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View Full Version : Another is this legal thread.



Orcboy_Phil
02-10-2008, 01:34
Down at my local gaming club there has been a deate lately about this scenario.

The crew of a Screaming Skull catapult leave there warmachine in the movement phase.
In the magic phase as they are seperate units and are thus able to be rasied a lich priest raises up new crew for the catapult and a new catapult for the now war machine less crew.
Whislt we can't find anything in the rules preventing this I can't see how this can be a legal stragy. So far we've stopped the tomb king player from doing this by saying he can as long as he has the models which we know he doesn't despite being hypocrites and allowing others to use stand in's. (I don't because I legitimialy own all the models I represent in my army.)

Lord Dan
02-10-2008, 01:40
Warmachine crew can't opt to leave their warmachine in the movement phase (hence why they can't charge).

Even if there weren't rules preventing this, I would ban it simply based on stupidity.

Orcboy_Phil
02-10-2008, 01:54
Pg 86 BRB "The entire crew may deliberatly abandon a war machine, perhaps in order to crew another."

But yeah its bloody silly. I hope theres a legal way to stop it.

SolarHammer
02-10-2008, 01:59
Well the FAQ that allows it only says that the Incantation of Summoning can be used to bring back catapults from crew and crew from catapults if they are lost.

Definitely enough to go on in those two words to prevent it from happening as:
a.) By summoning a new one, you aren't bringing anything back
b.) You haven't lost the crew or the catapult simply by separating them

Hope that helps.

Link here:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/news/errata/assets/wh/tombkings.pdf

starlight
02-10-2008, 02:07
I'll second that and say that the newly raised crew form additional members of the existing crew, not a separate new crew.

DeathlessDraich
02-10-2008, 10:34
Down at my local gaming club there has been a deate lately about this scenario.

The crew of a Screaming Skull catapult leave there warmachine in the movement phase.
In the magic phase as they are seperate units and are thus able to be rasied a lich priest raises up new crew for the catapult and a new catapult for the now war machine less crew.
Whislt we can't find anything in the rules preventing this I can't see how this can be a legal stragy. So far we've stopped the tomb king player from doing this by saying he can as long as he has the models which we know he doesn't despite being hypocrites and allowing others to use stand in's. (I don't because I legitimialy own all the models I represent in my army.)

1) If the crew is separated from the warmachine, they are no longer regarded as a warmachine and function as a normal unit of skirmishers - pg 86.

2) Therefore in the *interim period* between leaving a warmachine and re-crewing another, the skeletons are a unit of skirmishing skeletons and *not* a unit of Screaming skullers.

3) When Djedra Summoning is cast on such a unit it can only increase the number of skeletons and *not* form a new Screaming Skull unit.
This is the same as trying to summon steeds for these Skellies or worse chariots for these skellies to make them form units of Horsemen or Chariots!!

4) This bit is entirely conjecture.
If a large number of these skirmishing skellies then join an abandoned Screaming skull, then it will be reasonable to assume only 3 skellies can join the machine while the extra skellies still form a unit of skirmishing skellies.

BEEGfrog
02-10-2008, 12:54
1) If the crew is separated from the warmachine, they are no longer regarded as a warmachine and function as a normal unit of skirmishers - pg 86.

2) Therefore in the *interim period* between leaving a warmachine and re-crewing another, the skeletons are a unit of skirmishing skeletons and *not* a unit of Screaming skullers.

3) When Djedra Summoning is cast on such a unit it can only increase the number of skeletons and *not* form a new Screaming Skull unit.
This is the same as trying to summon steeds for these Skellies or worse chariots for these skellies to make them form units of Horsemen or Chariots!!

4) This bit is entirely conjecture.
If a large number of these skirmishing skellies then join an abandoned Screaming skull, then it will be reasonable to assume only 3 skellies can join the machine while the extra skellies still form a unit of skirmishing skellies.
I haven't got the TK book so I don't know the details of Djedra Summoning but the TK FAQ is clear that you can regenerate the catapult if you have the crew or the crew if you have the catapult. The whole rule you quoted on pg 86 is fairly clear that their skirmishing nature disappears when they recrew.

Therefore:
1) The crew only count as skirmishers while more than 1" from a crewable warmachine.
2) The crew always remain crew but count as skirmishers while away from the war machine
3) The FAQ is clear a summoning (except one the specifically included in its description that it cannot raise war machines) will raise a skull catapult at the location of the crew if he catapult was destroyed.
4) The crew is a crew and like any other unit is not allowed to be separated except under specific special rules. The entire crew becomes crew of the new catapult.
5) Any limits on raising beyond the original size of a unit remain, even when skirmishing it remains a skirmishing unit of crew, not a different unit so its standard size of 3 (plus catapult) remains

DeathlessDraich
02-10-2008, 14:13
Most pts are valid and not different from mine in principle.

The FAQ does state that the Catapult machine itself can be summoned if the crew is *lost*. As someone else stated above, losing (which I'm sure you'll agree means slain in this case) the whole crew does not occur when they have voluntarily or forcibly left.

EDIT: The original size of 'skirmishing ex-crewmen skellies' is not specified since they are not an army list unit.
It is reasonable to assume that they have to be 3 but this is still an assumption.

BEEGfrog
02-10-2008, 14:35
Most pts are valid and not different from mine in principle.

The FAQ does state that the Catapult machine itself can be summoned if the crew is *lost*. As someone else stated above, losing (which I'm sure you'll agree means slain in this case) the whole crew does not occur when they have voluntarily or forcibly left.

EDIT: The original size of 'skirmishing ex-crewmen skellies' is not specified since they are not an army list unit.
It is reasonable to assume that they have to be 3 but this is still an assumption.

The link between crew and catapult is not lost until they crew another war machine and they never become another unit on the army list despite counting as skirmishers.
As I am not aware of rules to permit undead war machine crews to be raised above their original size, the summoned wound after the 3rd crewman is re-raised has to add to the catapult or be lost.

DeathlessDraich
02-10-2008, 15:30
No, the rules state specifically they are a unit.

There is at least 1 other instance where a unit is formed but is not listed in the army book's army list.

BEEGfrog
02-10-2008, 16:49
No, the rules state specifically they are a unit.

There is at least 1 other instance where a unit is formed but is not listed in the army book's army list.

Sorry, I didn't state myself clearly: they don't become a different entry from the army list, i.e. they don't pick up any new abilities, limits or characteristics from other units in the army.

They pick up the ability to skirmish from BRB pg86 which also says their original size of the unit is the size of the crew and that they are "treated as" not "becomes" a skirmishing unit.

Bob the Butcher
03-10-2008, 23:33
Ye TK's can only raise troops back to their starting number and can't raise new troops like the VC's can.

Jack of Blades
04-10-2008, 00:20
You'd better be prepared for Smackalot's Incantation of Bitchslap if you tried it on anyone that isn't a drone...