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eleveninches
30-09-2008, 15:29
Which One is the best?


OPTION 1: MALEKITH'S BODYGUARD
600: Malekith
185: lv2 Sorcerer (sacrificial dagger, gem of nightmares)
171: Assassin (cloak of twilight, rune of khaine, +1HW, manbane)
183: 29 Warriors (standard, musician)
189: 30 Warriors (standard, musician)
85: 5 Dark Riders
55: 5 Harpies
55: 5 Harpies
342: 19 Black Guard (FC, Ring of Hotek, Standard of Hag Graef)
135: 5 COld One Knights
----
2000
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OPTION 2: DRAGONLORD ASSAULT
591: Dreadlord (lance, heavy armour, shield, black dragon egg, cloak of hag graef, 3x null talismans, 2x repeater handbows, black dragon)
159: Master BSB (halberd, ring of hotek, Armour of darkness)
220: 30 Warriors (FC, warbanner)
92: 5 Dark Riders (musician)
92: 5 Dark Riders (musician)
55: 5 Harpies
55: 5 Harpies
85: 5 Shades (+1 HWs)
90: 5 Shades (great weapons)
90: 5 Shades (great weapons)
100: Repeater Bolt Thrower
100: Repeater Bolt Thrower
100: Repeater Bolt Thrower
171: Assassin (+1HW, Rune of Khaine, manbane, cry of war, hand of khaine)
----
2000
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OPTION 3: BALANCED SQUIDFACE
250: Lokhir Fellheart
185: lv2 Mage (sacrificial dagger, pearl of infinite bleakness)
159: Master BSB (halberd, ring of hotek, Armour of darkness)
208: 28 Warriors (FC, warbanner)
204: 29 Warriors (FC, banner of cold blood)
92: 5 Dark Riders (musician)
92: 5 Dark Riders (musician)
55: 5 Harpies
108: 5 Shades (great weapons)
345: 20 Black Guard (FC, banner of hag graef, champion has soulrender)
100: Repeater Bolt Thrower
100: Repeater Bolt Thrower
100: Repeater Bolt Thrower

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1998
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OPTION 4: DOUBLE CAULDRONS WITH CAVALRY
250: Death Hag (cauldron, witchbrew, manbane)
250: Death Hag (cauldron, witchbrew, manbane)
189: Master BSB (halberd, cold one, shield, heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, ring of hotek, crimson death)
92: 5 Dark Riders (musician)
92: 5 Dark Riders (musician)
92: 5 Dark Riders (musician)
55: 5 Harpies
108: 6 Shades (great weapons)
259: 7 Cold One Knights (FC, null talisman, banner of cold blood)
213: 7 Cold One Knights (standard, musician)
100: Repeater Bolt Thrower
100: Repeater Bolt Thrower
100: Repeater Bolt Thrower
100: Repeater Bolt Thrower
----
2000
----


OPTION 5: MAGIC MADNESS
670: lv4 Supreme Sorceress (focus familiar, pendant of khaeleth, black dragon egg, black dragon)
185: lv2 Mage (sacrificial dagger, pearl of infinite bleakness)
185: lv2 Mage (darkstar cloak, gem of nightmares)
184: 24 Warriors (FC, warbanner)
204: 29 Warriors (FC, banner of cold blood)
85: 5 Dark Riders (musician)
55: 5 Harpies
55: 5 Harpies
171: Assassin (+1HW, Rune of Khaine, manbane, cry of war, hand of khaine)
100: Cold One Chariot
100: Cold One Chariot
----
1999
----

Malorian
30-09-2008, 15:34
The calvary one seems the most dangerous... the rest don't really have much meat to them other than a one hit wonder.

VVar
30-09-2008, 16:53
The calvary one seems the most dangerous... the rest don't really have much meat to them other than a one hit wonder.



QFT.

Aside from that....


1) No hydras...in any of the lists...

2) Shields on Dark Riders=no more fast cav=waste

3) Black guard with ring of hotek in the army where you will be using the most magic....all the opponent has to do to protect himself from all of your magic is get within that 12" bubble and all of a sudden your magic defense is hurting your casters just as bad.

4) Used pendant once...it's a great item, put it somewhere else :)

5) Master on a cold one by himself? With halberd? I don't get it. I assume he would go with black guard to protect from shooting, but aside from that I don't get it at all.

6) Not sure how lvl 4 on dragon would fare, so can't comment there...I suppose your strat would be to get dragon into combat and use familiar to keep sorc casting while being safe from shooting? I like that, but if dragon gets swarmed and beaten by CR you'll lose your general and most of your powerful magic. But..probably the one I like the best out of everything.



I wouldn't take any of the lists without some major changes, but if you're going for a theme or something....

eleveninches
30-09-2008, 17:03
QFT.

Aside from that....

[quote]
1) No hydras...in any of the lists...
Still not a big fan of hydras. They will die rather easily and are not as effective as RBTs

2) Shields on Dark Riders=no more fast cav=waste
??? how does that stop tehm from being fast cav?

3) Black guard with ring of hotek in the army where you will be using the most magic....all the opponent has to do to protect himself from all of your magic is get within that 12" bubble and all of a sudden your magic defense is hurting your casters just as bad. I can get away with it if I keep all infantry units within 12" of the ring, but the wizards themselves just over 12" from the ring.


4) Didn't use pendant once...it's a great item, put it somewhere.
The mage has it


5) Master on a cold one by himself? With halberd? I don't get it. I assume he would go with black guard to protect from shooting, but aside from that I don't get it at all.
[quote] Hes going in with the warrior unit that has a warbanner. Hes got a halberd because I dont expect to be charging all of the time.
[quote]
6) Not sure how lvl 4 on dragon would fare, so can't comment there...I suppose your strat would be to get dragon into combat and use familiar to keep sorc casting while being safe from shooting? I like that, but if dragon gets swarmed and beaten by CR you'll lose your general and most of your powerful magic. But..probably the one I like the best out of everything.The fact that the dragon has hatred means that it is going to be a lot more killy than most other dragons, even a star dragon (since the black dragon is going to hit a lot more often). And the familiar lets me cast out of combat. :)

Repsajanus
30-09-2008, 18:24
[quote]
how does that stop tehm from being fast cav?

check the rules, give them shields and they lose the fast cav rules...

VVar
30-09-2008, 18:31
[quote]
QFT.

Aside from that....

Still not a big fan of hydras. They will die rather easily and are not as effective as RBTs??? how does that stop tehm from being fast cav? I can get away with it if I keep all infantry units within 12" of the ring, but the wizards themselves just over 12" from the ring.
The mage has it
[quote]
5) Master on a cold one by himself? With halberd? I don't get it. I assume he would go with black guard to protect from shooting, but aside from that I don't get it at all.
[quote] Hes going in with the warrior unit that has a warbanner. Hes got a halberd because I dont expect to be charging all of the time.
The fact that the dragon has hatred means that it is going to be a lot more killy than most other dragons, even a star dragon (since the black dragon is going to hit a lot more often). And the familiar lets me cast out of combat. :)

1)I disagree strongly with your viewpoint on hydras...I've been keeping an eye on the dark elf lists that do strongly in tournaments, and nearly all of them run a double hydra. Not saying you need to, but if they are dieing every game for you there must be a reason.

2) When you put shields on dark riders, they no longer count as fast cav. From rulebook *Fast Cavalry (Unless equipped with shields). You would be much better off going with the commonly run RxB+musi in all of the squads, they still have spears for +1 str on the charge to assist with flank charges and whatnot, but they do what they do best; bait, misdirect, and wittle things down before it's time to charge in.

2)where the ring of hotek is concerned, I really think you should play a game with it+wizards, it is a lot harder to avoid than you may think

3)I could be wrong, but I had thought that putting a mounted guy with stupidity in a unit made the whole unit stupid? And if you're not planning on charging much, you could just give him armor of darkness instead of a cold one mount, and scratch the shield, heavy armor, and cloak. Crimson death would be a better weapon choice as well.

eleveninches
01-10-2008, 11:27
1)I disagree strongly with your viewpoint on hydras...I've been keeping an eye on the dark elf lists that do strongly in tournaments, and nearly all of them run a double hydra. Not saying you need to, but if they are dieing every game for you there must be a reason. Considering the amount of shooting a lot of armies have, hydras are going to die very quickly.


2) When you put shields on dark riders, they no longer count as fast cav. From rulebook *Fast Cavalry (Unless equipped with shields). You would be much better off going with the commonly run RxB+musi in all of the squads, they still have spears for +1 Str on the charge to assist with flank charges and whatnot, but they do what they do best; bait, misdirect, and wittle things down before it's time to charge in.
my bad. I didnt notice this, but i've checked it and i'll change them to have musician and one unit with RxBs

2)where the ring of hotek is concerned, I really think you should play a game with it+wizards, it is a lot harder to avoid than you may think Thats why I am relying heavily upon it. I meant that I can have my own wizards just outside of 12" of the ring, whilst that wizard's unit is just inside of 12" of the ring. Sneaksy tricks :)


3)I could be wrong, but I had thought that putting a mounted guy with stupidity in a unit made the whole unit stupid? And if you're not planning on charging much, you could just give him armor of darkness instead of a cold one mount, and scratch the shield, heavy armor, and cloak. Crimson death would be a better weapon choice as well.No, as I understand it, he himself is stupid, but if he fails the Ld test, the entire unit moves forwards 4" as if it were stupid. So effecively, the unit is stupid. Good idea, I'll drop the cold one and get a 1+ save from the magic armour.

Lists edited appropriately

PARTYCHICORITA
01-10-2008, 15:31
I liked the double cauldron idea, however i would like to throw the idea of 2 hidras instead of the RBT. Good luck.

eleveninches
02-10-2008, 08:44
Im new to DE, but I've been playing HE for a while now, and trust me, 4xRBT are going to kill a lot more than 2 hydras. plus, the hydras will die easily. 2 cannon shots or 3 boltthrower shots should kill a hydra outright.

eleveninches
06-10-2008, 13:19
I need to decide soon which army to go for. Probably either the squidface one or the double cauldron one. I'm also not 100% sure whether to keep the bolt throwers in the lists or drop them for 2 warhydras.

Repsajanus
06-10-2008, 17:57
I'm not really sure about this one, but can you give witchbrew to Death Hags? It says "Hags only"? but is hag = death hag?
I'm not sure, but i wouldn't try it on a tourny before asking someone ...
as for the lists : corsairs can be a nice addition to a list with that slaver rule... use a squad of 10 for a nice support charge!

eleveninches
07-10-2008, 11:55
Might replace bolt throwers for hydras, but both cost a lot now that the metals have gone up.

So, either:

OPTION 3: BALANCED SQUIDFACE
250: Lokhir Fellheart
185: lv2 Mage (sacrificial dagger, pearl of infinite bleakness)
159: Master BSB (halberd, ring of hotek, Armour of darkness)
208: 28 Warriors (FC, warbanner)
204: 29 Warriors (FC, banner of cold blood)
92: 5 Dark Riders (musician)
92: 5 Dark Riders (musician)
55: 5 Harpies
108: 6 Shades (great weapons)
345: 20 Black Guard (FC, banner of hag graef, champion has soulrender)
100: Repeater Bolt Thrower
100: Repeater Bolt Thrower
100: Repeater Bolt Thrower

-----
1998
-----

OPTION 4: DOUBLE CAULDRONS WITH CAVALRY
250: Death Hag (cauldron, cry of war, hand of khaine, manbane)
250: Death Hag (cauldron, cry of war, hand of khaine, manbane)
189: Master BSB (halberd, cold one, shield, heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, ring of hotek, crimson death)
92: 5 Dark Riders (musician)
92: 5 Dark Riders (musician)
92: 5 Dark Riders (musician)
55: 5 Harpies
108: 6 Shades (great weapons)
259: 7 Cold One Knights (FC, null talisman, banner of cold blood)
213: 7 Cold One Knights (standard, musician)
100: Repeater Bolt Thrower
100: Repeater Bolt Thrower
100: Repeater Bolt Thrower
100: Repeater Bolt Thrower
----
2000
----

with option of replacing bolt throwers with hydras

izikial
07-10-2008, 22:58
i love dragon lord assult and double coldren one, the double coldren one seems to pack a hefty punch will still having some baite and flee witch is nice, and the dragon lord, well i like dragons and i like assasins

theunwantedbeing
07-10-2008, 23:26
Option 4 is the best to go for.

eleveninches
13-10-2008, 10:41
Just been thinking, how would a TRIPLE cauldron army seem?

250: Death Hag (cauldron of blood, manbane, hand of khaine, cry of war)
250: Death Hag (cauldron of blood, manbane, hand of khaine, cry of war)
250: Death Hag (cauldron of blood, manbane, hand of khaine, cry of war)
177: Master BSB (dark steed, heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, shield, ring of hotek, crimson death)
117: 5 Dark Riders (RxBs, musician)
117: 5 Dark Riders (RxBs, musician)
117: 5 Dark Riders (RxBs, musician)
55: 5 Harpies
66: 6 Harpies
126: 7 Shades (great weapons)
126: 7 Shades (great weapons)
175: Warhydra
175: Warhydra
----
2001
----

7 Shades with 4 WS5 hatred S5 attacks each!!!
lol :)


Probably that army and a dragonlord 2-hydra army, both being collected at the same time :)

TheDarkDaff
13-10-2008, 11:08
You do realise Cry of War is useless on a Cauldron Hag as they can't charge (warmachine) and you have no real good targets for the blessings and a unit can only have a single blessing a turn regardless of how many cauldrons you have (so your shades have max 2 WS5 hatred S5 Attacks each).

If you want to use a Cauldron you really need Khainite Units to benefit from the Stubborn and they tend to be the best targets for blessings anyway.

Gazak Blacktoof
13-10-2008, 11:15
3 cauldrons is certainly too many. You'll quickly run out of elements to bless with them leaving you with 3 cauldrons that can't charge or do anything else useful.

2 cauldrons seems viable but they should stand behind a solid battle line. They should allow you to perform solid hammer and anvil tactics.

My choice would be the "balanced squid face list" its the kind of army I like using. If you're going to run lokhir you should include some corsairs. I'd probably want some heavy cavalry or a hydr in there but it looks like a good place to start for an army.

eleveninches
13-10-2008, 11:42
You do realise Cry of War is useless on a Cauldron Hag as they can't charge (warmachine) and you have no real good targets for the blessings and a unit can only have a single blessing a turn regardless of how many cauldrons you have (so your shades have max 2 WS5 hatred S5 Attacks each).As I understand it, cry of war is for when a unit charges me. And are you sure that the effects cant stack?

TheDarkDaff
13-10-2008, 21:03
As I understand it, cry of war is for when a unit charges me. And are you sure that the effects cant stack?

The First line of Cry of War "A unit charged by a warrior with Cry of War..." and look at pg 51 under Blessings of Khaine for "A unit may only be affected by a single blessing per turn, even if you have more than one Cauldron of Blood." (it is right above the Fury of Khaine description.

eleveninches
14-10-2008, 11:06
Ah, but it doesnt clarify whether it means a single 'type' of blessing, or just one blessing. It could be interpreted to be only one type of blessing per unit

Gazak Blacktoof
14-10-2008, 11:15
The book reads "A unit may only be affected by a single blessing per turn, even if you have more than one Cauldron of Blood."

One blessing of any type only.

eleveninches
14-10-2008, 11:32
well, that surely sucks. even still, a unit of 6-7 shades with hatred and great wepons and 2attacks each should beat most ranked up units in combat

popisdead
17-10-2008, 19:00
totally balanced. take a good effective list against all comers.

Randdogs
18-10-2008, 06:27
Keep in mind that if u go the 3 cauldron route that one of the hags is your General. This may cramp your fast units if u plan on using that ld buff.

I'd suggest dropping 2 rbts for a hydra. Get the best of both worlds, a heavy hitter and something to threaten heavy cavalry at a distance.

My 2 cents. :p

Dooppie
18-10-2008, 09:04
2 cauldron in 1 army sounds too much for me.
1 cauldron is fine and with the other 250 points you can spend on other units.

eleveninches
21-10-2008, 12:36
Okay, heres my humble attempt at being filthy:

555: Dreadlord (black dragon, shield, heavy armour, cloak of hag graef, ring of hotek, black dragon egg)
250: Death Hag (cauldron of blood, manbane, rune of khaine)
225: Death Hag (cauldron of blood, manbane)
117: 5 Dark Riders (musician, RxBs)
117: 5 Dark Riders (musician, RxBs)
117: 5 Dark Riders (musician, RxBs)
55: 5 Harpies
108: 6 Shades (great weapons)
108: 6 Shades (great weapons)
175: Warhydra
175: Warhydra
-----
2002
-----

GuyLeCheval
21-10-2008, 13:30
I'd take magic madness with some changes:
- Drop the dragon and take a hydra.
- Drop a single level 2 mage and some magic items and try to take unit of 15 execiutioners or black guard, this will strengthen up your infantry line.

eleveninches
21-10-2008, 13:48
One idea is to give Morathi the sacrificial dagger and black dragon egg for T6, and hope that her mount dies, then move her into a huge unit of 40 warriors and watch her kick ass. She knows all spell from dark elf lore, with +1 to cast. Do power of darkness to get extra dice. Then use the sacrificial dagger on each spell every turn.

eleveninches
24-10-2008, 13:53
Morathi idea:
535: Morathi (sacrificail dagger, black dragon egg, darksword)
310: Death Hag BSB (banner of hag graef, manbane, RoKhaine, cauldron)
138: Master (pegasus, heavy armour, lance, shield, cloak of hag graef, RoHotek)
280: 40 Warriors (FC, warbanner)
117: 5 Dark Riders (musician, RxBs)
117: 5 Dark Riders (musician, RxBs)
117: 5 Dark Riders (musician, RxBs)
124: 7 Shades (GWs)
124: 7 Shades (GWs)
135: 5 Cold One Knights
---
2001
---

Cast soul stealer in turn 1, so she has 6 wounds and place her out in the open. Then in the enemy turn, activate the black dragon egg to make her T6, and wait for her pegasus to die (she wont). Then march the warriors towards her and march her into the warriors and cast loads of magic using the sacrificial dagger up to 7 times per turn. I dont mind the unit taking panic tests, as even if they do fail one, it means that I will be rallying in my next turn and casting more magic again. Keep the master out of LOS and use his RoHotek to protect the shades and fast cav. Use the fast cav to flank units, and the cauldron to give either the cav or the shades an extra attack per model.

Gazak Blacktoof
24-10-2008, 14:25
Seems like a very bad plan to me. Some armies would hit her with a cannon ball or might not have any shooting to kill the pegasus with.

The focus familiar seems like a much better buy, I would also rather take the heart render than the dark sword.

eleveninches
24-10-2008, 14:39
about her weapons:
1 attack with dark sword = dead wizards. most Wizards will die from taking one wound.
killing blow = pointless IMO with only 3 attacks
And I wouldnt put her in line of sight of a cannon or bolt thrower. Just missile troops.

Gazak Blacktoof
24-10-2008, 15:05
Well with 3 attacks, hatred and a lance with KB most of them would die anyway, she would also be better for supporting charges given that she would be better at netting kills against all targets.

Sending her in to assassinate enemy wizards when she will likely break and could lose you a much more powerful wizard is a bad idea IMO.

I still wouldn't expose her to unnecessary firepower in the hope that Sulephet dies. One of her attributes is the mobility sulephet affords her. On foot she's just asking to get run down or assassinated.

eleveninches
24-10-2008, 15:39
I meant that the sword kills wizards with only one attack, the others going against the unit. And sending her into a combat on her own is a very bad idea, as she willl never win a combat. And she can do a LOT more in a big unit of warriors with sacrificial dagger and knowing all spells with +1 to cast

Gazak Blacktoof
24-10-2008, 16:33
I know what you're getting at with the wizards but I think the lance is probably still a better weapon. You might have a slightly better chance to kill a wizard with the sword but its uses essentially end there.

I agree that she's got a lot of potential with the dagger however getting her into that situation where she can use it is entirely down to the fickle dice gods.

Give it a go, its worth trying for a few games if you're dead set on the idea and think you can pull it off. You'll be using the same morathi model even if you eventually find that it doesn't work.

An assassin and a level 4 with the dagger might be a better use of points if you want somebody to hurt wizards and a powerful caster.

eleveninches
28-10-2008, 12:40
current list (this is the one i'll be doing methinks):

555: Dreadlord (black dragon, shield, heavy armour, cloak of hag graef, ring of hotek, black dragon egg)
310: Death Hag BSB (cauldron of blood, manbane, rune of khaine, banner of hag graef)
225: Death Hag (cauldron of blood, manbane)
117: 5 Dark Riders (musician, RxBs)
117: 5 Dark Riders (musician, RxBs)
110: 5 Dark Riders (RxBs)
108: 6 Shades (great weapons)
108: 6 Shades (great weapons)
175: Warhydra
175: Warhydra
-----
2000
-----

eleveninches
30-10-2008, 12:17
How would a Hellebron army work?

350: Hellebron
310: BSB Hag (cauldron, rune of khaine, manbane, banner of hag graef)
188: Master (pegasus, ring of hotek, cloak of hag graef, lance, shield, heavy armour)
225: 20 Witch Elves (FC)
225: 20 Witch Elves (FC)
225: 20 Witch Elves (FC)
117: 5 Dark Riders (musician, RxBs)
117: 5 Dark Riders (musician, RxBs)
100: Chariot
90: 5 Shades
100: RBT
100: RBT
100: RBT
100: RBT