PDA

View Full Version : The origins of the Blood Ravens...



Chaplain Muller
22-09-2008, 09:53
So, is anyone here just as confused about the Blood Ravens origins as I am?

They've been linked to:


Thousand Sons
Alpha Legion
Grey Knights
Word Bearers
Relictors
Raven Guard
Blood Angels
Disbanded Ultramarines


Personally, I believe the Thousand Sons theory is probably the most likely one, with the Librarian and hunting for lore links.

So, what Chapter do you think could be their founder?

mindtaker
22-09-2008, 10:44
haven't put an awfull lot of thought into it but my votes with Thousand Son's, make's the most sense from where I'm standing.

Lord Malorne
22-09-2008, 11:00
Its strongly (VERY strongly) hinted at Thousand sons, but they (GW/BL) will never say who. its debatable wether there background is even canon.

LexxBomb
22-09-2008, 12:07
except that they have furioso dreadnaughts which means they must be blood angel descendants because only blood angel descendnts can have them fluff wise.

Lord Damocles
22-09-2008, 12:58
except that they have furioso dreadnaughts which means they must be blood angel descendants because only blood angel descendnts can have them fluff wise.
By that logic, Ultramarines must be a Dark Angels successor chapter, as they can now have Mortis dreads...

LexxBomb
22-09-2008, 13:12
did the dark angel codex say that only the dark angels/unforgiven have them... i dont think so. the blood angel codex specificaly said that only the blood angels and their sucsessors had the furioso

Lord Damocles
22-09-2008, 13:16
Imperial Armour Volume 2 says that the Mortis was specific to the Unforgiven chapters. As far as I can remember the Dark Angels codex makes no mention of them.

heinrichvoncarstein
22-09-2008, 13:22
I'm putting my bet on that the adeptus mechanicus wanted something to combat the thousand sons and they thought, fight fire with fire. So they founded the blood ravens secretely telling nobody where they came from. And remember they still have gene-seed from all the chapters and legions that have ever existed so they probably took some 1k sons gene seed

Christine
22-09-2008, 13:48
I'd have to agree and say Thousand Sons - which suits me down to the ground as I have plans to make a corrupted librarian to go with my army!

heretics bane
22-09-2008, 14:18
Remeber the Tsons wherent curropted as say the other 8 legions, they had to turn to survive unlike the other legions did by free will.

So maybe they are a splinter faction of the Tsons who wherent are prospero as they where out researching or something.

Phoenix Blaze
22-09-2008, 14:48
Kinda like Garro and his little band of Death Guard? Before Flight of the Eisenstein (and even after), there have been rumours that Garro continues to fight Chaos to this day, specifically combating Nurgle. When GW put that together with the Grey Knights, it just worked.

Revlid
22-09-2008, 16:31
Relictors
There's... no real link at all.


Raven Guard
Explicitly denied by Relic and GW. Word of God trumps all.


Blood Angels
Explicitly denied by Relic and GW. Word of God trumps all.


Disbanded Ultramarines
Again, no evidence at all.


Alpha Legion
Absolutely no evidence for this, save that their chapter discovered its specialty in battle against them.


Grey Knights
No links save wild conjecture.


Word Bearers
This is interesting. The Dark Apostle in Dark Crusade refers to the Blood Raven Captain as "Brother". I'm personally more inclined, given the lack of any other links, and its source, to look upon this as a mocking reminder of their origins than a claim to actual 'brotherhood'.


Thousand Sons
Yes. This is the good one. Let's look at the more obvious links:
*Both have a higher than average number of psykers.
*Both have more powerful psykers than average.
*Both are obsessed with pursuing knowledge, albeit for (ostensibly) different reasons.
*Blood Raven colours are almost identical to Thousand Sons pre-heresy Colours.

Other links:
*Ahriman, that Thousand Sons poster boy, claimed to have known the first Chapter-Master-Librarian of the Blood Ravens personally. (DoW: Tempest)
*An Eldar Farseer claimed that a force of Thousand Sons guarded a planet (and, with it, an Eldar artifact) in pre-heresy times. When told that the Blood Ravens, for all their similar heraldry, were not Thousand Sons, she replied that they were "no different". (DoW: Ascension)
* It would be very easy, in the twisted bureaucracy of the Imperium, for a tiny fraction of Thousand Sons (arguably the least culpable in their treachery) to change their symbol after the Heresy and claim to be a founded Chapter called (in a burst of originality) the Blood Ravens. They then stamp out any evidence to the contrary, leaving future generations questioning of their origins.

LexxBomb
22-09-2008, 16:55
relic doesn't matter.
as for quoting GW please give souirce otherwise we will ignore broad sweeping statments like GW says"<insert statement>"

Imperialis_Dominatus
22-09-2008, 17:17
except that they have furioso dreadnaughts which means they must be blood angel descendants because only blood angel descendnts can have them fluff wise.

As said above, Mortis Dreads were a DA thing in FW publications. And Crusaders used to be for Templars only... until someone wanted to paint them blue... :angel:


relic doesn't matter.

How so?

Leftenant Gashrog
22-09-2008, 18:35
And Crusaders used to be for Templars only... until someone wanted to paint them blue... :angel:


No they weren't, the Crusader entry in the Black Templars army list in Codex: Armageddon explicitly stated that they were used by other chapters both fluffwise and ruleswise.

Imperialis_Dominatus
22-09-2008, 18:45
No they weren't, the Crusader entry in the Black Templars army list in Codex: Armageddon explicitly stated that they were used by other chapters both fluffwise and ruleswise.

Whoops, you're right. Could have sworn I read differently somewhere... oh well.

Addendum: someone at the studio wanted to paint it blue then. :p

Supremearchmarshal
22-09-2008, 18:56
This is interesting. The Dark Apostle in Dark Crusade refers to the Blood Raven Captain as "Brother". I'm personally more inclined, given the lack of any other links, and its source, to look upon this as a mocking reminder of their origins than a claim to actual 'brotherhood'.

Yep, there are at least 2 examples that Chaos Marines use "brother" to mock their loyalist counterparts. The first one was in an old battle report and goes something along the lines that a CSM can't find the words to express his millenia old hatred for a SM he is talking to and finally simply says "brother". The other instance is in the game Chaos Gate, where the Chaos lord addresses the Ultramarine captain as "brother-captain Krueger" in a mocking voice.

I agree on your reasoning that it's the Thousand Sons.

PondaNagura
22-09-2008, 19:09
even though it's 'hinted' at 1k sons, i never liked that idea, and as for BL publishings i tend to side with the novels that aren't centered around the plot of a videogame, like the blood ravens or fire warrior; it just feels like another way to push the products. but that's me.

besides i would have thought the imperium to have purged the geneseed, when they did the whole, strike the 1k sons from the records. why would you destroy all evidence of them having existed, and then go and keep random geneseed?

Col. Tartleton
22-09-2008, 20:03
Forgot to throw in the Imperial Fists.

There's bad blood between the two. I still want to know more about it.

Librarian Kohath goes on an anti fist rant, saying how the two chapters are of equal footing in the Imperium and the Fists are slacking off and resting on the laurels of their Primarch (which is pretty far fetched with the number of engagements the Fists have gone in) The fact that Dorn's mace is allegedly (DOW) in the hands of the BR is not making this any simpler.

S**t clearly went down.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was the Imperial Fists and Blood Ravens having a chapter war at some point and the Blood Ravens having their records destroyed. Few other chapters besides the Fists could effectively act against the Ravens, who I would count among the most powerful of the lesser foundings.

The Ravens were odds are on Vandires side during the reign of blood due to their ties with the Ecclesiarchy. Perhaps it was then that the Imperial Fists had them punished.*

*Not sure on the timeline, but if it fits thats my theory.

Supremearchmarshal
22-09-2008, 20:39
besides i would have thought the imperium to have purged the geneseed, when they did the whole, strike the 1k sons from the records. why would you destroy all evidence of them having existed, and then go and keep random geneseed?

As I recall the Imperium still keeps geneseed from all traitor legions. I'm not sure about the two missing legions though.

Chaplain Muller
22-09-2008, 22:49
Forgot to throw in the Imperial Fists.

There's bad blood between the two. I still want to know more about it.

Librarian Kohath goes on an anti fist rant.

Kohath is a fleet sergeant. Korinth is the Librarian you're talking about. But I agree with you.

hwd
23-09-2008, 08:03
*An Eldar Farseer claimed that a force of Thousand Sons guarded a planet (and, with it, an Eldar artifact) in pre-heresy times. When told that the Blood Ravens, for all their similar heraldry, were not Thousand Sons, she replied that they were "no different". (DoW: Ascension)


All good points... However in the eyes of an Eldar all marines would be the same no? All just another race they have to put up with until the big fun end-of-the-universe battle

Variel
23-09-2008, 08:18
eldar are smart, would think they would notice the difference in the space marines like different gene strands of a race, though similar, each have unique capabilities or styles

hwd
23-09-2008, 10:15
True they are smart and would recognise the difference but in this instance I reckon they wouldn't care which marines were there just that some were and that they would crush them either way?

stormblade
23-09-2008, 10:19
All good points... However in the eyes of an Eldar all marines would be the same no? All just another race they have to put up with until the big fun end-of-the-universe battle

But they do not think as us- and cannot, thusly, perceive one human from another as well as we can.

It would be like you telling one dog from another- you can't unless you've been around them for a longer time.

Besides they can be really ignorant in their cocky arrogance.

Variel
23-09-2008, 11:32
they would crush them either way?

haha true that:D

Super Ninja
23-09-2008, 11:35
did the dark angel codex say that only the dark angels/unforgiven have them... i dont think so. the blood angel codex specificaly said that only the blood angels and their sucsessors had the furioso

The only time i've seen Blood Ravens with Furiosos was in the DoW 2 Trailer (an amazing trailer by the way:cool:). The reason behind that is that in DoW 1 they had diferent special bits from each of the most famous SM chapters in the SM to compensate for the fact that they could not create chapter-specific armies:

Furiosos for BA
Special Weapon Scouts for SW
TL asault cannons and heavy bolters ala DA deathwing

Anyway my money is on the Thousand Sons because the BR have the strongest and most abundant links to them.

Lord Damocles
23-09-2008, 13:46
They've been linked to:


Thousand Sons
Alpha Legion
Grey Knights
Word Bearers
Relictors
Raven Guard
Blood Angels
Disbanded Ultramarines


Dark Angels should also be on the list, since the 'Index Astartes: Blood ravens' specifically mentions that it's been suggested that they may be of Dark Angel stock.

In fact, the list should really only be:


Thousand Sons
Dark Angels
Imperial Fists (only because they have Dorn's mace, although they could have got it from any number of sources)

Dictator
23-09-2008, 14:57
Thousand sons, just because that is the most interesting choice.

heinrichvoncarstein
23-09-2008, 17:05
But they do not think as us- and cannot, thusly, perceive one human from another as well as we can.

It would be like you telling one dog from another- you can't unless you've been around them for a longer time.

Besides they can be really ignorant in their cocky arrogance.

Except that one of the dogs would be going around marked with a big mark of tzeentch on him!! And eldar definetively recognize chaos

stormblade
23-09-2008, 17:21
Except that one of the dogs would be going around marked with a big mark of tzeentch on him!! And eldar definetively recognize chaos

True, unless it's a pre- heresy dog.

setekhite
24-09-2008, 11:22
One more point for the TS link - I always thought the Ravens' insignia looked a lot like the stylised 'M' of the Thousand Sons.

Pitalla Crimson
16-10-2008, 16:22
It has been specified by GW and Relic that they are in no way conected to the Blood Angels, Raven Guard or Dark Angels.
My bets are on the Thousand Sons for obvious and clear reasons.

BTW Relic will be ingoring the novels from goto and they will be going trought their own path in dow 2, or at least thats wath they are planning for the dow2 expansion wch will feature chaos.

LexxBomb
16-10-2008, 16:29
It has been specified by GW and Relic that they are in no way conected to the Blood Angels, Raven Guard or Dark Angels.
My bets are on the Thousand Sons for obvious and clear reasons.

BTW Relic will be ingoring the novels from goto and they will be going trought their own path in dow 2, or at least thats wath they are planning for the dow2 expansion wch will feature chaos.

GW has never officially said that

Lord Damocles
16-10-2008, 21:28
GW has never officially said that
Well, the Index Astartes article (from GW) *does* say that any link between the Blood Ravens and the Blood Angels/Raven Guard appears to be based purely on the similar names, and no other factors.

You're right that GW has never said that there is no link with the Dark Angels though - Infact they've implied the complete opposite!

Jadmoroth
16-10-2008, 21:54
I'd have to say they're loyalaist Thousand Sons.

The things Ahriman tells Rhamah certainly seem to support this
"Yes friend of Ahriman, you are a Blood Raven. but we are not so different, you and I."

Keeping the red armour after the other 1K sons had turned would show that they'd severed their links with their traitorous brothers and remained loyal to the imperium and I'm not sure that some of the more puritanical legions/chapters would be all that pleased to know they were connected to traitors which would explain the deletion of their founding records

"Who other than the Thousand Sons would go through all this trouble for a lost Eldar library?"
"We would"

Lisiecki
16-10-2008, 22:52
So maybe they are a splinter faction of the Tsons who wherent are prospero as they where out researching or something.

Wait

Having a legion that was obsessed with using the corrupting power of the warp, was less corrupet than the NightLords?
I mean, ill admit that he NightLords all all kinds of unpleasant, but are they really corrupt?

Imperialis_Dominatus
17-10-2008, 06:05
Wait

Having a legion that was obsessed with using the corrupting power of the warp, was less corrupet than the NightLords?
I mean, ill admit that he NightLords all all kinds of unpleasant, but are they really corrupt?

Not at the time of the Heresy, no. Definitely not. *clasps Lord of the Night to chest*

warsmithferrousmaximus
17-10-2008, 09:50
I'd have to pitch in the thousand sons camp for this one. Firstly because, as others have said, the high number of psykers is to much to be coincidental. Second the motto and the reason that the go to battle is the persuit of knowledge and relics.

Finally the idea that they simply changed thier name after the heresy seems feasable, similar to one of Garro's party repainting his armour after fleeing the traitors from the sons of horus back to the luna wolves heraldry.

The blood ravens could well have been thousand sons who fled prospero but did not follow magnus when he sided with horus and have since exspunged all thier history to cover it up.

The only concern is thier over eagerness to fight anyone who gets in the way of thier search for knowledge,even imperial forces, as in dow,: dark crusade. If this trend continues this may well undo them and cause them to come under unwanted scrutiny from the Inquisition.

daemonkin
17-10-2008, 10:15
I like the idea of My Thousand Sons spawning a loyalist version of themselves - keeps the dream alive that Magnus is just 'pretending' to be bad but is in fact working on the inside trying to turn all the traitors loyal again.

I can but dream...

D.

Grandmaster Abael
17-10-2008, 11:17
I dont think, that the BR are a loyalist splinter of the TS.

As i see it, the BR were found in the 36. millenia, which falls into the time of the cursed founding. So a geneseed mishmash or even the use of traitorzygotes are still possibilities. But i doubt, that the BR were trained by traitors.

LexxBomb
17-10-2008, 12:10
the more we talk about the Blood Ravens the more they seem to resemble the Relictors

Lisiecki
17-10-2008, 13:12
Not at the time of the Heresy, no. Definitely not. *clasps Lord of the Night to chest*

See i aggre with you. They were nasty basterds that were about 5 seconds away from being pruged, but they wernt acually CORRUPT. Well, acually maybe they were corrupt, but in a nonmystical Colonel Kurtz way.Infact, im willing to bet that Col. Kurtz had something to do with Konrad Curze

Rockerfella
17-10-2008, 14:01
Not at the time of the Heresy, no. Definitely not. *clasps Lord of the Night to chest*

He's right!! He's right you know! *points and nods* He's right!!

Messiah
17-10-2008, 14:42
I dont think, that the BR are a loyalist splinter of the TS.

As i see it, the BR were found in the 36. millenia, which falls into the time of the cursed founding. So a geneseed mishmash or even the use of traitorzygotes are still possibilities. But i doubt, that the BR were trained by traitors.

They might be a founding that used TS geneseed, or a mix between DA and TS geneseed, but who knows, my personal opinion is that they were created using TS geneseed.

Grandmaster Abael
17-10-2008, 16:27
the more we talk about the Blood Ravens the more they seem to resemble the Relictors

The Relictors use mix of DA and UM geneseed. Their higher number of Librarians is explained by their closeness to the eye of terror.

The Bloodravens on the other Hand are assumed to recruit target oriented from psykerrich worlds. This theory also conters the TS-assumption.

LexxBomb
17-10-2008, 17:03
i was refering to their quest for knowledge and artifacts of power

Emperor's Grace
17-10-2008, 17:11
why would you destroy all evidence of them having existed, and then go and keep random geneseed?

To provide a basis for potential bioweapons against those genes?

To try and lift the better psyker genes to another "purer" template?

To allow you to figure out where the chaos susceptibility came from?

etc...

Just imagine the AM/AB trying to cure the flaws of different chapters by grafting together the genes of multiple chapters.

Like putting together the Tsons psyker genes with Raven Guard geneseed that was "repaired" with BA stock. (Kinda Jurrassic Park)

You get either Blood Ravens or Serpentor.

Phoebus
17-10-2008, 19:01
See i aggre with you. They were nasty basterds that were about 5 seconds away from being pruged, but they wernt acually CORRUPT. Well, acually maybe they were corrupt, but in a nonmystical Colonel Kurtz way.Infact, im willing to bet that Col. Kurtz had something to do with Konrad Curze
I second this. If anything, virtually everything bad that can be pinned on the Night Lords can be explained away by quality control issues.

I mean, you have Konrad Kurze, aka Night Haunter, as Primarch--an unstable individual at best. Then, you have a recruiting pool that is predominately made up of the most vicious criminals of their planet. Nothing good can come of this, even if Chaos doesn't lift a finger to mess with them.

Grandmaster Abael
17-10-2008, 19:09
i was refering to their quest for knowledge and artifacts of power

Well, the Blood Ravens dont know their Primarch or anything about their founding, which makes them quite interested in their history. Also Azariah Vidja stated in their early times, that knowledge about your enemy is vital for your strategy. So it is no wonder, that they are on a hunt for knowledge.

The Relictors on the other hand search for weapons and knowledge, that they can use against chaos, as they were stationed near the eye of chaos.

Similar behavior, different reasons.

Lisiecki
17-10-2008, 19:11
I second this. If anything, virtually everything bad that can be pinned on the Night Lords can be explained away by quality control issues.

I mean, you have Konrad Kurze, aka Night Haunter, as Primarch--an unstable individual at best. Then, you have a recruiting pool that is predominately made up of the most vicious criminals of their planet. Nothing good can come of this, even if Chaos doesn't lift a finger to mess with them.

Am I right about that, I think it is.
I think it was an Index Artical where it was talked about how the Heresy was the best thing possible for them, because the Emperors next step would have been to send the other legions against the Lords

Imperialis_Dominatus
17-10-2008, 23:47
See i aggre with you. They were nasty basterds that were about 5 seconds away from being pruged, but they wernt acually CORRUPT. Well, acually maybe they were corrupt, but in a nonmystical Colonel Kurtz way.Infact, im willing to bet that Col. Kurtz had something to do with Konrad Curze

IIRC Kurtz is an inspiration for Curze. And so is Batman.


He's right!! He's right you know! *points and nods* He's right!!

Damn right. ;)


i was refering to their quest for knowledge and artifacts of power

Yeah, they are a little similar in that regard.


Am I right about that, I think it is.
I think it was an Index Artical where it was talked about how the Heresy was the best thing possible for them, because the Emperors next step would have been to send the other legions against the Lords

Probably, I mean, according to the book I referenced earlier they'd already sent assassins after mah boy Curze.

DantesInferno
18-10-2008, 00:34
To provide a basis for potential bioweapons against those genes?

To try and lift the better psyker genes to another "purer" template?

To allow you to figure out where the chaos susceptibility came from?

etc...

Just imagine the AM/AB trying to cure the flaws of different chapters by grafting together the genes of multiple chapters.

Like putting together the Tsons psyker genes with Raven Guard geneseed that was "repaired" with BA stock. (Kinda Jurrassic Park)

We already 'know' that the Cursed Founding included attempts to fiddle with existing gene-seed to try to repair the defects of the existing loyalist stocks. For instance, the Blood Angels' gene-seed would be the Imperium's best quality gene-seed, if it were not for the crippling defect of the Black Rage associated with the Blood Angels and their successor Chapters. The Lamenters were rumoured to be an attempt to fiddle with the Sanguinius strain in order to remove this defect.

And it's entirely possible that some of the ancient stores of Traitor gene-seed still kept by the Imperium were used to this purpose in the Cursed Founding. For instance, the Minotaurs seem eerily reminiscent of the pre-Heresy World Eaters, while the Sons of Antaeus appear to share the Death Guard's resilience....


I second this. If anything, virtually everything bad that can be pinned on the Night Lords can be explained away by quality control issues.

I mean, you have Konrad Kurze, aka Night Haunter, as Primarch--an unstable individual at best. Then, you have a recruiting pool that is predominately made up of the most vicious criminals of their planet. Nothing good can come of this, even if Chaos doesn't lift a finger to mess with them.

The 'nature vs nurture' debate is at the heart of so many discussions about the Primarchs.


IIRC Kurtz is an inspiration for Curze. And so is Batman.

If you look at Heart of Darkness and Apocalypse Now, it's not too hard to see what inspired the names of Konrad, Curze and M'Shen. And of course, there are also interesting thematic elements of the two texts present in the story of the Night Lords...

Imperialis_Dominatus
18-10-2008, 04:38
I need to read Heart of Darkness, never gotten around to it though.

Lanparth
18-10-2008, 07:59
As for Chaos, there is really only evidence pointing towards the Tsons, or a little towards the Word bearers. Other than that, its basically "all hearsay"

Emperor's Grace
20-10-2008, 15:10
We already 'know' that the Cursed Founding included attempts to fiddle with existing gene-seed to try to repair the defects of the existing loyalist stocks.

Yes, part of the point actually. I was trying to afford him reasons as to why they kept "heretic" stock.

Tamade
22-10-2008, 09:30
isn't tzentch also referred to as the raven god (from warhammer online at least). might be another tenous link to Tsons.

Dragonlv8
22-10-2008, 09:59
I love this conversation seeing as im looking to start Blood Ravens but I refuse to ever read a CS Goto book after reading so many bad reports on him mostly involving huge amounts of dead Eldar.

DantesInferno
22-10-2008, 10:48
I need to read Heart of Darkness, never gotten around to it though.

It's... well, an acquired taste. I loved it, but I know many of my friends can't stand it. It's probably best read for its language and stylistic features, rather than having any great expectations of the plot.

Furthermore, I wouldn't expect too many parallels, plot-wise, with the Night Lords' Primarch. Apocalypse Now should be your first point of call in that regard. It is, however, very interesting to note the thematic interplay between light and dark, civilisation and barbarism in Heart of Darkness. There are some interesting links to the imagery used in the Night Lords' IA article and the whole "civilizing mission" of the Great Crusade. Even though the mission was to bring the Emperor's light to the darkest corners of the galaxy (take a look at the Emperor's arrival on Prospero or the imagery of the Black Templars), there's an innate element of brutality and darkness that corrupts the whole endeavour (indeed, the Night Lords). On some level, the Empire being created is just a facade for the same savagery that they're trying to defeat. Consider the imagery of the destruction of Prospero for a similar thematic twist to Heart of Darkness' ending.


Yes, part of the point actually. I was trying to afford him reasons as to why they kept "heretic" stock.

Sorry for the confusion, I was just providing some concrete background examples to illustrate your suggestions.

Tigurius Marius
31-12-2010, 16:54
(Good Morning Gentleman! I'm a member on Bolter and Chainsword - have been noticing a bunch of these controversial threads over the background of the Blood Raven's. I actually wrote both Graham McNeil and Dan Abnett to hopefully put some of this to bed. Dan Abnett responded with the following... Hopefully this helps give credence to the BR fans like myself! Please quote me and verify with Mr. Abnett if you like - his blog and website are accessible through the Black Library website.)

root@danabnett.com to me
show details 1:19 AM (11 hours ago)

Hi Rick

Thanks for the kind words.

Not quite sure what I can say to help, except that my understanding is that Graham's quote was a specific nod to the idea that the BR would one day rise from the TS
geneseed. As far as I'm concerned, that's canonical....I'm not entirely certain why it should be controversial (am I naive?)...and I'm also not quite sure how much MORE
obvious you needed Graham to be about it? ;)

Does that help?

Dan



On Thu 30/12/10 5:59 PM , Rick S------a r-------@gmail.com sent:
> Good afternoon from the US!
> I finally got to read your next installation in the Horus Heresy
> series, you truly took the perspective of story-telling in a new
> direction! Truly wonderful! Also, looking forward to your next
> Guant's book and congratulations on "Ultramarine". Once I heard
> you wrote the screen play, I brought the collector's edition
> straight away!
> Enough with the brown nosing... I'm writing because I'm
> blood raven's fan (yes - one of those nutters). Since both you
> and Mr. McNeill took on the role of addressing the Prospero incident
> between the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves - we in the BR community
> were eagerly awaiting some more back story in the Prospero
> _Aftermath... _I can understand you were not contracted to write
> about that or anything with BR fluff. Anything addressing this
> issue would help if your able to talk about it or if you even care to
> speculate.
> Giving you some back story into the BR conflict if you haven't
> kept tabs on this. It's been greatly hinted at the Blood Ravens
> were made from the Thousand Sons geneseed - but no canon writers want
> to touch this subject other then Mr. Goto since it's so vague and
> let's face it! The Blood Raven's are a made up chapter from a
> video game - granted a well received game, but a video game.
> Major controversy started with your fellow writer, Mr. McNeill when
> he put "Raven of Blood" quote in his book. Since you confirmed you
> were working with him in one of your video blogs, some of the readers
> hoped you would maybe put this issue to bed in Prospero Burns.
> Sadly, the conflict rages on...
> It would be really cool if either you or Mr. McNeill would be able to
> address this issue at a later date, if your able to talk about it and
> not under contractual silence. Having some gaming company break the
> news gives a bad spin to the lore in someways - but many fans respect
> the words of their treasured author's much more. I respect your
> view if you were to disagree. But still, any closure to this debate
> especially for an esteemed writer as yourself would go a long way to
> satiating the needs of the masses. Thank you again for your time
> and putting up with my fanboy rants. I wish you luck in your
> future endeavorers and look forward to more of your works!
> Sincerely,
> Rick S------a
>

Azrael'sFury
31-12-2010, 19:16
Based on what I have read, I personally believe that the Blood Ravens are remnant Thousans Sons loyalists. The overabundance of pskers and the reference to a "Raven of Blood" in A Thousand Sons is the main evidence for me.

captian Maklai
31-12-2010, 21:08
What about the undiscovered primarch? They call the blood ravens primarch the unknown primarch. (There were 20 primarchs made but only ever found 18)
Spoiler
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Horus killed number 19 so only number 20 is unaccounted for.

Scorpius_78
31-12-2010, 21:18
Horus killed number 19 so only number 20 is unaccounted for.

I'm sorry...... what:wtf:

MasterGideon
31-12-2010, 21:57
In HH: A thousand Sons there is a segement where ahriman and other captains see "A Raven of Blood" or something, I cant rememeber what chapter its in, but I know its after ruling that Pyskers are to be banned from all Legions.

To me that a hint that either a) some of the Thousands Son dont fall to chaos and make up the Blood Raven sometime after the HH. b) that Thousand Son Geneseed is use to create a new chapter and that the vision is that the Thousands Son have during the begining of the HH is that no matter what happends they will live on defending the Emperor.

However after reading some histroy on some of the later founds, its stated that some founds actually use a mix of geneseeds so perhaps someone created the Blood Ravens from Thousand Son + another Loyal Chapter to ensure that they are less likely to mutate.....

MasterGideon

MasterGidoen

Askil the Undecided
02-01-2011, 01:39
The 1ksons weren't overly prone to mutation (which is very odd considering their gene father is a one-eyed red-skinned giant) it's only the patronage of T'zeentch that made their DNA start wobbling around like an overweight Hawaiian dancing girl. this is why Ahriman cast his rubric and "saved" his brothers for devolution into spawn.

As such there is no genetic flaw to "fix" by mixing geneseed with a loyal chapter's.

Gatsby
02-01-2011, 19:19
However after reading some histroy on some of the later founds, its stated that some founds actually use a mix of geneseeds so perhaps someone created the Blood Ravens from Thousand Son + another Loyal Chapter to ensure that they are less likely to mutate.....

MasterGideon

MasterGidoen

I doubt that they would mix gene-seed, but if they were to, I think they would use Dark Angel gene-seed. After all it is the most pure, and to top it off, if any chapter knows how to keep a secret...

but i think that email posted a page ago kinda answers all the questions...

Tordeck
02-01-2011, 20:58
relic doesn't matter.
as for quoting GW please give souirce otherwise we will ignore broad sweeping statments like GW says"<insert statement>"
Page 54 Column 1 Paragraph 3 Line 7 of the Blood Angels codex states "There are other surviving Chapters whose names and traditions would suggest a connection with the Blood Angels - the Blood Swords and Blood Ravens amongst them - but these Chapters do not claim Sanguinius' lineage, truthfully or otherwise."

adreal
10-01-2011, 00:22
The 1ksons weren't overly prone to mutation (which is very odd considering their gene father is a one-eyed red-skinned giant) it's only the patronage of T'zeentch that made their DNA start wobbling around like an overweight Hawaiian dancing girl. this is why Ahriman cast his rubric and "saved" his brothers for devolution into spawn.

As such there is no genetic flaw to "fix" by mixing geneseed with a loyal chapter's.

Read spoiler below


In ATS it's stated that yes, they are prone to mutation, and Magnus sacrificed himself (loosing an eye) to a gret warp power (tzeentch) that 'stoped' the flesh change (also, they all had to meditate and stuff), but as tzeentch always does, he comes out on top, just as the space wolves start thier attack, the flesh change begins again

Bonzai
10-01-2011, 16:07
I would certainly lean towards them being a cursed founding chapter based on the 1K sons Gene seed. However, you would think that there would be more problems with mutation if that were true.

johnmcl7
20-01-2011, 23:20
Mutation in gene seed is fixable by the 41st millennium as demonstrated by the Soul Drinkers

John

Shipmonkey
21-01-2011, 03:37
What about the undiscovered primarch? They call the blood ravens primarch the unknown primarch. (There were 20 primarchs made but only ever found 18)
Spoiler
-
-
Horus killed number 19 so only number 20 is unaccounted for.

Your analysis would be spot on, except for the fact that all twenty Primarchs were found and participated in the Great Crusade. Check out Prospero Burning and First Heretic for better information.

Arkindayanto
02-11-2011, 23:35
what if they are the remaining forces of either the 2nd or the 11th legion?

Drakon
02-11-2011, 23:50
think you need to read the "Age of darkness" to explain this all will be revealed :D

Kiro
03-11-2011, 00:57
think you need to read the "Age of darkness" to explain this all will be revealed :D

Ho-yes, pretty much confirmed the Ravens are a Thousand Sons offshoot

Lord-Caerolion
03-11-2011, 08:15
Mutation in gene seed is fixable by the 41st millennium as demonstrated by the Soul Drinkers

John

And also as demostrated by the Lamenters, the Fire Hawks, and the rest of the Cursed Founding... oh wait.

Geneseed is in no way truly fixable. All attempts to "breed out" any flaws have ended badly. Lamenters lost the Black Rage for a while, but now it's back, and have their "bad luck curse", the Fire Hawks spontaneously combusted, the Black Dragons have bone growths coming out of their arms and head, and so on. They might get rid of the initial problem, but something else goes wrong instead.
With the Soul Drinkers, it's just a case of them getting new supplies of their standard Imperial Fist geneseed. In the case of the Thousand Sons, even the standard stock is mutated, so simply swapping back to the original version isn't going to do anything.

Dhurrin
03-11-2011, 08:36
The 1ksons weren't overly prone to mutation (which is very odd considering their gene father is a one-eyed red-skinned giant) it's only the patronage of T'zeentch that made their DNA start wobbling around like an overweight Hawaiian dancing girl. this is why Ahriman cast his rubric and "saved" his brothers for devolution into spawn.

As such there is no genetic flaw to "fix" by mixing geneseed with a loyal chapter's.


Read spoiler below


In ATS it's stated that yes, they are prone to mutation, and Magnus sacrificed himself (loosing an eye) to a gret warp power (tzeentch) that 'stoped' the flesh change (also, they all had to meditate and stuff), but as tzeentch always does, he comes out on top, just as the space wolves start thier attack, the flesh change begins again



What has to be remembered though is that the Rubric not only turned the non-psychic TS and weak-psychics into dust... But also cured all the stronger psychic marines off any mutation (in fact IIRC it made them immune to mutation) while tremendously increasing their psychic abilities. It does not state however that the Rubric only affected the TS on the Planet of Sorcerors, so any TS in the material realm may well have been affected as well leaving the BR with pure geneseed.

Satan
03-11-2011, 09:02
And also as demostrated by the Lamenters, the Fire Hawks, and the rest of the Cursed Founding... oh wait.

Geneseed is in no way truly fixable. All attempts to "breed out" any flaws have ended badly. Lamenters lost the Black Rage for a while, but now it's back, and have their "bad luck curse", the Fire Hawks spontaneously combusted, the Black Dragons have bone growths coming out of their arms and head, and so on. They might get rid of the initial problem, but something else goes wrong instead.
With the Soul Drinkers, it's just a case of them getting new supplies of their standard Imperial Fist geneseed. In the case of the Thousand Sons, even the standard stock is mutated, so simply swapping back to the original version isn't going to do anything.

The Wolves fixed it. But Magnus crashed the party and prevented it.

Lord-Caerolion
03-11-2011, 09:11
The Wolves fixed it. But Magnus crashed the party and prevented it.

Proving yet again that whatever you can do, the Wolves can do better and look cooler doing it. Seriously, the top Magi of the Adeptus Mechanicus, and damned Fabius Bile can't properly figure out geneseed, with thousands of years to work on it, yet some Wolf Priest figures it out perfectly?

That book does nothing but further the stupid "The Wolves are the utter bestest, and are as anti-Chaos, if not more, than the Grey Knights" theory. Here's an idea, Space Wolves. If you've got the clout to supposedly create enough Chapters to wall in the Eye of Terror, why not do it with the Grey Knights, rather than the Wolves? Waitaminute... Grey Knights geneseed comes from a mysterious source, and they're resistant to Chaos? Grey Knights use "fixed" Space Wolf geneseed!

shadowhawk2008
03-11-2011, 09:58
The Tempering project was not a success. The Wolf Priest was close to finding out a solution to the gene-seed problem though. One of the officers of the chapter's serf armed defenders stumbled into the lab and saw rows upon rows of what were failed specimens with the common SW mutations exemplified. So basically, he saw a bunch of dead werewolves.

It was also the Flame Falcons who spontaneously combusted without harm to their bodies and were later purged by Grey Knights. The Fire Hawks are the ones who fought in the Badab War and later disappeared en route to a warzone. IIRC, they are also the precursors to the Legion of the Damned.

In Battle of the Fang, one of the Thousand Sons sorcerer captains begins to experience the beginnings of the flesh change. It ends up that he is later possessed by Magnus but his horror at his mutations, which are actually mentioned is very real.

Lord-Caerolion
03-11-2011, 10:19
Ok, so they still never actually cured it. Geneseed should be kept as the mysterious enigma where noone other than the Emperor exactly knows what does what. No Chapter has ever had their geneseed successfully fixed, at least not permanently. The only proper "geneseed fixing" that goes on is the combination of two different strands, for example giving an IF successor Chapter the Betcher's Glands from Ultramarine stock, creating a hybrid.
The problem is that none of the real flaws can be fixed in that way. The Black Rage is psychic in nature, not entirely genetic, the Raven Guard albinism is utterly ingrained in the damaged geneseed as a whole, it seems, and the Flesh Change seems to be another combination of psychic and genetic factors.

The other problem with the Blood Ravens being Thousand Son successors is the fact that, even if they were successors, and affected by the Rubric, they're still having new members inducted. Either the Rubric doesn't carry over to new members, at which point they'd be affected by the Flesh Change, or it does, and many Blood Ravens would become Rubrics, as not all are psykers. Note, I'll admit that I'm assuming that the Rubric didn't affect the geneseed itself, because the way the Rubric is described, it targetted the Thousand Sons themselves, it didn't purge the geneseed of its flaws, it just stopped mutation. Presumably, the geneseed itself was unchanged, it just stopped the geneseed reacting in negative ways with the implantee.

Dhurrin
03-11-2011, 10:46
The other problem with the Blood Ravens being Thousand Son successors is the fact that, even if they were successors, and affected by the Rubric, they're still having new members inducted. Either the Rubric doesn't carry over to new members, at which point they'd be affected by the Flesh Change, or it does, and many Blood Ravens would become Rubrics, as not all are psykers. Note, I'll admit that I'm assuming that the Rubric didn't affect the geneseed itself, because the way the Rubric is described, it targetted the Thousand Sons themselves, it didn't purge the geneseed of its flaws, it just stopped mutation. Presumably, the geneseed itself was unchanged, it just stopped the geneseed reacting in negative ways with the implantee.

I get what you mean, but I don't understand how you came by your conclusion. If the Rubric cured the psychic TS of mutation and made them immune to further mutation it would reason that it also cured their geneseed of any mutation seeing as their geneseed is a part of them. This would result in pure geneseed with no mutation at all, which is why the BR recruit psykers because their geneseed no longer mutates normal humans into psykers.

Their geneseed wouldn't turn non-psychic aspirants into Rubric marines as the TS who became Rubrics do not have geneseed anymore seeing as they are dust, ans the TS who didn't become Rubric have, as mentioned above, pure geneseed now.

SunTzu
03-11-2011, 11:29
CS Goto's first draft of the Dawn of War novels stated that they were descended from one of the two "missing" Primarchs. This led the BL editors to send it back to him with the entire relevant pages crossed out in red felt-tip pen with the word "NO" written over it.

...or so I was told by someone who works/worked at BL, anyway.

Thus I don't think the Blood Ravens really have a canon origin... it's just "something mysterious", but explicitly not the missing Primarchs, so a few token hints at Thousand Sons were added instead then they tried hard to forget about the whole thing.

At the end of the day the Blood Ravens are just a fanfic chapter anyway, it just so happens that the fans writing the fic happened to work for a company that was making a computer game for GW.

Lord-Caerolion
03-11-2011, 12:00
Well, they've been given an Index Astartes article, and are mentioned in the Blood Angels codex, so I don't think they're merely fan-fiction any more.

As for the Rubric, I'm not entirely sure how I came to that conclusion either, it just feels right to me.

shadowhawk2008
03-11-2011, 12:33
Mentioned in the Blood Angels codex as per Goto's mention of them in his second Deathwatch novel as a possible Blood Angels successor but without proof.

Kyrios
03-11-2011, 21:09
Can't argue with Graham McNeil if he says they're TS. However, as previously state the TS geneseed was rife with mutation before Magnus temporarily stopped it and it then returned so he need some nifty explanation as to why they are'nt wrowing extra arms all the time!

Kiro
03-11-2011, 22:05
There is so much that could happen between the Heresy and the emergence of the Ravens to explain away their geneseed. That, and I think the 'rife with mutation' angle was always Tzeentch taking an interest in the Thousand Sons rather than any inherent instability.

ThunderWolfX17
14-09-2014, 04:42
Why doesn't the Imperium use the Blood Raven's gene-seed to tell where they are from? They have the knowledge to check the purity of genes and they can also modify them a little too, right? They also have the technology to "grow" human beings and see if someone is infected by gene-stealers. You'd think they would know how to check gene-seeds to see where they came from. Then they could see who the Blood Ravens came from, or at least determine who they Didn't come from.

hazmiter
14-09-2014, 04:57
even though it's 'hinted' at 1k sons, i never liked that idea, and as for BL publishings i tend to side with the novels that aren't centered around the plot of a videogame, like the blood ravens or fire warrior; it just feels like another way to push the products. but that's me.

besides i would have thought the imperium to have purged the geneseed, when they did the whole, strike the 1k sons from the records. why would you destroy all evidence of them having existed, and then go and keep random geneseed?

Gene seed is a valuable resource, especially the uncorrupted geneseeds.
The traitor legion gene seeds the imperium would have in stock are most likely taken pre heresy.
Or from those legionnaires that stayed loyal (garro being an example).
Those stocks are probably inaccessible to anyone without the high lords authority, and could be used at a later date to create a new chapter with the strengths of the legions before.

Menthak
14-09-2014, 06:05
Gene seed is a valuable resource, especially the uncorrupted geneseeds.
The traitor legion gene seeds the imperium would have in stock are most likely taken pre heresy.
Or from those legionnaires that stayed loyal (garro being an example).
Those stocks are probably inaccessible to anyone without the high lords authority, and could be used at a later date to create a new chapter with the strengths of the legions before.

You're replying to something someone said six years ago.


Why doesn't the Imperium use the Blood Raven's gene-seed to tell where they are from? They have the knowledge to check the purity of genes and they can also modify them a little too, right? They also have the technology to "grow" human beings and see if someone is infected by gene-stealers. You'd think they would know how to check gene-seeds to see where they came from. Then they could see who the Blood Ravens came from, or at least determine who they Didn't come from.

Just a friendly reminder that the mods don't really enjoy threadromancy (replying to really old threads).

Lanacane
14-09-2014, 20:41
Was about to say that Menth.. so much of the information is old anyway.

But maybe its the forums fault? it prefers you to talk in threads taht already exist witha certain subject matter.. and it isnt exactly shown in a public place that threadromancy is a sin.

Fangschrecken
15-09-2014, 02:56
It may be threadomancy but assuming this thread is allowed to shamble back into life let's continue. We've gotten a lot more hints over the past several years.

There's that short story about the Thousand Son with a Raven on his shoulder rummaging through the ruins of Tizca. And then (I think it's the same guy) he appears in Scars. You would need a lot more than a single marine to rebuild a chapter/legion, but I guess it would depend on if his progenoids were still in.

I could certainly see Jaghati Khan taking in loyalist survivors of the Thousand Sons and hiding them. As a way of protecting his beloved Brother's legacy and those sons who did nothing wrong other than belonging to a legion that turned traitor. For all we know he kept them secret, re-educated them to a more Chogoran mindset that was less dangerous (given the full realization of the folly of their primarch they probably would have went willingly) and then he could have spun them off into their own chapter when the legions were broken up. Asking only that those who knew the truth vowed to take that truth to their graves.

aprilmanha
15-09-2014, 10:22
It may be threadomancy but assuming this thread is allowed to shamble back into life let's continue. We've gotten a lot more hints over the past several years.

There's that short story about the Thousand Son with a Raven on his shoulder rummaging through the ruins of Tizca. And then (I think it's the same guy) he appears in Scars. You would need a lot more than a single marine to rebuild a chapter/legion, but I guess it would depend on if his progenoids were still in.

I could certainly see Jaghati Khan taking in loyalist survivors of the Thousand Sons and hiding them. As a way of protecting his beloved Brother's legacy and those sons who did nothing wrong other than belonging to a legion that turned traitor. For all we know he kept them secret, re-educated them to a more Chogoran mindset that was less dangerous (given the full realization of the folly of their primarch they probably would have went willingly) and then he could have spun them off into their own chapter when the legions were broken up. Asking only that those who knew the truth vowed to take that truth to their graves.

I quite like this spin of the chapter actually, it makes my use of bikes and FA elements for half of my army work a little better for me :D
Question is though, Which chapter tactics suit the theme of the Blood Ravens best?

I've been using Pedro Kantor as my super original Chapter master called Kadro Pantor and Imperial fists Chapter tactics just because I like Stern Guard units and +1A for my Shield chapter elements.

Kiro
15-09-2014, 11:39
I could certainly see Jaghati Khan taking in loyalist survivors of the Thousand Sons and hiding them. As a way of protecting his beloved Brother's legacy and those sons who did nothing wrong other than belonging to a legion that turned traitor. For all we know he kept them secret, re-educated them to a more Chogoran mindset that was less dangerous (given the full realization of the folly of their primarch they probably would have went willingly) and then he could have spun them off into their own chapter when the legions were broken up. Asking only that those who knew the truth vowed to take that truth to their graves.

This (almost) happens in the White Scars short from Sedition's Gate ;)

Fangschrecken
17-09-2014, 03:42
This (almost) happens in the White Scars short from Sedition's Gate ;)

Care to say more?

MajorWesJanson
17-09-2014, 08:52
Care to say more?

Torghun (the Stormcaller character) tries to take the Thousand Son survivor into joining up and becoming part of the White Scars, makes him a cool shoulder pad with combined legion symbols, but the sorcerer declines, saying that as long as he is alive, his legion is not gone, and he would rather not let it disappear by becoming a White Scar.

Kiro
17-09-2014, 11:17
I thought it was Yesugei?

Fangschrecken
18-09-2014, 00:21
Torghun (the Stormcaller character) tries to take the Thousand Son survivor into joining up and becoming part of the White Scars, makes him a cool shoulder pad with combined legion symbols, but the sorcerer declines, saying that as long as he is alive, his legion is not gone, and he would rather not let it disappear by becoming a White Scar.

Would I be correct in thinking that this happens after scars and before the siege of terra? The guy might change his tune when Magnus and Ahriman show up and starts conjuring.

Kiro
18-09-2014, 00:52
Would I be correct in thinking that this happens after scars and before the siege of terra? The guy might change his tune when Magnus and Ahriman show up and starts conjuring.

Possibly. But then all points seem to indicate he's the progenitor of the Blood Ravens.

Nazguire
18-09-2014, 04:19
Could it not be? Could BL just have the Blood Ravens as a Chapter with no conspiratorial links to a Heresy Traitor Legion? That'd be nice. Not everyone has to be a special snowflake.

Kiro
18-09-2014, 12:13
Could it not be? Could BL just have the Blood Ravens as a Chapter with no conspiratorial links to a Heresy Traitor Legion? That'd be nice. Not everyone has to be a special snowflake.

It might not be, but if it was a red herring it would be large enough to end world famine.

Spider-pope
19-09-2014, 20:11
Could it not be? Could BL just have the Blood Ravens as a Chapter with no conspiratorial links to a Heresy Traitor Legion? That'd be nice. Not everyone has to be a special snowflake.

Are they a special snowflake though?

There are other chapters with hints and nods to possible origins with the Traitor Legions, like the Minotaurs. Which is the level i'd rather the Blood Ravens remained at. Sure leave a hint or two, but it should never be explicit. I'd rather have it be left to the players imagination just what the truth is than have it spelled out.

Kiro
19-09-2014, 22:20
There are other chapters with hints and nods to possible origins with the Traitor Legions, like the Minotaurs.

Are there actually any others? I was wracking my brain trying to think of anything other than a throwaway reference from a friend of a friend of a redshirt :confused:


I'd rather have it be left to the players imagination just what the truth is than have it spelled out.

Each to their own, et al, but I've always preferred White Wolf's approach to Canon mystery rather than GW' mystery for mystery's sake - print the outright truth in one publication then drown it in lies and myth.

dreadlord_darkwaters
21-09-2014, 14:43
in the horus heresy book age of darkness I think there's a group of thousand sons who were sent away during prospero burns and they return to be ambused by world eaters. it mentions that they are looking for the rest of the legion as they have no idea what happens. then it mentions the sign of that group or class is the ravens head. they survive and it looks like a hint towards them no betraying the emperor, reuniting with other thousand sons and forming a new group. just my theory

Muad'Dib
23-09-2014, 01:19
Are there actually any others? I was wracking my brain trying to think of anything other than a throwaway reference from a friend of a friend of a redshirt :confused:

The current Minotaurs I don't think there is even a reference hmm.
But the original Minotaurs were described in White Dwarf article as uncharacteristically hyper-aggressive; and I think something else...or maybe it was just the winky way that they hyper-aggression was described that made them seem like a World Eater off-shot.

Nazguire
23-09-2014, 09:09
I don't think in the original White Dwarf article there is anything to suggest traitor gene seed for the Minotaurs other than 'angry Space Marines'. It was here say developed into 'fact' by the boffins of Warseer and other GW sites.

Lord Damocles
23-09-2014, 17:58
It was here say developed into 'fact' by the boffins of Warseer and other GW sites.
People mis-remembering and mis-quoting in 40K Background? Surely not :shifty:

Lord Zarkov
23-09-2014, 20:32
The article they were from (rules and background for cursed founding chapters) hinted that traitor seed was used for some chapters in the founding, but IIRC none of the chapters listed was specifically hinted as being one of them.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Spider-pope
24-09-2014, 19:17
The current Minotaurs I don't think there is even a reference hmm.
But the original Minotaurs were described in White Dwarf article as uncharacteristically hyper-aggressive; and I think something else...or maybe it was just the winky way that they hyper-aggression was described that made them seem like a World Eater off-shot.

The current Forgeworld background details them as a chapter that is hyper aggressive, willing to do whatever is needed to win and uses heavy and repeat doses of psycho-indoctrination beyond the norm of other chapters. Sound familiar? Their geneseed is also classified.

It's not as explicit as the Blood Ravens, but the hints are there. And exactly as vague as i like them to be. I can present an argument that the Minotaurs have World Eater origins, but i can equally present an argument that they aren't. It's up to each player to decide for themselves what the truth is for their games and fluff. Having it outright stated that Blood Ravens are Thousand Sons spoils it in my opinion.

jareddm3
25-09-2014, 03:41
I can agree that the Minotaurs have probably the strongest background in terms of ambiguous geneseed. The Carcharodons used to have that, but the HH Forgeworld books have made it abundantly clear that they're Raven Guard successors. Hell, there's now more evidence that they're Raven Guard than there are signs that Blood Ravens are Thousand Sons! Personally, I'm of the belief that only the Blood Ravens are actually TS geneseed whereas for me, the Minotaurs simply adopted the practice but are the successors of a genetically nondescript chapter like the White Scars or Iron Hands.

Nazguire
25-09-2014, 04:56
The current Forgeworld background details them as a chapter that is hyper aggressive, willing to do whatever is needed to win and uses heavy and repeat doses of psycho-indoctrination beyond the norm of other chapters. Sound familiar? Their geneseed is also classified.

It's not as explicit as the Blood Ravens, but the hints are there. And exactly as vague as i like them to be. I can present an argument that the Minotaurs have World Eater origins, but i can equally present an argument that they aren't. It's up to each player to decide for themselves what the truth is for their games and fluff. Having it outright stated that Blood Ravens are Thousand Sons spoils it in my opinion.


Can someone provide the actual quote from the Minotaurs White Dwarf article? I want to see how the World Eaters origin can be extrapolated from 'hyper-aggressive' and 'intense psycho indoctrination' which could point to any number of Chapters, such as the Black Templars.

Lord Damocles
25-09-2014, 10:01
Can someone provide the actual quote from the Minotaurs White Dwarf article? I want to see how the World Eaters origin can be extrapolated from 'hyper-aggressive' and 'intense psycho indoctrination' which could point to any number of Chapters, such as the Black Templars.
There is nothing in the White Dwarf article which featured the Minotaurs ('The Cursed Founding' in Chapter Approved 2004, pg.6 (reprinted)). The most relevant text reads:
'Some Cursed Founding Space Marines, such as the Minotaurs Chapter, are entirely consumed by xenophobic hatred that far surpasses the righteous fury of a normal Space Marine.'

[All models gain +1 attack and ignore morale and pinning. Must assualt closest enemy. Must sweeping advance. Price per model so high that they were completely uncompetetive.]


The original Cursed Founding article which inspired the rules article, and which is referenced, ('Index Astartes: The Cursed Founding' in White Dwarf 260 (UK), pgs.98-102) makes no direct mention of the Minotaurs, and doesn't mention where the gene seed derived from.

------

The Forgeworld background (Imperial Armour Volume 10: The Badab War - Part Two, pgs.104, 106 & Imperial Armour Volume 12: The Fall of Orpheus, pgs.132-3 (mostly a reprint)) give a few more hints, but it's all very circumstantial and adds up to little more than 'angry Marines; might have had gene seed fiddled with'.

BrainFireBob
28-09-2014, 08:48
Can't argue with Graham McNeil if he says they're TS. However, as previously state the TS geneseed was rife with mutation before Magnus temporarily stopped it and it then returned so he need some nifty explanation as to why they are'nt wrowing extra arms all the time!

The problem with this continually coming up is that I get tired of looking up the references and don't have page numbers at hand anymore.

Chart out Thousand Sons as a timeline regarding the legion size.

There are approximately 1000 to start with. Gene seed 'issue' (first incidence of flesh change?). No flesh change noted by these early recruits (Ahriman is one).

The Legion grows. Flesh change starts. Sufficiently strong psykers can hold it off (see, Ahriman's poor memory of Magnus and the Emperor meeting due to having to focus on not spawn-ifying). There's "little more" than a thousand left at this point. Implies mutation had slowed. Hence the nickname 1k Sons- started with a thousand, reduced back to that when they meet their father.

Magnus cuts a deal with Tzeentch. Costs him part of his own mercurial yet stable form (his eye- part of a body designed to hold that kind of mutating energy), but the Change stops- for awhile. Thousand Sons grow to approximately 10k in size, but are disproportionately effective on the battlefield.

After some time (2 centuries? Three?) the Change begins again. His sons being slaughtered on Prospero, Magnus cuts a deal with Tzeentch to save them- at the cost of his body. There are only a little over thousand left when they reach the Planet of the Sorcerers.

After some time, mutations begin again. Ahriman in horror casts his Rubric. One assumes they were recruiting during this time. Every non-psyker, weak psyker, or already mutated Marine is sealed in his mutation-proof armor. Every strong psyker finds his abilities magnified to the point he can stabilize his own form. One assumes the Rubric changed them specifically to resist mutation- and that this could take two forms, and both forms appeared, as an unexpected side effect.

I digress. The functional point is that we don't know how many 1k Son sorcerers survived, but it's few. We also know that each time the flesh change appeared, it was when the Legion exceeded a number somewhere in excess of 1000- a number that could comfortably be approximated as 1K sons.

Assume the 1K sons don't have gene-seed themselves anymore as a result of the rubric- or only gene-seed in the living sorcerers, which may kill them to harvest. Assume whatever bargain- the Emperor's in creating Magnus, or Magnus' own bargain- protects a little over 1000. Say it's 1300. If there are 1000 Blood Ravens, there can be up to 300 Thousand Son sorcerers before either group starts experiencing the flesh change. Since the 1K sons don't need numbers- they have Rubrics for that- and it's actually a stable situation.

Graham seemed fairly clear to me about this via his usage in the book. Some of his ideas I don't like- stylistic choices, really, opinions resembling what they do- but I see that he tries to systemize things and like it. In the case of the thousand sons, their name symbolically describes their nature (the hint being the exposition about names having meaning in Thousand Sons)- there can be only some mystical number a little over 1000 of them, and any number above that are vulnerable to the Warp turning them in to spawn.

BrainFireBob
28-09-2014, 08:55
There is nothing in the White Dwarf article which featured the Minotaurs ('The Cursed Founding' in Chapter Approved 2004, pg.6 (reprinted)). The most relevant text reads:
'Some Cursed Founding Space Marines, such as the Minotaurs Chapter, are entirely consumed by xenophobic hatred that far surpasses the righteous fury of a normal Space Marine.'

[All models gain +1 attack and ignore morale and pinning. Must assualt closest enemy. Must sweeping advance. Price per model so high that they were completely uncompetetive.]


The original Cursed Founding article which inspired the rules article, and which is referenced, ('Index Astartes: The Cursed Founding' in White Dwarf 260 (UK), pgs.98-102) makes no direct mention of the Minotaurs, and doesn't mention where the gene seed derived from.

------

The Forgeworld background (Imperial Armour Volume 10: The Badab War - Part Two, pgs.104, 106 & Imperial Armour Volume 12: The Fall of Orpheus, pgs.132-3 (mostly a reprint)) give a few more hints, but it's all very circumstantial and adds up to little more than 'angry Marines; might have had gene seed fiddled with'.

I'm going to slightly disagree with Lord Damocles.

The original Cursed Founding Index Astartes- which is somewhere around here- that had rules for fielding a Cursed Founding army? The one with the upgrades, the Knights, the mutated ones?

Anyway, it listed the possibility that certain Chapters had traitor gene-seed. The Sons of Antaeus are mentiond as having similar durability as the Death Guard, I believe the Mentors are mentioned, and the Minotaurs are cited in that area. The one FF legion that the Minotaurs resembled was the World Eaters. It's implied by process of elimination and association in a group inferred to be "Traitor Stock", but it's not terribly conclusive and is left to the reader.

Muad'Dib
28-09-2014, 10:01
I also recall Sons of Antaeus as being likened to Death Guard in the White Dwarf article..
..however, this doesn't make much sense - Sons are noted as going on after bits of them are blown away, Plague Marine- style. But Death Guard weren't pernaturally resistant to physical trauma - there were resistant to toxins and other biohazards. Still, the idea of using Traitor geneseed is thrown out in regards to them, as far as I remember.

Lord Damocles
28-09-2014, 10:17
Anyway, it listed the possibility that certain Chapters had traitor gene-seed.
Nope. It really doesn't. The only time it even comes anywhere close is with the Sons of Antaeus.


The Sons of Antaeus are mentiond as having similar durability as the Death Guard
The text actually says:
'Less sympathetic observers point out that the chapter appears every bit as resilient as the Death Guard Traitor Legion' (Chapter Approved 2004, pg.8) (that's it - no mention of gene seed or anything elsewhere in the entire article)
- Observers evidently basing their observations on extremely limited evidence.
Of course, we know that the Sons' toughness is due to their enhanced skeletons (the rule is called 'Augmented Skeleton'); and the Death Guard weren't especially tough prior to getting all diseasey. There's no reason to jump to the conclusion that the modification of the Sons' gene seed involved Death Guard stock.

Perrin
28-09-2014, 12:45
Wasn't there something in a Horus Heresy book about the Death Guard having slightly better durability built into their genetic code? Think it may have been Deliverance Lost.

Kiro
28-09-2014, 14:52
*snip*

Let's not forget that those Sons who didn't follow Magnus into the Warp are still afflicted by the Flesh Change; Arvida seems determined to find a cure, and given we have the Blood Ravens, he succeeded.

Muad'Dib
28-09-2014, 14:53
Might be. Still, Sons of Antaeus durability is more akin to that of a Plague Marine (though with the skeleton being durable rather than the flesh being Nurglesque); rather than a slight tendency.
Maybe make it that they started with Death Guard geneseed and enhanced the durability aspect; if you're really intent on making them Death Guard-derived.

Fangschrecken
28-09-2014, 19:06
The problem with this continually coming up is that I get tired of looking up the references and don't have page numbers at hand anymore.

Chart out Thousand Sons as a timeline regarding the legion size. {cut}

I get what you're saying but it doesn't exactly hold up since they revised the sizes of the legions. IIRC before "A Thousand Sons" and "Prospero Burns" black library had the legions being around 10k strong, but after that they revised the numbers to be more realistic in terms of a galaxy spanning crusade and all the legions are now said to be around 100K. The new HH books from FW agree with this.

I can see the thousand sons being so thoroughly decimated by the flesh change and the wolves that they got cut down to only a thousand on both occasions. I like the idea that Magnus' bargain only protects 1k of his Sons and that any in excess means Tzeench is free to cull the herd. IF the Blood Ravens are of Thousand Sons stock then they would account for ~1300 marines (that being around the total in a chapter).

Menthak
29-09-2014, 17:21
Death Guard weren't especially tough prior to getting all diseasey.

Gythua from The Outcast dead wants a word.

Nazguire
29-09-2014, 22:31
All I got from this is that the Minotaurs have not been implied to have traitor gene-seed from the World Eaters any more than I have. Seems entirely to be players over the years Chinese whispering something into fact, or at least implied 'fact'.

Aggressive, anti-social, insular and quick to anger are all facets of the Black Templars, or Flesh Tearers. Until there is some sort of reference to traitor gene-seed in any type of fashion other than players putting isolated sentences in multiple different unrelated sources together to create a 2 + 2 = 5 scenario, I can't see how the Minotaurs can even remotely be related to the World Eaters.

Ol'timer
30-09-2014, 00:48
Looking back through this thread, I think it's safe to say br is from ts gene seed one way or another. As to early mutation, one must remember that the pirimarch program wasn't done yet when they were "stolen" away. The marines were made up from the leftovers so to speak. All of the original primarchs had a quirk. Part of the emperor's playing. They also have part of his Dna makeup with them. They all have part of his attitude. Quick temper, always right, smarts, perfect warrior, psychic powers, well learned, thirst for knowledge and of course egos the size of the moon. If you look at it that way, the are truly sons.
as to BR? Could be from long lost gene stock, although I would think from survivors who are still loyal :D

tneva82
30-09-2014, 05:38
I can't see how the Minotaurs can even remotely be related to the World Eaters.

They do also share traits with world eaters+are part of cursed founding rumoured to use traitor geneseeds. Enough suggestions that if players want they can do it like that. But it's open enough that players can use other ideas as well. That's nicely set up piece of background ;) Leaving things open for personal interpretation and not just clearly spell it out.

Lupe
30-09-2014, 08:41
Whether or not the Blood Ravens ARE of Thousand Sons geneseed has been discussed over the forums for a while now, whit no consensus either way. Which I strongly suspect is the very point behind all the obvious hints to suggest their origins in the first place.

However, in theory the Flesh Change shouldn't necessarily prevent a chapter from being founded from Thousand Sons geneseed. Or from actual Thousand Sons survivors for that matter.

First of all, it probably wasn't caused by a flaw with Magnus' geneseed, but by the subtle touch of Tzeentch who really, really wanted to make Magnus and Ahriman his champions.
Under that assumption, it's likely that, even at its height, the affliction didn't affect the entire legion at once. It would be way more useful for Tzeentch's purposes just to have it happen sporadically to screw with Magnus, and then just increase the frequency or severity of the isolated incidents, to build up pressure on Magnus. And there would be very little need for Tzeentch to keep the Flesh Change going once his immediate goals are achieved (although I'm not discounting the occasional whim that he's entirely capable of)

Then there's the Rubric. We know it turned most of the legion to dust. But we're not sure exactly what its limits were. Was it limited to the marines touched by the Flesh change? Or was it limited to the legionnaires present on the Planet of Sorcerers? Or every one in the Eye of Terror? Would it have been powerful enough to also destroy the geneseed in stasis or cryo vaults?

Was it possible to have spilled out to affect survivors in real space - I don't particularly think that's likely, since sorcery of that magnitude would have caused a lot of side effects, and it would have been picked up by enough psykers throughout the Imperium to become a well documented phenomenon. And even if it was powerful enough, would it have also been able to destroy the geneseed stockpiles in stasis vaults on Terra or Mars?

Kiro
30-09-2014, 09:15
First of all, it probably wasn't caused by a flaw with Magnus' geneseed, but by the subtle touch of Tzeentch who really, really wanted to make Magnus and Ahriman his champions.

This is what I like to think as well. But then, it kinda turns the Thousand Sons arc into a deus ex machina (irony).