PDA

View Full Version : Alizabeth Bequin vs. Jurgen



Try Again Bragg
30-09-2008, 15:54
Why are they different? They both have the power to blank psychic activity. I know that Bequin is an Untouchable, this results in people not wanting to associate with her on a personal level. I always figered Jurgen was the same, except instead of not being able to form relationships because of some indefinable thing, his "untouchableness" took the form of him stinking all the time. People like Eisenhorn eventually overcome much of Alizabeth's problem to form relationships with her (not perfectly or completely of course) and Cain forms a relationship with Jurgen, but is still bothered by the smell.

Sorry if this does not make sense. Simply, why is it nessecary to have two groups that can block the warp? Why can't they just be the same?

Also, which one has the paraiah gene again?

The Guy
30-09-2008, 16:04
I think they're both the same. And both have Pariah genes.
The reason they seem to differ is because of different authors, Abnett wants to make Bequins 'power' a double edged knife that both helps and haunts Eisenhorn.
andy Mitchell on the other hand tries to portray Jurgen in a light hearted [probably slightly tongue in cheek] manner, adding extra character tot he Cain novels.

Black Antelope
30-09-2008, 16:05
they arnt to different groups. They both have the paraiah gene, its simply different names for the same thing (Blanks, paraiahs, untouchables, soulless, warp-negative etc). The differnce in effect can be explained either by artistic licence and the indervidule interpretation of the writers in question, or that all blanks manifest in slightly different ways.

MajorWesJanson
30-09-2008, 17:01
Blanks are unpleasant to be around. It takes on various aspects, but for Jurgen it is an unpleasant odor, while Bequin has sort of a dark aura. Different manifestations of the same basic problem.

Treadhead_1st
30-09-2008, 18:07
I'd hazard a guess that Eisenhorn was psychic (he commands people to come out of cover, present at Auguries etc), and so felt Bequin's effects for more keenly than a non-psyker like Cain would feel Jurgans.

REmember, no-one else can really stand Jurgen, outside of politeness for him being Cain's aide, and a fellow Valhallan. The Artillery Unit seemed keen to get rid of him, or at least lump him on Cain.

Yeah, where was I...oh yeah, they're the same thing, same gene gives the effects, manifests differently (like the gene for eye colour - we all have one, it just is slightly different in some people than others) - smell versus aura, and the fact that one's fellow is a psyker, and the others' fellow is a normal human.

PondaNagura
30-09-2008, 18:29
you know i often wondered if jurgen's odor was the manifestation of his pariah-gened nature, or whether it was more, people can't be bothered with me, then why even try (granted he does come of as a bit spacey).

Bookwrak
30-09-2008, 18:44
They're exactly the same, save that Bequin is by most accounts, a fairly decent person, while Jurgen is a slob with poor hygiene. People would generally try and avoid Jurgen anyways, due to the lingering stench of decomposing socks et al. It just so happens that what would be a natural aversion is intensified by his blank abilities, but no one aside from a psyker would notice it.

DapperAnarchist
30-09-2008, 19:15
There is a difference of sorts between a Blank, Untouchable, and a Pariah - like the difference between the gravitation fields of a pebble, planet, and singularity.

Frankye
30-09-2008, 19:26
I'd hazard a guess that Eisenhorn was psychic (he commands people to come out of cover, present at Auguries etc), and so felt Bequin's effects for more keenly than a non-psyker like Cain would feel Jurgans.IIRC he himself said he was a low-level psyker, and because of that he cannot even touch her without feeling pain.
Being both a psyker and learned of such things (isn't he a witch hunter?), maybe he just feels the dread of the blank, whereas "normal" people dislike for pariahs translates in their subconscious, to become "bad smell" or the likes of it.

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
30-09-2008, 19:54
Blank, Untouchable, and Pariah are wholly different, as DapperAnarchist said (his analogy is particularly apt). Jurgen is a Blank- a minimal warp presence (perhaps similar to that of the Tau), and a certian aura of "wrongness", not enough to be noticed as is, but enough to make people rather averse to his company. A fully manifest Pariah, on the other hand, can make people physically sick with his mere presence, is almost impossible to remain in a room with for any length of time, and can cause even minor psykers great pain by coming anywhere near them. An Untouchable probably sits somewhere between the two.

Another analogy- Let's say an average person measures, say, 10 Fictional and Gratuitous Psychic Soul Measurement Units. Jurgen might rate a 6 or 7, Bequin somewhere between 4 and 2, and a proper Pariah easily -10; not merely souless, but possessed of a sort of anti-soul.

Treadhead_1st
30-09-2008, 20:00
Mild spoilers of Cain series.


Blank, Untouchable, and Pariah are wholly different, as DapperAnarchist said (his analogy is particularly apt). Jurgen is a Blank- a minimal warp presence (perhaps similar to that of the Tau), and a certian aura of "wrongness", not enough to be noticed as is, but enough to make people rather averse to his company. A fully manifest Pariah, on the other hand, can make people physically sick with his mere presence, is almost impossible to remain in a room with for any length of time, and can cause even minor psykers great pain by coming anywhere near them. An Untouchable probably sits somewhere between the two.

And what happens when Amberly's Psyker gets too close to Jurgen? Sick & passes out - and then is reluctant to even be on the same ship as him. When being shot at by the genestealer/govenor blokey, it causes the govenor, down the hallway, to muck up his aim and get all sick.

Also, warp powers are totally interrupted by Jurgen's presence (much like Alizabeth) and both Jurgen/Alizabeth don't get affected by "aura" powers that can ensnare others.

So I dunno that Jurgen is "just" a blank, or whether the terms really are interchangable - the interchangability seems to depend on the author in question.

DapperAnarchist
30-09-2008, 21:21
So presumably Jurgen is at the same level as Bequin. Taking the average human of little to no psychic potential as 0, Eisenhorn is, say, 2, Bequin and Jurgen -4, the Apex Twins 20+, and a Culexus -15 or less. All of this being pulled out of my... hat. Yeah, my hat.

Lord Zarkov
30-09-2008, 21:56
I think that while Bequin just has her untouchableness to make people dislike her and generally takes care of herself Jurgan has his bad hygine and smell as well (which probably helps to disguise his blankness tbh, people actually have a reason to dislike him).

On Blank/Pariah/Untouchable: - As has been said it's a sliding scale, but whereas Pariah and Untouchable are purely used for the negavtive warp presence people (i.e. Jurgan, Bequin & the Distaff, Culexeus Assassins, Necron Pariahs, etc) whereas blank is misleadingly used sometimes for the above and sometimes for what Inquisitor terms 'Blunts' - i.e. those with no-minimal warp presence (Like Tau, but also some humans)
Where a blunt will be barely - not-at-all visible to one with warpsight a Pariah/Untouchable would be a great seeping blackness that obscures others. How dark and how far depends on the individuals natural 'talents' (like with psykers) and also on any training or equipment they have to enhance it (like Culexeuses and Necron Pariah). Where Bequin or Jurgan would be a small dark spot that will obscure those nearby, whereas a Culexeus Assassin would be like a black hole to psychic energy, distorting it away and giving complete warp-blindness in the nearby area.

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
30-09-2008, 22:06
And what happens when Amberly's Psyker gets too close to Jurgen? Sick & passes out - and then is reluctant to even be on the same ship as him. When being shot at by the genestealer/govenor blokey, it causes the govenor, down the hallway, to muck up his aim and get all sick.

Also, warp powers are totally interrupted by Jurgen's presence (much like Alizabeth) and both Jurgen/Alizabeth don't get affected by "aura" powers that can ensnare others.

So I dunno that Jurgen is "just" a blank, or whether the terms really are interchangable - the interchangability seems to depend on the author in question.

Amberly's psyker is nowhere near stable at the best of times, and comes across as particularly sensitive. Still, I'm probably understating the strength of Jurgen's anti-psychic potential. As with most things in 40k, consistency is a luxury.

Feor
30-09-2008, 22:40
The "scale" of this has actually been quantified to a certain extent in the Black Library publication The Inquisition. It notes how psykers are rated on a scale corresponding to the Greek Alphabet, with "Baseline human" being of rating "pi" and "snap titans with a thought" being "Alpha". As you go down from Pi towards Omega a person becomes more and more "blank". So someone rating "rho" (next below Pi) might be only capable of deflecting a casual psychic probling, someone with a rating of Omega is likely a Culexus assasin and sends psykers into convlusions just by being in the same room with them.

max the dog
01-10-2008, 00:11
Seeing as that Abnett is going to write another trilogy about Bequin I'm sure we're going to learn a lot more about her blankness in much greater detail. (he said it during an interview on a 40K podcast)
Jurgen on the other hand is much more of a comic relief character. If he didn't exist the character Cain would still as good as he is now (minus the gags of course).

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
01-10-2008, 00:52
He's also a fairly powerful plot device, no?

Lockjaw
01-10-2008, 00:57
you know i often wondered if jurgen's odor was the manifestation of his pariah-gened nature, or whether it was more, people can't be bothered with me, then why even try (granted he does come of as a bit spacey).

same here, I always figured Jurgen's odor was more because o f not caring about hygene or what people thought, rather than his untouchableness

Koryphaus
01-10-2008, 01:45
And there I was thinking, this was going to be a "Who would win in a fight between Bequin and Jurgen" thread.. Lol, its good to see that people are about to make different types of Vs threads

max the dog
01-10-2008, 02:28
He's also a fairly powerful plot device, no?

Not really since he's only been critical to the plot line once (Duty Calls). Since then he's just been added backup for Cain but one with a special ability.

I'm not dissing him, he is a pretty entertaining character. I just don't think he's any more critical to the novels than another dedicated character would be.

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
01-10-2008, 02:43
Ah yes. That would be the one with the Tau, and all sorts of genestealerly fun, yes? I read them as an anthology, so the books all sort of blend together in my mind.

Brother Siccarius
01-10-2008, 05:49
Why are they different? They both have the power to blank psychic activity. I know that Bequin is an Untouchable, this results in people not wanting to associate with her on a personal level. I always figered Jurgen was the same, except instead of not being able to form relationships because of some indefinable thing, his "untouchableness" took the form of him stinking all the time. People like Eisenhorn eventually overcome much of Alizabeth's problem to form relationships with her (not perfectly or completely of course) and Cain forms a relationship with Jurgen, but is still bothered by the smell.

Sorry if this does not make sense. Simply, why is it nessecary to have two groups that can block the warp? Why can't they just be the same?

Also, which one has the paraiah gene again?
Jurgen's stench comes from him actually smelling absolutely horrible, which is why it increases when he's in heat and decreases in the cold. It's something Cain doesn't touch on in his narrative except for a few times, but he generally describes Jurgen as having many unattractive qualities that make him such an unusual aide, aside from the smell.
It's passively mentioned in the fact that no one seems to remember or care to remember Jurgen in the retelling of the stories about Cain in-universe, which pisses off Cain to no end as he sees Jurgen as a dozen times the Hero people even attributed to himself.


@Max the Dog
Jurgen has also been critical in Traitor's Hand, Death or Glory, Duty's Call, and all of the cain books (Somewhat Ironic to see his roll in things forgotten in both the real world and the 40k world). If he wasn't with Cain, Cain would have been dead several hundred times over by now, he's much more than comic relief.
However his power has only been essential to Caves of Ice (His power allowed the group to avoid necrons), Traitor's Hand (allowing both his melta and Cain to severely damage a demon (earning Cain the status of sainthood on Tallarn, incidentally)), Duty's Call (In which his blank ability allows him to nullify a dangerously powerful artifact), and For the Emperor (Where it nullifies and distracts a broodlord, and allows those close, physically, to him to move almost unseen by the stealer hybrids).

His presence in the books is somewhat overshadowed similar to Samwise in the LOTR trillogy, both he and Jurgen are real heroes, but their actions are overshadowed by those around them.

Ikkaan
01-10-2008, 07:23
Jurgen and Bequin have the exactly same quirk: they are untouchables or pariahs. Blanks may exist (i.e. tau), but Jurgen unintentionally demonstrated that he can shield a group of people around him from warp related energies, so go figure. He is not just weak, he is blocking the warp like any other pariah.

The odor of Jurgen and the aloofness of bequin are not directly related to the fact that they are pariahs. Pariahs have no soul, or at least it isnīt showing up in the warp. Living beings sense that subconciously and try to avoid that person (if asked they would never be able to say why....the person they avoid is just, well, strange you know). The pariah experiences this his/her whole lifetime, they are the outcasts of society, living amidst people that never seem to like them. Not only that this hurts the pariah, it will model his mind. Jurgen had his faith in the emperor, said "frak it" and stopped socializing (and showering [for whom anyway?]). Bequin didnīt stop and failed a long time to realize that all attempts to form bonds were futile (hence the breakdown when she got the explanation).

Brother Siccarius
01-10-2008, 17:14
Jurgen and Bequin have the exactly same quirk: they are untouchables or pariahs. Blanks may exist (i.e. tau), but Jurgen unintentionally demonstrated that he can shield a group of people around him from warp related energies, so go figure. He is not just weak, he is blocking the warp like any other pariah.

The odor of Jurgen and the aloofness of bequin are not directly related to the fact that they are pariahs. Pariahs have no soul, or at least it isnīt showing up in the warp. Living beings sense that subconciously and try to avoid that person (if asked they would never be able to say why....the person they avoid is just, well, strange you know). The pariah experiences this his/her whole lifetime, they are the outcasts of society, living amidst people that never seem to like them. Not only that this hurts the pariah, it will model his mind. Jurgen had his faith in the emperor, said "frak it" and stopped socializing (and showering [for whom anyway?]). Bequin didnīt stop and failed a long time to realize that all attempts to form bonds were futile (hence the breakdown when she got the explanation).

Exactly, their personalities aren't necessarily tied to the power, but they are hugely effected by it. As to their effects, I wouldn't have expected two examples of the same, incomprehensibly rare, mutation to show up in exactly the same way anyways.

NeonDante
07-10-2008, 05:16
I think Jurgen stinks because he's a pariah (the socially inept kind, poor word choice, I know.) because he's a blank.

Let me explain. When I was in elementary school, there was a very unpopular kid, who I tried to make friends with. (Not that I was popular at all, but you know what I mean.) Se was rude, smelly, and hostile... I think that she just came to expect people being jerks. And the more time you spend apart from people, the worse you get socially.

So, because Jurgen was a blank, he had problems with people, so he became unpopular and withdrawn (he seems to have a stoic attitude on life... Phlegmatic, they always say.) and he just didn't learn social skills. Like bathing. At the risk of seeming cliche, there's lots of people like him hanging out in game stores. (a stereotype I know, but there's always one. :P)

Wheras Bequin never really gave up on that part of life. Made up for her disadvantage with charm, and her body.

As for who would win in a fight... Jurgen's got the firepower, but I'm going to have to put my money on Bequin. Jurgen's complete lack of imagination and somewhat dull wit are useful as an aide, but not in a fight. Wheres Bequin can think on her toes and be creative.

Frankye
07-10-2008, 11:13
Nice interpretation, I like the idea.


As for who would win in a fight... Jurgen's got the firepower, but I'm going to have to put my money on Bequin. Jurgen's complete lack of imagination and somewhat dull wit are useful as an aide, but not in a fight. Wheres Bequin can think on her toes and be creative.
Bequin gets to call the =I= ...

nazrag
07-10-2008, 13:16
Bequin gets to call the =I= ...

And Jurgen gets to call Cain who can call the =I= :P

Col. Tartleton
07-10-2008, 19:36
When ingenuity fails, the only option is a death ray.

Jellicoe
08-10-2008, 07:49
I tend to prefer the Jurgen pong intensity as a broader manifestation of his blankness

It should also be remembered that Mitchell is almost certainly using Jurgen as part of his broader homage to MacDonald Fraser (which he does very well I might add) We all know of Flashman but I would strongly suggest that Jurgen is based very much on the other great MacDonald Fraser anti hero Private McAuslan - the dirtiest soldier in the british army. This dishevelled, drunk, disorganised individual is very much the unexpected saviour in many of the semi autobiographical stories about life in a Highland regiment after the war

well worth a look