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Argastes
27-09-2008, 00:42
Not sure if 40K General is the right place for this, but I couldn't see where else it might go, so here it is. Mods, please move this thread if there's somewhere else it should be.

So I got to thinking about the Ork Stompas in Apocalypse, and how they are significantly larger than the Stompas in Epic 40K. I know, I know, there are not standardized size classes for Ork war machines, which makes it pointless to try to assign certain terms to certain sizes... but the Apocalypse Stompas are almost like smallish Gargants. I've never really played Epic, but I do know that under the Epic rules, Stompas are less like the superheavies/small titans that they are in Apocalypse, and more like the Ork equivalent of Leman Russes; in fact, they are apparently referred to as "Ruzzbots" for this reason. So I have decided to write up WH40K rules for an Ork walker that will fall somewhere in that size range; substantially bigger and meaner than a Dredd, but substantially smaller and less killy than the Stompas from Apocalypse. It's not a superheavy, just an ordinary walker, and it should be fine for use in normal-sized games of 40K (friendly games with your opponent's informed consent, of course!). It basically provides a heavy fighting vehicle for Orks, differentiated from the Battlewagon in it's heavier armament, lack of transport capacity, and improved survivability (plus the obvious fact that it's a walker, not a tank). For lack of a better term, I'm calling it a Ruzzbot, although clearly it is in fact a more powerful vehicle than a Leman Russ. Here are the rules I've worked up:


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Ork Ruzzbot (Heavy Support choice)
Points Cost: 200 points
Unit: 1 Ruzzbot
Type: Walker

WS4 BS2 S7 I1 A3 Front Armor 14 Side Armor 13 Rear Armor 11

Armament: 1 Belly Gun, 2 twin-linked big shootas, and 1 Dreadnought close combat weapon. Additionally, the Ruzzbot must choose one of the following weapons at the points cost listed: A Supa-Kannon (+50 points), a Deff Ray (+40 points), a Gatling Blasta (+40 points), or a Big Skorcha (free). The Ruzzbot may also be armed with a single Big Rokkit for +25 points.

Options: The Ruzzbot may take the following vehicle upgrades from the Ork codex: Grot riggers for +5 points, armor plates for +10 points.

Belly Gun: Range 24", S10, AP2, Ordnance 1, Large Blast
Supa-Kannon: Range 48", S8, AP3, Ordnance 1, Large Blast
Deff Ray: Range 48", S9, AP2, Ordnance 1, Blast
Gatling Blasta*: Range 36", S6, AP3, Heavy D6+2
Big Skorcha**: Template, S6, AP4, Assault 1
Big Rokkit***: Unlimited Range, S7, AP4, Heavy 1, Large Blast, Barrage

* Each time the Gatling Blasta fires, roll 1d6 and add 2; this is the number of shots it fires that time.
** When firing the Big Skorcha, place the pointed end of the template up to 6" from the weapon, with the rounded end of the template no closer to the weapon than is the pointed end. The shot is then resolved in the same way as a shot from any other template weapon.
*** The Big Rokkit may only be fired once per game.

Special Rules
Dead 'Ard: The Ruzzbot's large size means that it can take a quite a bit of damage and still remain operational. The first time in the game that a Ruzzbot suffers a "Destroyed" result on the Vehicle Damage table will count as a "Crew Stunned" result instead, as the Ruzzbot stands motionless and smoking while it's crew scramble to get it running again (Note that Armor Plates vehicle upgrade may not downgrade this to a "Crew Shaken" result). After the first "Destroyed" result of the game, apply vehicle damage results as normal.

Monstrous: The Ruzzbot is much bigger and stronger than dreadnoughts or most other walkers, and it's close combat weapon (typically an enormous power-klaw or a ten-foot chainsaw blade) is capable of tearing even a heavy tank in half with ease. Against vehicles struck by the Ruzzbot's Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon, roll 2d6 rather than 1d6 for armor penetration, and add a +1 modifier to vehicle damage rolls made for any hits inflicted. If the Ruzzbot's dreadnought close combat weapon is destroyed, these effects are lost along with the other benefits of a dreadnought close combat weapon.

Multiple Gunners: The Ruzzbot usually has a crew of at least a half-dozen Orks and Grots clambering around inside it's mechanical guts and operating it's various weapons. Consequently, during the shooting phase, the Ruzzbot may fire at two separate targets. Simply declare which weapons are firing at the first target and which are firing the second target (any weapon or combination of weapons can fire at either target), and resolve the shooting as normal. Both targets must be in the Ruzzbot's frontal arc at the same time; it cannot fire at one target in it's frontal arc, then pivot to shoot at another target that was outside of it's frontal arc when it was shooting at the first target.

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So there you have it: The Ruzzbot. As you may note, it has the same armor values as a Leman Russ Demolisher, and the Belly Gun is basically a Demolisher Cannon while the Supa-Kannon is basically a Battle Cannon with reduced range. The Big Skorcha is sort of a toned-down version of the supa-skorcha on the Apocalypse stompa, the Deff Ray is basically a lascannon with a small blast, and the Gatling Blasta looks quite nasty against MEQs (although given poor Ork BS, it will generally only hit one or two guys each time it's fired). The Big Rokkit is a single-shot, unlimited-range missile, similar to a hunter-killer missile, but with a large blast and indirect fire capability. Clearly, the Ruzzbot is quite a terror in close combat against vehicles (it's CCW basically combines the effects of a chainfist and an AP1 weapon), which I think is appropriate. The ability to ignore the first "vehicle destroyed" result of the game is quite good, but I don't think it's over-the-top; after all, the SM Venerable Dreadnought's special rule is probably more of a benefit. Between that and the ability to split fire (just like Long Fangs), I think the Ruzzbot echoes some of the advantages of true superheavies under the Apocalypse rules, representing that it's considerably bigger and tougher than a normal dreadnought, while still not being unbalanced for use in regular-size games.

Obviously, the points values are provisional in the extreme, and will almost certainly change as I continue to playtest with my regular gaming buddies who don't mind fooling around with homebrewed units and such. They are basically just rough guesstimates; I considered pricing it out with VDR, but since VDR is now two editions out of date and gave wildly inappropriate points values even when it was current, I decided not to bother. I'm sure plenty of people will be telling me that they think I've underpriced or overpriced this or that, and in many cases, they may be right and I'll take their suggestions under consideration as I play with the points values for this thing. Comments and criticisms welcome!

It may be a while before I get around to building a model to go with these rules; when I do, it will basically resemble a Stompa, but scaled down to roughly the size of a Leman Russ standing on end. Much bigger than a dread, but still significantly smaller than the stompas pictured in the Apoc book (and, presumably, smaller than the GW stompa model rumored to be in the works). I can always also use the model as a "true" Stompa in Apoc games.

So what do you think, fellow Warseer posters?

Lord_Squinty
27-09-2008, 01:03
Looks good, but its way underpointed for normal 40k.

For Apocalypse - only people you need to convince are you're opponents ;)


Belly Gun: Range 24", S10, AP2, Ordnance 1, Large Blast
Supa-Kannon: Range 48", S8, AP3, Ordnance 1, Large Blast
Deff Ray: Range 48", S9, AP2, Ordnance 1, Blast
Gatling Blasta*: Range 36", S6, AP3, Heavy D6+2
Big Skorcha**: Template, S6, AP4, Assault 1
Big Rokkit***: Unlimited Range, S7, AP4, Heavy 1, Large Blast, Barrage
So what do you think, fellow Warseer posters?

These alone mean it wont ever have to move and will be much more devastating than a LR anyday.

The key to designing vehicles is - would you want you're opponent to drop that against you?
And for 200+weapons points - I would say no,.

pox
27-09-2008, 03:57
ruzzbots are tiny, they're made from leman russ hulls, hence the name. (orks cant pronounce russbot.)

I have a few, I just use them as looted vehicles. use grabba klaws and wreckin balls for the arms. they are usually tracked anyway.

and your special rules are pretty strong even for apoc, much less a regular game of 40k. is the point of your post to use a cool model, or to use crazy rules? I would assess that first and go from there. like in the original VDR, you make the model first, then figure out how its gonna work. your rules in general are way too powerful, its got heavier ordinance than most super-heavies.
for 250 points, I can get a str10 ap2 large blast, and a strength8 ap3 large blast, able to fire both at two different targets?!?! this might be a fun special scenario model, but your opponent would surely be invited to take something that could handle it.

Argastes
27-09-2008, 04:21
The point of my post is neither to use a cool model or to use crazy rules; it's just to see what people think of my homebrewed vehicle. As for the point of the vehicle itself, it's partially to have some rules to use with a cool model I'd like to build, and partially to have in-game representation of something that's closer to an Epic stompa, since the Apocalypse stompas seem to be bigger than Epic stompas. And it's partially just something I whipped up on a whim because I was bored this afternoon. Yes, I want it to be powerful, but not "crazy" when the associated points cost is taken into consideration. Thus far the consensus seems to be that it's underpriced, which is definitely a possibility. I do appreciate the responses. There a few things I'd like to address, though:


For 250 points, I can get a str10 ap2 large blast, and a strength8 ap3 large blast, able to fire both at two different targets?!?!

Well, a Leman Russ Demolisher with a str10 ap2 large blast, a lascannon, two plasma cannons, and a better ballistic skill to use when shooting all those guns, is 185 points. Admittedly, it can only shoot at one target per turn, and doesn't have many of the other perks of my Ruzzbot. Still a good bit cheaper though, for arguably comparable firepower (especially considering the superior ballistic skill). Another way to look at it would be that a Vindicator with a str10 ap2 large blast, and a bare-bones Leman Russ with a str8 sp3 large blast, offer the same combined firepower and cost about the same combined price, roughly 250 points (yeah, I know they're from different army lists). They can also split their fire, being two different vehicles, and again have a better ballistic skill (as well as a longer range in the case of the Leman Russ) that will make their fire more effective. They do have weaker armor as well, although they are much more likely to be able to get into obscurement and thus ignore 50% of incoming fire. Of course, they don't have any close-combat abilities either...

I'd also disagree that it has heavier ordnance than most superheavies; it basically has a demolisher cannon plus a short-ranged battle cannon. A Baneblade (arguably the archetypal superheavy) has a demolisher cannon plus it's ridiculous super-battle cannon of a main gun (72" range, str9, ap2, TEN INCH DIAMETER blast!) and a half-dozen other heavy weapons such as lascannons, heavy bolters, and an autocannon. I think the Ruzzbot I've got here is well-armed, but it pales in comparison to an actual superheavy.

I'm not trying to say "No, you're wrong, my points cost is fine;" in fact, the more I think about it, the more I agree that this thing should cost more like 300+ points. Just trying to get a dialog going. Please feel free to criticize the comparison I just made. And thanks for the input! I honestly appreciate it, even if it already sounds like I'm trying to argue with you ;).

EDIT: As for Ruzzbots being "tiny", they may be small by Epic standards, but a fighting robot with a big body/head on top of a Russ hull is quite large in comparison to most 40K vehicles, I think. Such a creation would be about the size of, or even bigger than, the legged "mini-stompa" model I have planned to go with these rules.

sabre4190
27-09-2008, 04:32
Just for the record, what a perfect name. Very Orky, but you must refer to it as "da Ruzzbot".

pox
27-09-2008, 05:01
first off, let me say this thread in general is a breath of fresh air. its great to see someone going back to a different time, when the object was to throw down some models and have an epic fight. the rules now are streamlined for ease of play, which is great for a tourney, and not so great for a campaign or themed game. it sounds like you got a good group of guys to play with, so really the thing to do is get in the thick of it. go with your points, throw it in the mix, and either adjust your points as needed, or adjust your rules.

We need more threads like this, and more players like this.

at any rate, here's a few things to consider. orks tend to have high rates of fire/big blasts, but not a lot in the AP department. even the skullhamma is only AP3. the rules tend to get weird for AP 2 stuff, things like the shokk attack gun and the zzap gun. so maybe AP3 on the belly gun, and random strength for the deff ray?

as for the vehicle itself, it gets a few thing other vehicles don't. while the demolisher can have a las cannon, demolisher cannon, and two plasma cannons, it is limited to how many it can use at once. if it moves, it can fire the demolisher or one other weapon, if it stays stationary, it can fire either the main cannon or the las-cannon and two plasma cannons. in either case, it cannot fire at two different targets. I know you limited your bot with a more limited targeting rule, but if you find its not limiting enough, how about the glory hogs rule, or something similar?

I like the dead 'ard rule, although you might want to limit it to the "wrecked" result, so a lucky shot that pens and rolls a six will still pop it.

it also has some good fightin' stats, well on par with a defiler, but you may find the armor 14 problematic. even an ork warboss or dreadnought at str 10 can only glance on a four and pen on a five in CC, and most armies in CC are closer to the strength eight mark. apoc gets around this with the gargantuan creature CC rule, where you don't actually get locked in combat. (after every round fought, you move the models one inch away from it.)

I like the monstrous creature rule, but the +1 to the chart might be a bit too strong.

these are just my initial thoughts, and some suggestions on how to tweak the rules if you find it a tad too strong. its always rough coming up with new rules, especially how tactically different they can be, depending on your opponents army choice. I always like to have a few rules options, instead of just inflating the cost of it. orks especially suffer from this, due to low BS and random equipment.

totgeboren
27-09-2008, 11:14
The name "Ruzzbot" comes from the-waaagh (I believe), and refers to what was rule-wise just a looted leman russ (with the old codex, you could loot specific vehicles), remodeled to look kinda like a stompa. There are lots of different versions at the-waaagh, and size-wise, they are just a weee bit bigger than a Leman Russ.

The main difference between a Ruzzbot and a stompa is that stompas have legs (hence the name, and I know there are stompas in epic that have tracks, but when the name Ruzzbot appeared, there where no such stompas in the fluff). Ruzzbots have tracks, and therefore cant stomp!

I think it might fit better to just use the rules for a battlewagon, with whatever weapons you wanna throw on it, and a ard-case to make it Dead 'Ard. :)

The close combat arm can be represented by the Deffrolla. Reroll difficult terrain and d6 S10 against whatever you drive into? Fits perfect in my opinion.

And I must point out that a Battlewagon made to represent a stompa costs almost 200 pts, so not alot less than your version.

I dunno, your version does a whole lot more damage than using one from the ork codex, but doesn't cost much more.

Anyway, I applaud you for making your own rules, its always fun with new stuff, but as I have pointed out, there are two things that you might wanna think about.

First its that russbots have tracks. Your thingy is a stompa, since its a walker.

Secondly, a battlecannon AND a demolisher cannon on the same tank, and I believe your intent was that it can fire both at the same time? Thats Apocalypse territory, and I believe you should reserve such powerful offensive capabilities for real warengines.

Bunnahabhain
27-09-2008, 12:57
Another thing you might want to look at is the gaugantuan squiggoth. 200pts plus weapons, for a dead 'ard, shooty, stompy orky killy fingie!

It's a MC, so gets 2d6 armour pen in CC. It mounts up to 2 big guns, and lots of smaller ones. It's clearly not a million miles awy from what you want to do.

What I'd be tempted to do is use this as the basis of something to tone yours down a bit. I'd borrow the lumbering rule for a start (may move 6 in a straight line, make a limited turn, and assualt 6 in a straight line, may only assualt those straight ahead)
I like the direction, but think that two ordnance size weapons is a bit much.

I'd say one of the Ordnance weapons, plus 1 of the non ordnance ones, and a special rule allowing it to fire all weapons, even ordnance. The split fire and dead hard rules you've got seem sensible.

Argastes
27-09-2008, 13:45
The name "Ruzzbot" comes from the-waaagh (I believe), and refers to what was rule-wise just a looted leman russ (with the old codex, you could loot specific vehicles), remodeled to look kinda like a stompa. There are lots of different versions at the-waaagh, and size-wise, they are just a weee bit bigger than a Leman Russ.

The main difference between a Ruzzbot and a stompa is that stompas have legs (hence the name, and I know there are stompas in epic that have tracks, but when the name Ruzzbot appeared, there where no such stompas in the fluff). Ruzzbots have tracks, and therefore cant stomp!

I think it might fit better to just use the rules for a battlewagon, with whatever weapons you wanna throw on it, and a ard-case to make it Dead 'Ard. :)

The close combat arm can be represented by the Deffrolla. Reroll difficult terrain and d6 S10 against whatever you drive into? Fits perfect in my opinion.

Hmmm. In light of this, I think I would rather change the name of my creation than use battlewagon rules for it. What I am aiming for here is definitely a stompa-type big ork walker (albeit a stompa that's closer to Epic 40K stompas in scale, and suitable for non-Apoc games), not a tracked vehicle. I only called it a Ruzzbot because I under the impression that actual stompas in Epic were sometimes referred to as such. If a Ruzzbot is a tracked fighting machine built on a Russ hull, then my creation isn't a Ruzzbot, because it's definitely a walker. I don't want to use the battlewagon rules to represent it,for several reasons. Firstly, a battlewagon is a transport vehicle, which is not what I'm after here. Secondly, I feel that even a fully kitted-out battlewagon has less firepower than a stompa (even a scaled-down stompa that's considerably smaller than the Apoc versions) ought to have. Thirdly, I feel that the deff rolla doesn't really appropriately represent the close-combat power of a stompa; it would actually make my creation weaker in close combat than a normal dreadnought (because it doesn't ignore armor saves, unlike a DCCW), which I think is hardly right for what's supposed to be a sort of orky super-dreadnought.

Yeah, the ability to put down two pieplates on different targets each turn is definitely powerful, but if it's priced properly, I don't think it's so powerful that it's inappropriate for any non-Apoc game and only belongs on war engines. After all, a pair of Russes or Vindicators can do exactly the same thing (with better BS), and their presence in non-Apoc games generally isn't considered gamebreaking. I think that before I try this thing out in a game, I will increase the points cost to somewhere between 250 and 300 points plus weapons (so the final cost will be 300-350 points). That may turn out to be a bit OVERpriced for a vehicle that's probably about as survivable as a Leman Russ (assuming that Dead 'Ard special rule is roughly counterbalanced by the fact that a tank can more easily claim obscurement from terrain), but better safe than sorry.

Pox: Regarding the AP2 value on the belly gun, my goal for the belly gun rules was actually to make it a sort of toned-down, short-ranged version of the Deth Kannon on the Apoc stompas, which are AP1! So I think I'll keep it as AP2, though I may shorten the range to 18", to encourage this thing to get closer to the enemy, and also to differentiate it's statline from that of a Demolisher cannon. I picture it being a stubby-barreled cannon with an ungodly huge bore diameter, which thumps out enormous explosive shells at a very low velocity (probably less than 150 m/s). But I do like your suggestion about randomizing the Deff Ray's strength; how to make it better than a Zzap Gun, though? The arm weapons for this thing are supposed to be pretty potent. Perhaps auto-hitting like the old Zzap gun... I dunno, I'll have to think about it. I might also make it AP1 or give it a special rule like Melta, although if I did that, I would probably shorten it's range and make the belly gun AP3 as per your suggestion. EDIT: Oh yeah, it'll still have a blast template. That is probably enough to differentiate it.

Anyhow, thanks for the suggestions, and for the compliments!

TheDarkDuke
27-09-2008, 15:43
So you want a apoc rules walker in a normal game for an under costed price?

I don't think you understand every post here trying to help you out with this. They are not say you have it under costed by 30-50 points, they are saying the thing is under costed in a normal game by like 300 points. Lets run down some of the additional add on you are giving this thing too and the only other normal game available units point costs.

-14 front armor, and a single big gun run upwards of 200 points to begin with.
-Hard walkers in cc and range have to choose which to be better at and don't gain both and that comes in at around 200 points.
-2 guns of that size isn't found on anything non apoc. and anything carrying even lesser guns comes in a around 200 points.
-2 big guns like that and the ability to fire them both and at seperate targets doesn't happen in normal games but in apoc at best, and those run upwards of 400 points if lightly armored which this isn't.
-a free destroyed removed rule? for something orky and not even there big stuff? so add like 100 points for this ability.

In a normal game this really is in the 450-600 point range IMO as nothing else has half of its abilities, survivability, killing power in both range and cc.

Bunnahabhain
27-09-2008, 16:25
So you want a apoc rules walker in a normal game for an under costed price?

I don't think you understand every post here trying to help you out with this. They are not say you have it under costed by 30-50 points, they are saying the thing is under costed in a normal game by like 300 points. Lets run down some of the additional add on you are giving this thing too and the only other normal game available units point costs.

-14 front armor, and a single big gun run upwards of 200 points to begin with.

So a standard leman russ- AV14, one big gun runs to over 200pts? Odd my IG codex says 145 as cheapest legal build then.

-Hard walkers in cc and range have to choose which to be better at and don't gain both and that comes in at around 200 points.
Defiler??

-2 guns of that size isn't found on anything non Apoc. and anything carrying even lesser guns comes in a around 200 points.
If you mean anything with structure points, then you'd be right. They're not Apoc only though.

-2 big guns like that and the ability to fire them both and at seperate targets doesn't happen in normal games but in apoc at best, and those run upwards of 400 points if lightly armored which this isn't.
OK, 2 leman russes, 2 big guns, that can be fired at separate targets, with heavy armour, under 300pts. 2 basalisks, 2 big guns, with light armour, 200 pts. Assorted imperial armour options that are even better value.

-a free destroyed removed rule? for something orky and not even there big stuff? so add like 100 points for this ability.

In a normal game this really is in the 450-600 point range IMO as nothing else has half of its abilities, survivability, killing power in both range and cc.
Nonsense. See any of the Imperial M class heavy tanks. 2 structure point, so about the same as the 'ignore 1st destroyed result' in terms of resilience. Can split fire, and some of them can throw out two ordnance blasts a turn, although not at separate targets. Odd they're 300-400pts then.

Darnok
27-09-2008, 16:43
So a standard leman russ- AV14, one big gun runs to over 200pts? Odd my IG codex says 145 as cheapest legal build then. Defiler?? If you mean anything with structure points, then you'd be right. They're not Apoc only though.OK, 2 leman russes, 2 big guns, that can be fired at separate targets, with heavy armour, under 300pts. 2 basalisks, 2 big guns, with light armour, 200 pts. Assorted imperial armour options that are even better value.
Nonsense. See any of the Imperial M class heavy tanks. 2 structure point, so about the same as the 'ignore 1st destroyed result' in terms of resilience. Can split fire, and some of them can throw out two ordnance blasts a turn, although not at separate targets. Odd they're 300-400pts then.

Combining everything you said, you really seem to suppport the idea that the Ruzzbot with the given rules should be much more expensive.

While it is true that any ability on its own comes cheaper with other options (e.g. IG), some people really seem to miss to most important point: you get all that fancy stuff combined! This combination is worth more than the sum of its parts, especially as it has no real weakness. Tuff as nails, check. Hitty in CC, check. Dead shooty, check. Fancy special rules, check. And it even gives Orks some more heavy shooting in the high strength area, which they normally lack. As a conclusion: this beast should cost at least 400+ points, and I think it doesn't fit for casual play - don't even talk about a competitive environment. I could imagine it as a nice toy for Apoc.

P.S.: Don't get me wrong: I'm all for custom vehicles, even more so if they are supported by a great model. But it should then be used with reasonable rules, or be shifted to an Apoc environment.

Argastes
27-09-2008, 17:07
So you want a apoc rules walker in a normal game for an under costed price?

Ermmm... no. An apoc-rules walker would be a superheavy, with structure points and superheavy weapons (a 7" or 10" blast template). This has neither.


I don't think you understand every post here trying to help you out with this. They are not say you have it under costed by 30-50 points, they are saying the thing is under costed in a normal game by like 300 points. Lets run down some of the additional add on you are giving this thing too and the only other normal game available units point costs.

Undercosted by 300 points?? So it should be 550 points, when an Apoc stompa is 600 and has FOUR structure points, vastly superior firepower (S10 AP1 main weapon with a 72" range and 7" blast!), superior close combat performance, as well as being twice as fast (can move 12" per turn instead of 6"), and having a transport capacity of 20 to boot, as well as special rules such as Terrifying and the Stomp attack? I think you are trying to overcost this thing even more egregiously that I initially undercosted it.


14 front armor, and a single big gun run upwards of 200 points to begin with.

Not true. It runs more like 150 points, including a good secondary weapon (lascannon) and a ballistic skill of 3.


Hard walkers in cc and range have to choose which to be better at and don't gain both and that comes in at around 200 points.

Defiler with battlecannon and twin-linked autocannon (at a ballistic skill of 4), plus Strength 8, Initiative 4 close combat attacks that ignore armor saves and roll 2d6 for armor penetration, is good in both shooting and assault, and costs 150 points.


-2 guns of that size isn't found on anything non apoc. and anything carrying even lesser guns comes in a around 200 points.

Everyone seems to be really freaking out about the fact that this thing can fire two large-blast weapons; I'm not sure I understand why a single vehicle with two large-blast weapons is so utterly insane that it must only be fielded in Apoc games, but two vehicles each with a single large-blast weapon are perfectly fine in normal games.


-2 big guns like that and the ability to fire them both and at seperate targets doesn't happen in normal games but in apoc at best, and those run upwards of 400 points if lightly armored which this isn't.

It happens every time you take two vehicles that have big guns, which are a lot cheaper than 400 points even when they ARE heavily armored (e.g., Leman Russes).


In a normal game this really is in the 450-600 point range IMO as nothing else has half of its abilities, survivability, killing power in both range and cc.

I agree that my initial points costs was too low, but you really think this thing is worth FOUR Leman Russes or FIVE Vindicators? It definitely does NOT offer four times the destructive power and survivability of a Leman Russ. It offers maybe twice the destructive power of a Leman Russ, and slightly more survivability than a Leman Russ Demolisher (same armor values, gets to ignore the first vehicle destroyed result, but uses a taller model and thus can't take cover as easily, which is a big deal now that vehicles in cover get to ignore 50% of incoming fire). It is completely untrue that "nothing else has half it's abilities". It's not true for shooting, it's not true for assault, and it's not true for survivability.


While it is true that any ability on its own comes cheaper with other options (e.g. IG), some people really seem to miss to most important point: you get all that fancy stuff combined! This combination is worth more than the sum of its parts, especially as it has no real weakness. Tuff as nails, check. Hitty in CC, check. Dead shooty, check. Fancy special rules, check. And it even gives Orks some more heavy shooting in the high strength area, which they normally lack. As a conclusion: this beast should cost at least 400+ points, and I think it doesn't fit for casual play

I agree that the combination of all these abilities into a single vehicle counts for a lot. But I should also point out that concentrating all those abilities in one vehicle makes it easier for all of them to be removed from play by a couple of lascannon/multimelta/railgun/bright lance shots; despite this thing's good armor and ability to ignore the first "destroyed" result, it is still just a normal 40K vehicle, which will still probably be taken after a few penetrating hits. It's not a superheavy, it has no structure points. Again, I would estimate that it has roughly the same survivability as a Leman Russ demolisher: Same armor values, and the ability to ignore the first "destroyed" result is roughly counterbalanced by the fact that a tank can take cover more easily, and cover really enhances a vehicle's survivability in 5th Edition.

400 points strikes me as an upper limit, not a minimum. Again, that's nearly as much as THREE basic Russes, which will have better firepower and better survivability.


don't even talk about a competitive environment

I didn't. First post made it explicitly clear this is for fun games with my buddies ONLY. I would think this would be so obvious it doesn't need to be said... Did anyone really think I was going to show up to a tourney, plunk down a made-up vehicle on the table, whip out my homebrewed rules for it, and expect to be able to use it???

Darnok
27-09-2008, 17:22
First post made it explicitly clear this is for fun games with my buddies ONLY. I would think this would be so obvious it doesn't need to be said... Did anyone really think I was going to show up to a tourney, plunk down a made-up vehicle on the table, whip out my homebrewed rules for it, and expect to be able to use it???

I know. I just said it again, because in my opinion it can't be stressed enough.

But even for friendly games this little buddy is undercosted. I stated my reasons, and maybe your friends are fine with your points cost. I just know I wouldn't.

And there is a lot of space between your first try of 200 points and the much cited upper end of 600. I think it's worth something between 300 and 400, and that. Remember that in Apoc the SH vehicles are costed with a simple fact in mind: in Apoc there are lots of ways to deal with them. Of course they have structure points and really haevy weapons, but normally the other side has them as well. In a normal game of 40K those realations just don't hold. So don't compare pointcosts between 40K and Apoc, unless the vehicle in question is already made for the latter.

Argastes
27-09-2008, 17:31
I think it's worth something between 300 and 400, and that.

Yeah, this is what I'm leaning towards after looking at what people have to say in this thread. Earlier in the thread, in my response to totgeboren's comments, I said I'd revise the points costs to be something like 300-350 points with weapons.

pox
27-09-2008, 21:17
I went looking for the name of the class of stompa, but could not find it. I believe its a tinbot, but I couldn't name the source. after they came out with tinboyz for 40k, there were larger ones in epic, and I'm pretty sure they were called tinbots. at any rate, bigger than a dread, but smaller than a stompa. if there isn't one in that size category, there should be, haha.

it sounds like you have enough rules ideas to get the project underway, you should fire up a WIP thread over in MP&T so we can follow your progress. once you have the guns in place, you can always tweak the rules.

totgeboren
28-09-2008, 09:31
Just wanna point one thing out. You cant really compare points with the IG stuff, since this beast will be made for orks.

You need to compare it to the available options in the ork codex. So, you could use the battlewagon as base for points.
An AV14 closed-topped vehicle with a S7 range 24" ordinance gun costs 165 pts. Even if if you skip the transport ability (like -20 pts, and give it a big shoota), orks pay more for a leman russ with a horribly sub-standard main gun than IG does for their Leman.

I mean, just upgrading the killkannon to the belly gun should cost atleast +50 pts (since orks pay horribly much for their big guns). So right there you are over 200 pts, and you wanna add some extra small guns, and a close-combat weapon?

I realize you have said you will revise the points, but just keep in mind that you cant compare costs with the IG codex.

Its got alot better firepower than 2 battlewagons, and can take about the same amount of punishment, and they would cost around 350 pts. Its (arguably) better in close combat than 2 deffdreds, and they would cost around 250 pts.
It doesn't have the Battlewagons weakness in close-combat, and it doesn't have the deffdeads weakness at range. How much it that worth in a normal 40k battle?

I don't know, but atleast 350 pts. That the minimum you have to pay for 2 battlewagons with ordinance weapons, and this one got much much better guns. Also this thingy got non of the weaknesses that the battlewagons have. On the contrary, its really good in close combat, where the battlewagons are horribly vulnerable in close combat.

Seen from that light, be prepared to pay out your nose for this.

Argastes
28-09-2008, 14:30
Yeah, I've now changed the points cost to 300 points plus weapons, so final cost will be 350 points if you choose the supa-kannon as it's arm-mounted weapon. I also toned down it's CC performance a bit, reducing it to 2 Attacks on it's profile, and removing the ability to add +1 to vehicle damage rolls from it's close-combat attacks (still rolls 2d6 for penetration, though). I think that 350 points for this thing as it currently stands is reasonable.

Your argument above is a good one, but I would think that the battlewagon's transport capacity is worth more than you make it out to be. The battlewagon is a quite good assault transport, which counts for a lot. And now that it only has 2 attacks in close combat, this thing is definitely not as good as 2 deff dredds in melee; Two S10 power weapon attacks that roll 2d6 for armor penetration is definitely inferior to six S10 power weapon attacks that roll armor penetration normally. Deff dredds are also I2 whereas this thing is I1, which I think is fairly significant because it means deff dreads will get to strike before troops with PFs and chainfists, whereas my Stompa won't.