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Malorian
01-10-2008, 14:42
So the DE player on our group is starting to like assassins more and more (in the last game he used four!) and so I was wondering what people do to keep your heros alive.

If you have a champ in the unit to make a challenge he can always take it with his champ so that doesn't work.

I also thought of charging a throw away unit into them to draw them out early, then make sure to move your hero so that he doesn't match up with the assassin when they charge, but that only works for one turn and after a few game your opponent won't fall for this ploy.


What tactics have you folks come up with?

Emeraldw
01-10-2008, 15:06
atm I'm at a loss. My wood elves get devastated by my friends Assassins. He uses manbane plus hand of khaine so he get as at least 5 attacks that wound on a 3+. It hurts, badly. My drayds can't save that many attacks and don't have near enough offense to kill enough elves to offset this. ASF hurts, badly against me.

For me I think I'll have to really surround each unit (becaues multiple assassins with his setup are 135 each). Between Fear tests and 3+ units on all fronts I might be possible. Also if the assassin is already revealed, I can assualt the side he's not on and prevent him from getting attacks in. Also a treeman (if he lives) can kill that assassin the following turn since they have no armor and are only T3.

Baaltharus
01-10-2008, 15:07
Play Empire, take a Crystal ball so the assasins are revealed and then stomp on him with a charging knight unit, shoot him with a hochland long rifle or try to panic the unit hes with...theres quite a few ways of dealing with them for the Empire.

I played an army with 3 of them and since they cost quite a few points they were ultimately a pretty significant point sink.

him_15
01-10-2008, 15:28
Shoot 'em, nice and easy

Malorian
01-10-2008, 16:27
So other than some tricks with empire, the only thing is to make the unit panic. The thing is even if the unit panics from shooting their LD if pretty high so they are just going to rally.

(Plus I assume you'd be shooting up the unit anyway assassin or not.)

OldMaster
01-10-2008, 16:34
With the new WoC, there are two ways of which I've thought of in 2 seconds.
Either make your characters immense, so they could survive the attack
Or, the difficult, drag them out so they're visible, then wound him with the first spell of the Lore of Nurgle.

theunwantedbeing
01-10-2008, 16:39
Assasins are expensive.
If he has manbane, the rune of khaine and an extra hand weapon he'll cost 146points.

Defeating them with wood elves is merely a case of using something to shoot out the unit champions, charge in with the annoyance of netlings on a character and challenge.
Manbane is worthless vs t3 troops as the assasin is already st4.

Failing that, shoot his unit to bits...not exactly difficult with wood elves.
3+ to hit, 3+ to wound (short range crossbows) 6+ save for the elves.
That's a dead unit very fast.

Failing that, the amber pendant.
Assasin strikes last, so most likely, isnt getting to strike at all as he's going to get jumped.

Assasins are going to be in fairly large blocks of infantry, anyone sticking them in small unit's is just begging for the unit to get shot to bits and removed before the assasin appears. Netting you a lot of VP.

Remember assasins are only st4.
A 2+ re-rollable save is going to be virtually impenetrable to an assasin, as is a regular 1+ save, unless the assasin has killing blow of course, but then he's going to have to miss out on manbane or the rune of khaine, as he cannot have all 3.

You just have to accept that you simply aren't going to get to fight before him in 99.9% of encounters with them.
So look for another weakness.

Malorian
01-10-2008, 17:02
I'm used to seeing them have extra attacks and killing blow, so good armor saves doesn't quite cut it.

How about for orcs? The shooting isn't really there. What would you do with them? The only thing I can think of is to start going character light and instead get the extra kills from a chariot/pump wagon.

xragg
01-10-2008, 20:14
Running 4 assassins? Seems like that player has well over half his points in characters. You surely should be able to overcome that through just sheer numbers. Assassins are indeed nasty, but running that many just seems like you would be taking away from other aspects, like model count.

theunwantedbeing
01-10-2008, 20:22
You could always try using magic to deal with the units with assasins in.
Failing that, flank/rear charge the enemy units. The assasin is revealed in the front rank afterall, a rear charge ignores him completely.
hatred makes doubly sure that you'll be able to get that rear charge as his units are forced to persue your troops.
You just have to not lose all the models in a unit, which isnt overly tricky with t4 orcs.

Emeraldw
02-10-2008, 00:40
You could always try using magic to deal with the units with assasins in.
Failing that, flank/rear charge the enemy units. The assasin is revealed in the front rank afterall, a rear charge ignores him completely.
hatred makes doubly sure that you'll be able to get that rear charge as his units are forced to persue your troops.
You just have to not lose all the models in a unit, which isnt overly tricky with t4 orcs.

That is something I didn't know! I will definitely keep that in mind!

Pasch
02-10-2008, 09:13
You could always try using magic to deal with the units with assasins in.
Failing that, flank/rear charge the enemy units. The assasin is revealed in the front rank afterall, a rear charge ignores him completely.
hatred makes doubly sure that you'll be able to get that rear charge as his units are forced to persue your troops.
You just have to not lose all the models in a unit, which isnt overly tricky with t4 orcs.

Not true actually. I double checked this just now. The book says:

"Hidden Assassins may be revealed at the beginning of any of your turns, or at the start of any Close Combat phase. Declare that the unit contains an Assassin and place the model in the front rank."

That supports the claim but the book also then says:

"If the unit is in close combat, the Assassin displaces any rank-and-file model in the unit that is in contact with the enemy."

This leads me to believe that you only have to place the Assassin in the front rank if you reveal him outside of the Close Combat phase. If you reveal him at the start of the Close Combat phase you can replace any model in close combat with him (IE one on the side being flanked/rear charged).

Seems pretty clear cut to me.

logan054
02-10-2008, 11:20
With the new WoC, there are two ways of which I've thought of in 2 seconds.
Either make your characters immense, so they could survive the attack
Or, the difficult, drag them out so they're visible, then wound him with the first spell of the Lore of Nurgle.

you could just make the characters immune ti KB and poison

Tokamak
02-10-2008, 11:26
Using assasins against normal grunts is just plain pointless, they can't possibly put their high cost to effect.

However, I think having 4 assasins in a group of shades will simply be immense. They can simply walk away from the unit and each go their own way, in the middle of the field. Genious.

Gokamok
02-10-2008, 11:35
I think it's a viable strategy for most armies to charge the assassins unit with a solid block of basic infantry with HWS (though this probably is a bad idea if he's in ASF Black Guard:D). Sure, the assassin is going to get a bunch of attacks, but with only S4, he won't be causing too many wounds. I ran the numbers quick and came up with something like 2.5ish wounds in the first round assuming 6 attacks and KB against T3 troops with 4+ AS. Your unit of Swordsmen/Orcs/Saurus/Skeletons/whatever will probably lose combat by a few points, but with general and BSB nearby, it shouldn't be too much of a problem to stay in combat, which would allow you to flank the DE later on.

Shamfrit
02-10-2008, 12:51
Beat the **** out of them with a Keeper of Secrets or a Herald of Slaneesh.

Mannfred
02-10-2008, 13:49
Personally if i was up against a Dark Elf army i'd just accept the fact that each army has their dodgy trick and Dark Elves is the assassin...but yeah seriously it's just str4 i mean hey if u got armour on then he's screwed....the really worry is ur rank and file troops that will die horribly if the assassin gets 7 str4 attacks; re-rolls to hit and maybe re-roll all 1s yeah death..

First shoot the small units like shades and msu....and for the big units make sure it's not a flank and not a front charge and if it is....make sure u got armour and something that hits really really hard...i don't see why characters are such a worry...i mean the rules are ur opponant must reveal assassins before declaring challenges...it's not like o hey u declare a challenge cool i'll reveal my assassin...so yeah unless u got a gud character let the champion take the blows....

Axis
02-10-2008, 22:51
Monsters are pretty good against units with assassins.

Don't focus on the assassins, just focus on the units. Shooting is usually pretty good. Also with that much points in characters you should be able to get some front/flank charges. The assassin won't be able to offset that much combat res.

Lord Dan
03-10-2008, 04:08
This leads me to believe that you only have to place the Assassin in the front rank if you reveal him outside of the Close Combat phase. If you reveal him at the start of the Close Combat phase you can replace any model in close combat with him (IE one on the side being flanked/rear charged).

I have to disagree with you. I believe it is the first statement that actually over rides the implication of the second.

With the second statement you would assume: "Hey, I can place him in contact with the enemy!" Which is then specified by the first statement: "...in the front rank."

Lord Dan
03-10-2008, 04:40
Sorry for the double post, but I didn't want to simply erase my last post.

I re-read the section on Assassins and the second point is actually presented as an entirely seperate clause, meaning Pasch's statement is, indeed, correct.

Sorry about that. Having re-read that section, I do have a question:

When do you write down where your assassin is hidden? No mention of this is given, other than "placed at the start of the battle". I can only assume, as he has he scout rule, that you write down his location when you would normally place scouts. Thoughts?

Axis
04-10-2008, 00:11
When do you write down where your assassin is hidden? No mention of this is given, other than "placed at the start of the battle". I can only assume, as he has he scout rule, that you write down his location when you would normally place scouts. Thoughts?

I think he has the scout rule so he can go in a scouting unit of shades. I write down where my assassin is after deployment but i might be wrong.

Solonor
04-10-2008, 11:08
put a hero in a chariot and combine with a unit to charge the assassins unit

EndlessBug
04-10-2008, 16:18
hey, well IMO an assassin in a unit of BG is overkill, gaining only 2+d3 attacks seems rather pointless for 150 ish points!

Mostly I'd put an assassin in a unit of warriors, corsairs, shades or executioners (not that I take them much).

As to where he is, I believe they are bought as an upgrade for a unit so he will always be in one unit, as he isn't a hero he is placed with that unit when they are. In their army sheet it should specify where he actually is.

As for 4 assassins, roughly 600 points + heroes/lords, me\ns he's likely to be spending over 1000 points on heroes leading to a TINY army, one which those arrows of yours will mince up.

MonkeyLord
04-10-2008, 16:47
Well, a base assassin with two hand weapons and the rune of khaine is making 4 + d3 attacks, which isn't exactly trivial, no matter where he is. :) Especially if he's carrying Manbane.

But even so... 4 assassins? While that might be fun, that just doesn't seem very tactically sound. You've GOT to have some bulk to your army!

Lord Aislinn
05-10-2008, 08:07
Using assasins against normal grunts is just plain pointless, they can't possibly put their high cost to effect.

However, I think having 4 assasins in a group of shades will simply be immense. They can simply walk away from the unit and each go their own way, in the middle of the field. Genious.

a unit can only have one assassain in, Gav Thorpe isn't backwards. Contary to popular belief I'm sure, but no, not that thick.

So, assuming you have 4 shade squads, you need to be playing 2k, and you get no black guard or CoK.

not so genious IMO.

:)

w3rm
06-10-2008, 22:11
well i dont know much about DE assains but with skaven assains most people just buy warpstone stars instead of magic armer. with T4 he shouldnt be 2 hard 2 kill with say a dwarf with brace o psitols or if empire hocland long rifle or even reapetr handgun. bolt throwers r also nice :chrome:

Zot Zot
08-10-2008, 01:17
Swamp him with rank and file troops and win the battle of attrition.
Spend more points on troops and less on characters.
Magick and shoot the crap out of his forces.

Alrighty then?
19-10-2008, 21:19
Well what about having some expendable units you can just throw into units to try and flush out the assassins.

Axis
19-10-2008, 22:34
Well, a base assassin with two hand weapons and the rune of khaine is making 4 + d3 attacks, which isn't exactly trivial, no matter where he is. :) Especially if he's carrying Manbane.

I think his point is that since the assassin takes up the position of a BG it is only a real increase of 2+d3 attacks (each BG has 2). However, this is still a pretty big increase though the price is large. I do find assassins in ASF black guard to be too pricey. All you get is a few attacks extra. However, lately i've been leaving the BG on the shelves, i just got bored of them.

Lord Dan
20-10-2008, 03:22
I think his point is that since the assassin takes up the position of a BG it is only a real increase of 2+d3 attacks (each BG has 2). However, this is still a pretty big increase though the price is large. I do find assassins in ASF black guard to be too pricey. All you get is a few attacks extra. However, lately i've been leaving the BG on the shelves, i just got bored of them.

I wouldn't really discount those two attacks on the assumption that a RAF black guard model's attacks even come close to an assassin's ASF, poisoned, presumably killing blow attacks at WS9.

Vile Druchii
21-10-2008, 16:13
With Vampires, the Nightshroud and Cadavarous Cuirass are helpful as each of them negate an assassin's main combat ability (striking first for the shroud - therefore letting you wade in and kick some Assassin ass before he can even do anything! And killing blow/poisoned attacks for the Cuirass, negating the biggest threat to your character)

Bob the Butcher
21-10-2008, 21:45
I guess as mentioned challenge with a tough character.

Axis
22-10-2008, 23:24
I wouldn't really discount those two attacks on the assumption that a RAF black guard model's attacks even come close to an assassin's ASF, poisoned, presumably killing blow attacks at WS9.

The point is that BG don't need the assassin to win combat most of the time. So it may be more effective elsewhere.

EDIT: it is also worth noting that poison conflicts with killing blow. SO you might want a gift of khaine poison

Lord Dan
22-10-2008, 23:26
I completely agree, I just don't think it's fair to imply that they would be "just as good" without one.