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eleveninches
30-09-2008, 18:06
I dont understand why Malekith seems to think that he should be phoenix king just because he is the son of Aenerion. Does he forget that he was only the third child of aenerion, not the first. Technically, both tyrion and teclis have a more direct claim to the phoenix throne than Malekith does.

Tanith Ghost
30-09-2008, 18:12
Not really, considering Malekith did all the hard work to put the elves to such a position of power. That and being direct relation to the crown is usually considered legit claim to the throne.

Weldo Rubin
30-09-2008, 18:51
Weren't the other two children raised by Treemen (and thus not fit to reign Ulthuan)?

Hawkkf
30-09-2008, 18:54
As far as I can tell the elves have a system of electing their rulers, not going by lineage. Therefore Malekith should not have thought it was his right as son of Aenerion.

However by the time of his claim several things had taken place. First he had spent a great deal of time with dwarves, to whom family lineage is everything. It is possible that his time there (specially after drinking and chatting with dwarves who would see him as heir apparent) influenced him.

Also theres the influence of Khaine that Aenerion cursed his entire bloodline with. It could be argued that since he is a direct relation (i.e. child) that he was more directly affected by it than say Tyrion or Teclis.

Then there is the Macbeth syndrome. A relatively good, loyal guy sitting there with someone else (Morathi) pounding it into his head he should be king, its his right, and therefore he MUST take it by force.

Then again he coulda just been having a bad day that day...

Badbones777
30-09-2008, 19:44
As far as I can tell the elves have a system of electing their rulers, not going by lineage.

True, and a great many thought he SHOULD have been king anyway, the fact that he was "of the blood" only being a cherry on top (DE book, pg 8, The voyages of Malekith) At the time of the election for the High Kingship, Malekith was actually in a pretty strong position, any way you want to slice it- A fair degree of popular support, bloodline, AND undeniable competence. Indeed the only thing that stopped his claoim was he was felt to be a little too hot headed.
That said, I think as soon as his claim was denied in favour of Bel-Shanaar, the seeds were sown. I think the good grace he showed in bowing out was a facade and he was already coolly calculating his chance at revenge from that point on, the discovery of the crown merely pushed to the fore what he already felt.

Thommy H
30-09-2008, 20:09
I dont understand why Malekith seems to think that he should be phoenix king just because he is the son of Aenerion. Does he forget that he was only the third child of aenerion, not the first. Technically, both tyrion and teclis have a more direct claim to the phoenix throne than Malekith does.

Apparently, villains often have character flaws.

Arnizipal
30-09-2008, 22:14
As far as I can tell the elves have a system of electing their rulers, not going by lineage. Therefore Malekith should not have thought it was his right as son of Aenerion.
They didn't have that system back then.
See my post on that topic here (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2971390#post2971390).



However by the time of his claim several things had taken place. First he had spent a great deal of time with dwarves, to whom family lineage is everything. It is possible that his time there (specially after drinking and chatting with dwarves who would see him as heir apparent) influenced him.
That only happened after Malekith was denied the throne.



Also theres the influence of Khaine that Aenerion cursed his entire bloodline with. It could be argued that since he is a direct relation (i.e. child) that he was more directly affected by it than say Tyrion or Teclis.

In a way you could say the Malekith is Aenarions curse incarnate. He pretty much destroyed the Elven race as it existed in those days.

eleveninches
01-10-2008, 12:21
Also, he is meant to be a strong ruler, but he has been manipulated by his mother for over 5000 years

Condottiere
01-10-2008, 13:27
Maybe Malekith suffered from the Tai Lung syndrome - possibly everyone in his life told him that he was born to succeed his father, and when this goal was denied him, he considered all possible means to achieve it.

ChaosTicket
02-10-2008, 15:26
He was in most ways his fathers' son. He was a powerful warrior and leader. Of the other two children of Aenarion, the male travelled to the outer colonies of the Elves before disappearing and the female became Everqueen after her mother.

The High Elves are very democratic, to the point of impotence in some matters. They chose a scholar rather than a warrior to lead them after the wars against daemons but Malekith expected that his achievements would be rewarded, but they weren't.

Reinnon
02-10-2008, 16:11
Malekith had some good points, but the reason he wasn't selected was because he was more of a warrior and not a politician - which the ruling high elves were looking for. Malekith was deemed unsuitable for the crown because he was like his father - and his father was notable for madness in his later life.

Whether or not it was the rejection that threw malekith over the edge, or a combination of the circuit of iron and the inherant madness of his bloodline. But GW have never been too clear on why malekith turned evil - clearly they are waiting for a suitable BL book to answer the question fully.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
02-10-2008, 18:24
The fact of the matter is, people, that Malekith needs our help, not our scorn! Enough of this trying to kill him, he needs to go to rehab.

Arnizipal
03-10-2008, 11:28
Also, he is meant to be a strong ruler, but he has been manipulated by his mother for over 5000 years
That works both ways you know. Malekith uses Morathi to keep both the Cult of Khaine and the Cult of pleasure in check, for example.

ChaosTicket
03-10-2008, 14:43
That works both way you know. Malekith uses Moarthi to keep both the Cult of Khaine and the Cult of pleasure in check, for example.

The Cult of Khaine and the Cult of Pleasure are about to start a civil war while Malekith is fighting the High Elves after the Storm of Chaos.

Morathi bided her time until she could act and she did.

Arnizipal
03-10-2008, 15:21
Morathi bided her time until she could act and she did.Morathi is not actively plotting against Malekith. If she wanted him dead she could have killed him when he had just passed through the Flame of Assuryan. Which of course doesn't mean she's above manipulating her son.

Mannfred
04-10-2008, 14:29
I honestly hope u guys have actually read the New Dark Elves because u've all missed a big thing....look u've been agrueing either a) the Malekith is Aenarion's son and therefore is right for the thrown --- however some of u argue he is the third son and hence not best in line --- and how telics or tyrion are more fit.....okaii ur all off....

Now if u've read the book it says that - page 8 - "Aenarion named him Malekith and took him as his heir" meaning that should Aenarion pass away than Malekith would be the heir to throne....therefore he has way more right then Tyrion and Teclis + his two other previous children aren't Aenarion's heir therefore have no right to claim it....unless they decide to against Aenarion's wishes....

ChaosTicket
04-10-2008, 17:47
Aenarion was the first king so there were no rules of who would succeed him. Oh, and when Aenarion actually met Morathi she tempted him, he was also maddened soon after by the Sword of Khaine, so any acknowledgment of successors would be void.

Now anything about Malekith being appointed as Aenarion's successor is "New". I don't even think Aenarion knew of Malekith even being born yet, as he "died" in the War Against Chaos, that is when he also met Morathi and when Malekith was concieved, meaning he would have been an infant.

Arnizipal
04-10-2008, 18:51
I honestly hope u guys have actually read the New Dark Elves because u've all missed a big thing....look u've been agrueing either a) the Malekith is Aenarion's son and therefore is right for the thrown --- however some of u argue he is the third son and hence not best in line --- and how telics or tyrion are more fit.....okaii ur all off....

Now if u've read the book it says that - page 8 - "Aenarion named him Malekith and took him as his heir" meaning that should Aenarion pass away than Malekith would be the heir to throne....therefore he has way more right then Tyrion and Teclis + his two other previous children aren't Aenarion's heir therefore have no right to claim it....unless they decide to against Aenarion's wishes....
Malekith was actually his second son. Aenarion had a son and a daughter with his previous wife, the Everqueen Astarielle. When she was killed by the forces of Chaos both children went missing, and it's implied the son didn't re-appear for quite some time (if at all). Aenarion never saw him again during his life.

You make a good point however that Aenarion appointed Malekith as his heir.

BTW, could you please stop posting like you're text messaging? It's against the posting guidelines of this forum.

Aenarion was the first king so there were no rules of who would succeed him. Oh, and when Aenarion actually met Morathi she tempted him, he was also maddened soon after by the Sword of Khaine, so any acknowledgment of successors would be void.
Some sources say she tempted him, other say his love was true. Both are mentioned in the Dark Elf armybook so either one is valid.

Also, Aenarion was not insane. Bloodthirsty maybe but not raving mad like you seem to imply. He was never declared insane during his life or after his death, so any declaration he made would still be valid.


Now anything about Malekith being appointed as Aenarion's successor is "New". I don't even think Aenarion knew of Malekith even being born yet, as he "died" in the War Against Chaos, that is when he also met Morathi and when Malekith was concieved, meaning he would have been an infant.Malekith was 39 years old when Aenarion died. I think Morathi would have mentioned something to Aenarion in those 39 years ;)

Also, if he didn't know Malekith was born, how could he name him his successor?

BrainFireBob
05-10-2008, 00:18
I had missed that Aenarion's son disappeared into the colonies- is this implied anywhere as the origin of Orion of the Wood Elves?

Arnizipal
05-10-2008, 02:00
The Wood Elves came about after the War of the Beard. I doubt Aenarion's long lost son had anything to do with it.

Paviel
05-10-2008, 04:03
Morelion (i.e. Aenarion's firstborn son) did resurface long enough to get married and have at least one kid. After all, it was Morelion's great-grandson who inherited the Dragon Armour of Aenarion after Tethlis found it.

ChaosTicket
06-10-2008, 14:59
Actually that's possible, though only as likely as any other conjecture, after all is was the Treeman Oakheart that save the first son and daughter from rampaging dark elves during the War against Chaos, and the Wood Elves appeared after that in parts of the Old World, especially Athel Loren.

Who knows, he could have helped found the Wood Elves as a guerilla froce againt chaos. They do hunt down skaven and beastmen wherever they find them.

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Why would Morathi tell the king of Elves that he had an illegitamite son who could claim the throne when he died? When Aenarion was dead Malekith killed people who tried to denounce his as Aenarion's successor before he stepped though the flames of Asuryan.

Arnizipal
06-10-2008, 17:19
Actually that's possible, though only as likely as any other conjecture, after all is was the Treeman Oakheart that save the first son and daughter from rampaging dark elves during the War against Chaos, and the Wood Elves appeared after that in parts of the Old World, especially Athel Loren.
Like I said before, the Wood Elves only came about after the War of the Beard, long after the Sundering. The Wood Elf population is made up of High Elf colonists who stayed behind after the main High Elf forces retreated back to Ulthuan.



Why would Morathi tell the king of Elves that he had an illegitamite son who could claim the throne when he died? When Aenarion was dead Malekith killed people who tried to denounce his as Aenarion's successor before he stepped though the flames of Asuryan.Malekith wasn't an illegitimate son at all. :eyebrows:
Aenarion married Morathi after Astarielle's death, so any children he and Morathi had are full claimants to the throne (if it were hereditary).

isidril93
06-10-2008, 20:19
the daughter was made everqueen and the morelion 'retired' so obviously malekith thought that he was the one who should claim the throne. i guess he was just full of himself.

Paviel
07-10-2008, 01:51
Besides, if Morelion had gone to Athel Loren, why were his child(ren), grandchild(ren), and great-grandson in Ulthuan?

And the rest of his line, the last of whom are Tyrion and Teclis...

ChaosTicket
07-10-2008, 14:49
Whoever said that Morelion(is that his name?) stayed in the Elf Colonies?

The Wood Elves are Elves that rather than serve fealty to a king, fight an endless war against chaos and dark elves, would rather just live in homes and in peace, but will defen it with blade and bow.

The Main difference between wood and high elves is that high elves ultimately return to Ulthua, their homeland, while the wood elves defend whatever homeland they life on.
The Wood elves are essentially Exodite Eldar of Warhammer, and operate similarly.

If the Wandering Prince helped the Wood Elves become established as while the Ulthuan-born High elves were fighing chaos and later dwarfs isn't that much of a leap.

Malekith will never be accepted as ruler of Ulthua, mainly because he helped to all the Elves that went to Naggaroth into bloodthirsty killers that are only barely seperated from being Chaos Elves.

Concilliator
07-10-2008, 14:52
I dont really think they are seperate from chaos elves--- being as they openly have a cult of a choas god in power --- and its just because elves are who they are, they refine-- so I think malekith has made them into chaos elves or rather Morathi.

ChaosTicket
08-10-2008, 01:47
Nearly every race has some faction openly or in a closed way is worshipping a chaos god.

Dark Elves don't just worship khaine, but in his worst and most bloodthirsty aspect, even worse than Khorne. Khorne and Khaine are almost synonymous as warrior gods(and spelled similarly) however likely the crazed nutters that worship Khorne, the Dark Elves worship Khaine in a purely murderous fashion, as the Murder God.

The Cult of Pleasure was there before Dark Elves officially became Khaine-worshippers, but only recently became open as the Dark Elves largely blamed the weakness of the Slaanesh worshipping elves as the reaon why they lost during the Sundering.

The Dark Elves actually fight against Chaos as much as the other "disorder" races as daemons, chaos warriors, and maybe even kinds of beastsmen attack them regularly.

Arnizipal
08-10-2008, 12:11
Whoever said that Morelion(is that his name?) stayed in the Elf Colonies?

The theory was brought up in a post (http://warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2984706&postcount=19) on the previous page.



The Wood Elves are Elves that rather than serve fealty to a king, fight an endless war against chaos and dark elves, would rather just live in homes and in peace, but will defen it with blade and bow.

Except that they serve king Orion ;)

I don't think Dark Elves had anything to do with the Wood Elves staying behind (except indirectly when they attacked Ulthuan). I don't think Wood Elves look kindly upon Dark Elves or Chaos (their natural enemies are beastmen after all).



If the Wandering Prince helped the Wood Elves become established as while the Ulthuan-born High elves were fighing chaos and later dwarfs isn't that much of a leap.
Sure, nothing much is known of Morelion's life except that he disappeared into the West IIRC.



Malekith will never be accepted as ruler of Ulthua, mainly because he helped to all the Elves that went to Naggaroth into bloodthirsty killers that are only barely seperated from being Chaos Elves.
I think the bloody civil war and the the murder of a large part of the High Elf aristocracy will be judged a bit more heavily than the moral decay of an army of rebels ;)

Lucky for Malekith he isn't seeking acceptance as much as domination.


I dont really think they are seperate from chaos elves--- being as they openly have a cult of a choas god in power --- and its just because elves are who they are, they refine-- so I think malekith has made them into chaos elves or rather Morathi.
I think the Dark Elves would prefer to think they are using Chaos for their own ends instead of the other way around.


Dark Elves don't just worship khaine, but in his worst and most bloodthirsty aspect, even worse than Khorne. Khorne and Khaine are almost synonymous as warrior gods(and spelled similarly) however likely the crazed nutters that worship Khorne, the Dark Elves worship Khaine in a purely murderous fashion, as the Murder God. Since Khorne is the big daddy of the gods of war and bloodshed, I doubt Khaine is any worse.



The Cult of Pleasure was there before Dark Elves officially became Khaine-worshippers, but only recently became open as the Dark Elves largely blamed the weakness of the Slaanesh worshipping elves as the reaon why they lost during the Sundering.
Does this bit of background come from the Darkblade novels or just speculation?

ChaosTicket
08-10-2008, 15:19
The Cult of Pleasure founded by elves after the War against Chaos as a secret cult controlled by Morathi. After Malekith was burned by the Flames of Asuryan she nursed him back to health.

The Cult of Slaanesh joined the 'rebels" that believed that Malekith had hereditary claim to the throne. The continued in hidden after the sundering because the Slaanesh followers were officially banned and Khaine became the one and only god of the Newly Dubbed Druchii.

The Cult of Pleasure was hidden and Morathi who founded the Cult after being Captured by Slaanesh forces(and seducing Aenarion like a she-daemon) dispersed them and became a high ranking member of the Cult of Khaine. However during the Storm of Chaos the Cult of Pleasure rose up with Morathi as it's cult leader.

While Malekith was progressing in yet another campaign against the High Elves she gathered whatever Slaanesh followers and the Slaanesh Worshipping Hung as a force to attack the Lizardmen(all that you steal magic artifacts from Lizardmen?).

Paviel
08-10-2008, 18:19
Sure, nothing much is known of Morelion's life except that he disappeared into the West IIRC.

And that he had a great-grandson, which means that he must have had a grandchild and a child.

Here's the quote to prove it, from page 25 of the 5th edition High Elf army book:


On the Plain of Bones, the great skeleton-covered wasteland around the Altar of Khaine, Tethlis saw something glitter. Strangely drawn to the light he unearthed the Dragon Armour of Aenarion. Of the skeleton of Aenarion or Indraugnir there was nothing to be found. The armour he gifted to Auaralion, the great grandson of Morelion, Aenarion's son by Astarielle.

Arnizipal
08-10-2008, 19:31
The Cult of Pleasure founded by elves after the War against Chaos as a secret cult controlled by Morathi. After Malekith was burned by the Flames of Asuryan she nursed him back to health.

The Cult of Slaanesh joined the 'rebels" that believed that Malekith had hereditary claim to the throne. The continued in hidden after the sundering because the Slaanesh followers were officially banned and Khaine became the one and only god of the Newly Dubbed Druchii.

I know all of that. I was asking about the "blame the Cult of Pleasure for losing the war" thing.

Also, with the release of the new Dark Elf armybook, the Dark Elves worship multiple gods (mostly evil versions of High Elf gods).



The Cult of Pleasure was hidden and Morathi who founded the Cult after being Captured by Slaanesh forces(and seducing Aenarion like a she-daemon) Seducing like a she-deamon? Are you quoting an armybook here?


And that he had a great-grandson, which means that he must have had a grandchild and a child.
I would still file that under "not much is known" ;)

ChaosTicket
09-10-2008, 00:24
What you don't think that Morathi a 5000+ year old Elf Witch that worships Slaanesh wouldn't have been able to seduce the first Phoenix King like the She-daemons, the Daemonettes, when she was young?

The blaming of the Slaanesh followers was a scapegoat to excuse their failure, but also because Dark Elves generally despise the Chaos Gods as much as anyone else. They think they are above worshipping those gods, as technically the Dwarf and Elf Gods existed in the Warhammer world before he Chaos Gods.

Arnizipal
09-10-2008, 11:42
What you don't think that Morathi a 5000+ year old Elf Witch that worships Slaanesh wouldn't have been able to seduce the first Phoenix King like the She-daemons, the Daemonettes, when she was young?
I'm not saying she wouldn't have been able to, but you seem pretty adamant that this was the way it happened.
The Dark Elf armybook states that it could have been either true love or temptation by Morathi.
That is why I asked for your source of information. I don't own the High Elf armybook so perhaps it's stated in there that she seduced Aenarion.



The blaming of the Slaanesh followers was a scapegoat to excuse their failure, but also because Dark Elves generally despise the Chaos Gods as much as anyone else. They think they are above worshipping those gods, as technically the Dwarf and Elf Gods existed in the Warhammer world before he Chaos Gods.But is this blaming of Slaaneshi followers mentioned in any armybook or novel? That was my original question.

Mannfred
09-10-2008, 12:48
I read that someone mentioned that Khaine and Khorne as similar gods; and that is exactly true. If you read the "Sword of Khaine" Darkblade series it says that infact the sword of khaine isn't made by Elves however it was infact a chaos artifact wielded by a Chaos Lord of Khorne...

The servants of Khaine "true believers" chant "Blood for the Blood God" when they are about to fight and wear white to better show off the amount of blood they've shed from others...

In the old Hordes of Chaos novel it mentions that Khorne had a sword but dropped it into the mortal world...In again the Dark Blade series...It states that the sword of khaine came to the elves when Khaine fell asleep and dropped it...so yeah the two are very very similar...

eleveninches
10-10-2008, 13:43
/\
are you talking about darkblades sword or aenerions sword? They are both the sword of khaine, but both different items.

Arnizipal
10-10-2008, 14:19
According to the author of the Darkblade novels they are the same :cries:

eleveninches
10-10-2008, 14:30
Theres no way that darkblade is using aenerions sword. Its still in the temple fo khaine on the blighted isle

Arnizipal
10-10-2008, 17:27
Theres no way that darkblade is using aenerions sword. Its still in the temple fo khaine on the blighted isle
Of course it is. Saying anything else would be ludicrous.

Mike Lee thinks different (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90946&p=1693369), however. :eyebrows:

eleveninches
13-10-2008, 11:18
Stupid man :(

Count Demandred
13-10-2008, 14:47
I don't care what Mike Lee says, the Warpsword of Khaine and the Sword of Khaine are two different weapons.

One's capable of destroying armies & is duly stuck in the Temple of Khaine, guarded under constant vigil. Whilst the other is wielded by a venturing Warrior who's out to 'free' himself.

sideorder_of_chips
13-10-2008, 16:50
Stupid man

Thats quite harsh. 'Foolish mortal' would have been more contextual.