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LKHERO
02-10-2008, 06:31
So I was just brainstorming today and I came up with a cheese list with VC that consisted 1 big block of Blood Knights and Vampires:


2250

HERO:
Vampire Lord (Dread Knight, Red Fury, Supernatural Horror, Dread Lance, Cuirass, Cursed Book) = 400
Vampire (Dread Knight, Beguile, Balefire Spike, Book of Arkan) = 195
Vampire (Dread Knight, Beguile, BSB, Banner of Drakenhof) = 300

CORE:
10x Ghouls = 80
10x Ghouls = 80
10x Ghouls = 80
10x Dire Wolves (these guys shield the Knights) = 80

SPECIAL:
10x Black Knights (Skeletal Barding) = 280

RARE:
9x Blood Knights (FC, Banner of Strigos) = 580
1x Vargulf = 175

The point of the list is to take min core Ghouls and just march them up the field, shield your Blood Knights with your Dire Wolves and push everything up on the table. Charge on Turn #2 and kill everything!

The 3 Vampires goes in the unit of Blood Knights for a 6x2 formation. This unit costs more than half of your army but has 2+ armor Knights with 4+ regen, Hatred towards all enemies and causes Terror. On the charge, the front rank has 20 WS5+ S7 re-rollable attacks. The Vampire Lord has 4 attacks that auto hit at WS7, S7, and if he makes his 4 wounds, he makes 4 more attacks that auto-hit at S7. He alone can make 8 wounds by himself!

That's my idea of a fun all your eggs in 1 basket.. what is yours? Please provide a list and explanation!

Lord Dan
02-10-2008, 06:58
The Blood Drinker on your lord would make the unit all but unkillable, as he brings back a knight for every model he kills.

If I were trying to make my opponent throw something at me, I would take a giant block of Grave Guard instead.

grumbaki
02-10-2008, 07:21
http://www.bugmansbrewery.com/index.php?showtopic=22970&hl=\big+block

Take a look, the dwarven version of all your eggs in one basket.

bork da basher
02-10-2008, 08:03
its a big risk to take and id much prefer two units of 5 than one unit of 10. id also recomend a lord with bloodrinker to lead them. it will however be the target of every shooting unit, magic missile or artillery piece on the table and chances are it wont be as resiliant as you think. the wigh cavalry will provide a good distraction but the primary target is the bloodknights. if i played against this with either of my armies id be quite pleased as it provides me with two units to kill to win the game. the rest are chaff and unimportant really but if you lost either of the cavalry units you'd proberly loose the game.

LKHERO
02-10-2008, 08:13
The Blood Drinker looks like a good idea then :)

DarkRush21
03-10-2008, 17:01
In a High Elf army list, I once took two units of 10 archers, two mages(With Lore of Beasts), a Prince with the Star Lance, a Noble carrying the Battle Banner, and nothing else but Silver Helms in a 2.25K game. I was facing a Brettonian army, and my logic was thus - I'll charge him, first turn. He'll pray, I'll get turn one, and I'll charge his entire front line at once. He lined up on his side, I lined everything up in one rank, save 2 Silver Helms who got displaced for my heroes. I proceed 16 inches across the battlefield, and start the magic phase. First cast of "The Wolf Howls" (I had it on both), I miscast, and the magic phase ends. I cry, and proceed to get curbstomped. All in all, a very entertaining game, but I still wonder how it would have gone had I landed the charge.

Harwammer
03-10-2008, 19:55
Don't you think he would have dispelled wolf hunts even if you hadn't miscast?

I mean he probably had a scroll or something in his sleeve :P

DarkRush21
03-10-2008, 22:46
Nah, this was way back when, before we really knew how to play the game fully. Neither of us knew the value of a scroll caddy at the time!

Bob the Butcher
03-10-2008, 23:37
All eggs in 1 basket = asking to be flanked and killed.

Being an Ogre player I would bait and flee from the knights to set up flank charges.

him_15
04-10-2008, 00:57
Take a unit with 40+ Grave Guard and put Vlad and a Wight king with the drakenholf banner in, that's a big big basket.

txamil
04-10-2008, 01:12
With the Oath stone that would probably work you know.

Kalec
04-10-2008, 01:40
The blood knights would do better with the banner of the blood keep then the strigos banner, because anything they hit is dead anyway.

MarcoPollo
05-10-2008, 04:36
You gotta be careful with those "baskets". Usually there are things in the opponents army that can stall or trap a huge unit like this for a while. And if you have a unit that costs over half your points waiting around, you are wasting time.

These strategies work well, but horses are prone to poor lateral movement, and can be caught up in woods or obstructed by terrain. As long as you can anticipate these events, you will be fine.

Also, when you deploy, you can suck you opponent in by placing your characters outside the knights and move them into the unit when you like. Or move them out of the unit when you like.

Citizen
05-10-2008, 09:46
I'd get as much as I could on the rear and flank of that unit. And definately challenge you (can unit champions declare charges? I know they can accept them)

But chances are I wouldn't bother playing you unless I'd written a list specifically to crack that unit, it would be far too difficult for myself, and far too easy for you. Which I don't think is a fun game for either player.

TeddyC
05-10-2008, 10:47
reminds of the Khorne Chosen knights list.

Stupid list, big unit of chosen knights, lord of steed, 2 smaller units of knights to ake up min numbers.

I only ever scraped a draw using a dwarf gunline. not played the guy since.

Id take it to a tourney but i reckon youd quickly become as unpopular as the chosen knights guy did at our place

OldMaster
05-10-2008, 11:50
You have the killing power, use it : )

Citizen, unit champions can't declare challenges, unless you play for Warriors of Chaos.


A Chaosy all-eggs-in-one-basket? Well, like TeddyC mentioned, a big block of Chosen knights. Either that, or some Chosen with a Lord, Exalted BSB and another Exalted. Give one of then the Helm of Many Eyes and your opponent is dead meat.
I also thought of a small unit of 6 Knights with a frontage of... 3 Juggers :)

TeddyC
05-10-2008, 15:26
Oh yea, should be mentioned that all the Khorne knights are frenzied so not much control but OH so many powerful attacks

Chicago Slim
05-10-2008, 18:22
On the rules issue: for the purposes of challenges, unit champions count as characters (I don't have page numbers handy, but it's in the section which lists the four ways in which Champions behave like Characters; a search of Warseer should also turn up a discussion from early 2008 about this).


On the tactical side, my biggest concern with this particular eggs-in-one-basket is that it's VERY easy to avoid that basket: you have a lot of mobility, true, but you're also frenzied, which means that a single fast cavalry unit has a reasonable expectation of literally taking you out of the entire game (set up so you have no other charge targets on turn 2; flee, rally and repeat; on turn 4, you either catch that unit, or run it off the board. Turn 5, you turn around to face the rest of the action. Turn 6, you start moving back towards that action...)

Trust me, I've done exactly this to frenzied Chosen Khorne Knights.

Generally, any time I see something unbeatable across the table, I set to work on making sure that it has minimal effect on the game (don't oppose strength with strength...) In this case, that job is pretty easy, because of the frenzy.

Lord Dan
05-10-2008, 18:50
In this case it's more points denial than true "all eggs in one basket". He has so many points soaked up in that one unit that you can't possibly win the game without paying attention to it.

bork da basher
05-10-2008, 21:31
Oh yea, should be mentioned that all the Khorne knights are frenzied so not much control but OH so many powerful attacks

armies like this are so utterly hit or miss i dont see much point in them. frenzy on everything is the cunning generals dream come true especially massively expensive units like khorne knights. a simple "bait n flee" will draw them in for a deadly flank charge which will likely result in a fleeing or run down unit of knights.

you end up taking unit after unit of hounds just to try and prevent this from happening and it all becomes a bit daft really.

i played a similar sort of army a few years ago with skaven and managed to kill a unit of khorne knights with a lord in it with a unit of skavenslaves who got a flank charge in and miraculously killed one of the knights, then proceeded to run it down. 40pts of mangy skaven taking down roughly 700pts of godblessed bloodcrazed butchers simply because i baited the unit with a pair of globadiers (20pts lol) so 60pts of skaven for over 10 times their points in chaos elite cavalry. frenzy IMO is such a huge risk that i almost never take a unit with it, it always always gets exploited and i end up loosing the unit because im forced into a dodgy situation where i cant win.

Jack of Blades
05-10-2008, 21:41
1. The short term memory loss guy.

He is the most prolific contributor to the forums... not in terms of new ideas, but in terms of new threads. After reading about 7 different threads talking about Luna's new build on the same page, he will one day wake up, have a great idea and start a new thread:


Example:

'NEW BUILD FOR LUNA.

I had this idea while playing with my mates the other day, I know it's not very common for luna not to cast lucent beams, but it works very well in game! Here is my skill build and item build...'

and there-in follows a description which has been rehashed over and over again.

That's all...

VC Doke
06-10-2008, 02:05
On the rules issue: for the purposes of challenges, unit champions count as characters (I don't have page numbers handy, but it's in the section which lists the four ways in which Champions behave like Characters; a search of Warseer should also turn up a discussion from early 2008 about this).


On the tactical side, my biggest concern with this particular eggs-in-one-basket is that it's VERY easy to avoid that basket: you have a lot of mobility, true, but you're also frenzied, which means that a single fast cavalry unit has a reasonable expectation of literally taking you out of the entire game (set up so you have no other charge targets on turn 2; flee, rally and repeat; on turn 4, you either catch that unit, or run it off the board. Turn 5, you turn around to face the rest of the action. Turn 6, you start moving back towards that action...)

Trust me, I've done exactly this to frenzied Chosen Khorne Knights.

Generally, any time I see something unbeatable across the table, I set to work on making sure that it has minimal effect on the game (don't oppose strength with strength...) In this case, that job is pretty easy, because of the frenzy.


I concur. By putting all of your strength on one part of the table you neglect the rest of your army AND theirs. If the rest of your army gets wiped out and your big unit loses half of its models, are you SURE that you're going to make up the points by what you've killed?

I'd say usually 'yes', but I wouldn't count it on with such an imbalanced list. Play a few games and let us know how you did.

Chicago Slim
06-10-2008, 11:43
When my opponents bring a big, red-hot unit, I seldom cause it to lose half its models. In fact, it seldom loses any models: I assign two small units to the forlorn hope ("You men, go tie up that big mob, and buy us some time. Good luck, and we'll see you on the other side.") and proceed to ignore the behemoth thereafter, while taking advantage of the numerical superiority created elsewhere on the field...

Sometimes, it fails. Sometimes, I effectively pin down the big thing, but fail to produce elsewhere. But my experience, for years now, is that if I throw everything I've got at, say, that block of 30 Ironbreakers with the Dwarven King in it, then I'm definitely going to lose this game.

Da GoBBo
06-10-2008, 12:04
The 3 Vampires goes in the unit of Blood Knights for a 6x2 formation. This unit costs more than half of your army but has 2+ armor Knights with 4+ regen, Hatred towards all enemies and causes Terror. On the charge, the front rank has 20 WS5+ S7 re-rollable attacks. The Vampire Lord has 4 attacks that auto hit at WS7, S7, and if he makes his 4 wounds, he makes 4 more attacks that auto-hit at S7. He alone can make 8 wounds by himself!

That's my idea of a fun all your eggs in 1 basket.. what is yours? Please provide a list and explanation!

Why put all those characters in your kickass cavalry unit? Now you have 6 very expensive knights doin nothing. I think this army would be a lot more scary if ye put the characters in your cheaper deathknight unit, or split them up. Ok, it's not a one basket thing anymore, but it is a two basket thing.

w3rm
07-10-2008, 01:25
i once played a dwarf player who took 52 hand gunners in one unit. before the game he played dirty and said no terrain i wanna quick battle. i shoulda know better with a dwarf army

Caine Mangakahia
07-10-2008, 02:56
So I was just brainstorming today and I came up with a cheese list with VC that consisted 1 big block of Blood Knights and Vampires:



The point of the list is to take min core Ghouls and just march them up the field, shield your Blood Knights with your Dire Wolves and push everything up on the table. Charge on Turn #2 and kill everything!

The 3 Vampires goes in the unit of Blood Knights for a 6x2 formation. This unit costs more than half of your army but has 2+ armor Knights with 4+ regen, Hatred towards all enemies and causes Terror. On the charge, the front rank has 20 WS5+ S7 re-rollable attacks. The Vampire Lord has 4 attacks that auto hit at WS7, S7, and if he makes his 4 wounds, he makes 4 more attacks that auto-hit at S7. He alone can make 8 wounds by himself!

That's my idea of a fun all your eggs in 1 basket.. what is yours? Please provide a list and explanation!

Personally I think fell bats make a better shielding unit , as flying skirmishers they can possibly charge another unit in the same turn , unlike DW who would likely have to be involved in the same combat as your knights (thus bringing down your combat potential). They are also harder to kill with shooting.

merkado
07-10-2008, 03:31
I once made a eggs in 1 basket list. It included=
-Alith Anar
-Prince with GW, armor of caledor, vambraces of defence, amulet of light
-Prince with blade of leaping gold, enchanted shield, guardian phoenix
-Korhil
-Caradryan
-Noble with GW, sacred incience, dragonscale shield
-BSB with Banner of World Dragon
-35 phoenix guard (full command) with gem of courage and lion standard

Here we have a fear causing, -2 to enemy shooting, immune to magic, immune to fear and terror, stubborn, ASF Death Star!!!!
...but it was destroyed by the Dark Elf improvised equivalent, with Crone Helleborn, BSB with ASF banner, 2 assasins, noble (or 2?) and a bunch of Black Guard.

I lost faith in the Eggs in 1 basket that day.

EvC
07-10-2008, 11:31
I played a good eggs in one basket the other day. Massive unit of Cold One Knights with BSB and Malus Darkblade. No doubt loads of magic items in there too. My Butcher said, "take a panic test", Malus said "okies", I said "and it's at -1", and he said "byebye" and ran off the table with his mates. Victory on turn 2.

vinny t
07-10-2008, 13:47
Cold one knights are immune to psychology, I think.

EndlessBug
07-10-2008, 14:15
Well tbh all eggs in one basket armies aren't all that great. Mostly the units are about half the army, simple tactic is, let 1 or 2 of your units keep that one unit occupied and focus on slaughtering the very small rest of their army with the rest of yours. Sure faster all eggs in one are better but in the case of blood knights, lead em around with 2 guys as they're frenzied, meaning your 2 fast cav units worth 200 points total are occupying their 1000 points unit, giving you 1800 against their 1000 point army, easy to wipe the floor against.

As to the dwarf list, pieve of cake, do exactly the same as above but just completely ignore the unit, it can't shoot or cast magic so you have no need to destroy it. If I were the ogre i'd have slaughtered the rest of the dwarf army then just avoided the big dwarf unit with my superior movement claimed all table quarters and won on VPs easily.

Now all eggs in 2 baskets are good, 2 units worth 500-600 each works much better, you can't avoid both and they're darn hard to kill.

p.s. It's Black Guard that are ItP, not CoK... but now I have my doubts.

EvC
07-10-2008, 14:25
Cold one knights are immune to psychology, I think.

Let me get this straight: someone posts something that clearly shows that Cold One Knights are not immune to psychology. Your instant reaction is to just guess that the poster AND his opponent have somehow both managed to get this rule wrong, and to tell them so, even though you don't actually know whether or not what you're saying is correct.

No, Cold One Knights are certainly not immune to psychology.

Lord Dan
07-10-2008, 20:18
Let me get this straight: someone posts something that clearly shows that Cold One Knights are not immune to psychology. Your instant reaction is to just guess that the poster AND his opponent have somehow both managed to get this rule wrong, and to tell them so, even though you don't actually know whether or not what you're saying is correct.

No, Cold One Knights are certainly not immune to psychology.

Wow. I think the lad got the point. ;)

No, CoK are not immune to psychology.

Nedar
09-10-2008, 04:27
Citizen, unit champions can't declare challenges, unless you play for Warriors of Chaos.


A champion most certainly can issue a challenge...please don't pass your opinions as rules :)

SolarHammer
09-10-2008, 04:50
Citizen, unit champions can't declare challenges, unless you play for Warriors of Chaos.

Totally wrong. 100% incorrect.


Champions can accept and issue challenges (and, of course, refuse them!).
Rulebook p.81

gerrymander61
09-10-2008, 04:57
Eggs-in-one-basket are fun to think of and make combinations for but not so much fun to play as or against. Lol, the funniest one I ever played was a DE eggs-in-a-basket army. It failed so hard, i charged him with a unit of slaves, it got wrecked, fled, and the DE were forced to pursue into a trap because of hatred. It was hilarious. DE eggs-in-one-basket armies fail so hard becasue of hatred...