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Gokamok
29-09-2008, 10:58
I've been spending quite some time fiddling about with different army builds for this years GT, most of which were really good, some of which were complete rubbish, and a few somewhere in between.
In the end however, I've had to also take my rather limited economy into account, which means that I can't go overboard on buying new models, meaning that too many Blood Knights, Ghouls, Corpse Carts and a few other things are basically a no-go.

[Note: I've posted this list on Warhammer.org some days ago, so if you've already replied to it there, don't expect to see anything new here;)]

So, this is what I think will be the final army:

Vampire Lord
-Master of the Black Arts, Forbidden Lore, Lord of the Dead
-Skull Staff, Power Stone, Talisman of the Lycni, Biting Blade
-Lvl 3
455 points

Vampire
-Dark Acolyte, Lord of the Dead
-Black Periapt, Helm of Commandment
190 points

Necromancer
-Sceptre de Noirot, Dispel Scroll
105 points

Wight King (BSB)
-Cursed Book, Gem of Blood
-Lance, Barded Skeletal Steed
177 points

14 Skeletons
-Full Command
132 points

14 Skeletons
-Full Command
132 points

10 Skeletons
-Full Command
100 points

6 Dire Wolves +1 Doom Wolf
66 Points

6 Black Knights
-Full Command
-Barding
-Royal Standard of Strigos
243 points

1 Varghulf
175 points

3 Wraiths +1 Banshee
225 points

Total: 2000 points
Power Dice: 10, +1 to cast on Lord, 1 Power Stone
Dispel Dice: 6, +1 to dispel, 1 Dispel Scroll
Starting Models: 62
Scoring units: I can raise Zombies. 'nuff said.
Kill points for the TA scenario: 18

A few thoughts of why I've taken the different choices:

The Lord:
Magical Powerhouse. With the Periapt and Powerstone, he can use a whooping 10 PD in a single crucial turn, which translates to an average of 4 succesful casts of Vanhel's! If I want that flank charge, I'm damn well getting it:D
Skull Staff is utterly insane when casting Vanhel's or IoN. Getting Vanhel's off on a 6+ gives a 72% chance of casting it on 2 dice, and the 1-dice IoN is nigh unstoppable with casting values of 5-8.

Other Vamp:
Backup IoN guy. Will sit in the bunker (or hide somewhere if I need the bunker to fight) along with the Necromancer. Helm and Periapt are basically must-have items, and I prefer DA+LotD over Master of the Black Arts since I find that the extra level adds some flexibility in terms of what spells I can cast.

Necromancer:
Zombie spammer/Dispel Dice pressure. With the Lord able to cast Vanhel's, I settled for Raise Dead on this guy. Sceptre de Noirot is nice in that it gives (close to) a free IoN on the raised units. I expect a lot of opponents to spend DD on stopping the d3+9 zombies, which will give my vampires more opportunities to cast.

BSB:
I had (and still have) a long debate with myself as to whether I should bring a Vampire or Wight BSB. The Wight King is awesome in that he transforms my unit of Black Knights from being a hard hitting unit into something that will break almost anything on the charge. They'll produce about 9 points of CR when charging heavy infantry.
The alternative would likely be a Vampire BSB with Dread Knight, Lord of the Dead, Enchanted Shield and Book of Arkhan. 38 points extra for less survivability, no ethereal movement, no KB, but +1 PD/DD and a bound spell. I like the Wight King most right now, but someone might be able to change my mind.

Core:
Skeletons instead of Ghouls because Ghouls are filthy creatures, and I can't afford to buy 80ish of them
I think the size of the units is about right, I've experimented with 3x10, but I feel that I'm limiting my magic a bit by forcing myself to spend most of my dice on IoN for the first few turns.

The Dire Wolves are made as an anti-Bloodthirster/Dragon/other-evil-stuff unit. For those that don't know the trick, the Doom Wolf will challenge the evil biggie, take 6 wounds for max overkill, which means I lose combat by 5 points (US 12 on the last wolfies), leaving 1 wolf "alive" to prevent bad guy from moving in his next turn and then getting swarmed by Zombies.

Black Knights:
I often run these guys as 1-2 units of 5 with barding and no other upgrades as infantry support. Due to the rules for the TA scenario, I've decided on taking a single strong unit backed by the BSB, which also provides my army with a proper hammer unit. 14" ethereal charge with S6 killing blow and hatred? Yes please.

Rare:
The Varghulf seems as the perfect choice to lead a flank attack along with the Black Knights and Wolves. M8, Terror, and all the other good stuff this guy brings is a bargain at 175 points. I was considering the coach (mainly because I don't have a Varghulf yet) but the fact that it's unable to march is problematic in the cases where I would want to use a fast moving flank force.

I've never been a big fan of Wraiths in tournaments, especially not with all the demon armies running around. However, Wraiths are so utterly rude against armies that are low on magic that I think they'll pay off very well. I've kept the unit size low and included the Banshee in order to not make them too much of a liability against Deamons and spirit heavy WE.

Sooooooooo, I hope that anyone that has made it through all of this ranting would be willing to drop some thoughts/comments on the army.

Ps.
If you are not familiar with the rules for this years UK GT, you're still highly encouraged to share any thoughts

Gharof von Carstein
29-09-2008, 14:15
my thoughts? dont take the wraiths. in that small a unit they wont help any and a banshee has never done me anything more but wishing it was a wraith and a dispell scroll.

clearing up those 225 points effectively means one of three things:

1. more skellingtons, which is always a good thing
2. another varghulf and more skellingtons or dispell scroll(s)
3. another unit of black knights (and a dispell scroll)
4. fell bats and dire wolf units for some serious screening, flanking and hunting action.

the choice is yours. any of these options sound better to me than a small wraith unit that will almost certainly get shot to tiny little bits.

LION
29-09-2008, 17:08
:)I like the list & the tactical options it gives you. My only fear would be that your Vampire Campanion Units are a tad small. If they get hit by concentrated shooting or Hell forgives a decent combined charge then crumble issues may occur......LION

Gokamok
29-09-2008, 18:37
:)I like the list & the tactical options it gives you. My only fear would be that your Vampire Campanion Units are a tad small. If they get hit by concentrated shooting or Hell forgives a decent combined charge then crumble issues may occur......LION

I'm not too worried about the size of the Skeleton units, on average, I'll get 4ish IoN off each turn against 10 DD (assuming no modifiers), and I'm not likely to face that heavy magic defense in most games (I hope:)).

Gokamok
29-09-2008, 18:56
my thoughts? dont take the wraiths. in that small a unit they wont help any and a banshee has never done me anything more but wishing it was a wraith and a dispell scroll.

clearing up those 225 points effectively means one of three things:

1. more skellingtons, which is always a good thing
2. another varghulf and more skellingtons or dispell scroll(s)
3. another unit of black knights (and a dispell scroll)
4. fell bats and dire wolf units for some serious screening, flanking and hunting action.

the choice is yours. any of these options sound better to me than a small wraith unit that will almost certainly get shot to tiny little bits.

With WS from Helm of Commandment, the 3 Wraiths will inflict 4/5 wounds each combat round (against T3/4 enemies), which I believe would be enough to swing most combats my way, so I won't agree that they're useless in their current size.
The Banshee can be very useful against enemy flankers, since they tend not to have all too high Ld, and also tend to be too far away to benefit from the general. Besides, I've found Banshees to have a huge psychological impact in several games, since most opponents are afraid to let knights and lone characters get within screaming range.
As previously stated, I'm not very keen on bringing a big unit of Wraiths, since I expect a lot of Daemon armies at the GT.

I could replace the Wraiths with another Varghulf or a coach, but I'm not quite convinced that either of those options would be better. Blood Knights are unfortunately not an option, due to the models being so ridiculously expensive:mad:

More wolves/bats are problematic, since one of the three scenarios only gives VP for units that are completely wiped out, meaning that too many small, un/lightly armored units are likely to be a liability.

VC Doke
29-09-2008, 19:14
A couple things:

You "trick" with the direwolves won't work.
-1 When you lose combat you use wounds not US. 6 models take wounds with no armor save if you lose combat by 6.
- Your math is wrong in the challenge anyway. The wolf takes a wound, THEN there is 5 more overkill points (if the BT does it), You would outnumber with your US of 10 vs his (is it 5?)

For crying out loud put some protection on you general.
When you miscast (and you will) you're going to get screwed. If one model dies in your army you will most likely get massacred or lose to a minor victory if you're lucky.

Gokamok
29-09-2008, 19:52
A couple things:

You "trick" with the direwolves won't work.
-1 When you lose combat you use wounds not US. 6 models take wounds with no armor save if you lose combat by 6.
- Your math is wrong in the challenge anyway. The wolf takes a wound, THEN there is 5 more overkill points (if the BT does it), You would outnumber with your US of 10 vs his (is it 5?)

For crying out loud put some protection on you general.
When you miscast (and you will) you're going to get screwed. If one model dies in your army you will most likely get massacred or lose to a minor victory if you're lucky.

Regarding Wolves vs. BT:
BT scores its maximum of 6 points of CR (1 wound + 5 overkill)
Wolves do nothing in return, but the 6 remaining wolves outnumber the BT (US 12 vs. US 5)
Wolves lose combat by 5 points = 1 wolf lives, so yes, it works;)

As for protection on the general:
I can't really see the link between miscasts and protecting the general, I'm sure as hell not going to cast anything except IoN if he's on 1 wound anyway:D
I was (and maybe still am) considering giving him Flayed Hauberk instead of Biting Blade and Power Stone, but I'm not really sure if it's worth it. I think/hope/pray that it will be possible to keep him away from trouble, since he can march 18" and doesn't need LoS to cast stuff.

EvC
29-09-2008, 22:29
Lol, I do love it when people try and look smart and just end up looking stupid instead. The Dragon Trap works like a charm, I always bring 7 Dire Wolves with a champion in my armies :)

You should be able to keep your general safe, but it may be difficult with no massive Grave Guard unit to bunker behind.

VC Doke
29-09-2008, 22:51
[QUOTE=Gokamok;2972490]Regarding Wolves vs. BT:
BT scores its maximum of 6 points of CR (1 wound + 5 overkill)
Wolves do nothing in return, but the 6 remaining wolves outnumber the BT (US 12 vs. US 5)
Wolves lose combat by 5 points = 1 wolf lives, so yes, it works;)

As for protection on the general:
I can't really see the link between miscasts and protecting the general, I'm sure as hell not going to cast anything except IoN if he's on 1 wound anyway:D
I was (and maybe still am) considering giving him Flayed Hauberk instead of Biting Blade and Power Stone, but I'm not really sure if it's worth it. I think/hope/pray that it will be possible to keep him away from trouble, since he can march 18" and doesn't need LoS to cast stuff.[/QUOTE

I apologize, I see now that it listed 6 wolves + 1 doom wolf.

It would be well worth investing 25+ to protect your 400+ model. Its insurance that you hope you never need, but should buy.

Gokamok
29-09-2008, 23:06
You should be able to keep your general safe, but it may be difficult with no massive Grave Guard unit to bunker behind.

If I include Grave Guard, it would either be at the cost of the Wraiths or the Black Knights. I'm a bit worried that I'll lose too much mobility by doing so, and it also means I'll have more models to paint on a rather tight schedule:cries:
However, going for 18-20ish Grave Guard would be an option, but I'm not much into this "Drakenhof Banner hype" that a lot of people seem to have going these days.

Gokamok
29-09-2008, 23:13
I apologize, I see now that it listed 6 wolves + 1 doom wolf.

It would be well worth investing 25+ to protect your 400+ model. Its insurance that you hope you never need, but should buy.

I was wondering how to make it as clear as at all possible that the unit was 7 models total, but seems I failed:D

I would really like to grab some kind of armour for the Lord, if nothing else then just to make me feel better. The problem is that the Power Stone is the only trick I have up my sleeve when it comes to magic, and getting that crucial Vanhels cast when my opponent thinks I'm out of PD could very well decide the game. Of course, losing my general could also quite likely decide the game:eek:

Justin&theOldOnes
30-09-2008, 04:17
whoa whoa, isn't outnumber calculated after everyone has attacked? seems to me like you would need 9 dire wolves for this trick to work. After your dire wolf has died, you've lost combat by 7 (1+5 from the challenge and 1 for outnumber) and thus 7 wolves will crumble (unless they're within range of your BSB). It is a good trick though, just might cost you a bit more than you thought.

Gharof von Carstein
30-09-2008, 09:47
hes the one doing the outnumbering. so he loses combat by 5, there are 6 wolves left 1 remains, how hard is the math here people? :P 5 dire wolves = 2 US each thus 10 vs the dragons 5. clear outnumber. the dragon is challenged and must accept, assume he scores the max overkill and so he gets, 6 wounds caused. but due to the outnumber he only wins combat by 5.

and thats how the cookie crumbles. next turn the wolf unit is again IoNd to health (hopefully one or two good rolls) if even necessary, probably theyll be replaced by a raised dead zombie unit that will tarpit that dragon till the end of the game. gg dragon, you sucked. :P

VC Doke
30-09-2008, 10:28
and thats how the cookie crumbles. next turn the wolf unit is again IoNd to health (hopefully one or two good rolls) if even necessary, probably theyll be replaced by a raised dead zombie unit that will tarpit that dragon till the end of the game. gg dragon, you sucked. :P

Now this is one rule I'm sure of: Using IoN will only get you one wolf on each casting. They're cavalry. It'll keep the Dragon/Monster out for one turn, that is all. OH, and its US is the monster's wounds +1 for the rider.

Be Afraid
30-09-2008, 10:52
i like it alot, it similar too my list, which will be testing its mettle at the heat this weekend.

Mine has ghouls as opposed too skellies, but its down too preferance, and as you said, availability.

The two points i'd personally be worried about is dispel and lord's proection. I'm not sure if you;ve played a 'tzeench daemon army of doom' but the magic is truly staggering, it was more than my 7 dice, 2 balefires, +1 too dispel and 1 scroll could handle. Also, with lord, while it is potentially a huge risk, i would consider crown of damned on lord.

Overal it seems like a solid list, and should do well.

Gokamok
30-09-2008, 11:49
i like it alot, it similar too my list, which will be testing its mettle at the heat this weekend.

Mine has ghouls as opposed too skellies, but its down too preferance, and as you said, availability.

The two points i'd personally be worried about is dispel and lord's proection. I'm not sure if you;ve played a 'tzeench daemon army of doom' but the magic is truly staggering, it was more than my 7 dice, 2 balefires, +1 too dispel and 1 scroll could handle. Also, with lord, while it is potentially a huge risk, i would consider crown of damned on lord.

Overal it seems like a solid list, and should do well.

I'm not going to take Crown of the Damned. I just don't like the risk of my general going stupid, since it can potentially be game ending.

My tactic against a Tzeentch gunline/flying circus is:

a) Pray I don't meet them.
b) If I meet them, pray they do a ton of miscasts.

I think the amount of tailoring that needs to be done to fight a Tzeentchian army will be a too big drawback against most other opponents, so I'll just stick to whining and praying for good luck against them:D

EvC
30-09-2008, 15:01
Hehe, good plan. As Be Afraid noted you can't really stop their magic in the first place so I wouldn't worry about it too much. Just make sure you make your Lord's unit HUGE from raisings so it can't be zapped down to nothingness in one turn!

Scooner
30-09-2008, 20:54
i have flayed hauberk on my lord and i do like it and does work well. he's in a unit of grave guard for protection which i like. i myself is going to the uk GT second round so any of you guys going too let me know...

hopefully my 3 carts are going to help with the enemy magic!!!

Gokamok
30-09-2008, 22:00
i have flayed hauberk on my lord and i do like it and does work well. he's in a unit of grave guard for protection which i like. i myself is going to the uk GT second round so any of you guys going too let me know...

hopefully my 3 carts are going to help with the enemy magic!!!

I'll see you at the finals then, going to heat 3 myself:D

Could you try posting your list, or maybe PM it to me? I'd really like to see your "3 carts o' DOOM" list;)

dude.sweet101@yahoo.co.uk
01-10-2008, 07:55
Isn't there a danger of boring your opponent to death in your second magic phase?

Q: If your opponent dies or is rendered unconcious during a game , do you win?

Seriously though, the 3 carts army is a response to this nasty vampire bunker nonesense and its dull as dish water to play and to play against. But Hell, its the GT, which has degenerated into "who's the biggest git contest?" over the last 10 years.

Who am I to complain, 3 years ago I took 4 cannon, 2 HB and Gelt- it was worth it to see the look on peoples faces.

I reckon there will be lots of Null stone toting HE Stardragon riders-oooh bad day at the office when that badboy lands.

"Quick Boris! Into ze woods!"

Gokamok
01-10-2008, 15:04
So, it seems a lot of people are in favor of going for Flayed Hauberk on the lord, even though it means giving up the Power Stone. Does anyone have any qualified opinions on this? Will my magic be too weak with only 10 PD and absolutely no tricks?

What about the issue of Wraiths+Banshee vs. 18 Grave Guard? I have a feeling that it's probably not worth running a strong infantry line with a list that's relatively low on magic, but has anyone had experience with how it works in practice?

Comments etc. are highly appreciated:)

jigplums
01-10-2008, 22:45
I think flayed hauberk and "upgrading" the bsb to a vamp could help. That way you have extra pd, dd and protection on your lord. Wraiths i can't see many lists not being able to deal with such a small unit tbh. And those that dont, would a blackcoach or 2nd vargulf be much worse?