PDA

View Full Version : new dwarfs!



leeoaks
11-11-2005, 23:42
all i can say is the book is good good good....anyone else read it??

Dodgy Ed
12-11-2005, 00:01
Yeah, still messing about with the lists, overall it looks good although I do have a few issues with it:

Thunderers, the +1 to hit always is nice but overall I preferred the move and fire from the current book

Gunners Pride, characterful but it removes the option of tactical retreat (not one I often use anyway)

Special choices, Ahhhhhh there's so god damn many of them, it would have been nice if they could have moved some around to rare choices instead of over crowding the specials so much.

Ultimately I see the main problem is the combination of gunners pride and Thunderers getting move or fire means that an already slow list becomes even more static.

BUT, and it's a big but I think this is more than off set by the character which they have achieved with the book, it feels right for all characters to come with Gromril armour by default, all the little tweaks (organ gun in particular) add up to a nice list, and I'm looking forward to trying out a few things, in particular using a runed and engineered cannon to hold a flank on its own... (well we can all dream can't we:evilgrin: )

Tactically I'm looking forward to trying out some new stuff, a miner heavy army of doom, led by Lords Thanes et al looks like it could be potentially abusive tho'.

Overall I'm well pleased, it feels more like an update rather then a total change, which is all the dwarfs needed.

But why oh why do they call crossbow dwarves quarellers, whilst I know this is what crossbows fire it just seems to be a ridiculous name.

<Edited for clarity>

Ivan Stupidor
12-11-2005, 00:06
But why oh why do they call crossbow dwarves quarellers, whilst I know this is what crossbows fire it just seems to be a ridiculous name.

Because "crossbowmen" is inaccurate, "crossbowdwarfs" is just plain awkward, and the Thunderer-style "twangers" polled poorly among test audiences.

And don't underestimate those cannons. Even in the old list, I held flanks with them. Dwarf crew rock.

Dodgy Ed
12-11-2005, 00:22
Oh far from under estimating the crew, I think it might now be possible, with a bit of luck of course. especially now the cannon has dropped in price a bit. I like the idea of having a dug in cannon with five crew, modelled after a big American civil war trench mortar, I can visualise a dwarf army looking a bit like the bridge scenario in The Good The bad and The Ugly, even one of the new engineers will do as the dwarf with no name.

Edit I maintain Quarellers is also plain awkward and irritating to type but I guess it'll have to do

khargrim
12-11-2005, 12:45
Hi there.

Could you tell, Dodgy Ed, how is it possible to make an entire all miner army? Is it legal in the new book or only playable with the other`s agreement?

skavenguy13
12-11-2005, 13:46
Well, if you have the book, why not give information in the rumours section, and confirm/infirm some info already given.

Dodgy Ed
12-11-2005, 14:25
It's not possible to make an all miners army, but you can fill up the special choices with miners and minimise on core, you can also give characters a rune that allows them to deploy with miner units. Meaning that it is feasible to have up to 4 units deploy from the side or rear of the table, complete with characters to give them that little extra punch.

Of course to do this you lose out on a lot of tasty artillery and units but it could act as a very effecient character delivery service if you can get them there on turn 2 (quite likely given the steam drills ability to re-roll the chance to turn up)

Overall I'm only kicking ideas around at the moment but if you take a unit of rangers as core you're then left with only one compulsory choice sitting in the deployment zone. Making strategic deployment against dwarves a tough prospect.

But as I said this probably won't be that common, tho' I might try it a couple of times just for fun.

Hypnotoad
12-11-2005, 14:36
One quick question: Is it true Slayer armies have been made illegal?

Freak Ona Leash
12-11-2005, 14:38
It's not possible to make an all miners army, but you can fill up the special choices with miners and minimise on core, you can also give characters a rune that allows them to deploy with miner units. Meaning that it is feasible to have up to 4 units deploy from the side or rear of the table, complete with characters to give them that little extra punch.


If I still played WHFB, I would be going ecstatic right now. A Miner Lord was always something I wanted...ah well, back to playing WAB it is then...

Quetzl
14-11-2005, 16:14
Sounds awesome can't wait to get the book.

Crube
14-11-2005, 16:20
OK, i realise i may be missing something here, but...


Dwarf Army box released 10 December


Today = 14 November

How you get book?

Me want book

:D

LaughinGremlin
14-11-2005, 18:18
A Hellblaster can deter enemies from a flank, so maybe the organ gun can do the same now. Has the rune returned which allows a warmachine to explode, thus damaging the enemy? Double "wammy!" Is there any new info that hasn't already been said?

I was always fine with "quallerer," because "bolter" is already used by 40K.
I call my hillbilly - banjo - playin' dwarfs "twangers."

"Jedediah, looksy dair! orcs!" *followed by the sound of dueling banjos*

Alfginnar Oakenshield
14-11-2005, 18:33
Ahh I'm looking *SO* much forward to getting the book!

Too bad it isn't released before the 17th in Denmark *grumble*

Can you perhaps tell more about special characters?

AO

truthsayer
14-11-2005, 19:05
I'm with Crube. I dont want to be told about any spangly new rules.

I just want the book!!!!!

How have you guys got one? or looked at one anyway???



Oh and how would Truthsayer go about gettin one?

Gratnuk Ironfist
15-11-2005, 06:52
Well that's a real buuble bursta, why remove the move and fire from thunderers? How do you use them as flank guards now?:confused:

shen-yong
16-11-2005, 21:05
Is the artwork different in the new book than in the present one?
(ie. should I buy the current version AB for the pictures?)

neXus6
16-11-2005, 23:22
There are a fair few new pieces of artwork, but as would be expected there are a large number of illustrations from the previous one also in there.
The new ones are pretty cool though from what I remember, I wasn't paying as much attention to the art as I should have been.

Michaelius
17-11-2005, 08:58
Hmm just wondering but could you tell us which units are cheaper now? No specific points just which ones got reduction in price :)

NetGuru
17-11-2005, 09:33
To anyone who has read the book, whats the fluff like? I saw on a GD UK slide that they mentioned something about restoring the full background, and wondering what they ment by that?

Sylass
17-11-2005, 09:56
Hmm just wondering but could you tell us which units are cheaper now? No specific points just which ones got reduction in price :)
Clansmen are a point cheaper now if I remember correctly?

Avian
17-11-2005, 12:13
Surely you jest. They are a point more expensive, because their default armour is heavy and not light.

Sylass
17-11-2005, 12:32
I was quite sure about that for some reason, but maybe my memory was fooling me. Sure they didn't get a point reduction?

Something along the lines of "heavy armour instead of light armour, but same pointcosts"?

Avian
17-11-2005, 12:41
The discussion went:

"Oh, and Warriors are a point more expensive."
"Hmm, I wonder why? Check what armour they come with - maybe it's heavy now."
"Yeah, you're right."

WanderingRogue
17-11-2005, 12:50
read the book last night too (though i dont posses it myself) very spangly and characterfull. a load more runes, and some existing ones have been changed for the better. anvil of doom! rocks! my first purchase this morning from the independant down the road. if i remeber corretcly miners are cheaper and so are hammerers, but i was more looking at options and stats in the 45 min read.

quarrelers come with the option of great axes!! so im thinking these now become the flank guards when given some numbers and command (maybe), thunderers loosing move and shoot is a bit disapointing my +1 to hit all then time is a nice touch. miners are my personal fav by are competing with ALLLOT of other special choises.

Oathstones are a nice touch too - not runes so dont come out of your magic allowance, making comming up with some rune combo's and tactics a joy to look forward too.

Artworks very nice. and its bugman, the anvil character and the throned dwarf king that are the special characters (did not want to embarrass myself by misspelling names). i know that the throne adds a heap of wounds to the kings stats effectivly making him a big nasty creature rather that a character riding a war machine or chariot.

jerrytown
17-11-2005, 19:42
Artworks very nice. and its bugman, the anvil character and the throned dwarf king that are the special characters (did not want to embarress myself by misspellign names). i know that the throne adds a heap of woould to the kings stats effectivly making him a big nasty creature rather that a chacter riding a war machine or chariot.

hi there,
(first post :) )

do you know if these are the only characters in the book ?
i was kindda hoping the "asterix looking" dwarflord on a shield was still around; don't care much about the runelord special character, but that one was an amazin' mini.

jerrytown

neXus6
17-11-2005, 19:45
The ""asterix looking" dwarflord " doesn't have rules as a special character in the new book.
But the model is far from useless.
;)

jerrytown
17-11-2005, 19:49
The ""asterix looking" dwarflord " doesn't have rules as a special character in the new book.
But the model is far from useless.
;)


PH THANK GOD !!!
it was truely an amazing model.

from the rulebook, i only wanted four things, bring back the throne of power from 5th ed, bring back engineer burlong (sp?) (the guy with the steampunk arm), the gyrocopter, and the mini....
three out of five... ain't bad at all
(though i always liked the fluff about that engineer, he was one crazy mo* :D )

jerrytown

LaughinGremlin
17-11-2005, 20:30
Yup, Burlock Daminson and his B.I.O.N.I.C. arm! The "update" on the webpage will still have to suffice. He's my fave too.

Instead of a particular special character, The shield bearers will be an upgrade to a basic Dwarf Lord, and that is why your model isn't worthless.
I like this new rule. Let's see if people create their own shield bearer conversions with uniquely equipped lords.
I considered using the old blood bowl grudgeroller as an "engineer guild master" leading a regiment if the base size for shield bearers became 40x40. I figured that the grudgeroller would give the engineer lord-like stats, extra attacks, etc. *splat*

As for the Throne of power's replacement, I think it would be cool to make a little airship which would be hovering just off of the ground, and the "basket" would be designed to allow the king to fight. There'd be a few dwarfs behind him in the basket acting as "steering crew."

NetGuru
17-11-2005, 22:05
Is the model of Bugman new? Or is it the old model?

Nazguire
17-11-2005, 22:51
Is the model of Bugman new? Or is it the old model?

Old Bugman. Not a new Bugman. So more classical Dwarf goodness.

Can't believe how great Thorgrim looks though :eek: Though I can help but picture some sadistic and evil modeller using green stuff to create a Santa hat for him:cries:

neXus6
17-11-2005, 22:55
Instead of a particular special character, The shield bearers will be an upgrade to a basic Dwarf Lord, and that is why your model isn't worthless.
I like this new rule. Let's see if people create their own shield bearer conversions with uniquely equipped lords.

Aw, I didn't say that cause I wanted to leave anyone who hadn't read it a nice surprise.:(

Alfginnar Oakenshield
17-11-2005, 23:22
Nice thinking there neXus6, although I think most people already know this.

@Nazguire: Owh... Nasty pictures showing up my head! But he is a splendid model. Looking forward to put some paint on the old bugger.

AO

Harek Doombringer
20-11-2005, 17:14
One quick question: Is it true Slayer armies have been made illegal?

Gratnuk Ironfist
20-11-2005, 20:17
Well they're allowed in GT here in NZ and clib games I don't know about where you are. Have they changed bugmans rules taking into account the dwarfs winning the bugmans lament in the WD?

Tulkas
20-11-2005, 20:36
They shouldn't have. The Bugman's Lament is something that's already happened (hence Bugman's history). It's nice to see they won (haven't read the BR yet) but it shouldn't change anything at all IMO.

jerrytown
20-11-2005, 23:51
are the rules the same for the rock thrower/lobber ?
cuz i've noticed it has now a new name, something along the lines of grudge bearer or something of the sort; so i was thinking, maybe it has some new rules...

jerrytown

skavenguy13
21-11-2005, 04:14
Grudge thrower. And by the looks of the model, I wonder if it can move from now on. Maybe like the trebuchet.

And about the stone that cancel flank and rear charges, how long does it last?

Gratnuk Ironfist
21-11-2005, 06:56
I believe the oathstone lasts for the whole game, so it's gunna to take a bit of practics to use it probably.

WanderingRogue
21-11-2005, 09:34
i think the oath stone works from the time you use and then for the rest of the game ( i belive) i scanned the rules/fluff.

looks like u can move arround normally than when you about to get charged you flip the stone on the floor - the character sais "no ones gonna move us otherwise this will be were we make our last stand" and then you cant move for the rest of the games but have alot of bonuses.

capture missions would be funny if you can get one on there.

Alfginnar Oakenshield
21-11-2005, 14:56
About that stone:

You can place it as a charge reaction only. After that your unit has no flanks and rear, magic resistance for the entire game. If the unit leaves behind the stone (ie. if they are broken in combat) you loose the victory points for the character who brought in the stone.

Good option, but not plain easy to use.

AO

Harek Doombringer
21-11-2005, 22:22
Okay, I think I is time to make a complete and true version of all the changes and post them here, in one post not scattered all over the place, I think it should be here and now not later, so if anyone has any new rules info post it here, no repeats. I'm not mad, I just want to be able to see a organized list before the book comes out, so I know what to expect, I hate waiting and not knowing.

WanderingRogue
21-11-2005, 23:35
ok - 100% certain.

miners get a stand and shoot attack for xxpts. normall rules for turning up, plus a option for a strength +3 greatweapon which allows a reroll for turning up.

thunderers are same but: not move and shoot; +1 to hit all the time


i'll be reading it tom so more from me then.
g

Dodgy Ed
22-11-2005, 00:03
Ask and ye shall recieve

Certainties, (as much as any pre release info can be.)

Chars:

oath stone what ^^he said

All now come with Gromril armour as standard, included in thier points cost.

Lords can ride shields in to battle

Runelords +2dd and runic treasures, basically up to xx pts of runic items for unit champs etc.
Anvil of Doom, now works in the shooting phase, powerful but oh so very prone to *********** up big time

Master Engineer now BS5 Now gives bonusues depending on war machine, including effectively turning the cannon into a gt cannon. They also give a fortification, effectively a deffended hard cover obstical for one war machine, makes it immovable tho.

Slayer chars all T5 now

Core:
Warriors can be upgraded to longbeards(every other unit if you so choose), complete with a few funky rules Heavy armour as standard

Crossbowdwarves now called Quarellers, have option for gt weapons also

Thunderers see above post

Rangers now a 0-1 upgreade for any core choice, allows them to scout but no more woodsmen and the idea of +1 M is total BS

Special:

Gunners pride war machine crew cannot flee but they are stubborn.

all war machines' option to buy an engineer as a crew champion, bonus dependent on war machine.

Cannon now 20% cheaper

Stone thrower a tiny points drop, now called a Grudge Thrower.

Miners are now special but not 0-1

Slayer weapons now count as either GW or HW's.

Rare:

Organ gun can reroll the artillery dice if it doesn't misfire, any further misfire is not rolled on the table

Gyrocopter free to move/fire on the turn it rallies.

Obviously there is also a smattering of funky new runes, including one that makes chars immune to killing blow, and ones that allow chars to deploy with miners/rangers.

Gratnuk Ironfist
22-11-2005, 01:16
Now who in their right mind removed the foresters rule from rangers? What do you do with them now since you can't put them in a forest? Are they skirmishes?

Great to hear we finally have 2DD for a Runelord.

I was wondering, if you drop the oath stone beofre a combat and then win it, are you able to pick it up and move normally?

TheKid
22-11-2005, 02:25
I'm thinking of starting a dwarf army. Can anyone email me some info on them?

jerrytown
22-11-2005, 02:42
so basically the grudge thrower is a normal rock lobber then ??

runes that make characters immune to killing blow.... hum, i think i just had an evilgasm !
(though it probably costs a bundle)

btw, how does the organ gun work now ? like a hellblaster ? how many artillary dice does it roll ?

jerrytown

Dodgy Ed
22-11-2005, 13:13
@Gratnuk. Nope once the oath stone is down it's down for good,. Also rangers are not skirmishers, so yeah they're a bit nerfed but I can see some uses for them.

@Jerrytown, yep just a normal rocklobber. Killing blow rune, trust me when you see the points cost you will have an evilgasm, it's equivalent to the re roll save. I'm liking the idea of making an unkillable, unbreakable runelord. Give him the anvil, 1+armour rune, re roll armour save, 4+ward, immune to killing blow and a few re roll d6 runes, and he still comes in under limit. Although probablly only effective in games of 5K+

organ gun, one artilllery dice, if you roll a misfire you're screwed, like always. If you roll some hits, but it's low you can re roll the dice, this can-not cause a misfire, but you must stand by the result. A misfire result just ends in a hang fire.

Gratnuk Ironfist
22-11-2005, 19:19
No sweat TheKid I have sent the e-mail, hope to see you soon. And for starting the greatest and most characterful army you deserve a round of beer.





Umm, that'll have to be at Khazad Grom.

Mouldsta
22-11-2005, 23:36
MOD's: please edit anything that you feel is a breach of copywrite

well just read the dwarf book today, here's what I remember (I don't play dwarfs, so not sure on points changes or stat tweaks). there's also tons of runes, so I gave up reading them.

Alot of this will be a repeat of what other have said, because lots of the rumours are true;

handgunners move or shoot with +1 to hit.

oathstone can be given to thane/lord for some/slightly morepts respectively (doesn't come out of allowance) - can place it as part of a hold action, upon which point the unit doesn't count as having flanks or rear (so no bonuses for opponent, or penalties for dwarfs). unit can't move after this, and hero that has oathstone has to issue challenges. Hero can't leave unit, and no other hero can join unit. If forced to move (flee) then opponent gets full VP for the character with the oathstone due to the dwarf's shame.

Runelords generate 2 DD.

Anvil is pretty damn cool - counts as shooting (so no being dispeled). has 3 runes, which can be struck either normally or with "absolute power". normal striking is 2+, AP is 4+ if the rune fails then you have to roll on misfire chart (not very devestating, just miss next turn etc). The runes are reroll fear and terror checks (normal), or immune to fear + terror, as well as reroll panic + break (absolute power). the second rune is move one dwarf unit (not gyro) again, or move D3 units (absolute). the last is a bit of a fiend - D6 str 4 magical hits, and target has speed halfed or can't fly (if they had fly). Absolute power is 2D6. i don't remember it having a range.

lord can ride shield, gives him a bonus 2 WS5 str 4 i3 attacks (with no weapon bonuses), and +2 to his armour save.

rangers are upgrade to warriors (and some others maybe) for 1pt per model, allowing them to scout.

slayers get slayer axes, which lets them choose either 2HW or GW at start of combat

slayer characters are both T5 and (according to the guy reading over my shoulder) have a points break. for each slayer character you can have another unit of slayers

engineers are war machine upgrades, allowing either use his BS or reroll misfire (cost minimal pts)

master engineer are hero's @pretty cheap pts and allow one warmachine to be entrenched (doesn't have to be theirs). can use their BS for bolt thrower, reroll scatter for grudge launcher, or D6 wounds for cannon.

miners can have weapon on their champ that lets them reroll dice to see if they turn up, and gives +3 strength strikes last (giant rock drill)

special character is rather silly, is a large target and has 7 wounds. (throne dwarf)


that's all i can remember at the moment.

Ziom
23-11-2005, 08:12
Do you know something about anti-magic? is it hte same or something new was added?

Michaelius
23-11-2005, 10:47
Same as it was exept for runelord giving 2 DD

TWB
23-11-2005, 12:43
Mouldsta, please remove all points values from your post. Thanks

Gratnuk Ironfist
23-11-2005, 19:20
So effectively a dwarf lord can now have a 1+ AS in CC without any runes, that is awesome.:D :D

truthsayer
23-11-2005, 22:44
So effectively a dwarf lord can now have a 1+ AS in CC without any runes, that is awesome.:D :D


Sick isn't it. i played against the new dwarf's today and let me say this

Never! underestimate a dwarf army with an Anvil of Doom with Oath and Honour, a BSB with Strollaz's Rune and first turn!

Some good rolling got him 3 units 18" across the board in turn 1!!!

jerrytown
23-11-2005, 22:53
slayers get slayer axes, which lets them choose either 2HW or GW at start of combat

engineers are war machine upgrades, allowing either use his BS or reroll misfire (cost minimal pts)

master engineer are hero's @pretty cheap pts and allow one warmachine to be entrenched (doesn't have to be theirs). can use their BS for bolt thrower, reroll scatter for grudge launcher, or D6 wounds for cannon.

miners can have weapon on their champ that lets them reroll dice to see if they turn up, and gives +3 strength strikes last (giant rock drill)

special character is rather silly, is a large target and has 7 wounds. (throne dwarf)


engineers allow for re-rolling misfires... but for bolt throwers, the "present" army book has engineers able to reroll the attack die; is it still so now ?

the engineer heroe allows for D6 wounding for cannons ? they finally fixed it ?
OMG !!! i was always VERY discontent about this discripancy between the dwarf's cannon and the empire's. but... rerolling THAT D6... THAT IS VERY nasty :D

what is an "entrenched" warmachine ? what does it give you ?

miner champions get a +3 strength weapon ? oh god yes ! you still strike first on a charge with it, right ? i mean, yes i know dwarfs charging is like santa appearing in front of me... it only happens when we're REALLY drunk (:D ), but... it can happen.

just a question to all you dwarf players out there:
what would you guys rather take ? (knowing what you know about the new book) 2 runed up bolt throwers or 1 runed up cannon ??
i also used to take 2 gyrocopters (2 rare choices) in my games, should i drop one and get a organ gun ? is it worth it now ?

thanks,
jerrytown

truthsayer
23-11-2005, 23:09
engineers allow for re-rolling misfires... but for bolt throwers, the "present" army book has engineers able to reroll the attack die; is it still so now ?

Engineers and Master Engineers only give their increased BS to bolt throwers now, no more re-roll


the engineer heroe allows for D6 wounding for cannons ? they finally fixed it ?
OMG !!! i was always VERY discontent about this discripancy between the dwarf's cannon and the empire's. but... rerolling THAT D6... THAT IS VERY nasty :D


Yep D6 wounds. still the smaller cannon though.


what is an "entrenched" warmachine ? what does it give you ?

its like hard cover and a defended obstacle. work out the benefits for yourself ;)


miner champions get a +3 strength weapon ? oh god yes ! you still strike first on a charge with it, right ? i mean, yes i know dwarfs charging is like santa appearing in front of me... it only happens when we're REALLY drunk (:D ), but... it can happen.

Oh Gosh they certainly will be getting a few more charges off now! read my post above to see what i mean!


just a question to all you dwarf players out there:
what would you guys rather take ? (knowing what you know about the new book) 2 runed up bolt throwers or 1 runed up cannon ??
i also used to take 2 gyrocopters (2 rare choices) in my games, should i drop one and get a organ gun ? is it worth it now ?

Cant answer that as im not a dwarf player although 2 bolt throwers with relevant engineers will hit mor often and with the rune of penetrating have the same base strength as a cannon.

Oh and you'll want a new organ gun! and a Gyrocopter.

Mouldsta
23-11-2005, 23:12
I don't think they can reroll misses with the bolt thrower - the normal engineer is dirt cheap (like unit champion upgrade points), and the hero is BS5 (but i would never make him join a bolt thrower - cannons every time)

It's not a blanket thing, it's only D6 wounds for the cannon he joins, but still...

I'mm 99% sure the big rock drill acts exactly like a +3str great weapon, so goes first on the charge. Miners also have explosive charges which can be used as a stand and shoot reaction (once), and they're str6 i believe (sorry, lots of info had to cram it's way into my head in a relatively short space of time)

An entrenched war machine counts as a defended obstacle, and as hard cover (i.e. -2 to hit)

leeoaks
23-11-2005, 23:35
An entrenched war machine counts as a defended obstacle, and as hard cover (i.e. -2 to hit)

and 6's to hit the crew!

jerrytown
23-11-2005, 23:46
I don't think they can reroll misses with the bolt thrower - the normal engineer is dirt cheap (like unit champion upgrade points), and the hero is BS5 (but i would never make him join a bolt thrower - cannons every time)

It's not a blanket thing, it's only D6 wounds for the cannon he joins, but still...

I'mm 99% sure the big rock drill acts exactly like a +3str great weapon, so goes first on the charge. Miners also have explosive charges which can be used as a stand and shoot reaction (once), and they're str6 i believe (sorry, lots of info had to cram it's way into my head in a relatively short space of time)

An entrenched war machine counts as a defended obstacle, and as hard cover (i.e. -2 to hit)

so, it's only D6 wounds for the cannon he joins :( , oh well, from what i've understood, it's quite cheaper than the empire's cannon now. (atleast something is something, no ?)
now... this explosive str 6 charge.... hum... interesting
cuz, the mean reason with miner tactics was that they would always get charged (well, not always) when they pop-up; so this could help quite a lot.
can't wait for dec 10th.

jerrytown

truthsayer
24-11-2005, 00:12
The cannon has a 20% reduction in price on the emp one until you add the engineer.

Gratnuk Ironfist
24-11-2005, 00:23
just a question to all you dwarf players out there:
what would you guys rather take ? (knowing what you know about the new book) 2 runed up bolt throwers or 1 runed up cannon ??
i also used to take 2 gyrocopters (2 rare choices) in my games, should i drop one and get a organ gun ? is it worth it now ?

thanks,
jerrytown[/QUOTE]

Well on the greatest dwraf forum there are a couple of threads with about 30+ replies each about which warmachine is best, personally I love a warmachine that doesn't blow up and "skewers" those pesky silverhelms like freshly cut mushrooms.:) And their two for one special.

Atzcapotzalco
24-11-2005, 00:52
Probably the two bolt throwers, although the new book does shift things significantly in the cannons favour(from *nearly always* the two bolt throwers). But the bolt throwers might be BS4, and have the master rune of skewering. Overall they are more reliable to hit, twice the targets to be taken out, only marginally weaker in practice, and cheaper. Plus only take up one choice between them. My rare choices are one flame cannon, plus *possibly* an organ gun(more likely not it has improved range and reliability). Don't really see how a S3 gyrocopter competes with a S5 panic causing flame cannon, plus my southlands lizardman army give me more than enough grief trying to manage those ********* flying bases.

Gratnuk Ironfist
24-11-2005, 00:54
Ro Skewering 'eh? Interesting,:cool: does it work well and vs whom? My rare slot is either for malakai or gyro,but I might be sliding to organ gun with it's lovely new rules.

Bran Dawri
24-11-2005, 13:08
Overall they are more reliable to hit, twice the targets to be taken out, only marginally weaker in practice, and cheaper.

??

In my experience it's the cannon that is by far the more reliable warmachine. Since it has apparently dropped in price, that's not likely to change.
A Bs3 bolt thrower is more likely to miss as it is to hit, and adding runes to it ups the cost to where its comparable to a cannon, in which case I'll go with the S10, thank you.

I may, however, try to squeeze the points for an organ gun somewhere (only used a single gyro until now for my rare choices).

Atzcapotzalco
24-11-2005, 22:22
Bolt thrower is basic 4+ to hit at up to 24", 5+ further away. Even on a good guess a cannon depends on two good rolls on the artillery dice, for the extra distance and the bounce. And this is going to tip in favour of bolt throwers-a bolt thrower with an engineer can use his BS of 4, while a cannon only gets to reroll on the misfire table, and is no more likely to be on target. Plus bolt throwers are also slightly cheaper. And while you can get a cannon to do D6 wounds with a master engineer, you can also put the same master engineer with a grudge thrower which already does D6 wounds and get to reroll the artillery dice, giving a much lower risk of a misfire.
Master rune of skewering as a one shot fixed 2+ to hit is pretty much multi-purpose against anyone for a single reliable shot.

Cyrush
24-11-2005, 22:56
runic treasures, basically up to xx pts of runic items for unit champs etc.

Are you sure? Thats amazing, no, more, fantabilisticly orgasmically good.

I also heard Hammerers were droped in points to 12pts, is that true too?

Bran Dawri
24-11-2005, 23:27
I heard that the runic treasure thingy had been dropped, but hammerers apparently were dropped to 12 points a pop. I can hear the high elf players whining already.
(Although to be fair they do have some cause, now.)

Dodgy Ed
24-11-2005, 23:46
Bang on with the cost of the Hammerers. What can I say, the runic treasures rule is in what I have read, but it ain't that great, it's only one of any given item, essentially it can give a unit a cheap magic banner or a cheap item for a champion the same limit as the elf version (Special choice champions having a small magic item allowance)

truthsayer
25-11-2005, 00:59
I think its partly due to the fact that in a 2k army with a runelord you lose the fighty ability of a lord and so they needed to give a unit champ a little something to help out in combat.

WanderingRogue
25-11-2005, 08:51
yea - i,ve started designing my dwarf army now and taken the rune lord and anvil in instead of normal lord. i just think the idea of being able to move 12 inches a turn is too good an oppertunity to pass up.

a majour factor was always that a togged up lord/hero with runes of ass kicking death never really had a chance to get in to combat if the enemy wanted to avoid him. this is now somwhat negated -yay!

takes up a hero choise but you do end up with 7 dispell dice, another war machine if you use it like that or a perfect way to help with speed or fear/terror armys.

im thinking id rather have a few choppy champions and thanes zipping(kinnda:) ) round the table and get a few combined charges than trying to get an out of breath lord in contact with somthing worth while.

also thinking of a oath stoned long bead/thane "trapper" unit. scout, character with oath stone, choppy stuff & rune that allows a break test on 1 d6. plow em in asap and they will (hopefully) hold the enemy(s) in combat while the rest catches up and the mediun sized gun line takes out the opposite flank.

im not so worried by small flyer units now either(subborn gun crew wth championS!!) HAPPY DAYS!!

Avian
25-11-2005, 10:13
also thinking of a oath stoned long bead/thane "trapper" unit. scout, character with oath stone, choppy stuff & rune that allows a break test on 1 d6. plow em in asap and they will (hopefully) hold the enemy(s) in combat while the rest catches up and the mediun sized gun line takes out the opposite flank.
Awww, this is really quite sweet. I use a similar bait tactic with my wolf riders all the time and now you dwarf players get to do it as well. :)

A clever opponent does not usually fall for obvious baits, though. And this sounds like a very expensive bait unit.

WanderingRogue
25-11-2005, 11:10
quite possibly - but the joys of the new book inho is that new tactics can now be tried - and some of them may turn out to be actually viable (;) pleaseopleaseopleaseoplease).

Im just deterimed to have a sucsessfull offensive dwarf army that doesnt rely entirely on shooting.

Alfginnar Oakenshield
25-11-2005, 13:14
Awww, this is really quite sweet. I use a similar bait tactic with my wolf riders all the time and now you dwarf players get to do it as well. :)

A clever opponent does not usually fall for obvious baits, though. And this sounds like a very expensive bait unit.

Throw in the RoChallenge (basically MRoTaunting, but much cheaper, and not a standard rune anymore), and force your enemy to charge you :p

However, the downside is that the oathstone can only be taken by your general, and is it not a little risky to put you general in a bait unit?

Can anyone confirm/deny the "ancient treasure" rumour? I mean people who have actually seen the book?

AO

Avian
25-11-2005, 13:25
I thought Thanes could have them as well?

Oh, well. Has anyone confirmed whether or not Longbeards can still get a runic standard?

truthsayer
25-11-2005, 13:29
Thanes can have Oathstones too. The same price as sword of might.

The runic treasures is true in the version i have.
The Runelord can give a runic standard or runic weapon to a unit/unit champ who cannot normally have one. ie. thunderers or engineers.

oh and longbeards can have a runic standard to the same cost as 2 war banners.

SilentPsycho
25-11-2005, 15:02
I haven't seen anyone mention that thanes and dragon slayers have an improved toughness and a larger magic item alowance. thats sick

Lathaine
25-11-2005, 17:33
Are there any alternate army lists at the back of the book? I dought it given that the last three books haven't had them but I wanted to know if they kept any of the altrernate armies from the last book and SoC or simply made the list diverse enough to let a good general build a theme like those lists allowed into his army.

Gratnuk Ironfist
25-11-2005, 19:09
Now in the old rules longbeards were my favorite special and I preffered them to hammerers and ironbreakers,but I need to know it the new rules are their stats (i.e. WS 5, S4,T4,LD9, Immune to Panic) still the same as in the old book.

Atzcapotzalco
25-11-2005, 19:20
No alternate army lists but yes quite a lot of room for variation. Rangers are the only troop option limited to 0-1, and they can be an upgrade to any unit of crossbowmen, clan dwarves, or longbeards with great weapons giving them a lot of variation in equipment and ability(although strangely, they still have to carry great weapons). Of other units slayers are limited to 1 plus 1 for every slayer character and longbeards are every other clan dwarf unit plus an extra 1 if your army is led by a lord, neither of which are very harsh restrictions, and none of the other units are limited in number past the usual restrictions on special or rare choices. Don't really see the issue with T5 dwarf heroes since its the same toughness bonus a lot of other heroes have.
Yes longbeards are still as good, they can be cheaper since shields and great weapons aren't compulsory anymore.

Stouty
25-11-2005, 19:30
Are they still WS 5 though?

WanderingRogue
25-11-2005, 22:23
yep, ws5 s4, immune to panic, plus "old grumblers" - all units in 6" can reroll panic.

1 long beard core choise per warrior unit +1 per dwarf lord.

looking at the book and cant find anything that give champions acess to runes, though longbeards units etc can have standards.

g

Lady's Champion
25-11-2005, 22:26
i assume those stats are for the longbeards? nice

The Black Aquila
26-11-2005, 02:08
Is the +1 more unit of Longbeards than normally allowed if you take a lord, mean that if you have no Clansmen units you can take just 1 unit of Longbeards? Since it would be 1 more unit than you would be allowed normally since normally you'd be allowed none if you take no Clansmen :D

Alfginnar Oakenshield
26-11-2005, 08:49
Just to clear up the oathstone:

Both thanes and lords can take it, but ONLY the general. This means only one oathstone per army.

AO

WanderingRogue
26-11-2005, 09:29
the exact wording for the long beard thing is "allows one more long beard unit than it has warriors". so you could have no warriors, 1 long beard unit and bulk out your core with the missile troops.


@alfginnar - im looking in the book and i honestly cant see that said anywhere. (im not saying your wrong per say - but i just cant see it specified anywhere) -not said under the oathstone or character rules.

the stones have to be nominated to a particular unit and the chaaracter is not allowed to leave this unit,nor is any other character allowed to join it (so no super units)

Alfginnar Oakenshield
26-11-2005, 15:23
Hmm... Well you might be right! I just assumed this after reading the WD preview, that was what they wrote.

But today I got myself a peek in the book, and I can see that you are probably right (although it was a short look so can't really tell)!

Sorry!

But it is a good thing! That means many more tactical options. :D

AO

Tulkas
26-11-2005, 18:48
I had a look at the crew sprue yesterday and I'm really impressed. The plastics look great, a 100% improvement compared to the old plastics. The detail is really going deep, no wondering "is this beard or is this helmet?"

Just wanted to share this.

WanderingRogue
27-11-2005, 00:55
@alfginnar - ph yes! yes indeed. some grudges are gonna get settled in the comming months. Stoke up the black powder! sharpen your axe! the short ones are back and prodding buttock!

my tactical options so far are centering on the anvil and some nice butt kicking infantry choises. moving 12" a turn ! oh yea

@tulkas - yea me too - verytasty - but did have one thing pointed out to me - some modellers poor sence or humour!. read the runes on the organ gun barrels! see what they spell!

Gratnuk Ironfist
27-11-2005, 08:54
For the new longbeard rule does that mean if I have two units of warrior units I need three units of longbeards? Hhmm, I hope the upgrade to longbeard is reasonable.:cool:

WanderingRogue
27-11-2005, 10:58
no it means if you have two warrior units your allowed up to 3 longbeard units if you have a dwarf lord and allowed up to 2 if not.

boogle
27-11-2005, 11:24
Re the Oathsotne, can you return to it and gains its bonuses? (ie if you flee from it, can you return to it later?)

WanderingRogue
27-11-2005, 12:36
oh no - its lost if you run away. plus you loose all the point for the character even if he railies ( such is the shame)

boogle
27-11-2005, 12:38
do you then lose his points again if he is killed/legs it off the table? (personally if my Dwarf Lord ran from his Grudgestone and rallied, i would send him on a suicide mission to try and at least restore his honour)

WanderingRogue
27-11-2005, 13:30
no you only loose it omce - so that sounds pretty much what would happen. in "real" life.

boogle
27-11-2005, 14:28
then it seems like a good idea to detach him from that unit and then go off and kill as much as you possibly can with him

Gratnuk Ironfist
28-11-2005, 07:36
I must say even though it would be hard to use well, without a lot of practice. It really is a brillant idea, dwarfish, tactical and origianl the guy who came up with it deserves a pat on the back .... or at least a beer.:D

Atzcapotzalco
29-11-2005, 01:10
OK I suppose having seen the book properly I should offer my opinions.
The revisions to artillery are good, the organ gun needed the boost to be truly worth taking and both its upgrades and the bonuses granted by engineers give dwarf war machines an edge in reliability that seems somewhat characterful to me. And its very nice to have a useful master engineer instead of a joke.

I also like the improved hero characters, nice to see dwarf characters which are genuinely tougher than their counterparts, even if runesmiths lose out by comparison. Guess I'll be retiring the few I still ever bothered with. Oathstones are, as mentioned, very good in terms of both character and potential usefulness, although completely immobilising the unit is a massive drawback.
Longbeards as upgrades to warriors, I like being able to take a few as core, and espescially like not having to give them great weapons.
Love being able to take more than one unit of slayers, have a lot of them and felt one unit and being a special choice was too severe a limit. Really nice to have the option of taking a slightly more slayer-heavy force without the massive sacrifices of the all-slayer army(Namely having none of the other dwarf units at all).
One of my favourite bits, the new standard runes, espescially the increased options in the below 50-points range, which always seemed somewhat limited.
Ambiguous about the move-or-fire handguns. On the one hand, they are now among the top few best missile units in any army, on the other hand move-and-fire is a big loss, and removes one difference between them and crossbowmen. Speeking of which, overjoyed to see the return of crossbowmen with great weapons, a unit mighty enemies have learned to fear in the past.
Rangers losing the foresters rule is a good call since while a lone unit specialising in outdoor combat enough to scout is OK, lets remember that they are dwarves and not wood elves. Longbeard rangers are an intriguing idea, but I really wish they didn't still have to carry great weapons, possibly the worst piece of equipment imaginable for sneaking up on anyone with.
OK enough praise now for some good proper dwarf grumbling.
Leaders carried into battle on shields belong in comic books, and dwarf characters already have a high enough save. Enough said.
5+ seems a somewhat small minimum unit size for the special units, even given they aren't compulsory choices. That said, maybe this is balanced by none of them actually being practical in such small numbers.
New miners have a serious image problem. Between the experimental hand-held steam weapons and the dynamite throwing, their overall image is heavily unhinged.
Speaking of which, my biggest grumble, the new anvil of doom. It simply doesn't belong in a dwarf army, combining very powerful effects with a high risk of blowing up a venerable and theoretically sensible runelord. Espescially inappropriate for anything dwarfish is the ancient power. A suicide overlord setting, confirming that this is in fact a skaven artifact mistaken as dwarfish by an evidently senile and slightly crazy runelord. Plus while the movement and immunity to psychology runes seem good, I have serious reservations about the balance of the attack rune. What is not yet clear is that it can hit *any* unit, anywhere, regardless of range, LOS, or any intervening obstacles, and that affected units move at half rate next turn and cannot fly. This makes the normal version only possibly balanced by a low damage rate, and the ancient rune obscenely overpowered, capable of effectively crippling some armies in one or two rounds. And since there are no restrictions on targets, the only defence is to hope it blows itself up.

WanderingRogue
29-11-2005, 08:30
. What is not yet clear is that it can hit *any* unit, anywhere, regardless of range, LOS, or any intervening obstacles, and that affected units move at half rate next turn and cannot fly. This makes the normal version only possibly balanced by a low damage rate, and the ancient rune obscenely overpowered, capable of effectively crippling some armies in one or two rounds. And since there are no restrictions on targets, the only defence is to hope it blows itself up.

Yep thats why i got one and plan on taking it to tourneys. Its also why i have a lord and second miner unit on the way so i dont loose any friends.

truthsayer
29-11-2005, 11:38
Actually the rune of wrath and ruin (the attack one) requires the runelord to be able to see the unit he is using it against so its not that bad. Ok it can do some damage if it goes off on full power but thats still a lot of random rolling to do anything

2+ to cast once on low power. 1 to 6 hits, then rolling to wound. then saves.

4+ to cast on high power. d3 units. 2d6 hits. roll to wound. then saves.


Oh and the Runelord is trying to strike old runes he may or may not fully understand so if it blows up its his own fault!

The Black Aquila
29-11-2005, 18:51
Oh and the Runelord is trying to strike old runes he may or may not fully understand so if it blows up its his own fault!

Point made, most of the Runelords who knew how to use them properly without them blowing up in their faces are long gone and it is now just more often a hand down to their apprentice or some such that learnt from their master how to use it, but would on most occasions not evend are use the ancient powers or even take the thing to battle unless absolutely nessary! Thorek is the only Runelord around now really that knows how to use it properly, reason he may cast Ancient power on a 3+, still risky but it makes me feel a lot more comfortable for some reason than 4+ :D .

Bran Dawri
29-11-2005, 20:33
So Kragg the Grimm has officially passed away, then? If anyone should know how to use those ancient runes, it's him (even though he's not an official special character anymore).

Quetzl
29-11-2005, 21:03
Only one more month and I'll be able to get some... I really do look foward to creating loads of Dwarfs from the battalion, I can't wait to get my hands on the cannon set.

In terms of the rules, it sounds like the Dwarfs are slightly above their human friends in terms of technology. I mean they taught the humies how to make the stuff and they got better at it... I don't think so???? But yeah, I'm happy that the Dwarfs have a technological edge over the Empire now.

Atzcapotzalco
29-11-2005, 22:29
Actually the rune of wrath and ruin (the attack one) requires the runelord to be able to see the unit he is using it against so its not that bad. Ok it can do some damage if it goes off on full power but thats still a lot of random rolling to do anything

2+ to cast once on low power. 1 to 6 hits, then rolling to wound. then saves.

4+ to cast on high power. d3 units. 2d6 hits. roll to wound. then saves.

Oh and the Runelord is trying to strike old runes he may or may not fully understand so if it blows up its his own fault!

But the effect on movement is automatic, not dependant on doing any damage, and crippling to many flyers which lack a significant ground movement at all. Combined with the damage, that's far too harsh.

As for the exploding runelord, he's still dwarven, and sensible enough to be cautious, and the anvil is still supposedly a dwarven artifact. Thing is, it's a lot more unstable than a dwarven artifact should be, and the risk of blowing up completely is too much to add to the already hideous penalty of immobilising the runelord. The risk is partly compensated for by the effects, but a combination of overwhelming power and a high tendency to explode simply doesn't belong in a dwarven army. Essentially, this is a skaven weapon, not a dwarvish one. Maybe if it didn't have the suicide overload setting it would only be slightly out of place, as it is it simply doesn't belong at all.

truthsayer
29-11-2005, 22:52
But the effect on movement is automatic, not dependant on doing any damage, and crippling to many flyers which lack a significant ground movement at all. Combined with the damage, that's far too harsh..

It's still line of sight from the runelord though. Its basically the same as putting a flyer in front of anything remotely able to hurt or panic it. Use the fly move to stay out of its way like you would a cannon.


As for the exploding runelord, he's still dwarven, and sensible enough to be cautious, and the anvil is still supposedly a dwarven artifact.

Hence the power level options! You dont have to use the 4+ level all the time, you could just use the lower setting and have it misfire as often as any other war machine.


Thing is, it's a lot more unstable than a dwarven artifact should be.

It isnt the anvil that's unstable, the problem is the Dwarf manning the thing. He's hammering out Runes that he may not fully understand, If he hits it wrong or doesn't say the right words whilst doing it he has to pay the consequences.


the risk of blowing up completely is too much to add to the already hideous penalty of immobilising the runelord. The risk is partly compensated for by the effects, but a combination of overwhelming power and a high tendency to explode simply doesn't belong in a dwarven army. Essentially, this is a skaven weapon, not a dwarvish one. Maybe if it didn't have the suicide overload setting it would only be slightly out of place, as it is it simply doesn't belong at all.

A Dwarf player will have to make some big decisions when using the Anvil then wont he. If he has any doubts at all about the Anvil then he should instead use a Lord with Shieldbearers!

I dont think it has a high tendency to explode unless you're really unlucky in the first turn or just push for the maximum every turn! The Skaven army has many random things in its force, from what i can see the dwarfs have a few but most can be changed (think engineers and runes) to avert or nullify bad doings.

Then again you could give your Runelord the rune of Luck!

Atzcapotzalco
30-11-2005, 00:58
Hence the power level options! You dont have to use the 4+ level all the time, you could just use the lower setting and have it misfire as often as any other war machine.


Except it isn't any other warmachine, since you are risking your lord level character, who you've already rendered immobile and unable to join a unit, more than penalty enough in a dwarf army. As for not using suicide overload, you seem to misunderstand my objection, which is that a dwarven artifact shouldn't *have* a suicide overload setting in the first place.
[/QUOTE]

It isnt the anvil that's unstable, the problem is the Dwarf manning the thing. He's hammering out Runes that he may not fully understand, If he hits it wrong or doesn't say the right words whilst doing it he has to pay the consequences. [/QUOTE]

The dwarf manning it is an old and venerable runelord, who is both learned and sensible. If he was unsure of a given rune, he wouldn't take unnecessary chances, just use the powers he knew were safe.

[/QUOTE]
I dont think it has a high tendency to explode unless you're really unlucky in the first turn or just push for the maximum every turn! The Skaven army has many random things in its force, from what i can see the dwarfs have a few but most can be changed (think engineers and runes) to avert or nullify bad doings. [/QUOTE]

Skaven have many potentially deadly but unreliable warmachines, as is in character for them, and dwarf warmachines are maybe less potentially devastating but(espescially with the new options) a good deal more reliable, as is in character for them. The current anvil of doom, being spectactular but explosive, is very recognisably a skaven, rather than dwarven, artefact.

[/QUOTE]Then again you could give your Runelord the rune of Luck![/QUOTE]
Fortunately re-worded to be to-hit rolls,to-wound rolls, or saving throws, otherwise they would be a cheap way of unbalancing the anvil. And just in case it isn't obvious, the runelord and anvil I occasionally brought out because I liked the model are now permanently retired. Whatever it's relative merits in gameplay, it's irredeemably out of character for a dwarf army.
Plus I just got the chance to double check the targetting on rune of wrack and ruin, and it is *any* enemy unit, anywhere, confirming it as among the most obscenely overpowered things in the game. Wouldn't have been so bad if LOS was required.