really capture it, because they're special or apart. Things like the Masque or Skulltaker fall flat.

Suffice to say, a lot of the spice in Khorne and Slaanesh come not from unit descriptions, but in how various authors (and gamers) have attempted to twist the lore to make interesting stories (and armies). Which is unfortunate, since not every gamer has the leisure time or the money to buy into GW's braintrust on the issue or tease out what would be a great way to approach the concept. Making the characterful gamer portrayals all the more special.

If you're the sort who likes in-character battle taunts, how far will KillMaimBurn or For The Blood God!! take you? It's just one of those things.

Neknoh
22-09-2008, 10:32
I would say that daemonically, Tzeentch and Nurgle are the most interesting as their demons are mirrored images of one another, Tzeentch is constantly changing whilst Nurgle is constantly deteriorating. Nurgle is also the god of love, trust and care which is where the plaguebeasts comes in as well as the nurglings being treated as cute by the other demons etc. Nurgle... just wants to help.


It's on the mortal side that Slaanesh and Khorne truly show their full spectrum and their darkness.

Let's grab a painter as an example of Slaanesh.

He starts painting a picture and finds that although it is perfect, it's cold to him, he needs something more in the picture. He adds to it by filling it with more and more details untill it's completely full. He now hangs it on the wall and starts painting outside of it just to fill it with more detail, with more excess. He starts adding stronger and stronger colours to it, he starts experimenting with the colours, and by now the wall is completely covered in such a detailed painting that there are details on every leaf on every bush, there are snakes and lizards climbing through the trees and the grass. The image itself has gotten more and more twisted, it's not showing a typical landscape or Virgin mary, it's turned into something akinn to the wall in the sixteenth chapter, but more grotesque, a twisted image of a demonworld basically. The painter however, is not pleased with the picture, it's not perfect despite the wall looking exactly like a window, you can basically reach into it, pick a flower and smell it. "Smell" thinks the painter, and starts filling the room with flowers, dirt and water to bring out the smell as he takes the painting to the adjoining walls and starts on the ceiling and the floor, at the same time. The picture grows bigger and bigger and it is still not perfect, to him, it almost looks as if though the picture is actually alive, he himself sees the picture as a portal into a demonworld, it consumes him completely. The painter, by now, has completed another wall and the ceiling, he's still got half the floor and one and a half wall left in the gigantic room, the flowers are long dead and the water they were stood in smells more of a mire, but he doesn't throw them away. The painter instead brings in more flowers, more fresh bowls of water... but it's not all the smells of the painting, the colours aren't strong enough, they aren't real or enticing enough any more. More smell is needed, he brings in a small, furred animal, could be whatever, and in order not to have it run around and disturb his (to him) living painting, he nails it to a table, the animal is still allive, its struggle against death, the smell of its urine and phesis, all add to the picture, it gets more realistic.

The animal has died by now, it's started to rot, the stench hangs thickly in the air and our artist is badly malnourished, his own phesis gathered in a pile, he uses it, and the fluids from the rotting meat as well as some of his own blood to keep on painting. He uses his fingers now, not the brushes, they were destroyed long ago. A week ago, his grown up daughter came to visit him, she's currently lying tied down on the painted floor, constantly drugged by him in order for her to spread what he calls "the scent of woman" in the room, he uses varying drugs that he can get from the dealers in the nearest city, both to pleasure her immensely and to torment her even more, all for the sake of sound and smell... and texture. After another few weeks, the painting is done.... but ut still lacks something, everything in the room is painted, the last wall even incorporates his own blood and phesis. His daughter is close to death, he himself is barely more than bones but something has kept him alive, he has tatooed and painted every piece of his own body except for his eyes, but it's not perfect, the painting is not complete. The painter then realises what is missing, it's on the original painting, the skinn of the lady within it, it's not real, it must be real to the touch, at least that one bit, the heart of the masterpiece. Whilst she is still alive, he grafts the skinn off of his daughter's body, she dies sometime during the process, he doesn't care, her jibbering and moaning didn't fit with the painting anymore anyhow. The painter covers the skin on the original motif with the skin of his daughter and the masterpiece is complete, he is inside of his own world. What one can see now would be a wonderful painting that merges into a wall that is comprised of the most beautiful work a man could ever see, however, as it spreads onto the other walls, the ceiling and the floor, it gets more and more depraved or excessive, the colours on some parts are so garish they would actually CAUSE your eyes to bleed, bodily fluids, phesis, rotted meat all make up components of the colours or the painting itself, the flowers on the tables are long dead, long decayed, nothing but a stench that would cause you to lie on the floor, spasmic and throwing up. The painter however, the painter doesn't notice the stench, it's a small breeze for him, he hasn't been touched in ages and as such, even a brush of hair would be extatic to him. The painter sits down in the middle of his art, it's perfected, but only for a second, before he notices that there is something missing, he doesn't know what it is... but its something... the demons he painted, the faces, the eyes.... they aren't there anymore, they've moved around inside the painting.

The painter dies inside the room, he could be killed by demons, he could take his own life because it would complete the picture, he could just sit there and waste away. The painting could either be merely a painting, it could be a portal for demons to enter the world or it could even transform the entire planet into the landscape depicted on it.

THAT my friend, is an example of a fall to Slaanesh.
Should I do Khorne as well?

Verm1s
22-09-2008, 10:52
No. I think you enjoyed that too much. And that's a pretty rapid fall. It looks like it happened in the first couple of lines - everything after is pretty much fallen already. I wouldn't call it a fall to Slaanesh, so much as a blow to the head.

And it's the Sistine Chapel, not the sixteenth chapter :wtf:; and faeces, not phesis. I've seen some spellun mistayx in my time, but that's a doozy.

Shamfrit
22-09-2008, 10:56
Neknoh has finally sniffed too much Primer....

Although it's a very convincing and intricately written piece.

Neknoh
22-09-2008, 11:00
A fall over a few months? I'd say it isn't too quick, I've read falls that lasted over a day or two. And I so so SO humbly appologise for not being able to spell Faeces properly as well as getting the name of the Sistine chapel (too tired so I merely made direkt word by word englification (appareantly it wasn't a translation according to you) of the swedish name; "Sixtinska Kapellet") wrong seeing as I am not even english, yes, such horrible things.

The point is, that is a fall to Slaanesh that isn't all "sex and leathery whips", there are other Slaaneshi falls as well, we have food, we have sculpture, bodily perfection, acting, touch, ANYTHING that can be made better is a possible fall to Slaanesh, why do you think the Eldar gave BIRTH to the thing!

ArtificerArmour
22-09-2008, 11:01
The fluff on khorne is really contradictory. He eshews magic and cowardly tactics of fighting from afar...but also builds huge daemon engines - brass scorpions, towers of skulls, cannons of khorne - all of which had huge freaking guns.

Neknoh
22-09-2008, 11:04
Actually, fighting from afar isn't the problem, it's fighting through hiding your weapons that is. Magic, sorcery, psychic powers, they can't be seen untill they hit you.

Basically, a huge **** gun on top of an even bigger brass monstrosity is a lot less subtle than your arm warping to a flamethrower just as your opponent thinks he'll defeat you.

ArtificerArmour
22-09-2008, 11:08
What annoys me - Khorne uses magic. He has to. His huge tank that reknits itself back together - that's magic. It is against the laws of our realm so is technically a magic. Anything that uses the warp - that's magic - summoning is a magic. Sacrifices is a magic - it's backwards. He hates it, but he needs it.

Neknoh
22-09-2008, 11:12
Khorne DOESN'T hate magic.

Khorne hates the TRICKERY of Magic, unstoppable killing machine is fine, someone really small and brittle being as powerful as the mighties of warriors is nothing but underhanded deceit :p

ArtificerArmour
22-09-2008, 11:57
Khorne DOESN'T hate magic.

Khorne hates the TRICKERY of Magic, unstoppable killing machine is fine, someone really small and brittle being as powerful as the mighties of warriors is nothing but underhanded deceit :p

Then why can't khorne daemon princes take warp time? :p

Neknoh
22-09-2008, 12:06
Khorne doesn't like Matrix I guess

MrBigMr
22-09-2008, 12:23
Then why can't khorne daemon princes take warp time? :p
Because it's about manipulation of time instead of a big sword that can cut a man in half and fanged tentacles that suck his blood out in a flash.


Of all the gods I dislike Khorne and Nurgle the most. I do like the idea of a samurai style "the quest for perfection is eternal" mentality warriors, but GW has made them more into frenzied a-holes with big guns and swords. Really not my cup of tea that sort of macho BS. Nurgle. The idea is fine, but I don't like the rusty, oozing look of it all. It's like made for all the kids that liked to roll in mud and torture flied.

I like Tzeentch and Slaanesh. Tzeentch has nice stuff, but I'm not so hot for the whole spasming blobs of daemon flesh and eternal mutation of everything all the time forever. Which brings us to Slaanesh. As many has stated, Slaanesh is about what ever you like. Most like sex, but ever heard anyone say "X is better than sex!" (not 'X' as in the drug, but 'X' as in "insert thing") So if you get amazing kicks from speed (again, not the drug, just "going very, very fast"), danger, what ever, Slaanesh gets power from it. And the more depraved you get and the more and more you do it, the more Slaanesh feeds on you.

So imagine some adrenaline junkie. Always pushing for greater and greater stunts, never getting enough of the rush. Then he starts to loose perspective. He wants more and more and in the end he'll go too far and get killed.

That's Slaanesh. At least for me. And in the old Hordes of Chaos army book it's said that many worship Slaanesh for charisma, for power (as in political power). The great lords have an aura of gravitas that makes people around them follow their lead without question. Imagine that whole Thulsa Doom thing in Conan the Barbarian.

Thulsa Doom: Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! Look around you. There, on the rocks; a beautiful girl. Come to me, my child...
[coaxes the girl to jump to her death]
Thulsa Doom: That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it? Look at the strength in your body, the desire in your heart, I gave you this! Such a waste.

In a way, even a Khorne worshiper that get great satisfaction from battle (remember, this is how Lucius is able to live forever) and the more and more he falls into blood lust, the act will also fuel Slaanesh.

ThousandPlateaus
22-09-2008, 21:06
Khorne is a terrible dullard: easily the most banal of them all, I'm not even sure where this idea of him representing martial prowess comes from, it's not in any fluff I've ever read. He's simply just the urge to kill writ large, blood spilt just because... yawn.

Slaanesh on the other hand is fantastic, although I would agree with as has been asserted: his power over mortals is considerably more interesting than his daemonic kingdom, which naturally can't be fleshed out too much due to the PG nature of GW's range (which is a terrible shame) - and not simply because it's 'kinky' but primarily, because it's debased.

Lord Zarkov
23-09-2008, 12:44
The Martial Prowess stuff for Khorne was from Realms of Chaos IIRC, when he was originally introduced. It's just been slowley diluted through the editions to the 'raagh kill' stuff we're left with now.
He was still about the prowess and honour during second ed 40k (along with the kill), slightly less so in 3rd etc

MrBigMr
23-09-2008, 16:40
Khorne is a terrible dullard: easily the most banal of them all, I'm not even sure where this idea of him representing martial prowess comes from, it's not in any fluff I've ever read. He's simply just the urge to kill writ large, blood spilt just because... yawn.
Khorne's bloodlust is the same as Slaanesh's decadence and so forth. It's the core of it all, and also the result when one's will is not strong enough. One can worship Khorne in order to get strength and endurance on the battlefield, but it has the bad thing that you will turn into a mindless killing machine.

I haven't read the 40K daemon codex, but does it have the bit about Khorne snatching great warriors into his real to do eternal gladiator battles and awarding the greatest of the greatest with daemonhood (whether they wanted it or not). There's a bit in the WHFB book about the possibility of a Bretonnian knight being taken away after defeating a bloodthirster (or was it two?) and doesn't the latest Grey Knight novel have a GK taken to a daemon world or something where he fights all sorts of things?

So I think that Khorne likes soldiers that are able to think for themselves, but ones that also do it for the right reason: they like it. Sort of like the bit in the new Rambo movie "admit it to yourself, you did it all for yourself."


Slaanesh on the other hand is fantastic, although I would agree with as has been asserted: his power over mortals is considerably more interesting than his daemonic kingdom, which naturally can't be fleshed out too much due to the PG nature of GW's range (which is a terrible shame) - and not simply because it's 'kinky' but primarily, because it's debased.
That is why the good lord invented fanfic. And BL forum threw me out for said fanfic. Not enough Marines/Guard pwning stuff it seems.

Kronos
23-09-2008, 19:07
Intresting thread here, I haven't read the 40k daemons codex but i do know some information about daemons in fantasy and well although they have different fluff theys till stand for the same thing. Khorne to me from a fluff point of view (as they always get the best minis) is the most bland of the gods, as i can't see much depth in him apart from "Blood rwaar skulls bigger rwaar", sorry if that upsets people but thats how i see him.

Tzeentch is little complex for my liking but he is definitlyfull of depth and character.

Slaanesh and Nurgle are my favourites from a fluff point of view, Nurgle's parental like insincts and his "not too bad just diseased" persona is very attractive, and very different and i like the whole parental aspect towards his daemons. Slaanesh's odd and disturbing nature is also very colourful, i like how every feeling wether joy or pain is met in equal awe, and not to mention his very dark persona/charcater were excess is always good.


I just wish that other gods of other races played more roles in the fluff instead of just being there. I know Eldar mention quite a bit of there Gods but i don't see them playing such a major part as the Chaos gods, of course besides C'Tan and the Emperor (but he's just an old man on a big seat really :p)

MrBigMr
23-09-2008, 20:31
I just wish that other gods of other races played more roles in the fluff instead of just being there. I know Eldar mention quite a bit of there gods but i don't see them playing such a major part as the Chaos gods, of course besides C'Tan and the Emperor (but he's just an old man on a big seat really :p)
Neva gonna happen really, since all the other races are just clay pigeons for the Marines to shoot at (seriously). The ration between human-xenos BL novels is 40 : 1. It was calculated in one thread.

I would like to see more non-human Chaos. I mean, it's suppose to be equal dammit! There has been alien races with strong connections to the Warp for millions of years before humanity even came down from the trees, let alone went up them. There's fluff about Chaos aliens and of playable aliens being influenced by Chaos, but only humans form the true Chaos force.

But that's how it's in WHFB as well. You got your Warriors of Chaos (human barbarians) and Beastmen (human muties). Only things you got in WHFB is the possible Khaine/Khorne connection, DE pleasure cults. Even the "Chaos Dwarfs" worship a thing outside of the big 4, a god of fire and shadow, or what ever it was called (gee, wonder where that thing came up from, they probably dug a little too deep...). Even their name should in reality be "Fire Dwarfs", or so I've been said.

That's about it.


Gods? Well, how many are there left in 40K? I mean, Khaine is in pieces, ol' Laughie is rolling on the webway floor, Isha is Nurgle's little bitch. The rest are consumed, C'Tan aren't Warp gods and the Emperor is rather stationary. The rest are dead and gone.

Dominus_Serui
23-09-2008, 20:43
Ultimatley you have to love Tzeentch because everything he puts into motion has a much higher reason than it originally appears...

Lord Zarkov
23-09-2008, 21:41
But that's how it's in WHFB as well. You got your Warriors of Chaos (human barbarians) and Beastmen (human muties). Only things you got in WHFB is the possible Khaine/Khorne connection, DE pleasure cults. Even the "Chaos Dwarfs" worship a thing outside of the big 4, a god of fire and shadow, or what ever it was called (gee, wonder where that thing came up from, they probably dug a little too deep...). Even their name should in reality be "Fire Dwarfs", or so I've been said.

To be fair in WHFB the Chaos Warriors themselves could just as easily be Elves as Humans, but I see your point. However there are vastly more humans than any other race so while their would be Aliens in non CSM chaos forces it would only be a few of each race in the entire army.

MrBigMr
23-09-2008, 21:51
To be fair in WHFB the Chaos Warriors themselves could just as easily be Elves as Humans, but I see your point. However there are vastly more humans than any other race so while their would be Aliens in non CSM chaos forces it would only be a few of each race in the entire army.
There ain't many Grey Knights around either and they have their own codex. There has been Chaos worshiping races in the fluff, not just renegades.


But at least I'm working to add plenty of different races into my (non-SM) Chaos army. There's Kroot, Squat/Demiurg, etc.

Messiah
23-09-2008, 21:52
Well, IMO, Nurgle and Tzeench are the two philosophical of the four, Khorne and Slaanesh being more physical. So it makes sense for N&T to have more interesting background, while K&S have more aesthetically pleasing (IMO) models for example.

Dominus_Serui
23-09-2008, 22:36
If you think that the Bloodthirster and Bezerkers are more asthetically pleasing than Rubrik Marines and Lords of Change...a head check is needed...

Valaraukar
23-09-2008, 22:43
You should check out the new characters for warriors of chaos to see what he means and the previous editions daemonettes.

Gdolkin
23-09-2008, 23:04
MrBigMr, I still haven't got around to reading all of your fanfic but from what I have read, and your posts in general, you're one of the most interesting and individual members of this site. Are there by any chance pictures of your Chaos army anywhere on warseer? You often mention them but i've not seen your ideas in model form..

Messiah, good observation. The philosophies, flavours and aspects of the human/sentient condition that the Big Four embody are, to my mind, the most substantial and interesting thing in all GW fluff. Rage, Pleasure, Hope and Despair, it really makes me think.. And I think that Khorne and Slaanesh should not be dismissed as less interesting than Nurgle and Tzeentch just because their 'core emotions' are more physically-based, so to speak.. True, Rage and Pleasure could be said to be more 'basic' or 'animal' than Hope and Despair, but there is as much potential for 'deep' interpretation there. I must obtain Liber Chaotica somehow someday, as MvS's posts about the depth and diversity of what the Gods stand for always grab my imagination.
I think it's possible to see or describe Khorne and Slaanesh as representing the destructive and creative aspects of sentient emotion, respectively. Thanatos and Eros, if you like, but that's not to say I hold Freudian analysis/interpretation as definitive of human/sentient minds, it's just one more way of looking at and talking about us..
Even though Khorne and Slaanesh are indeed mostly about "Raaargh smash!" and "Mmmmm, more!" in more recent canon background, there is still the possibility of 'deep' and interesting thought about that, is what I'm getting at, though somewhat failing to express.. Slaanesh in particular, The Lord of Excess, the essence of selfishness, self-indulgence, the drive to push yourself and your senses and appetites to extremes of experimentation, hedonism and experience, is philosophically and psychologically fascinating, and should never be reduced to "The Porn God, hurhur"..

Kronos
23-09-2008, 23:05
But that's how it's in WHFB as well. You got your Warriors of Chaos (human barbarians) and Beastmen (human muties). Only things you got in WHFB is the possible Khaine/Khorne connection, DE pleasure cults. Even the "Chaos Dwarfs" worship a thing outside of the big 4, a god of fire and shadow, or what ever it was called (gee, wonder where that thing came up from, they probably dug a little too deep...). Even their name should in reality be "Fire Dwarfs", or so I've been said.


I think he was called Hashut, and even then i don't think he was a chaos god at such was he ?....reminds me more of a lotr balrog (dwarves digging to deep etc.

also on the note of Chaos Aliens/Xeno it would make for an intresting army fueled by malicious chaos intent and not even trusting csm for being "human".

MrBigMr
24-09-2008, 10:13
MrBigMr, I still haven't got around to reading all of your fanfic but from what I have read, and your posts in general, you're one of the most interesting and individual members of this site.
And how are you doing'?


Are there by any chance pictures of your Chaos army anywhere on warseer? You often mention them but i've not seen your ideas in model form..
To tell the truth, I don't have a single model put together... No wait, strike that. I have my Chaos sorcerer model assembled, but not painted. But I have all the stuff I need in a bunch of huge piles everywhere. I've mostly been waiting for the new SM codex to start seeing what I'm to make. And also wanted to finish the fluff so that I'll know what to make.

But I'll get there. I'll make those conversions and all. Even if it kills me.


I must obtain Liber Chaotica somehow someday, as MvS's posts about the depth and diversity of what the Gods stand for always grab my imagination.
It's ok. Got the full set on sale. So far haven't gotten past the first volume. Only question I really have about it is when it talks about Chaos dwarfs in the section regarding monoliths, does it mean Chaos "Big Hat Dark" dwarfs, or true "Blood for the Blood God, Titties for the Porn God, Puss for Papa God, Change for the Hobo God" dwarfs?


Slaanesh... ...should never be reduced to "The Porn God, hurhur"..
I shouldn't? But daddy needs his sugar.


I think he was called Hashut, and even then i don't think he was a chaos god at such was he ?....reminds me more of a lotr balrog (dwarves digging to deep etc.)
I think Hashut falls into the area of elven gods, The Horned Rat, etc. There are many many gods within the Warp of WHFB, some "order" some "chaos". The big 4 are just... the biggest. If I remember correctly, their dwarfish name should translate as "fire dwarfs."

Gdolkin
24-09-2008, 16:30
[QUOTE=MrBigMr;2962291]And how are you doing'?
--Musn't grumble, ta matey, seem to be escaping reality on Warseer a lot lately though..
/
"To tell the truth, I don't have a single model put together... No wait, strike that. I have my Chaos sorcerer model assembled, but not painted. But I have all the stuff I need in a bunch of huge piles everywhere. I've mostly been waiting for the new SM codex to start seeing what I'm to make. And also wanted to finish the fluff so that I'll know what to make.

But I'll get there. I'll make those conversions and all. Even if it kills me."
--Aha, i see what you're doing there now, good luck with that pal.

/
"I shouldn't? But daddy needs his sugar."
--Of course, an individual who becomes obsessed and extreme about sex, porn etc. IS feeding/worshipping/welcoming/etc. Slaanesh, but this is not ALL that is Slaaneshi. Neknoh's earlier imagining of an artist falling to Slaanesh was hardly pornographic. Any experience, in its intensity, addictive/compulsive-ness, aesthetic or carnal or whatever, is able to be taken to excesses of obsession/irrationality/destructiveness/perversion/etc. It just disappoints me to read "Titties for the Porn God". We can do better.
I did laugh at "Change for the Hobo God" though, 3 times..

Cheers!

MrBigMr
24-09-2008, 17:29
--Of course, an individual who becomes obsessed and extreme about sex, porn etc. IS feeding/worshipping/welcoming/etc. Slaanesh, but this is not ALL that is Slaaneshi. Neknoh's earlier imagining of an artist falling to Slaanesh was hardly pornographic. Any experience, in its intensity, addictive/compulsive-ness, aesthetic or carnal or whatever, is able to be taken to excesses of obsession/irrationality/destructiveness/perversion/etc.
I've used the artist comparison sometimes. Remember the guy in Heroes that took drugs to see the future (don't remember names, haven't watched it that keenly)? Imagine all those great artists of the old time, seeking for perfection in everything. They didn't bathe or anything, just worked like madmen. Stuff like that.


It just disappoints me to read "Titties for the Porn God". We can do better.
You're an ass man, right? Should have said "T&A for the Porn God." Besides, what's wrong with that? I mean, when people look at Khorne they just think blood and gore and when they look at Nurgle they think about oozing pus. So when you look at Slaanesh, it's something right out of a Michael Manning comic.

Besides, if everyone got Slaanesh, all of those that do wouldn't be that elite anymore. I know how it feels. I've liked anime since back when it was know as "Japanese animation" and no one had never heard of it. Now every kid likes it and it's oozing from every crack. And I'm reduced to being "one of the anime nerds."

Firaxin
24-09-2008, 20:11
I just have a quick question.

Khorne exemplifying honor and martial prowess/perfection is a relatively new concept for me, but its an idea that I love, it adds a whole new dimension to him. But if that's so, why did the Emperor's Children fall to Slaanesh, and not Khorne? I haven't read the book since the week it came out, but I seem to recall them obsessing over getting tactics and such right, Lucious being the best duelist, etc.

Lord Zarkov
24-09-2008, 20:34
IRL its because Khorne was already taken by the World Eaters.

Backgroundwise it's because the EC strove for perfection in all things, not just warfare. Fulgrim had emphatically encouraged his legion to study and partake in the arts and to broaden their horizons outside of warfare. It's this all-round quest for perfection and taste for trying out new pastimes that led to Slaanesh.
Also Khorne is more about the here and now of battlefield prowess than perfect pre-planned tactics, thats more towards Tzeentch and Slaanesh. Khorne is about perfecting one's martial skills in combat and proving one's abilities by fighting worthy opponents. The risk is of course that you degenerate from killing to prove yourself to killing for killing's sake.

Col. Tartleton
24-09-2008, 21:07
However in practice, they are both actually worshipping slaanesh, since the world eaters enjoy fighting more than orks, and thats in the realm of hedonism. Khornism should be about doing things the simple way as opposed to the idea that a Tzeentchian does it the right way, or a slaaneshi is going to do it every single way, or a nurglite too busy melting into slime to do it at all.

A khornate could write a book, but he'd rather summarize his idea and tell it to you in a sentence because typing a friggen book is a waste of his friggen time.

As you can see, the follower of Khorne is clearly a bit pissed off at the idea of writing a book.Thats Khorne for me.

Tzeentch would write a set of well written encyclopedias to explain every intricate detail of the matter and then think of an inventive marketing campaign to get it out there into the heads of its readers.

A Slaaneshi would start writing a series of books and never stop until he died, and perhaps through the glory of his god he might declare it finally finished and then begin adapting it to the screenplay in the afterlife...

A nurglite would just chill and keep the idea to himself.

MrBigMr
24-09-2008, 21:50
Not only do World Eaters empower Slaanesh, but also Nurgle because the thought of actually losing, dying is a constant reminder to them, and Tzeentch because they hope to evolve, become better at what they do.

So in Chaos there really isn't any of the "bowing in one direction = mooning into another." You might direct your worship into one direction, but you're not your god nor the way you live your life (like Tyler Durden would put it). Your actions feed the whole scale of Chaos in all its glory. Maybe a little, maybe a lot. But it does. Like I said, that's how Lucius is able to live forever. Upon his death, no matter who kills him, they will feel even the slightest feelings of joy because of it. Maybe they wanted to kill Lucius. Maybe they just like killing, or the challenge of battle and besting one's opponent. In any case, Slaanesh uses this to ram Lucius's soul into the killers body and in time they will turn into Lucius and their own soul is trapped forever within his armour.

So no matter how pious of a warrior, no matter how pure and holy, their ass is grass once ol' Lucius the Lawnmower kicks the bucket. Their self-satisfaction is noted by Slaanesh.

Neknoh
24-09-2008, 22:16
This is the point where a servitor kills him

Or a landraider on its machinespirit (crew dead) makes one final tumble forward and crushes him.

MrBigMr
24-09-2008, 22:30
This is the point where a servitor kills him
But who ordered the servitor to kill Lucius. They don't like stand around killing everyone that comes into their field of vision. Someone gave it the order to engage Lucius, or any hostile target, knowing that one such as him might appear. Or something like that.


Or a landraider on its machinespirit (crew dead) makes one final tumble forward and crushes him.
Doesn't the Land Raider machine spirit have organic matter inside it? Don't tempt me. If only I had an EC army, I'd so make a Land Raider with tortured soul hatches, Exorcist launcher tubes on its back and tentacles growing and shooting out from the right lascannon sponsons.

"Even in death I will drive over the servants of the false god!"
*Wroom! Wroom!*


But seriously, asking such is like asking "what if he chokes on a sandwich?" Then he'll die and never be born again. Is that what you want to know? Might as well ask "what if someone had stabbed the Emperor when he was just a kid because he was a dick?" Or something like that. It hasn't happened, and before GW gets bored of Lucius, it won't happen. I mean, a bolter shell in Calgar's head would certainly kill him and no matter how many battles he takes part in, he won't die. Never. He's an Ultramarine. He's not going anywhere. Unlike all those other special characters. The ones that aren't Ultramarines.

Neknoh
25-09-2008, 00:03
No, I do not wonder that, I merely bemused myself over the horrid thing that is irony, a rabbit running out in front of the horse of some great hero that's passing through the mountains on his way to the final battle, a host of bananapeels causing the senate that tried to kill Ceasar to fail... or, as said, Lucius choking on a sandwich.

However, if something in battle actually kills him, I feel it would be a very interesting concept, lucius, the proof that all things can worship Slaanesh, excess reincarnated... ending up with the mangled body of a servitor, the shredded remains of a landraider or anything similar to that.

Hrmm... I'm bored... if I'm still bored tomorrow, I might start writing four stories of Fall and gathering em into one thread... we'll see... and I promise, there will be background to the fall as well, not an introduction right at the break point.

Btw, MrBigMr, was it you who wrote "The Inadvert Falls" or whatever those were called on the BL forum?

MrBigMr
25-09-2008, 08:16
Btw, MrBigMr, was it you who wrote "The Inadvert Falls" or whatever those were called on the BL forum?
The what now?

Neknoh
25-09-2008, 08:28
Nevermind, found them.

Best "fall" stories I've seen this far, at least last I remembered, I'm too tiread to reread them :p

Slaanesh
http://forum.blacklibrary.com/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=1955&SearchTerms=falls

Nurgle
http://forum.blacklibrary.com/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=1799&SearchTerms=falls

Iracundus
25-09-2008, 08:51
However in practice, they are both actually worshipping slaanesh, since the world eaters enjoy fighting more than orks, and thats in the realm of hedonism

Actually they don't. As detailed in the original Realms of Chaos, Khorne worship was bloodshed but it was serious business. That is part of the reason why Khorne was described as hating Slaanesh, as Slaanesh views killing and bloodshed as just one of many pleasures to be savored and enjoyed rather than the monomaniacal focused serious activity of Khorne. That is also why in the original Realms of Chaos, certain Slaanesh spells that distracted mortals with extreme pleasurable sensations would actually cause damage to Khorne daemons as they were so foreign and unwelcome sensations.

Lord-Caerolion
25-09-2008, 09:50
Actually they don't. As detailed in the original Realms of Chaos, Khorne worship was bloodshed but it was serious business.

Actually, they do. If you read the new Daemons codexes, they specify that the excesses that the followers of the other gods seek to honour their own god do in fact feed Slaanesh, a fact that has the other Gods worried. You don't have to enjoy what you do for Slaanesh, necessarily, but you have to want to exceed anything done previously, you have to want more.

MrBigMr
25-09-2008, 10:00
Nevermind, found them.
Ok. I doubt any of my work is up anymore on BL site. I'll never write a damn thing on them ever again.


Actually they don't. As detailed in the original Realms of Chaos, Khorne worship was bloodshed but it was serious business. That is part of the reason why Khorne was described as hating Slaanesh, as Slaanesh views killing and bloodshed as just one of many pleasures to be savored and enjoyed rather than the monomaniacal focused serious activity of Khorne. That is also why in the original Realms of Chaos, certain Slaanesh spells that distracted mortals with extreme pleasurable sensations would actually cause damage to Khorne daemons as they were so foreign and unwelcome sensations.
So Khorne is like western morals, violence is good but sex and nudity ain't?

Gdolkin
25-09-2008, 13:35
So Khorne is like western morals, violence is good but sex and nudity ain't?
No, Iracundus was talking about the different approaches to violence that Khorne and Slaanesh favour, I believe. As I see it, Khornate violence is a serious expression of a serious belief/philosophy that 'Khorne', (as in war, rage, violence, destruction, bloodshed etc.), is the most fundamental truth of life in the universe, the only 'real' source of meaning and value, or however one would like to put it. After all, "In the Grim Darkness etc." worshipping Khorne could be a serious, 'rational' position to take, and bloody violence could seem to be logically, rationally, religiously (obviously), and even perhaps morally required, to a serious Khorne cultist. Sure, a Berzerker enjoys it when he cuts you in half, just as a Slaaneshi would, but it means a lot more to the Khornate in terms of expressing his beliefs about reality. Just as a Slaaneshi simply selfishly and sensually enjoys bloodshed, as just another form of sensation and excess, which is what really matters to them and expresses their fundamental philosophy of what life is about. The same act of chopping someone up has very different meaning, intention, emotional justification and resonance for a Khornate as opposed to a Slaaneshi.
Or just carry on with "RAAAARGHBLUD!!" and "BUTTSECKS!" if you prefer, I think i might be wasting mind-power on fictional theology..

MrBigMr
25-09-2008, 14:42
No, Iracundus was talking about the different approaches to violence that Khorne and Slaanesh favour, I believe.
It was mostly a joke. I just found the image of Bloodlettes losing all bonds to their material bodies because all of a sudden they find need for body parts they haven't been gifted with. Or something like that.


Or just carry on with "RAAAARGHBLUD!!" and "BUTTSECKS!" if you prefer, I think i might be wasting mind-power on fictional theology..
All fictional theology and no "BUTTSECKS!" makes Jack into a human yo-yo.

Besides:
'Among the maxims on Lord Naoshige's wall, there was this one: "Matters of great concern should be treated lightly." Master Ittei commented, "Matters of small concern should be treated seriously."'

Gdolkin
25-09-2008, 15:13
It was mostly a joke..

All fictional theology and no "BUTTSECKS!" makes Jack into a human yo-yo.

Besides:
'Among the maxims on Lord Naoshige's wall, there was this one: "Matters of great concern should be treated lightly." Master Ittei commented, "Matters of small concern should be treated seriously."'
-Touche sir, your words ring true. Don't understand the yo-yo, but I would counter with "All "BUTTSECKS!" and no thoughtful contemplation of the urges to excess, sensuality and hedonism, of all the things that go into this and are expressive of it, makes Slaanesh a very dull literary creation." Personally, I turn to 40k and Warseer to take my mind away from lust and being a horny dog, but it takes all sorts eh.. Slaanesh favours all forms of self-indulgent escapist obsession, but hey, sex sells.
As a side note, I find the existence and worship of the Chaos Gods more intuitively plausible, 'humanist' and 'understandable' than real-life religions we have today. I routinely experience irrational destructive anger, self-indulgent and excessive hedonism, apathetic despair, and hopes and dreams of change. We really are ruled by our emotions..:evilgrin:

MrBigMr
25-09-2008, 15:35
Don't understand the yo-yo
Yo-yo. (http://i.pbase.com/u9/willa/medium/4113844.ClassicYoYoBlue.jpg) Human yo-yo. (http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1433/1436911565_16ee961f5b.jpg)


but I would counter with "All "BUTTSECKS!" and no thoughtful contemplation of the urges to excess, sensuality and hedonism, of all the things that go into this and are expressive of it, makes Slaanesh a very dull literary creation." Personally, I turn to 40k and Warseer to take my mind away from lust and being a horny dog, but it takes all sorts eh..
You come to the internet to get away from porn? That's like... That's just wrong. You're doing it wrong.

Gdolkin
25-09-2008, 15:50
Aaah, yoyo, gotcha. True say..
No, I come to Warseer and continue to be interested in 40k lore in general to get away from porn, be it internet or mental or real.. it pulls the venetian blinds across the filth-screen of my mind most effectively. Having said that, I aint gonna be looking at Warseer this weekend, oh dear me no..
Everything in moderation, including moderation, right? Other great sayings of Wilde are, "Try everything once, except incest and country dancing." and "Ask yourself if you are happy, and you cease to be so." and of course "We are all lying in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.".. Wise man, but Slaanesh has him now..