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Justin&theOldOnes
29-09-2008, 21:45
O wise ones,

1) The following situation happened to me in recent game:

AAAAAS
TTTTTS
TTTTTS
TTTTVC
TTTTVS
AAAAAS

The above represents 6 Saurus warriors ("S") including a champ ("C") engaged with the flank of a Temple Guard unit ("T") with a mounted Scar-Veteran in it, in the corner ("V").

Basically my opponent issued a challenge with the Scar-Vet, and my Champ accepted. However, he then claimed that the two other Saurus in BTB with his Scar-Vet could not attack for that round, as they were only in BTB with the Scar-Vet. I replied that it says in the rulebook (or somewhere) to think of a challenge as an abstraction that theoretically takes place "outside" of the combat. I thought he was being cheap. Who was right?

2) Also, if a DoC Herald refuses a challenge and hides in the back of a unit in a close combat, does he still confer his Locus bonuses to the unit? The same opponent of mine claims the wording as written says this, but I think it goes against the spirit of refusing a challenge (refusing a challenge should come with a major penalty as in all other scenarios, like a BSB refusing and the unit loses his +1 CR bonus). Is this nevertheless the correct interpretation? Enlighten me. :angel:

Justin

narrativium
29-09-2008, 22:44
1) I think your opponent is right. When the challenge is accepted, you move the involved characters in the ranks so they are touching and can fight each other. They can't attack anyone except each other and no-one else can attack either character. The two Sauruses have no rank-and-file in base contact to hit.

2) Hmm. Iffy. If he was simply not in the engaged rank, then the rules are straightforward - the unit can't use his Leadership, he can't attack, use magic or magic items - but these bonuses are none of those things, and I'd say it's no different to a character with Magic Resistance in the second rank - the unit gets the bonus.

However, the rules for refusing a challenge say he loses all his advantages. It refers to the section on not being in the front rank, with the addition of not being able to fight. It doesn't say anything about removing advantages which now apply to the unit, which I would imagine include Magic Resistance and any spells already cast upon the unit or characters within it. Standard bearers are explicitly mentioned; these other traits aren't. The character would still have traits such as terror, which could prevent the unit being charged from other angles.

I think you have the spirit of it, but as it's written your opponent is right.

theunwantedbeing
29-09-2008, 22:53
1. The one who accepts the challenge is moved into contact with the one that issued the challenge.
So technically you could move him to the bottom edge of the unit so that only 1 saurus warrior would be incapable of attacking (as you arent allowed to attack anyone in a challenge).

2. He's still in the unit. So the bonus still applies. Same thing happens with WE character's in Eternal guard, the Eternal guard still gain the benefit even if the character refuses a challenge. It's because it's a special rule, they still lose any other benefits as normal though (so the unit cant use their leadership and such)

Lord Malorne
29-09-2008, 23:02
1)Page 77 top right. Says clearly enough models lose there attacks.

2)Same page, says loses all its advantages...read that as you will.


Best advice...READ THE BOOK!

Justin&theOldOnes
30-09-2008, 03:37
Is there anything to support that the Scar-Vet, or any mounted character in infantry, should/would/could turn like so in the unit?

AAAAAS
TTTTTS
TTTTTS
TTTTTC
TTTVVS
AAAAAS

Anyways, it's just frustrating when something feels against the spirit of the rules, and, yet the rules as written fully support it. Got to live with it I guess. :chrome:

Gazak Blacktoof
30-09-2008, 07:30
No the unit as a whole may turn if they win the combat but individual models always face the front of the unit. Models only turn if the whole unit turns ie the front of the unit moves.

narrativium
30-09-2008, 09:39
It's not against the spirit. The whole notion of challenges assumes some form of honourable conduct on the battlefield, and the two Sauruses who aren't fighting can't be removed as casualties and continue to make up the US5+ which get you a flank bonus and denies your opponent's ranks. Think of them as just scaring the horses.

Now, if you like, since the characters have to be slid next to each other in the ranks, you could move the character one place along (down, in your diagrams) and allow a fourth Saurus to get an attack, since he'd then be touching the corner of the rank-and-file cavalry. That's still allowed. The fifth Saurus still can't fight though.

Gazak Blacktoof
30-09-2008, 09:51
He can't move anywhere because they are already in contact. If they weren't in contact he could move (depending who challenged and who accepted) and positon himself tactically

Whitehorn
30-09-2008, 10:00
The mounted Vet only occupies 1 space, so at most 1 saurus might be blocked.

Gazak Blacktoof
30-09-2008, 10:04
How did you work that out? As you can see from the diagram the scar vet takes up 2 spaces in the flank of the unit and clearly prevents 2 of the flanking models from attacking if he's in a challenge with the champion 'C'.

Lord Malorne
30-09-2008, 10:25
Is there anything to support that the Scar-Vet, or any mounted character in infantry, should/would/could turn like so in the unit?

AAAAAS
TTTTTS
TTTTTS
TTTTTC
TTTVVS
AAAAAS

Anyways, it's just frustrating when something feels against the spirit of the rules, and, yet the rules as written fully support it. Got to live with it I guess. :chrome:

Thats turing the unit, you cannot do that, the unit is say five models by two, so when it is turned it will be two models by five, you turn models not the unit.

narrativium
30-09-2008, 11:35
I think the Vs represent one mounted model in a unit of T infantry - so if the unit turned, that would be a legal formation (effectively five ranks, four across). If the Ts were cavalry, though, you'd be right.

Lord Malorne
30-09-2008, 11:48
Woops, brain fart.

But characters have to be in the first rank IIRC, unless it is a character HEAVY unit.

Gazak Blacktoof
30-09-2008, 11:48
Yes, the T's represent temple guard- infantry.

Lord Dan
01-10-2008, 05:21
It's not against the spirit. The whole notion of challenges assumes some form of honourable conduct on the battlefield, and the two Sauruses who aren't fighting can't be removed as casualties...

Though I whole-heartedly agree with you on the notion of challenges being in the spirit of the game, I do have one technical point, which is that the saurus could be killed.

Saurus are RAF units, and as a result are removed if the number of wounds caused by opposing side exceed the number of models in base-to-base contact with the attacking models.

DeathlessDraich
01-10-2008, 10:18
1) There are other basic questions to be resolved first before this question can be answered.
A) Players will have to decide on the model-formation legality - i.e. if a single model can become 2!
B) If the answer to (A) is, No, then exactly what space or position does the cavalry model occupy.

My position on the oversized-base model in a unit, has always been that the oversized model can only be 1 model for the purposes of shooting randomisation, CR etc.

N.B. a legal 5-wide formation requires 5 models in *every* rank excluding the back rank

It therefore makes sense (and is fair) in this case to regard the actual formation of the Temple Guard as: (following the infamous T10 model)
.........S
..TTTTS
TTTTTS
TTTTTS
TTTTVS
.......VC

When the Saurus champion and Scar veteran are moved to be opposite each other (N.B. this is *not* mandatory if it is too difficult to achieve according to the FAQ), at least one of the Saurus at the bottom is displaced upwards and may fight.

Even if the original position of the mounted Scar Vet is maintained, an additional Saurus could be brought into combat using this:

.........S
TTTTTS
TTTTTS
TTTTVS
TTTTVC
.........S

BEEGfrog
02-10-2008, 13:27
1) Letter of the law says Saurus do not get to fight, spirit of the law says that one Saurus would get to fight
.........S
TTTTTS
TTTTTS
TTTTTS
TTTVVC
.........S

The 'vet would be allowed to face his challenger and the space in the ranks filled in to maintain equal ranks as required. The flanker would not get the attack due to not being in contact with a valid target.

2) The challenge rule is clear all bonuses are lost, he has lost the favour of the gods as well as his unit.

3) Following turn is as the diagram above, figures turn in place; heros, standard bearers, musicians and champions make their way to the new front rank; and the unit then dresses its ranks to have equal numbers in all but the rear rank.