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VC Doke
25-09-2008, 05:00
Be brutal

2000 Pts - Vampire Counts -



Vampire Lord (1#, 445 Pts)
Vampire Lord
General; Level 3 Upgrade

Blood Drinker
The Cadaverous Cuirass
Crown of the Damned
Talisman of the Lycni
Lord of the Dead
Supernatural Horror
Aura of Dark Majesty

Wight King (1#, 110 Pts)
Sword of Kings
Enchanted Shield

Wight King (1#, 110 Pts) Great Weapon; Shield
The Gem of Blood

Necromancer (1#, 95 Pts)
Necromancer
Dispel Scroll
Black Periapt

Zombie Horde (20#, 84 Pts)
Musician

Zombie Horde (20#, 84 Pts)
Musician

Dire Wolves (6#, 58 Pts)
Doom Wolf

Dire Wolves (6#, 58 Pts)
Doom Wolf

Skeleton Warriors (24#, 246 Pts)
Musician; Standard Bearer; Spears
Banner of Hellfire
Skeleton Champion

Grave Guard (17#, 259 Pts)
Grave Guard
Musician; Standard Bearer
Standard of Hellish Vigour
Seneschal

Grave Guard (17#, 276 Pts)
Grave Guard
Musician; Standard Bearer; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour
War Banner
Seneschal

Varghulf (1#, 175 Pts)

Total Cost: 2000

Stinkfoot
25-09-2008, 05:35
The list is, to be honest, rather weak.

In the character department, you've taken a vampire that is both fairly poor at fighting and magic. If you want to make a combat list (lead by fighty characters) then you need a third infantry unit and some hard-to-kill, fast support units like black knights. You should also improve your vampire's armor save and give him a weapon/powers to deal damage rather than just stay alive a bit longer. If you want to be a strong caster than you need more dice. The best way to do this is through Master of the Black Arts, plus ideally a support vampire with another bound spell (the Book of Arkhan).

With either build, Supernatural Horror and the Talisman both need to go. The Varghulf will cause enough terror on it's own, and you do not want your general to charge out of his unit (for any reason). You're already fighting with a very small list, so you might as well save the points on such minimally useful upgrades. Also, I very much think it unwise to put stupidity on a undead general - a bad roll can lose you the game.

As far as non-characters go, I don't really see why you need two units of zombies. Dire wolves fill the same purpose, and paying for all those zombies is leaving your battle line seriously undermanned. You currently have one unit that is fully ranked and doesn't auto-lose whatever fights it gets into (zombies are not combat units - they're distractions and speedbumps), and you have no cavalry. Since you don't have much magic, that is just not going to cut it. Actually, so few units wouldn't cut it if you had magic either.

Even if you opt to take a magic list you need some rank breaking support like knights or small, detachment style infantry blocks. Your Grave Guard need to be at least 20 men, and ideally more like 25 so they have some ablative wounds. You don't really have enough magic at the moment to keep them at full strength.

Really, I'm not sure if any of that advice was helpful since I'm not sure what you're trying to do with your list. You don't list tactics, and your unit selections seem rather random and scattershot. I/others may be able to give better advice if we knew what you had in mind for your army.

VC Doke
25-09-2008, 14:54
In the character department, you've taken a vampire that is both fairly poor at fighting and magic. If you want to make a combat list (lead by fighty characters) then you need a third infantry unit and some hard-to-kill, fast support units like black knights. You should also improve your vampire's armor save and give him a weapon/powers to deal damage rather than just stay alive a bit longer. If you want to be a strong caster than you need more dice. The best way to do this is through Master of the Black Arts, plus ideally a
support vampire with another bound spell (the Book of Arkhan).

With either build, Supernatural Horror and the Talisman both need to go. The Varghulf will cause enough terror on it's own, and you do not want your general to charge out of his unit (for any reason). You're already fighting with a very small list, so you might as well save the points on such minimally useful upgrades. Also, I very much think it unwise to put stupidity on a undead general - a bad roll can lose you the game.

As far as non-characters go, I don't really see why you need two units of zombies. Dire wolves fill the same purpose, and paying for all those zombies is leaving your battle line seriously undermanned. You currently have one unit that is fully ranked and doesn't auto-lose whatever fights it gets into (zombies are not combat units - they're distractions and speedbumps), and you have no cavalry. Since you don't have much magic, that is just not going to cut it. Actually, so few units wouldn't cut it if you had magic either.

Even if you opt to take a magic list you need some rank breaking support like knights or small, detachment style infantry blocks. Your Grave Guard need to be at least 20 men, and ideally more like 25 so they have some ablative wounds. You don't really have enough magic at the moment to keep them at full strength.

Really, I'm not sure if any of that advice was helpful since I'm not sure what you're trying to do with your list. You don't list tactics, and your unit selections seem rather random and scattershot. I/others may be able to give better advice if we knew what you had in mind for your army.
ou didn't really specify if you're going for a friendly-type game oriented list , or looking to win tournaments with this list...so I'll assume the latter, because if it's the former, then just play w/e you think is cool, and don't dwell too much on your list.


Vampire Lord:
What exactly are you looking to accomplish with this guy?
His magic won't be anything special, and with only generating 3 power dice, you won't even get invocation of nehek off all that much. You seem to have infantry units you're planning to throw him in, why talisman of Lycni? Having your Vampire general (especially with blood drinker) running around by himself is a bad decision 99% of the time. Crown of the damned isn't a good idea...fail stupidity check- lose his magic for a phase--could be crucial. Causing Terror isn't really that important, especially compared to another magic level. Same goes for Aura of Dark Majesty. Maybe Avatar of death to give em some armor, protection for your vampire is key in any list.

Characters look OK, but if you really want to be effective in the magic phase, you might consider losing a wight king (I'd suggest the GW wielding one) for either another necromancer or level 2 Vampire.


Core:

Doom wolves are a bit of waste, the purpose of the dire wolves isn't really to rack up kills, use them to charge war machines and cause fear tests, or hit flanks of weak units.

Banner of Endless Nightmare<War banner, why get another combat res point that relies on having a fourth rank, when u can just always add 1 to combat res anyway. Also, I'd suggest a unit champ instead of the musician. Champ can accept/make challenges that can keep your characters alive, and musicians don't do much for the undead...as we don't flee--the tiebreaker RARELY comes into play with skeletons. Also, if you decide to use more magic (which I think you'll need to do), why pay for all those skeletons when you can start at 10 and just make them as big as you want with Lord of the Dead.

Special:

Grave Guard are good, but they're slow. With your limited magic phase, you probably won't be getting Vanhel's Danse off all that much, so you're going to be footslogging it across a pretty good distance with these guys. Which is a drawback, because you want to close quickly, with only 18/unit you run the risk of getting shot up and/or magic'd to pieces.

Rare:

Use both your choices...Varghulfs are good, but I'd throw in another one, or some wraiths, or maybe even Blood Knights. (I personally avoid playing the coach in tournament games). They're your bread and butter units in alot of situations, they give your opponents the most headache when figuring out how to deal with them.


Overall:

I'd say, You lack anything that is going to get across the field and earn you some victory points. Other infantry is going to outdo your Grave Guard in a lot of cases, and your vampires/characters aren't set up to make up the difference in CC. I might suggest consolidating your grave guard into 1 unit of 24 (keeping the great weapons). Maybe add a cart or 2 because ASF will make them brutal, if you use an upgrade go balefire IMO , and I'd only say use that if your gonna use 2, skip the lodestone all together, it's not worth 25 points. . Then you can drop the 2 banners your using, put the war banner with your skeletons, and maybe use banner of the barrows or Royal standard of Strigos on the guard to make them a hard hitting CC force.

Your magic will probably be inferior to any other magic oriented armies. Which is another reason for going to 1 unit of guard, you're going to have a hard enough time healing 1 unit, let alone 2 with your current magic set up. You may want to consider adding some items/bloodline powers to boost your magic phase. My personal setup is Master of the Black Arts/Forbidden Lore/ Lord of the Dead. Like I said earlier, I'd suggest another character that can throw some spells, along with making your lord a bit more "casty."


----

Thanks for the advice.

I desire with this list was to put two units of GG on the table in a 2k game to diversify the shooting and magic I would run into. I wanted low magic and more "fighty" in order to win combat toe-to-toe with most other heavy infantry like black orcs or chaos warriors.
My intention is to 'once dice' my magic phase to get a put unit of skellies with the Lord inside cleaning up. A WK in each GG unit.

The aura of Dark Majesty was an experiment that hasn't been full tested. In 2k you have to put him on your general. (In that respect, I want to try it out more to see if it works or not). Curiess for Bretts or Demons. If I loss my magic phase, unless I'm facing an all caster or shooting army, I should be able to once dice my way back up to full strength. His job is to stick with the skellies until I can exploit a weakness behind the enemy lines, spring him from the unit, and cause terror tests on troops and potentially run them in the direction of my infantry. Its a gamble to run him on his own, but with Move 18 I should be able to put him exactly where I need to.

I played once already with a similar list and did really well, but that was probably a fluke. I got chewed up by magic and dropped one of the two Vargulfs for a Necro with scroll. It's rare to have a low casting VC army, but I want to see how I can do with a fight CC army.

I kept both WKs to add to the punch the GG units had. I'm not trying to outflank my opponent with BK side charges, but to out muscle them in CC.
It is true, however, I risk footslogging to get to my enemy with either unit. I'm playing a WE army next and will find out truley having an all infantry army will be. Also, I will always put a musician even in my crappy units. They're worth their weight in points in a tie. All infantry are run in 6 wide for extra attacks. Plus, in my experience having only one GG unit means they're usually lost somewhere, unable to find the enemy and not getting into fights, (though that may have been poor deployment on my part)

Dire Wolves are meant to either protect the back of my GG or to run with the Vargulf. The Vargulf in the front and a unit of DW in the flank of a light infantry unit should work. The Doom wolf is to challange the character and let the Vargulf chew guys for that turn. I would never, however, charge a Lord in a unit or heavy infantry.

The two units of zombies are for the core choices and to distract enemy units into a tarpit . The field should look like a checkerboard with the zombies out in front.

I want to really test this list and then make the changes. Once again, thanks for the feedback. I got a Vargulf, unit of Black Knights, more vampires, and a unit of two corpse carts on the bench to jump into a new list should you both prove me wrong!

Malorian
25-09-2008, 17:28
I'm a big pusher for magic heavy but I realize you want to stay away from it so that's all I'll say on it.

Some things I noticed:

-Wightking number 1. Compare the price of the enchanted shield to the price of the barded nightmare. Basically for 2 points more you get the same save but better movement and a horse attack.

-Zombies, I assume they have a banner and not a musician.

-Doomwolves are useless. If you are trying to kill a mage then you are better off just having another wolf as the mage will actually want to be in a challenge because it's safer (2 attacks vs 3), and if you are trying to stop a fighty character from killing your unit the overkill bonus will just make you crumble anyway.

-Graveguard banners. The one with handweapon shields will be winning by static res so they should have the warbanner. The one with great weapons will be winning by kills so they should have the that helps them do that. I'd drop the other two magical banners to get a better banner here (even if it means making one of the wightkings a BSB)

-No BSB. Being a combat army you really should have a BSB. For 25 points not only does it add 1 CR to that units combat, but all it needs to do is save 3 skeletons from crumbling (or 1 knight) and it has already pretty much paid for itself.

VC Doke
25-09-2008, 19:05
I'm a big pusher for magic heavy but I realize you want to stay away from it so that's all I'll say on it.

Some things I noticed:

-Wightking number 1. Compare the price of the enchanted shield to the price of the barded nightmare. Basically for 2 points more you get the same save but better movement and a horse attack.

-Zombies, I assume they have a banner and not a musician.

-Doomwolves are useless. If you are trying to kill a mage then you are better off just having another wolf as the mage will actually want to be in a challenge because it's safer (2 attacks vs 3), and if you are trying to stop a fighty character from killing your unit the overkill bonus will just make you crumble anyway.

-Graveguard banners. The one with handweapon shields will be winning by static res so they should have the warbanner. The one with great weapons will be winning by kills so they should have the that helps them do that. I'd drop the other two magical banners to get a better banner here (even if it means making one of the wightkings a BSB)

-No BSB. Being a combat army you really should have a BSB. For 25 points not only does it add 1 CR to that units combat, but all it needs to do is save 3 skeletons from crumbling (or 1 knight) and it has already pretty much paid for itself.

True that the cost of a steed is comparable and has better movement, but I find it strange and little wrong when players put cavalry in infantry units.

Ya Dooms wolves aren't good for the points, but in a pinch that extra attack may be worth it.

I put Hellish Vigor in the HW unit, to make them more flexible and the War Banner to keep more of the GW unit alive when they get charged and only have a 5+ AS.

I need to invest in a WK BSB on foot. You're %100 right on that one.

Malorian
25-09-2008, 19:10
The extra attack can also be gained by using the points to get another wolve.

VC Doke
28-09-2008, 02:49
Also,

I will always put a musician in every unit possible. I once tied combat with a treeman and my unit of 20 zombies w/ musician made the tree run.
They couldn't chase of course, but it shut the tree down for a turn. :D

I won't put standard in units I expect to lose. A 100 pt. banner is worth more than the zombies that would have been destroyed.

Stay tuned: I'm coming out with a compromise list. VC DOKE's Army 2.0!

VC Doke
28-09-2008, 03:40
ampire Lord (1#, 400 Pts)
General;
Blood Drinker
The Cadaverous Cuirass
Crown of the Damned
Talisman of the Lycni
Lord of the Dead
Dark Acolyte
Master of the Black Arts


Wight King (1#, 140 Pts)
Sword of Kings
Enchanted Shield
Battle Standard Bearer

Wight King (1#, 110 Pts)
Great Weapon; Shield
The Gem of Blood

Necromancer (1#, 95 Pts)
Dispel Scroll
Black Periapt

Zombie Horde (20#, 84 Pts)
Musician

Zombie Horde (20#, 84 Pts)
Musician

Dire Wolves (6#, 58 Pts)
Doom Wolf

Corpse Cart (1#, 100 Pts)
Balefire

Skeleton Warriors (21#, 219 Pts)
Musician; Standard Bearer; Spears
Banner of Hellfire
Skeleton Champion

Grave Guard (17#, 259 Pts)
Musician; Standard Bearer; Shield; Heavy Armour
Standard of Hellish Vigour
Seneschal

Grave Guard (17#, 276 Pts)

Musician; Standard Bearer; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour
War Banner
Seneschal

Varghulf (1#, 175 Pts)

Total Cost: 2000