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Triszin The Wrath God
30-09-2008, 02:45
why do i keep seeing people paint salamanders skin brown, by black they mean black. heres and example enlarge the green LS pick
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1020022&prodId=prod1560024

seeing people paint their skin brown, almost makes me want to start a slamaders army and paint there skins black..

arghhh, amm i just crazy? or is this anoying anyone else?

Takitron
30-09-2008, 02:47
you are just crazy. people paint their whatever how the want.

Templar Ben
30-09-2008, 03:11
I concur. You are just crazy.

Hellebore
30-09-2008, 03:18
Because before the 5th edition of the rules and the upcoming Salamander's novel, they WERE 'brown' as in having high levels of melanin in their skin.

Now apparently they have coal black skin and red eyes.

Hellebore

Wolfblade670
30-09-2008, 04:04
Well in the original RT era fluff they had jet black skin and red eyes. However there was a confusion regarding the term "black" back during the writing of Codex: Armageddon, and as scuh they were assumed by the modeling team to mean African instead of actual black. Apparently Rick Priestly wanted to correct this once and for all, hence the supposed fluff retcon, which is really just going back to the original fluff anyway.

folnjir
30-09-2008, 05:13
Well in the original RT era fluff they had jet black skin and red eyes. However there was a confusion regarding the term "black" back during the writing of Codex: Armageddon, and as scuh they were assumed by the modeling team to mean African instead of actual black. Apparently Rick Priestly wanted to correct this once and for all, hence the supposed fluff retcon, which is really just going back to the original fluff anyway.

And yet in the photos of Salamanders in Codex: Armageddon I seem to remember the actual models themselves they had white skin.

BriareosDX
30-09-2008, 07:05
The problem for me, as an african-american WH40K player, is that they took the one group of black space marines, and turned them into the group of black-face space marines. Or, I suppose Drow Cosplayers if you're feeling generous. (Do some google image searches. It's really... something)

Now, I recognize that really, the ethnicities of a million worlds 40,000 years in the future should bear no similarity to those of our current world. And I also know that Marine augmentations mean that their skin tones are merely a matter of convenience. Heck, I'm surprised they don't default to a camoflage skin tone. But all that said, Couldn't they leave us with one chapter? It's not like the future is short on pasty white guys.

In the end, of course, it's your decision to paint your figures the way you want, and other people can paint their minis the way they want. That's one of the joys of the hobby.

madd0ct0r
30-09-2008, 08:16
well there's your new chapter master:

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://farm1.static.flickr.com/238/525932680_33fbaf5f68.jpg%3Fv%3D0&imgrefurl=http://www.flickr.com/photos/bobaferret/525932680/in/set-72157600299473182/&h=500&w=421&sz=91&hl=en&start=107&usg=__53ZTI26RjOxl_qJap5YwaG3UvEM=&tbnid=A00BF0xN9SO6JM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=109&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwarcaster%26start%3D90%26gbv%3D2%26nd sp%3D18%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN


(Not my work)

MvS
30-09-2008, 08:24
It's not like the future is short on pasty white guys.
:D

If I had any cigars to hand out you'd get the first one for that comment.

Marvellous. :) ;)

Phoenix Blaze
30-09-2008, 08:29
well there's your new chapter master:

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://farm1.static.flickr.com/238/525932680_33fbaf5f68.jpg%3Fv%3D0&imgrefurl=http://www.flickr.com/photos/bobaferret/525932680/in/set-72157600299473182/&h=500&w=421&sz=91&hl=en&start=107&usg=__53ZTI26RjOxl_qJap5YwaG3UvEM=&tbnid=A00BF0xN9SO6JM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=109&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwarcaster%26start%3D90%26gbv%3D2%26nd sp%3D18%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN


(Not my work)


Um.......that looks like Warmachine to me....


Okay, so the Salamanders are supposed to have jet black skin? surely Vulkan would be the same? And why has this never been mentioned? Or why has he not been added to the list of Primarchs who should've been hacked apart on sight for being mutated?

Regardless of what fluff is or was, I think it's silly to have them with jet black skin and red eyes. If they were chaos, then sure, it'd work, but not for puritants. Being black, as in central african-black, makes so much more sense, as it's taken to be the case as that was the skin tone of Vulkan, and the Astartes made from his DNA would slowly change to fit. It's the same for those of the Raven Guard with the pale skin and black hair.

Apologist
30-09-2008, 08:40
As BriareosDX notes, 'Marine augmentations mean that their skin tones are merely a matter of convenience'; but presumably Space Marines maintain their birth skintones as a sort of 'default'.

From the limited material we have, it's fairly likely that the twenty original legions were diverse in colouring owing both to their planet of origin and the Primarch's geneseed: Horus Rising notes that certain Astartes' DNA was overwritten to an extent by the Primarch's, causing the marine to look eerily similar to the Primarch.

It is notable that the Raven Guard, the Night Lords and the Salamanders are said to have anomalies in their melanchrome organ, causing extreme colouring: pure white in the case of the Raven Guard, pure white with black eyes for the Night Lords, and pure black and red eyes for the Salamanders.

This is not to say that the marines 'pre-implant' are not ethnically diverse (in fact, that's extremely unlikely); but rather they begin to take on aspects of the Primarchs.

From the descriptions we have, Alpharius, Omegon and Magnus the Red are noted as having 'copper-coloured skin'; Lorgar has 'gold skin'; while Corax and Konrad Curze have 'almost white' skin. Depictions of the Primarchs tend to show the majority as white, with the exception of Jaghati Khan. Other descriptions make note of details (Dorn's white hair, for example) or allude to details (Perturabo being 'dark', though this is as likely to refer to his temperament as his skin tone)... in short, the colourings of the Primarchs don't seem to be remotely homogenous, which means the marines they 'sire' will have similar diversity.

It's also worth noting that the descriptions we have could either be taken in poetic terms – so Lorgar's gold skin is that of a richly tanned arab, Magnus' copper skin is that of a South American – or literally: Lorgar's skin is shiny gold, for example.

For the record, I prefer the poetic interpretation – that Guilliman has a meditarranean appearance, Rogal Dorn looked like a modern-day Scandinavian, Magnus looked like an ancient Egyptian etc. For the purposes of this discussion, I like to think that Vulkan had African features – and that that really has very little to do with the Salamander's malfunctioning melanchrome. If this interpretation is correct, it would be quite possible to mix the high fantasy coal-black skin with the more painterly African-black skin.

Of course, this post is merely idle musings. I like the idea of an Emperor using the best of mankind's diversity, and creating his Primarchs and Space Marines from every part of the planet in order to make even the most divergent planet they came across recognise some kind of kinship with the liberators.

This could lead to a really interesting discussion; so I hope it's taken in the correct light. :)

+++EDIT

Okay, so the Salamanders are supposed to have jet black skin? surely Vulkan would be the same? And why has this never been mentioned?[quote]

In the original WD articles on the Salamanders, it was stated that Salamander banners appeared completely black because the marines saw in infra-vision rather than the visible spectrum. I believe that there were some other rather cryptic hints along those lines – but that since the Salamanders rather fell from grace (having their cool scheme nicked by the previously black Dark Angels, for one! :p), the idea was never developed.

Because I really like the idea of the most humanitarian Chapter of marines having coal-black skin and burning red eyes (and thus appearing infernal and evil), I'd be sorry to see them drop this idea. However, I also think that it's a shame that this has overshadowed the only Chapter that's generally seen as ethnically black – hence my explanation above for having both at once. :)

[quote]Or why has he not been added to the list of Primarchs who should've been hacked apart on sight for being mutated?
Well, they were all mutated to some degree. Sanguinius had wings, Magnus the Red had one eye and was toweringly vast...

Phoenix Blaze
30-09-2008, 09:04
What about the Johnson, Fulgrim, Dorn, Corax, Konrad, Guilliman, Horus, Jaghatai, Perturabo, Ferrus....need I go on?


More than anything, it's the red eyes that I have an issue with. The jet-black skin, can accept over time, eve if it does have to be rationalised by saying it's a mix of gene-seed and the humans being having darker skin. I used to work with a guy who had ridiculously dark skin, like, near enough just a shade lighter than jet black. Combine this with the marine's ability to alter their skin tone to a degree and the Primarch's DNA, I can see it happening.

But the red eyes? Hells no.

heinrichvoncarstein
30-09-2008, 09:04
The reason for the salamanders looking like the way they do is beacuse of several things...
Firtsly: They came from african stock from earth
2nd: The radiation the suns gives off makes their skin look darker
3rd: The gene-seedturns them completely black with red eyes

And yes, Vulkan was also jet-black

Apologist
30-09-2008, 10:52
What about the Johnson, Fulgrim, Dorn, Corax, Konrad, Guilliman, Horus, Jaghatai, Perturabo, Ferrus....need I go on?

Not really sure what this is in reference to... Mutation, or skin colour?


More than anything, it's the red eyes that I have an issue with. The jet-black skin, can accept over time, [snip]
But the red eyes? Hells no.
If you want to rationalise it, then it's as simple as saying that the sclera of the eye becomes altered as a result of the geneseed malfunction; such that the blood vessels are far more prominent, or the sclera itself becomes depigmented – as in albinism:

The eyes occasionally appear red due to the underlying retinal blood vessels showing through where there is not enough pigment to cover them. In humans this is rarely the case, as a human eye is quite large and thus produces enough pigment to lend opacity to the eye. However, there are cases in which the eyes of an albinistic person appear red or purple, depending on the amount of pigment present.

That's explanation's an exact opposite of the Night Lords' depigmented skin, superpigmented eyes.

Treadhead_1st
30-09-2008, 10:58
Right, dunno if this has been mentioned - bits of it has, but I thought I'd give a full snippet of the fluff.

In the RT days, the Salamanders had jet black sking and burning red eyes - supposedly they could see in Infra-Red, and that's why the banners were all identical - the squad markings etc were all done in the IR spectrum.

Codex Armageddon got launched, explaining how the inhabitants of Nocturne were originally from Afro-Caribbean stock of Terra.

Nocturne itself has high [light] radiation - but it's not mentioned wether the inhabitants are coal-black or afro-caribbean still. It's suggested (by the next bit) that they're still afro-caribbean.

Vulkan was dumped on Nocturne when the Chaos Pwoers scattered the infantile Primarchs. Through entering the highly-radioactive atmopshere his skin was burnt to a blue/black tone. As in physical damage (which, being an infant, I imagine his systems couldn't handle/repair).

This was then taken by fans to mean that the entire chapter, recruited from the Afro-Caribbean stock, would be blue-black as they should be identical to the Primarch. Codex: Armageddon hinted at the opposite, as Vulkan was unique on Nocturne for being so badly burnt.

Now GW have gone back to the "all Salamanders are coal-black" route, and I do not know the justification for this. Especially since in the new Marine codex the Melanchrome (sp?) - the organ that controls skin tones - has been totally removed from the list of implants, so the Salamanders shouldn't follow their primarchs blue/black scarring - for there's no genetic imperative to do so - but instead be the same as the native stock (Afro-Caribbean).

So I'm gonna be keeping my Salamanders Afro-Caribbean "black" and not Coal Black, but I will give them the blood red eyes. While the 'Daemonic Appearance' for what is almost undoubtedly the most humanitarian chapter of the Astartes is an awesome oxymoron, I think the coal black skin looks daft on the miniatures. Unless the in-depth background of the chapter (yeah, like we'll see another Index Astartes or even Codex Armageddon style background piece) can come up with a very concievable reason that the Marines are different to the Native Stock and the same as their burnt Primarch.

If someone has a problem with it they can...I'm sure that's not allowed to be mentioned on a forum actually. To the OP: If it winds you up that much then...well, I don't know what to suggest. Perhaps a holiday? This is a hobby, people are free to paint their miniatures how they like. And though the Salamanders were originally coal black, they were forgotten in 2nd Ed, 3rd Ed made them Afro-Caribbean, 4th Ed. they were forgotten again and now with 5th Ed. there's a fluff retcon - not that it's been seen yet though. So for the majority of the time extansive background has been available to the Salamander players, the Afro-Caribbean look is "correct".

DapperAnarchist
30-09-2008, 13:09
I prefer the Afro-Caribbean salamanders... There is a heavy slant towards pasty white guys in the 41st millenium... The sort of slant you find in, say, Daíl Eireann (Irish parliament, for those not in the know). For example, the only not distinctively absolutely North European featured models in Inquisitor are those without faces - you could make a dark skinned model from the Arco-Flagellant. If I had any modelling ability, I'd have a black Inquisitor... if only because I think you can get away with a much more striking colour scheme on a dark skinned model.

And where did the Native American stuff in Dark Angels go? All of a sudden its like Northern Germany decided to decorate themselves with feathers... bah.

Phoenix Blaze
30-09-2008, 13:44
@ Apologist, my list of Primarch names was in relation to your statement that all Primarchs were mutated in some way. The ones mentioned, aswell as others I didn't were not mutated. Later Konrad was, but that's later, not originally.


With regards to the red eyes, does the read eye affect the entire eye or just the iris? I always thought it was just the iris, which would make sense if that's what the Salamanders' deal was, but it seems their entire eyeball is blood red.

Dominus_Serui
30-09-2008, 14:02
I think another reason that people hold against painting Salamanders jet-black, is because its a really really awful color to paint skin with, and impossible to get to look nice.

Leftenant Gashrog
30-09-2008, 14:04
In the RT days, the Salamanders had jet black sking and burning red eyes - supposedly they could see in Infra-Red, and that's why the banners were all identical - the squad markings etc were all done in the IR spectrum.


Do you happen to have a source for that? I'm pretty sure I've read the bit about them seeing into the IR and having black banners, but I don't recall ever coming across any mention of them having black skin and burning eyes. (the beakie era Space Marine Paint Guide had a white skinned Salamander on the cover and a dark brown skinned one inside)

Argastes
30-09-2008, 14:47
Irrespective of the fluff justification for the coal-black skin, I think it looks like utter crap on the models. It looks like the painter forgot to paint the model's skin and left the skin areas with nothing but the undercoat on them. By contrast, I always thought that the natural dark skin tones on the 3rd Edition Salamanders looked very good. It made a pleasing contrast with their armor's color scheme, and as others have said, it was nice to see some diversity in the setting. I have no plans to paint any Salamanders at the moment, but if I ever do, I'll damn sure be giving them natural dark skin tones and not that terrible-looking pure black.

CitizenNick
30-09-2008, 15:02
Or, I suppose Drow Cosplayers if you're feeling generous. (Do some google image searches. It's really... something)


Ugh! I just did that. I think you got it right. It's really... I just can't put my finger on it... something.

Anyway, I think the problem with this is that during Codex: Armageddon, it looked like GW was making an effort to show the true diversity of the human race.

Now it's like, "Oops, no! Sorry, we meant they were mutants."

While I can appreciate the step back to RT days, it comes off a little harsh when looking at it from the present. It's like every space marine is white/ european looking, except the ones that are mutants.

Don't get me wrong, I am in no way accusing GW of racism. I'm just saying the perception of the retcon (or is it re-con?) can come off that way.

However, taking it on it's face, I think the idea of loyalist space marines with coal black skin and red eyes is actaully kinda cool.

PondaNagura
30-09-2008, 15:11
well marines pigmentation can change in respect to both geneseed implementation and due to the melanochromic organ, which will enable a marine the change his pigmentation depending upon his environment.
as for the jetblack-faced model it looks like either a lazy painter forgot to paint the face, doesn't know how to paint skin pigmentation, or is on a budget...which doesn't make sense with the detail of the rest of the LS model.

Apologist
30-09-2008, 15:18
@ Apologist, my list of Primarch names was in relation to your statement that all Primarchs were mutated in some way. The ones mentioned, aswell as others I didn't were not mutated. Later Konrad was, but that's later, not originally.

Ah, fair do's. I'd argue a significant proportion of the Primarchs showed extreme mutation, while almost all showed some level of divergence from the norm. Of course, that's the 'norm' in relation to other Primarchs, so we're already ignoring their size, resilience, strength etc.

Here's a list of significant divergences, from what I'd consider the most obvious mutations to the relatively innocuous:

Magnus – one eye, grotesque size, psyker
Sanguinius – Wings, precognitive
Konrad Curze – flavistic, lacking iris, psyker, precognitive
Lorgar – precognitive, golden skin
Ferrus Manus – silver, irisless eyes*
Leman Russ – enlarged fangs, extremely hairy
Corax – flavistic

There's also the suggestion that all the Primarchs were psykers to some degree – their creation being 'infused with the power of the warp'; Angron and Sanguinius' possible telepathic communication... etc. It might be considered that Mortarion's build was a mutation – it was certainly different enough from the other Primarchs to warrant a mention.

...and that's merely a list of canonical ones – we're told that 'the primarchs demonstrated incredible powers, such as flight and invisibility' – and who's to say that the Primarchs that haven't been explored in depth (Jaghati Khan, Roboute Guilliman, Perturabo et al.) don't have slight (or indeed great) mutations?

I don't intend to start an argument over this: I just wanted to demonstrate that the Primarchs were pretty varied in the first place: who's to say where the Emperor's intentions stop and mutations begin?

Back on topic, I don't think the red eyes of the Salamanders has been described beyond a hint, so I think there's ample room for interpretation that it's the iris, or the sclera, rather than full-on glowing red eyes. Of course, even if it is the entire eye, that doesn't seem to blind Astartes as might be expected: all Night Lords drawn from Nostromo (which presumably made up a significant portion of the legion) lack irises completely, and yet operate perfectly capably.

+++
*Possibly a result of the Wyrm he drowned.

ChaosBeast
30-09-2008, 15:36
i think it looks stupid with black skin. if i do sallies they would definiely be a dark brown. i think it looks so bad because cha0s black is from a blue base so it looks wrong.

heinrichvoncarstein
30-09-2008, 22:14
How did mortarion look, from what i've read, he seems just like any other primarch in build (except magnus)

DapperAnarchist
30-09-2008, 22:32
he was pale and skeletal, a real Death God figure... Not mutated though, just poisoned as a child.

JOBusse
30-09-2008, 22:58
Irrespective of the fluff justification for the coal-black skin, I think it looks like utter crap on the models. It looks like the painter forgot to paint the model's skin and left the skin areas with nothing but the undercoat on them.
That was my thought when I saw the pic...that the painter just didn't paint the flesh at all. It just looked incomplete.

On a side note, The melanchrome organ actually made me feel good about painting my Imperial Fists and black men. I originally chose to do so because of how the darker flesh looked against the yellow armor, but it was nice to have justification if anyone ever brought it up.

starlight
30-09-2008, 23:06
arghhh, amm i just crazy? or is this anoying anyone else?

Well.....


you are just crazy. people paint their whatever how the want.


I concur. You are just crazy.

That about sums it up for me.


I think another reason that people hold against painting Salamanders jet-black, is because its a really really awful color to paint skin with, and impossible to get to look nice.


Irrespective of the fluff justification for the coal-black skin, I think it looks like utter crap on the models.


i think it looks stupid with black skin.


Pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter Mr. Priestly. If it was so important to you, I'd have hoped that you would have raised your hand some time between Rogue Trader and now...:( Personally I like the diversity and wouldn't paint my models all the same way *regardless* of the way the book said.:p

That said, all my Marines wear their helmets because they aren't *stupid*:rolleyes: so you can't tell anyways.:p

Lord Inquisitor
30-09-2008, 23:14
But all that said, Couldn't they leave us with one chapter? It's not like the future is short on pasty white guys.
If it makes you feel better, the Mortifactors are noted as having very dark skin (and dreadlocks!)... That said, with Artemis as their poster-boy, there's something of a discrepancy there.

I'm okay with the black skin/red eyes thing, oddly enough. The Salamanders are perhaps the most human of any Chapter, maintaining connections with their families and living amongst their people. I actually quite like the idea that such a humane Chapter would look somewhat diabolical with red eyes. [edit: which was a point well made way back on page one :rolleyes:]

From a fluff standpoint, a mutation in the melanochrome organ would explain it - Astartes skin is meant to be able to darken dramatically in response to radiation anyway. A mutation - presumably a gain-of-function mutation, permanently darkening the skin, the opposite of the loss of melanin the Raven Guard exhibit - in their melanochrome could very reasonably explain this quirk. (As for the red eyes, there are two types of melanin, and pheomelanin pigment is red - a buildup of this in the iris would be a fairly convincing explanation, unless the eyes actually glow).

Treadhead_1st
30-09-2008, 23:20
The melanchrome would explain it...but GW have chucked that organ in the bin with the new dex.

The new "creation of a Space Marine" is 1 organ less than the old one...anyone want to hazard a guess which one?

That's right, the melanchrome.


Oh, and the Salamanders are 'humanitarian' not just for living among the populace (some UM do as well, I believe) but because they care about the citizens they protect - such as on Armageddon, they dedicated themselves to the 'unglorious' role of protecting the refugee columns - the other chapters thought the humans worthless/not enough glory to be had, but the Sallies felt that it was thier duty to protect the citizens of the Imperium. Earned them the thanks of millions of refugees and Imperial Guard/PDF regiments. Dante himself bowed to Tu'Shan due to the Salamanders accepting this role (and being generally bad*** in battle too).

Lord Inquisitor
30-09-2008, 23:27
Really? :wtf:

Wonder why they did that. Bizarre. A complete overhaul of SM physiology would be one thing, but just dropping an organ seems rather odd.

samiens
30-09-2008, 23:31
I'm with the 'it looks daft camp' Having said that I also don't like the fact that all the marines of a chapter supposedly have a similar skin tone- so I've got a mix of colours and I'm perfectly happy. The moral- do waht you want and enjoy it and don't lambast people unless they do something completely ridiculous

Gdolkin
30-09-2008, 23:36
What does 'flavistic' mean, Apologist?

Triszin The Wrath God
30-09-2008, 23:47
on a side note, since they still live wwith their families and people, do they have children? if so does any of there traits pass down?

warsmithferrousmaximus
30-09-2008, 23:51
i must admit the idea of a loyal chapter having blood red eyes seems wrong, however the idea that the blood vessels are over pronounced makes it sound like the chapter has a permenant hang over!!

on the note of mutation, everyone seems to have forgotten sanguinius!!
i know the others looked strange, especially magnus , but sanguinius had wings for gods sake!!! i'm amazed he wasnt beaten to death on sight!!

as far as i can remember until the traitor primarchs changed to daemon princes sanguinius was the only one with such a "gift" . made him look pretty awesome though

Applesauceninja
01-10-2008, 01:50
i always make spacemarines of different races no matter the chapter...some of my fists are have "brown skin" and some of my salamanders are white
it really doesnt matter if you ask me

kylsnik ironhead
01-10-2008, 03:49
i must admit the idea of a loyal chapter having blood red eyes seems wrong, however the idea that the blood vessels are over pronounced makes it sound like the chapter has a permenant hang over!!

on the note of mutation, everyone seems to have forgotten sanguinius!!
i know the others looked strange, especially magnus , but sanguinius had wings for gods sake!!! i'm amazed he wasnt beaten to death on sight!!

as far as i can remember until the traitor primarchs changed to daemon princes sanguinius was the only one with such a "gift" . made him look pretty awesome though


I thought Space Wolves were the drunks:p

RedSarge
01-10-2008, 04:41
Wow, just wow. This is some stupidness right here... jet black skin? Red eyes?
So some kid will prime his marines, take green paint to the armor and then grab a toothpick and dip it in blood red paint to make eyes. (no doubt huge honking bulging red eyes.)

I think I prefer to have a heterogeneous population within the Imperium.
Planets of all white, all black ect are a really dumb segregated and old idea.

Will you ever see a black space wolf? Even though 'Quinton "Rampage" Jackson ' would make a perfect Blood Claw, a definite no.

Oh, well.

Argastes
01-10-2008, 05:41
Wow, just wow. This is some stupidness right here... jet black skin? Red eyes?
So some kid will prime his marines, take green paint to the armor and then grab a toothpick and dip it in blood red paint to make eyes. (no doubt huge honking bulging red eyes.)

I think I prefer to have a heterogeneous population within the Imperium.
Planets of all white, all black ect are a really dumb segregated and old idea.

Even though I agree with you about how crappy the black skin/red eyes thing looks, I think you have kind of missed the point. There's been nothing, either in this thread or in GW's background material, to indicate that the population of the Imperium isn't heterogeneous, or that any planets are "segregated" and have all-white or all-black populations. Where did you get that from? The black skin is something that, according to the latest fluff, appears in the Salamanders as a result of peculiarities in their gene seed. It's not associated with the population of any particular planet, and it definitely does not mean that the Imperium and it's planets don't have diverse populations. You seem to be reacting to something that no-one has actually said.

RedSarge
01-10-2008, 06:25
Argastes: If you take a good look at 40k fluff there does appear to be some planets with a fixed type of person inhabiting them.
(Nocturne with its Afro-Caribbean populace for example.)

But having GW tell me that "oh, Mortifactors have dreadlocks and dark skin too!", go play them for that aspect. Gives the impression that there are groups/populaces that are of one type aka homogenous.

Phoenix Blaze
01-10-2008, 08:31
Another example of a planet with a world wide look is Fenris. Being so backwards, isolated, and having a planet wide climate, nearly everyone will look scandinavian in some way.

Actually, planet wide climates are a big reason for a planet wide look.

Lungboy
01-10-2008, 11:09
I'm currently trying to persuade a friend to make his He'stan conversion with a 'Fro, so i'm all for them staying as they have been for a couple of editions now. I have zero problem with black skinned, red eyed marines though in a universe like the 40K one.

RexTalon
01-10-2008, 15:39
When I do my Sallies they'll have brown skin. Fluff be damned.

Black skin looks like crap on a model.

Lord Inquisitor
01-10-2008, 15:50
The current White Dwarf has some fluff on the salimanders (probably ripped out of the new Codex), saying that their jet-black skin and coal-red eyes are due to their "unique genetics" and the unnaturally high radiation of their home planet. Bloody sounds like a melanochrome mutation to me!

Argastes
01-10-2008, 16:27
Argastes: If you take a good look at 40k fluff there does appear to be some planets with a fixed type of person inhabiting them.
(Nocturne with its Afro-Caribbean populace for example.)

Yeeaaahhhhhh.... could someone please cite the source for this claim that Nocturne's populace descends from Afro-Caribbean stock? Earlier in this thread, someone said it was stated in Codex Armageddon. But I own Codex Armageddon, and I looked through it carefully, and there was no such statement in the book. I am fairly skeptical about this claim, because it is EXTREMELY rare for 40K fluff to make any reference to groups, places, people, or anything else from "real life" or the present day. So I would be quite shocked if they stated that a certain group of humans are descended from the populations of real-life locations (the Caribbean Sea region, and the continent of Africa, are both long-gone in 40K and are probably not even hinted at in the most ancient legends).


But having GW tell me that "oh, Mortifactors have dreadlocks and dark skin too!", go play them for that aspect. Gives the impression that there are groups/populaces that are of one type aka homogenous.

I don't think so. Mortifactors are Space Marines, whose skin tone does not necessarily reflect the ethnic makeup of the group(s) from which they are recruited. It is entirely plausible that their uniformly dark skin tone comes from some peculiarity in their geneseed or the process used by their chapter to transform recruits into Marines. It does not indicate anything about any human populace anywhere in the Imperium. As for dreadlocks, that's just a hairstyle. Apparently wearing dreadlocks is a part of the Mortifactors cultural practices. Again, that certainly doesn't suggest anything about the ethnic makeup of any given human population or group.

All that said, however, I actually don't see what's so "dumb" and "old" about the idea of certain planets having populations with predominant skin tones or ethnic traits. Certainly as humans spread across the galaxy, at least some worlds were settled by colonists from specific parts of the world, rather than diverse multi-ethnic/multi-national groups. I think it's rather absurd to call that "dumb" and outdated, as if it was equivalent to racial segregation in some way!

And of course, even if some planets do have largely homogeneous populations, that doesn't mean that the Imperium as a whole isn't highly diverse and heterogeneous. It definitely is, so I didn't really understand why you were saying "I think I prefer to have a heterogeneous population within the Imperium." Nothing has ever suggested that the Imperium's population is anything but heterogeneous.

RedSarge
01-10-2008, 16:57
Argastes: The afro-caribbean thing was simply an assumption made by someone in this thread, and it is not that hard to believe.
Why? Because the Salamanders have been brown since codex Armageddon (apparently GW painting mistake) and since chapters recruit from the homeworld, one can easily put the two together.

I looked thru everything I have on the Salamanders short of graphic novels (there are none) and nowhere does it state the populace is anything but tough folks.

It is totally plausible that a group could splinter off in the early days of the Imperium and form there own colony. A religious group, brotherhood, secret society or whatever you can think of.

That is how one would get a homogenous population compared to a group of colonists doing the exact same thing.

The artwork and fluff "suggests" that the Imperiums populace is mostly european caucasian.
I did like it back in 2nd & 3rd Edition Wh40k when GW had some more diversity in there character art.
The old Space Crusade game was not just "white" marines versus "white" chaos marines, it had some diversity within the SM chapters.

As an Imperial Guard player I would also like to see some more diverse characters for my army. It is really odd to think that something as large as the Imperium has only a few non-europeans living on a few choice worlds.
Or that all Imperial Guard are "caucasian" unless they live on Tallarn.

GW fluff doesn't "say" this! The ART does and the Codex heroes.
It is sort of like asking someone who plays Wh40k to tell you the name of an Arabic hero in the Imperial Guard, they're gonna say Al' Rahim. (if they even know who he is)
Because he really is the only non-caucasian character for Imperial Guard. (SM have a lot)
He's the "Alladin" of warhammer 40k, I don't know if you will understand what I mean by that.

Argastes
01-10-2008, 19:35
Argastes: The afro-caribbean thing was simply an assumption made by someone in this thread, and it is not that hard to believe.
Why? Because the Salamanders have been brown since codex Armageddon (apparently GW painting mistake) and since chapters recruit from the homeworld, one can easily put the two together.

But Salamanders didn't all have brown skin even back in the days before GW changed the fluff to give them all jet-black skin. They had a mix; some were brown-skinned, some were fair-skinned. I have my copy of Codex Armageddon sitting right here next to me on my desk, and as I look through it, I see Salamanders painted with both Caucasian and darker skin tones. So putting two and two together tells you that Nocturne has an ethnically diverse population, not that Nocturne has an Afro-Caribbean population.

Anyhow, even assuming it were true that Nocturne's populace is meant to be exclusively Afro-Caribbean, I wasn't saying I find it hard to believe that GW would include such a world in their setting, I was saying that I find it hard to believe that GW would explicitly *tell us* that they are "descended from Afro-Caribbean stock", because as I said, 40K fluff practically never references present-day real life. If the people of Nocturne really were meant to be descended from Afro-Caribbean peoples, then GW would certainly imply it by showing them to be all dark-skinned, but they wouldn't actually say it; they wouldn't use the phrase "Afro-Caribbean". And I got the impression that someone was claiming that GW actually HAD outright said that, which is what I was expressing skepticism about.


I looked thru everything I have on the Salamanders short of graphic novels (there are none) and nowhere does it state the populace is anything but tough folks.

No question about it (this is probably true of the inhabitants of every world that Marines recruit from), but what does it have to do with their "race"?


It is totally plausible that a group could splinter off in the early days of the Imperium and form there own colony. A religious group, brotherhood, secret society or whatever you can think of.

That is how one would get a homogenous population compared to a group of colonists doing the exact same thing.

Yes, that is another good example of how it might happen. Again, I see nothing to suggest that the Imperium as a whole isn't diverse.


The artwork and fluff "suggests" that the Imperiums populace is mostly european caucasian.
I did like it back in 2nd & 3rd Edition Wh40k when GW had some more diversity in there character art.
The old Space Crusade game was not just "white" marines versus "white" chaos marines, it had some diversity within the SM chapters.

I kind of agree with you on the recent art, but what is there in the fluff to suggest anything about the racial makeup of the Imperium? It seems to me that the fluff has always suggested that the Imperium encompasses every bit of variation that humanity has to offer. If the art sometimes fails to live up to this, that is unfortunate, but I don't think it justifies assumptions that GW is trying to suggest racial homogeneity in their setting.


As an Imperial Guard player I would also like to see some more diverse characters for my army. It is really odd to think that something as large as the Imperium has only a few non-europeans living on a few choice worlds.
Or that all Imperial Guard are "caucasian" unless they live on Tallarn.

I always had the impression, thanks to GW art and models, that Imperial Guard regiments such as the Cadians and Catachans include plenty of dark-skinned fellows along with fair-skinned types. Like I said, I do agree that the most recent crop of artwork suggests Caucasian predominance (although doesn't the cover of the Cadian battleforce box show two Cadians in the foreground, one light-skinned and one darker-skinned?). But I guess I just have a hard time making the jump from there to "GW is trying to tell us that the future is all-white".


GW fluff doesn't "say" this! The ART does and the Codex heroes.
It is sort of like asking someone who plays Wh40k to tell you the name of an Arabic hero in the Imperial Guard, they're gonna say Al' Rahim. (if they even know who he is)
Because he really is the only non-caucasian character for Imperial Guard. (SM have a lot)
He's the "Alladin" of warhammer 40k, I don't know if you will understand what I mean by that.

I do understand what you mean, but at the same time, I would say that the artwork, and the way GW paints their models, has actually sometimes suggested that there is plenty of diversity in the IG. Arguably more so than in the Space Marines. Admittedly, the Special Character selection for IG seems to be all-white, but other than that, there is plenty to indicate the diversity of the IG. And where the artwork and painting does convey the impression of an all-white Guard, again, I don't think it should be taken to mean that GW is actually trying to portray the Imperium as homogeneous.

However, I should also remind you that the last time an IG codex included Al'Rahem, he was actually not the only non-Caucasion IG character; there was also the Attilan special character, who was (presumably) Asian.



Anyhow, my bottom line is this: I think it's been suggested by GW that the Imperium is an incredibly diverse polity, and includes populations displaying every facet of human variation. If the art doesn't always reflect this, I don't view it as undermining what's been said about the diversity of the Imperium. The Imperium--and the IG--are definitely diverse even if the artists sometimes forget to depict this in the artwork they make.

PondaNagura
01-10-2008, 20:17
whose to say that any of the original human colonists to nocturne were even of Afro-Caribbean descent in the first place. the peoples of the imperium have been in space for what [?] close to 40k years...that's a long time. plenty of time for genetic modification, or even controlled mutation [EVOLUTION!] to have taken place. the people of nocturne could be noted as to having a dark complexion, rather than slapping on region/cultrural tags like Afro-Caribbean.
a planet's population will not have been based purely on the descendant from particular cultures of Old Earth, so much as the environment they live in. how else would one explain abhumans strains?

Apocalypse
01-10-2008, 20:43
All this political correctness is quite frankly garbage. All this afirmative action and racism-paranoia makes me sick. Yes, the black skin looks like crap I agree, but that's just the way it is. I think that ethnically brown skin looks better, but quite frankly it's as true to the storyline as the white skin. That being said, paint you're models however you like- I'm not gonna bust your balls about the skin colour of your Sallies... I am SO sick of hearing people bich and moan about where the ethnic people are. Maybe after soo many thousands of years of interbreeding, there is no such thing as different skin colours... Anyways, Salamanders skin is coal black, since the beginnning-and to the present. Maybe there ARE ethnically black chapters of marines, but they are NOT the Sallies. I don't understand the friggen malfunction with people's logic centres here. Get over it.

Argastes
01-10-2008, 20:53
"Political correctness"? "Affirmative action"? "Racism paranoia"? It sounds like you came into this thread, skimmed the posts, mostly missed the points that were being made, and decided it was time to grind your ax about whatever cultural issues annoy you. Cool down, bud. Everyone accepts that the Salamanders "now" have coal-black skin; some people have said they'll still paint them with other skin tones because they think it looks better but no-one is saying "GW is wrong, Salamanders don't actually have coal-black skin". No one is trying to insist that the latest fluf is invalid and that Salamanders actually still have normal human skin tones.

starlight
01-10-2008, 20:57
The issue (as I see it) is that GW has dredged up a long forgotten scrap of trivia (the colour of skin of Salamander Marines) from Rogue Trader that conflicts with *every* example they have shown us over the last twenty years. If Salamander had *black* skin, then GW should have made sure that the were portrayed that way, but they didn't until now when they seemingly at random pull this bit out of the depths of time.

What next? Harlequins in Land Raiders? Rogue Trader had numerous ideas that have long since been consigned to the circular file as 40K grew and developed, I think the current discussion is a perfect example of why this one should be too. Everyone (perhaps bar Mr Priestly) has been perfectly happy painting Salamanders however they wanted for the last twenty years, now he has to go and muck it up with his *but that's not how we did it in the beginning...*. Well, we don't have Harlequins in Land Raider anymore either and good thing!

Apocalypse
01-10-2008, 23:38
"Political correctness"? "Affirmative action"? "Racism paranoia"? It sounds like you came into this thread, skimmed the posts, mostly missed the points that were being made, and decided it was time to grind your ax about whatever cultural issues annoy you. Cool down, bud.

Naw, sorry... reading what I said now, it does kinda come off bad... It's just that I JUST had this arguement with someone not more than a week ago, and they were going on and on about how there HAS to be an ethnic chapter... well basically it was this guy ranting about race in not just 40K, but ALL gaming, RPG's included... One of the earlier posters actually touched on the subject with Drow and cosplayers- this was the EXACT thing me and this guy were going on about... it just drove me crazy how he like.. i dunno.. wanted to rewrite D&D & 40K storyline in some weird form of fantasy affirmative action... when I saw this thread i read the first page and by the end of that, all my annoyed emotions just flooded to the fore... srry 'bout that. I realize now my post definatly came off ignorant in the extreme... jeeze how embarassing- i can feel my face all warm and red with shame-blush.

Terror of the East
02-10-2008, 09:04
Hi along the same lines as the skin colour/ what colour should salamander hair be?

Dominus_Serui
02-10-2008, 19:55
If your going to go for the full-drow look, make it white while your at it.

ChaosBeast
04-10-2008, 09:56
obviously there are multi ethnic worlds in the imperium and ethnic marine chapters. maybe nocturne's inhabitants have naturally dark skin from living on a planet with such huge amounts of UV radiation and the implantation of the melachrome makes the pigmentation more pronounced.

what interests me is if any of the alien races have different skin tones. are there black/ brown eldar? are there yellow or brown orks? are there green tau?

MvS
04-10-2008, 10:58
Regarding the idea that skin tone or 'ethnicity' wouldn't matter because 40,000 years in the future we would all look different anyway:

I think that this is a flawed position because regardless of how humanity might look in several thousand years if we all stayed on earth and interbred across continents like rabbits, humanity in the 40K imagery has spread across the galaxy and has lived on all sorts of exotic worlds for tens of thousands of years.

There would be any number of 'colours' and skin tones and even more exotic adaptive 'tweaks' to the physiology of all those quadrillions of humans living on over a million worlds and hundreds of millions of continents and environments.

I would imagine that different levels and types of ambient radiation, or minerals and exotic materials in the soil, or differents levels of moisture and acidity in the atmosphere, or the after-effects of gene-experiments from the Dark Age of Technology (for survival, cosmetic titillation, scientific curiosity, you name it) would all lead to some very distinct and even bizarre skin colours in addition to all the tones and types we are used to today on Earth.

But bringing the topic back around, I don't think there is anything wrong with the idea of panther-black Salamanders with red eyes, providing they're depicted as realistically as possible - with tones and depth to their features. That said, painting them is really tricky and the fact that it was dredged up from Rogue Trader days on a whim doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

It's not as if their jet black skin and red eyes have been vitally important to their imagery up until now and integral to how they are perceived within the Imperium - unlike the vaguely Norse/Viking imagery of the Space Wolves and vaguely Mongolian imagery of the White Scars.

Argastes
04-10-2008, 19:14
Hi along the same lines as the skin colour/ what colour should salamander hair be?

Hard to say, because most Marines are depicted as bald in both the models and the artwork, making it quite difficult to find any GW-provided example of a Salamander with hair. The only one I can think of was the Salamander commander model pictured in the 3rd Edition Codex: Armageddon; he had dark skin and blond hair. Of course, that was back in the days when the Salamanders had natural skin tones (some dark, some pale), rather than the stupid jet-black look they have now. So nowadays, who knows. To the best of my knowledge, GW hasn't shown us any "current" artwork or models depicting Salamanders with hair.

Triszin The Wrath God
04-10-2008, 19:23
thanks for all the info on the sallies, since im rather new to 40k i havent been around long enough to read all of the original fluff about them having "non coal black skin"
btw, how the &&&* did people think this was about racism, comeon you people 40k years int he future, ya theres racism, but thats towards the tau, eldar, ork etc... they view the imperium of man as, well the imperium of man, 1 race.

thanks for all the info again, im thinking of trying to do a army of em that shows as much skin as possible so i can improve my painting skills to make it look like charcoal skin.

starlight
04-10-2008, 19:33
Actually the *original* background *was* the stuff with them having coal black skin and red eyes, it's the 2nd-4th Ed stuff that diverged into more *earth normal* tones, before reverting to coal black for 5th Ed.


In short, do whatever makes you happy.:D