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Whitehorn
30-09-2008, 09:38
A unit of skirmishers is ranked 5-wide for combat.
It wins the combat and breaks the enemy.
The enemy flee and are overrun, but run into a fanatic on one side.

Do the pursuing skirmishers hit the fanatic?

The rulebook states they return to their skirmishing formation once the combat ends.

Does this mean they can be placed back into skirmishing 'spread' and avoid the single fanatic. Or would they pursue as a 5-wide rank and clip the fanatic?

Gazak Blacktoof
30-09-2008, 10:17
However you want to play it.

In my opinion provided none of the skirmishers exceed their movement allowance in a pursuit or overrun move and the lead model moves the full distance in the correct direction you can mass the unit whichever way you want.

I'm not sure if its necessary to maintain the same unit width even when altering the formation as there aren't really any hard and fast rules to cover this. Its supposed to be a fairly uncontrolled lunge forward when units pursue though so maintaining width makes sense contextually- they probably wont see an enemy unit or fanatic until its too late.


To sum up- I'd maintain width and move the leading elements of the unit the maximum distance forward (removing odd models to allow for a broken appearance ie a 5 wide unit would now have 3 in its front "rank") and follow up behind with the rest of the unit in any manner you want to.

Hopefully that all makes some kind of sense, basically don't try to screw yourself or your opponent over.

EDIT: Lastly, if the pursuit or overrun would take the skirmishers far enough to contact a new enemy unit its treated as a new charge so I'd check for that first as this might force you to move over a fanatic even if maintaining your frontage would allow you to move past it.

Whitehorn
30-09-2008, 10:27
You mention 'too late'.

Are we to assume a pursuer meets the fleeing unit at the final distance it ran?

or would they meet them at any point between start and destination?

Surely the dice roll represents speed of flight, hence they catch them off the mark and in the case of skirmishers, reform their 'formation' to end at the final distance as required.

Gazak Blacktoof
30-09-2008, 11:46
Whether the pursuer catches the fleeing unit is down to the dice roll entirely and is abstracted. They could get run down or scatter at any point on their flee path, they are simply removed if the flee roll does not exceed the pursuit roll.

I said "too late" because the pursuing unit is barrelling forward and are unable to stop themselves crashing into other units or else are too caught up in the fight to notice that they are now fighting a different enemy. This is fairly logical amid the clamour of battle where hesitation can get you killed and is explained in the pursuit into fresh enemy rules, its the reason a unit does not have to test for fear or terror when carrying out such a charge.

Admittedly it makes more sense with ranked units or cavalry where anybody attempting to stop mind-charge is liable to get caught underfoot and trampled by their comrades but the same rules apply to every unit and its easy to understand why it would apply to even skirmishers who do not have a mass of bodies behind them.

Lastly and more to the point (I'm waffling a bit), when a unit is removed they are often considered to be scattered rather than dead, fleeing troops are going to prevent you seeing fanatics or enemy units until its "too late". They might attempt to turn or slow when they seen the fanatic and get cut down only for their pursuers to meet the same grizzly fate the man they just killed was trying to avoid.

Whitehorn
30-09-2008, 13:00
You say both 'sense' and 'abstract'. I guess these are the slings and arrows of Warhammer :)

Perhaps this is something to escalate to FAQ. It would be nice to see how skirmishers move during a pursuit, despite being able to end their movement out of rank and file.

To elaborate on what happened, 6 Squig Hoppers beat and broke a unit of Dwarf Longbeards. They both rolled 11, so the Dwarves were slain, but the Dwarves *would* have clipped a fanatic en route, while there would be sufficient room to position / avoid the fanatic with the Hoppers - unless they are forced to move a tight 5-wide formation.

Lordmonkey
30-09-2008, 14:41
Consider the attached diagram...

The Red unit has broken from combat, and flees. Unit X was engaged in the flank, and pursues. Which diagram most accurately represents the way in which unit X moves during pursuit?

In the case of A, must the unit move towards the middle of the red unit, or can it move towards any point of the red unit in order to catch them? If so, then the skirmishers could in theory negotiate their way around most things simple by choosing a particular 'point' of the enemy unit to pursue.

Also, Which way does unit X end up facing?

In the case of B, how can unit X actually catch the red unit if it does not connect with them (it moves in parallel)? Or, does it not need to, but rather simply win the distance roll for flee/pursuit?

In the case of C, does unit X move in the same direction as the Red unit, but get put "in line" with the fleeing unit beforehand?

Gazak Blacktoof
30-09-2008, 15:24
Units are run down on die roll alone, see page 40. Diagram C is the most accurate, have a look at the bottom of page 43 in the BRB which also indicates that even if the pursures catch the fleeing unit physically they are moved back 1".

Lordmonkey
01-10-2008, 08:53
Thanks Gazak.

So to continue, in the case of pursuing skirmishers, does each and every model in the skirmishing unit have to move the full pursuit distance? If so, they would all need to go in a straight line from where they stood - and therefore clip the fanatic.

Whitehorn
01-10-2008, 09:26
Thanks Gazak.

If so, they would all need to go in a straight line from where they stood - and therefore clip the fanatic.

Yes and no.
Straight line... fine.
Full distance... fine.

What's stopping them, as skirmishers, do this?

Whitehorn
01-10-2008, 09:41
Additionally, can skirmishers (green) pursue blue through this gap? do they hit (in rank) the wall and stop or can they fold formation (as skirmishing move) and fit in?

Lordmonkey
01-10-2008, 09:45
The pursuing unit must move in a straight line.

In the above example (B) some or all models moved diagonally, some or none moved straight. But how do you define where the "unit" is in the case of skirmishers? Does each individual model need to move straight, or is it just the "unit"? In the case of the latter, it may be possible that some models do not move at all!

++EDIT++

When i say "straight" i mean "parallel to the direction of pursuit" :p

Whitehorn
01-10-2008, 10:00
Diagonal lines are straight.

DeathlessDraich
01-10-2008, 10:38
A unit of skirmishers is ranked 5-wide for combat.
It wins the combat and breaks the enemy.
The enemy flee and are overrun, but run into a fanatic on one side.

Do the pursuing skirmishers hit the fanatic?

The rulebook states they return to their skirmishing formation once the combat ends.

Does this mean they can be placed back into skirmishing 'spread' and avoid the single fanatic. Or would they pursue as a 5-wide rank and clip the fanatic?

1) If the fleeing unit hits the Fanatic the Fanatic is killed and inflicts wounds. The pursuing unit will therefore not encounter any Fanatics.

2) If however the fleeing unit is caught, then the pursuers could hit the Fanatic

3) Pursuing units move in the *same* direction as fleers and their full distance unless obstructed - pg 43. This includes skirmishers.

Therefore pursuing skirmishers will maintain their formation, pivot on the spot and move along the fleeing direction as far as possible until they reach their full pursuit distance or are stopped by impassable terrain etc.


4) If you allow a skirmishing unit that is pursuing after winning combat, to move *exactly* like skirmishers, then it is possible for a skirmishing model to Pursue into an enemy unit fighting an unresolved combat *behind* the skirmishing unit's original combat position.

T10
01-10-2008, 11:16
Why assume that the fleing unit ends its move on top of the Fanatic? If it sucessfully escapes the pursuers then it is very possible that both units score a piece of Fanatic action.

-T10

DeathlessDraich
01-10-2008, 13:13
You're right of course - there is the third possibility of the fleeing unit going past the Fanatic in addition to the 2 I mentioned.

Whitehorn
02-10-2008, 08:07
Some new information after reading some rules:

Pursuers stop their pursuit upon contact with a friendly unit - does not hit fanatic.
For a fanatic to hurt a unit it must pass through the unit (in its own move) or a unit ends up over the fanatic's base.

Other interesting thoughts:
Fanatics cannot be charged. This implies overrun stops upon contact with a fanatic.

Braad
02-10-2008, 09:54
As far as I know, you roll both flee and pursuit before any moves are made. If the pursuit roll is higher, then the fleeers are not moved at all but immidiately removed from game. Right? Then the pursuers are moved, and they could encounter the fanatic.

I'm not really sure about the rest, I got the feeling this is one of those odd situations... But I would say, if the book indeed says that they assume skirmish formation after combat ends, that the combat only truly ends after any flee and pursuit moves.
It might sound a bit unlogical, but otherwise I think you're just generating difficult situations.

For example, if you got a big skirmish unit and you just made an overrun, and theres a unit next to the one destroyed which should never be hit by said overrun but now you go by not keeping the same formation during overrun/pursuit as you propose... Then the fanatics fan out, like in the diagram in post 9, but instead of a smaller front, they gain a wider front, and suddenly they do touch that unit.
Sounds unfair, but by this interpretation I don't see why it is not allowed. Therefore, i would say, Keep formation until the whole thing is completely done. Even if this causes a disadvantage for you.

DeathlessDraich
02-10-2008, 10:11
Some new information after reading some rules:

Pursuers stop their pursuit upon contact with a friendly unit - does not hit fanatic.
For a fanatic to hurt a unit it must pass through the unit (in its own move) or a unit ends up over the fanatic's base.

Other interesting thoughts:
Fanatics cannot be charged. This implies overrun stops upon contact with a fanatic.


I would interpret "over the Fanatic" as inclusive of being in contact but that is merely an opinion.

Braad
02-10-2008, 11:30
Some new information after reading some rules:

Pursuers stop their pursuit upon contact with a friendly unit - does not hit fanatic.
For a fanatic to hurt a unit it must pass through the unit (in its own move) or a unit ends up over the fanatic's base.

Other interesting thoughts:
Fanatics cannot be charged. This implies overrun stops upon contact with a fanatic.

Hmmm... I think the rule that says you stop when you hit a friendly unit when overrunning are there because normally you can't move through friends in normal situations anyway while the fleeer is allowed to do that. The fanatic has his own rules about moving through even if your friendly and they state that a unit can move through, but you take hits when doing so.
Normally armybook rules overrule BRB, though this could be questionable in this situation, since the fanatics rules don't really say anything about what happens when a pursuing unit meets one. So you could argue whether or not the 'moving through' special rules also apply for the moving while pursuing.

Fanatics can indeed not be charged, but this could just as well mean that the unit would move on. Nowhere does it say that because they can't be charged, they also stop movement because of that. It depends on how you handle the first part and only actually means that no combat engagement can be started.

In the spirit of the game, regardless of actual rules, I would say: You released the buggers, now deal with them!
And I say that as an O&G player who had many a fanatic spinning back into his own units. Its just part of the thing fanatics do: kill your own stuff...

BEEGfrog
02-10-2008, 14:14
This is all covered by the rules, see diagram at bottom of pg 43 for flankers question, pg 65 for skirmishers, pg25 of O&G for fanatics.

1) Skirmishers don't need gaps on the tabletop, they can be up to 1" apart, up to includes 0" apart. Pursuing skirmishers remain in block until end of pursuit then count as closely packed skirmishers unless you spread out the middle and rear of unit. The two front corners should stay where they would have reached in a block as should any skirmishers whose position in the block would make it the the closest model to an enemy unit, no model should move more than the pursuit distance. They move normally and restablish gaps as a result of normal movement in following round(s).

2) All pursuers move in a straight line parallel to the direction of the fleeing unit.

3) Flanking or rear attacking units pivot on their centres to face in the direction of pursuit, then move the full distance of pursuit rolled. Their pivot and move may move them into contact with the fleeing unit, but if they rolled lower than the flight roll they cannot contact the fleeing unit and so haved to be moved straight back 1" from the fleeing unit.

4) All pursuing units end up facing the same direction as the fleeing unit they are pursuing.

5) Fanatic rule means that units ignore them for movement purposes.

6) Fleeing unit takes D6 S5 hits if it moves over or clips fanatic. Fleeing unit takes additional D6 S5 hits and fanatic is destroyed if unit stops over the fanatic.

7) Pursuing unit takes D6 S5 hits if the R&F equivalent block moves over or clips fanatic. Pursing unit takes additional D6 S5 hits and fanatic is destroyed if block stops over the fanatic.