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Grom Wronghand
26-09-2008, 21:45
Last week I played a game using Dwarfs versus Daemons. Near the end, his plague bearers charged my organ gun and did nothing, but still won combat. They outnumbered and caused fear so my opponent said I'd need snake eyes so stay. I however was under the impression that because the crew were stubborn (gunner's pride rule), I could get by with a 9. Who was right? Thanks.

Also, can you occupy a building during the deployment phase?

TheDarkDaff
27-09-2008, 07:53
Your opponent was right. Stubborn lets you test on an unmodified Ld when you take a break test but being outnumbered by a fear causing enemy means you automatically break unless you can roll an insane courage result (it on pg 50).

You can deploy in a building if you want. There is nothing that stops you from doing it unless you are counting buildings as inpassable terrain.

TheWarSmith
28-09-2008, 22:58
Your opponent was right. Stubborn lets you test on an unmodified Ld when you take a break test but being outnumbered by a fear causing enemy means you automatically break unless you can roll an insane courage result (it on pg 50).


Darkdaff is absolutely correct.

The Red Scourge
01-10-2008, 15:22
Rock, paper, scissors.

Stubborn is rock, fear is paper ;)

Lord Inquisitor
01-10-2008, 15:28
I had this same issue crop up (we rolled a D6 for it in the end), but I think the key thing here is that rolling for snake eyes is not using your leadership, so stubborn doesn't kick in.

It's a tricky one, though, and I can see where you're coming from. The strangeness is that you can still make a break test even though you automatically fail it :wtf:

Ganymede
01-10-2008, 17:42
The strangeness is that you can still make a break test even though you automatically fail it :wtf:

I blame this pecularity on GW adding the Insane Courage rule in the first place. It is nothing more than unnecessary dressing.

Negativemoney
02-10-2008, 15:26
Just to add something here. Stubborn only makes you test on your leadership unmodified by Combat Resolution. This means that non-combat leadership modifiers will effect the leadership roll.

Lord Inquisitor
02-10-2008, 15:32
Ooooooh. That means that effects like the daemonic banner of -2 leadership affects stubborn troops? Will have to check that. Nasty.

narrativium
02-10-2008, 18:36
Lord Inquisitor: yep. The Masque can too. Stubborn or not, the opposing unit will not like you.

Couple that with Phantasmagoria and your opponent may feel compelled to throw things at you.

Lord Aislinn
05-10-2008, 07:48
Narrativium, I'm not sure that's right, as stubborn says test on your unmodified leadership, and the - 2 banner is a leadership modifier, so I'd disagree.

WLBjork
05-10-2008, 07:53
Lord Aislinn is semi-correct.

During a Break test, Stubborn units always use the Leadership value on their profile. (First sentence, second column, page 53)

Of course, this means that they will use modified leadership for other Psychology tets.

narrativium
05-10-2008, 11:53
Hmm. That's interesting. RAW, that's interesting - because it's not what's played.

Bear in mind that the rules for Break Tests mean you roll dice, adjust the roll, and compare to Leadership - Break Test modifiers do not modify Leadership.

Stubborn says you ignore Break Test modifiers - straightforward - and use the basic profile - which is a source of confusion.

We know the profile is static and the characteristics can be dynamic - Wounds is the obvious example. A spell cast might adjust the model's Toughness - Bear's Anger, Miasma of Pestilence - and a subsequent Toughness test (Stream of Corruption) is naturally assumed to affect the characteristic, not the profile value. The rules for Characteristic tests confirm this: rolls are made against the characteristic. The profile is only important if the value tested is a zero.

So, a rule to use a base profile, not a characteristic, means exactly that.

Note, for all those wondering what the consequence on Generalship is, that the General rule refers to a Leadership value, which I take to unambiguously mean the dynamic statistic, not the base characteristic. A Break Test involving a Stubborn unit with a nearby General rolls dice and compares to the Stubborn Leadership. If this is failed one may still adjust the dice roll and then compare to the General's Leadership. If this is failed the unit breaks. Neither Leadership value is modified by the test.

Result: a Stubborn unit uses its own base Leadership for Break Tests, and its modified Leadership (from the Icon, the Masque, etc.) is used for Panic, Fear, Terror, attempts to restrain, etc.

On the other hand, Phantasmagoria is still evil.

Ganymede
05-10-2008, 15:19
So, a rule to use a base profile, not a characteristic, means exactly that.


Result: a Stubborn unit uses its own base Leadership for Break Tests, and its modified Leadership (from the Icon, the Masque, etc.) is used for Panic, Fear, Terror, attempts to restrain, etc.



These are actually distinctions that don't exist in the rules. Take a look at what a profile actually is according to the rules.

"Every model imn warhammer has a characteristic profile, which lists the value of its different characteristics."

The stuff on a model's profile is not special or immutable, it is merely a collection of its stats. The rules also don't mention that there is a difference between base stats and changed stats. If some of those stats change (such as when under the effect of the Skullmantle) then the profile changes in turn.

narrativium
05-10-2008, 15:26
In which case... back to my original statement then. The Great Icon of Despair affects Stubborn troops, because it's not a combat modifier.