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Father Gabe
01-10-2008, 23:37
Okay heres the story. We have a campaign and a guy is playing High Elves. He takes the minimum core choices then takes Phoenix Guard in about a 30 model block. The problem that we are having is the ward save issue. Phoenix Guard get the heavy armor save and the ward save. Dont quote me

Do magical attacks from models with the forest spirit rule or daemons from Daemons of Chaos ignore ward saves? I know that forest spirits and daemons dont get their saves versus magical attacks but does that hold true for their attacks?

theunwantedbeing
01-10-2008, 23:41
Only the forest spirit ward save is negated by magical attacks, due to a special rule they have.

Daemons now get their ward saves against magical attacks.
Normal ward saves are not negated by magical attacks, unless there is some special rule accompanything them (like malekiths 2+ ward save).

Father Gabe
01-10-2008, 23:49
I figured those would be the answers and didnt rule against him. However, I was not aware that daemons got their ward saves still. I didnt see it in the army book or faq. I will have to go back and read them unless you have a reference for me.

Harwammer
02-10-2008, 00:22
Its not going to say anything about losing ward save in the daemon book because its not a rule anymore. They have a 5+ ward save. simple as.

TheWarSmith
02-10-2008, 02:42
Its not going to say anything about losing ward save in the daemon book because its not a rule anymore. They have a 5+ ward save. simple as.

Exactly. Army books rarely ever mention their predecessors. the daemon ward is just a regular ol' ward save. Unless it mentions otherwise specially in the rules for that unit(like tree spirit), then it works normally.

Lord Dan
02-10-2008, 03:40
"You'll note we made Daemons a lot better this time around by making their 5+ ward save non-negotiable." ;)

The Red Scourge
02-10-2008, 05:51
Dont quote me

Ohh.. Ooops, sorreeh! ;)

-
What everybody else says is quite true, only forest spirits have a false ward save here in 7th wonder if that will change :)

Father Gabe
02-10-2008, 16:13
I apologize. The "Dont quote me" part of my original post was the beginning of another thought on the matter that I forgot to type out. Well that information will be good to know about the ward saves. I didnt want to penalize the guy in the campaign/tournament for doing that without getting some outside consultation.

Chicago Slim
05-10-2008, 02:56
Decent call on your part, since he appears to have been in the right...

Phoenix Guard are a little tough, to be sure-- but if you can put some S5 on them, they'll drop fast enough.

If that's not an option, you could definitely mug them with hordes: put a big mob into their flank, and they're pretty well done for: because Phoenix Guard don't have that much offensive power-- good WS and S4, with 1 attack per model-- they're beatable by static CR (if you can get 3 ranks, a flank, numbers and a banner against them, assuming they have a banner, then they're likely to lose by 4 or 5!)

RossS
05-10-2008, 03:20
If you shoot 'em, they'll go down easy enough. A 5+ wardsave is nice, but it won't stand up to concerted, massed attacks. A few volleys from a unit of crossbows, or by a unit of outriders will do wonders. After you've given them what for, you can finish them off with a nice thundering cavalry charge.

I have nothing but contempt for Phoenix Guard.

Lord Dan
05-10-2008, 04:50
Actually it's a 4+ ward save, not a 5+. Let your contempt abound.

RossS
05-10-2008, 07:00
Sorry, 4+. Doesn't change the facts that they they wilt before anything that can churn out a lot of attacks, and that they are fun to kill.

Chicago Slim
06-10-2008, 01:04
Gunlines will shred Phoenix Guard pretty well, what with the 3+ wounding, and no armor (but a 4+ ward), so expect 1/3 of hits to wound, or about 2 wounds per 10-pack of Thunderers (fewer for Empire Handgunners, of course), depending on range.

On the other hand, if there are 30 of them (as in the original post), then a serious unit of them WILL get through that... and if you're shooting arrows at them (I know, who shoots S3 arrows, really?) then it's 1/6 of hits to wound-- so that's pretty hard to pull off.

Same logic for anything throwing lots of S3 attacks, of course. *shrug* Phoenix Guard are a decent tar-pit.

RossS
06-10-2008, 08:11
How much does a unit of 30 cost? I imagine that they aren't cheap.

Chicago Slim
06-10-2008, 11:37
15 ppm. So, a block of 30 is, indeed, expensive (450 + command, which could easily run another 100 points, depending on magic banners and magic items for the champion), so they're sort of "eggs in one basket" in anything under 3000 points-- but, I'm really just following the original poster's description...

Gorbad Ironclaw
06-10-2008, 15:04
But it's a basket with a 5+ save, 4+ ward, ranks, banner, possibly outnumber, ASF and it's likely to be ItP as well. It's not really as fragile as all that.

Not that I've seen anyone run 30, but 20 is a very common bunker unit.

Chicago Slim
06-10-2008, 18:01
We're clearly verging into tactics, not rules, but I'm okay with that, so long as we're brief...

Why would you bother making this unit ItP? It already causes (and thus ignores) Fear, and it's not going to be outnumbered by Terror-causers; it may suffer Panic, but (a) it's not trivial to generate panic tests on (because of the large size and relative difficulty to kill, it'd take a LOT of shooting to do 25% casualties) and (b) at a base Ld of 9, it makes 5-out-of-6 panic tests.


For the record, I've run 30 PGs in one unit (actually, 28, plus a mounted hero, to be correct about it), but only once. They were a significant proportion (1/5) of my 3000 point army, but they did a fine job of marching up the center of the field, which is what I wanted them to do. They didn't draw too much shooting, once my opponent recognized that he wasn't going to reduce them by shooting, to the point where they couldn't at least go toe-to-toe with his infantry; instead, he girded himself, took the charge with his infantry, lost by one (outnumber-- neither of us caused any unsaved wounds) and broke to my Fear.

I've only run this unit once, because (a) it's pretty clear that it does that one thing well, which is kind of boring and (b) the game was a draw, because the enemy infantry that I crush was only 350 points, to my 600 points-- and pulling off this trick left me exposed elsewhere on the field...