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Grom Hellscream
23-09-2008, 20:58
I was just flipping through my O+G book, and realized that under the orc boy , the sav orc boy, Boar boy, and sav boar boy entry EACH one says "one unit in the army may be upgraded to Big 'un's for +X points/model"

I looked around for a clarification, but to no avail.
SO can 1 unit of orc boys AND 1 unit of sav orc boys AND 1 unit of Boar boys AND 1 unit of Sav orc boar boys ALL be upgraded?

Gokamok
23-09-2008, 21:39
I guess so:D

Would make quite a lot of sense to be able to field more than 1 unit of Big Un's in say, a 4000 point battle, and I guess it won't throw things out of balance in smaller games, where most people would tend to go for a more "horde-like" approach anyway?

semersonp
23-09-2008, 21:51
I was just flipping through my O+G book, and realized that under the orc boy , the sav orc boy, Boar boy, and sav boar boy entry EACH one says "one unit in the army may be upgraded to Big 'un's for +X points/model"

I looked around for a clarification, but to no avail.
SO can 1 unit of orc boys AND 1 unit of sav orc boys AND 1 unit of Boar boys AND 1 unit of Sav orc boar boys ALL be upgraded?

that's a darn good question mate...

my original take was that ONE unit of boys and ONE unit of boar boys could be upgraded per force...

that is one unit of regular boys OR one unit of savage boys + one unit of boar boys OR one unit of savage boar boys if desired...

but going through the book, things got a bit murky...

the army list has the notation "one unit in the army may be..." next to the entry for regular boys, savage boys, boar boys and savage orc boys...

gorbad ironclaw's special rule 'orcs are da best' states "any number of units of Orc Boyz and Orc Boar Boyz may be upgraded to Big 'Uns"...

leading me to believe that, again, ONE unit of boys may be upgraded (of whatever type) and ONE unit of boar boys (of whatever type) may be upgraded per army unless gorbad is your general...

but that's just inference... normally i know my o+g book back n' forward... but i can't quite seem to nail down an entry specifically addressing this...

can anyone find a specific page/rule or is this connection between phrase/special rule = one unit of boys, one unit of boar boys are upgradeable all we got?

i hope i'm missing something obvious in terms of rule listing :p

neXus6
23-09-2008, 21:53
That's how it is written so that's how I've always played it. :)

If anyone questions it just let them read the book, there really is nothing to suggest you can't do this.

It's doesn't get mucky at any point in my reading of it as all those are different unit choice that all have the "one may be upgraded" rule.

Condottiere
23-09-2008, 21:55
If there's no mention in the AB, errata and FAQ giving an army-wide limit, then you could upgrade one unit of each type to Big 'Uns. You could name one of the champions Elbundi.

neXus6
23-09-2008, 21:57
Yeah there has never been an army wide limit added from any source, so play it by the book's what I say. :D

Valaraukar
23-09-2008, 21:58
Yeah it is very poorly worded as it says one unit of x in the army may be upgraded to big uns which is not terribly specific but given that in hordes of chaos Chosen was a very similar rule and you were allowed both knights and warriors I would be inclined to say you can have one of each, although it was better worded and just said one unit of warriors may be and one unit of knights may be not one unit of x in the army which is the confusing part.

neXus6
23-09-2008, 22:03
But nowhere does it say "one unit of x, y or z maybe upgraded" it is always "one unit of x may be, one unit of y may be, one unit of z may be."
I don't think it's poorly worded at all really.

semersonp
23-09-2008, 22:10
...all those are different unit choice that all have the "one may be upgraded" rule.

interesting... ok, so since the army list gives the option for each individual type (savage/regular, boys/boar boys) then one of EACH may be taken...

and that's not contradicted anywhere else... so that makes sense to me...

additionally - the entry for orc boys states that "A unit of Big 'Uns may carry a Magic Standard worth up to 50 pts."...

then regrettably the entry for savage orc boys makes no such notation... are we to infer that "A unit of Big 'Uns" refers to ANY big 'uns or just to regular boys and not savage boys? again 'wit da murk :p

Valaraukar
23-09-2008, 22:22
Now I remember it doesn't say one unit of x or y or z etc. it just says under each separate entry:

One unit in the army may be upgraded to Big Uns for x points. Now whilst I still believe this means you can take one of each it is pretty poorly specified as it doesn't say one unit of boyz may be.. then one unit of boar boyz.. etc. which it DID in the hordes of chaos book say .. of warriors or ..of knights, it just says one unit in the army but in several places which to me is quite ambiguous.

EDIT: Interesting point about the banner I would presume if it's not specifically noted in a units options then it can't take it so no banner for savages although you can for the savage boar boyz just to be that bit more inconsistent!

alextroy
23-09-2008, 23:57
The rules are rather clear:

One Unit of Orc Boyz may be upgraded to Big 'Uns. Orc Boyz Big 'Uns may have a magic banner up to 50 points. Note that each unit of Orc Boyz Orc Boyz Big 'Uns you have may have a magic banner (thank you Gorbad Ironclaw).

One unit of Savage Orc Boyz may be upgraded to Big Big 'Uns. Savage Orc Boyz Big 'Uns do not have the option of a magic banner.

One Unit of Orc Boar Boyz may be upgraded to Big 'Uns. One unit of Orc Boar Boyz may have a magic banner up to 50 points.

One Unit of Savage Orc Boar Boyz may be upgraded to Big 'Uns. One unit of Savage Orc Boar Boyz may have a magic banner up to 50 points.

Magx
24-09-2008, 03:26
The rules are rather clear:

One Unit of Orc Boyz may be upgraded to Big 'Uns. Orc Boyz Big 'Uns may have a magic banner up to 50 points. Note that each unit of Orc Boyz Orc Boyz Big 'Uns you have may have a magic banner (thank you Gorbad Ironclaw).



Actually, no. I phoned to Games Workshop (Canada) and the guy said you can't because "there is a coma (just before)".

Grom Hellscream : don't bother... just play Gorbad.. he is SO strong....

SolarHammer
24-09-2008, 03:44
Sorry, calling GW doesn't count as anything.

They are always wrong.

Magx
24-09-2008, 03:45
Sorry, calling GW doesn't count as anything.

They are always wrong.

Sorry, but they make the rules.

SolarHammer
24-09-2008, 04:13
That's it. Someone else fix this mess. I give up.

knightime98
24-09-2008, 05:19
Very Seldom do I intervene - However, this case is a no brainer.
Solar Hammer is correct about not taking rules questions from the
so called "Rulez Boyz". I have had my own personal tribulations with them
on so many matters. They are by far and wide notorious for calling a rule one way
then calling another rulez boy who calls it the opposite way. In any event, there are 3 ways to handle it. Do what the book says - roll a die to see who gets their way.
So proof of your claim through a FAQ or print in your Army book. Or forget about your claim altogether. That really is the 3 ways to solve it.

Here are some hotly debated questions that GW has yet to fix.
1) Lizardmen Salamanders - does "Spout Flames" count as a flamming attack? -
Rulez Boyz answers for 10 calls (5 yes and 5 no).
2) How does the brass orb affect the steam tank. I'm not even touching that one but rulez boyz again are on the fence.
3) The Hand of Gork vs. Skaven Warp Lightning Cannon. The hand of gork says that you may only stand as a charge reaction. The Warp Lightning cannon says that you must always flee. Rulez boyz again don't know...

These are just a few examples of their inconsistencies.

So, Yes - SolarHammer is absolutely correct beyond any question or measure!
with regard to ignoring anything Rulez boyz say. It must be in print (Period)!
Everything else is speculation.

alextroy
24-09-2008, 06:04
Actually, no. I phoned to Games Workshop (Canada) and the guy said you can't because "there is a coma (just before)".

More proof the Rules Boys know nothing:

There are no commas in the Big 'Uns rules for Orc Boyz.

Braad
24-09-2008, 08:27
Good, but if we go back to the original thing...
Maybe people EXPECT there to be a limit of one Big 'Un unit because this was how it used to be, and it is natural to read over this and assume as true what you expect you should be reading, even though it is not.
However, if there is no mention in the rules that there can be only a single one, then don't expect it to be there. It is not bad wording or whatever, its just as how it is written, you are allowed more units of big 'uns (on of each type of common and savage, boar riders and foot sloggers). So forget the past and load up on those big 'uns!

Well... maybe not. I think they are to expensive to take more than 1 anyway.

Griefbringer
24-09-2008, 08:58
who do you think I would trust the most ? a guy that his hired because he knows a lot of stuff about GW, or some random guy in a forum ?

There are lots of folks in this forum who know a lot about GW, including a number of former employees.

The guys on stores or on the mail order are not hired because their superb analytical abilities in rules interpretation. They are hired because they know the product in general and because they are expected to be able to sell it to the customers. They are the sales guys, not the design guys.

That said, there is no particular reason to trust either source (random GW employee or random Warseer poster), and definitely you should try to avoid blindly trusting either.

What you should go by are the written rules. Read them carefully, consider them in the context of the full rules set, check if there is a clarification in the Q&A, check if there is a precedence in Q&A for similar situation, and apply decent amount of analytical thinking.


Man, picture this : you are in a TOURNAMENT (so, obviously made by GW) and referee, obviously from there too. You get in argument with the referee : what will you say ? you are wrong ? even so.. he is the referee... take it and shut the hell up.

And how is this example applicable her?

Firstly, there are independent non-GW tournaments organised. These can have referees from any source.

Individual referees (regardless of the source) can always make mistakes in their interpretation. Sometimes they might be willing to listen to your arguments for a short while and reconsider their decision, sometimes not. Being a tournament, there is a need to make decisions fast. However, by going to the tournament you have agreed to abide by the decision of the referee.

Similarly, in any individual game, against any opponent, you are free to nominate any third party (including random mail order employee) to act as a referee, and that might be well advisable over wasting time on arguing.


However, this here is a rules forum. We are talking here about the correct interpretation of the rules, as written by the designers. Valid sources tend to be the rules themselves, and written clarifications and corrections (in the form of Q&A) done to them by the design team after a proper thinking.

Whitehorn
24-09-2008, 09:14
'Shut the hell up'.

It's good to see you're here to have a civilised debate.

Especially as you're wrong.

SolarHammer is correct, being under the paypacket of GW does not make you all-knowing of the rules. Any 'random nobody' could well know the rules better.

The rules are quite ambiguous with Big Uns. Stating 'One Unit' could refer to army wide, but it's under the options of a specific unit, suggesting that it means one unit of that type.

Without a book at hand, are the upgrades the same cost for all the unit types? If not, then it's not army-wide.

chivalrous
24-09-2008, 09:23
I expect in the next book we will see the special rule along the lines of: Big Uns(!) One unit in the army with this special rule may be upgraded to Big Uns insert description or bonuses here.

the Big Uns(!) rule will be given to Boyz, Boar Boyz, Savage Boyz and Savage Boar Boyz.

Sadly written as it is means that you wouldn't be able to give it to both a mounted and unmounted unit as you can now, but that may be in line with background perhaps. Only the harest orks will get their hands on a boar to ride into battle.

Valaraukar
24-09-2008, 09:24
It's not the same cost for all but I still don't agree that it necessarily follows that it means you can definitely have more than one unit of Big Uns just that the cost is different for different units but only one may take the option, although I have always allowed it to be played that way. IMO it is not well written although others seem to disagree but I have no problems with multiple different type units of big uns.

Whitehorn
24-09-2008, 09:32
If the costs are different, then it applies to that specific unit entry ONLY.

If it was army-wide, you could apply the cheaper cost to the expensive units.

Considering the expense of Big-Uns, I don't see the problem. I can't say I've used Big Uns more than once - that was purely to get the spirit totem. a BSB is a better option IMO.

Fredmans
24-09-2008, 09:44
Good, but if we go back to the original thing...
Maybe people EXPECT there to be a limit of one Big 'Un unit because this was how it used to be, and it is natural to read over this and assume as true what you expect you should be reading, even though it is not.
However, if there is no mention in the rules that there can be only a single one, then don't expect it to be there. It is not bad wording or whatever, its just as how it is written, you are allowed more units of big 'uns (on of each type of common and savage, boar riders and foot sloggers). So forget the past and load up on those big 'uns!

Well... maybe not. I think they are to expensive to take more than 1 anyway.

I agree with Braad. In 6th ed. O&G there was an explicit statement that no more than 1 unit in the army could be upgraded to big'uns. That statement does not exist in the 7th ed. army book.

Come to think of it, why should there be a 0-1 limit to big'uns, when there no longer is such a limit to black orcs? Maybe we expect it to be further clarified because there used to be a limit, when now there is none?

/Fredmans

Condottiere
24-09-2008, 09:44
To paraphrase, show me the rule page/FAQ/errata or it doesn't exist.

semersonp
24-09-2008, 11:52
ok, so as it stands we've concluded that each and every type of orc (foot / mounted) can have one upgraded unit per army...

one unit of orc boys, one unit of savage orcs, one unit of of boar boys and/or one unit of savage orc boys...

i just wonder why the poor footbound savage orcs don't have the option of a banner... omission do ya think? or just some oddly mad thrust at unit seperation yielding parity?

:p

Valaraukar
24-09-2008, 11:54
You think you can comprehend the mind of a GW developer? ;)

Who knows could have been a mistake, could have been for balance as they already have frenzy and a ward save, could have been for fluff as they are too unruly to use such things (although clearly the boar riding ones aren't, go figure!).

Gobbo Lord
24-09-2008, 13:06
Matt Ward thought frenzy, two choppas, and Noggs Banner of Butchery would be overpowered for Savage Orc Big Uns on foot.... clearly he changed his mind on what constitutes as being overpowered somewhere inbetween writing the Orc book and the Deamon one.

Whitehorn
24-09-2008, 13:17
Matt Ward thought frenzy, two choppas, and Noggs Banner of Butchery would be overpowered for Savage Orc Big Uns on foot.... clearly he changed his mind on what constitutes as being overpowered somewhere inbetween writing the Orc book and the Deamon one.

Know where to stick my BSB now :)

Harwammer
24-09-2008, 13:27
As much as it pains me to say so (since O&G are so over powered to begin with) I think you can upgrade one unit of each type to big uns. This is because the upgrade option for each unit is inside that units box, showing it only applies to that unit type.

If big uns (of any types) were one per army then that should be listed outside of any specific unit entry.

Just Praise to Matt for not allowing Savage orc big uns on foot access to Nogg's. That would be insane.

Avian
24-09-2008, 13:40
Options listed for a unit apply only to that unit. Otherwise you could give Trolls additional choppas for +2 pts because the Orc Boyz entry says that ANY unit may have them and doesn't say "any unit of Orc Boyz".

semersonp
24-09-2008, 14:00
i enjoyed the academic nature of this discussion... no one really takes multiple of big 'uns @ 2250... do they?

i personally don't field big 'uns other than my delicious savage orc boar boys big 'uns... they don't need a champ or a musician and the waaagh! banner means they smack into something, and that right soon :)

Avian
24-09-2008, 14:08
i enjoyed the academic nature of this discussion... no one really takes multiple of big 'uns @ 2250... do they?
Some of us rarely play games that small. :p

semersonp
24-09-2008, 14:21
Some of us rarely play games that small. :p

good call...

i've found myself fielding black orcs, savage orcs and big 'uns to beat the band in 5k+ games... there's just no room on a 4x6 battlefield for all my boys! :)

philbrad2
24-09-2008, 16:33
That's it. Someone else fix this mess. I give up.

I intend to, I've issued two warning for conduct on this thread. Play nice guys and keep this thread on track.


PhilB
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Spirit
24-09-2008, 23:18
As much as it pains me to say so (since O&G are so over powered to begin with) I think you can upgrade one unit of each type to big uns. This is because the upgrade option for each unit is inside that units box, showing it only applies to that unit type.

If big uns (of any types) were one per army then that should be listed outside of any specific unit entry.

Just Praise to Matt for not allowing Savage orc big uns on foot access to Nogg's. That would be insane.

Please tell me your not serious? With the current army book creep most o&g armies are nowhere near as competitive as a HE, VC or daemon army.

i'm a vamp player and i barely see games against my local o&g as fun, nevermind challenging...

Lordmonkey
25-09-2008, 12:27
i'm a vamp player and i barely see games against my local o&g as fun, nevermind challenging...

Same here. If fear doesn't prevent greenskins from making that crucial flank-charge to topple that vampire general's regiment, animosity will!

Magx
27-09-2008, 18:21
As much as it pains me to say so (since O&G are so over powered to begin with) I think you can upgrade one unit of each type to big uns. This is because the upgrade option for each unit is inside that units box, showing it only applies to that unit type.

If big uns (of any types) were one per army then that should be listed outside of any specific unit entry.

Just Praise to Matt for not allowing Savage orc big uns on foot access to Nogg's. That would be insane.

Well, there is one way to do it : just take a Savage Orc with a magic BSB and put him in the unit ! sure it costs a lot... but you don't even have to upgrade them to Big 'Uns! ( I know,I know... it'S kind of like putting a Bullseye...I was just pointing out that you could)

sulla
27-09-2008, 22:26
i'm a vamp player and i barely see games against my local o&g as fun, nevermind challenging...

Well, you do have the power to limit your (more powerful) VC list to bring it closer to the power level of his...e.g. take a lvl2 lord instead of 4. Leave the regen banner and helm at home, in fact, try taking no magic items; your stats are good enough, just use bloodlines.

w3rm
06-10-2008, 23:43
yup one of each unit of orc boy, boar boyz, and sav orc boyz can be big uns

Harwammer
07-10-2008, 00:34
yup one of each unit of orc boy, boar boyz, and sav orc boyz can be big uns

and a unit of savage boyz (though these can't take a magic banner)!