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View Full Version : Is GW honestly trying to sink Specialist Games?



Dominus_Serui
03-10-2008, 00:23
So...I'm browsing the webstore to see the damage of the price rise...and...I come across....the Warlord Titan...

Ok twenty quid was an acceptable price, it was a BIG lump of metal, but pushing it up by 50% to thirty quid is asking a LITTLE too much from my wallet - and I see the Space Marine Landing Craft is 35 quid....someone tell me I'm having a horrible nightmare and some idiot GW techmonkey got it wrong?

Rhamag
03-10-2008, 00:32
The Ork Mega-Gargant has gone up by the same amount. Looks like it's true.

What is funny is that the Forgeworld Warhounds are now only £3 more than the regular GW ones, and the FW Reaver is actually £2 LESS than the GW model, and nicer. Crazy times...

EDIT: Post no. 666!

Chaos and Evil
04-10-2008, 20:06
....someone tell me I'm having a horrible nightmare and some idiot GW techmonkey got it wrong?

What's funny is the same guys are charging £50 for five metal horsemen (Blood Knights) in Warhammer Fantasy.


What is funny is that the Forgeworld Warhounds are now only £3 more than the regular GW ones, and the FW Reaver is actually £2 LESS than the GW model, and nicer. Crazy times...

You should note that the FW Warhounds are actually 2-to-a-pack, therefore each Warhound costs £6 LESS if you buy it from Forgeworld.

Dominus_Serui
04-10-2008, 21:04
That be exactly why I'm getting my Packs from Forgeworld...I blame you for writing the Titan Legion list and getting me into playing Epic in the first place.

(Hung out around a certain GW gaming night this Summer.)

Darkson
08-11-2008, 00:32
I believe the answer for the title question is a resounding YES for all SG games.

Dwarf Supreme
12-11-2008, 14:29
I don't know if GW is purposely trying to kill SG, but that might be the end result anyway. It's precisely because of the prices that have bought none of the current Epic minis.

LeeHarvey
12-11-2008, 14:36
I think that while they might not be trying to kill specialist games directly, their price changes will take care of that for them. I know I don't want to pay their prices, that's a lot of money to spend for a little chunk of metal. As far as I'm concerned, the price changes across all their gaming systems has driven me to purchase all my models through independant retailers offering discounts.

McMullet
12-11-2008, 15:23
I think GW's prices for Epic, at least, are pretty irrelevant. You can routinely get Epic stuff in great condition on eBay at half retail price. The lack of support from a rules perspective means the game is (sadly) less popular a lot of people are selling stuff off, so the marketplace is flooded and there are not many buyers. Good for me when I want Orks, bad when I want someone to play with...

Kulgur
28-12-2008, 14:45
*looks at the two Tau BFG fleets (GW and FW) and ponders why anyone would ever buy the ugly and far more expensive GW models*

orangesm
01-01-2009, 04:12
*looks at the two Tau BFG fleets (GW and FW) and ponders why anyone would ever buy the ugly and far more expensive GW models*

Because they have an official rules set?

Grimtuff
01-01-2009, 06:32
Because they have an official rules set?

Define "official?" :rolleyes:

As if that would ever bother anyone playing one of these games.

Kulgur
01-01-2009, 08:31
Because they have an official rules set?

When it comes to specialist games in particular the lines between official and unofficial get rather blurry

Darwin_green
01-01-2009, 10:37
ugh, the blood bowl stuff is just awful too. The human Linemen cost $8 EACH, a team runs you $60(us). Add their insane shipping it makes collecting a bloodbowl team of 12-15 guys cost almost as much as collecting 500-700pts of warhammer fantasy.

tsutek
01-01-2009, 10:49
Yeah, I feel you on the bloodbowl.. Besides, most of the GW BB minis look quite unimpressive. Try kitbashing 40k & fantasy plastics to get you the blood bowl teams you need, they will turn out a lot better looking that way (might save you some money as well)

I think GW has 'suspended' their SG line because they don't want to upset the trinity model.. 40k/WHFB/LOTR sales would surely suffer if SG games were given more love? Heck, I bet the stockholders would prefer that SG had never existed in the first place.

orangesm
01-01-2009, 14:18
Define "official?" :rolleyes:

As if that would ever bother anyone playing one of these games.


When it comes to specialist games in particular the lines between official and unofficial get rather blurry

That is fair, but the FW list that uses the FW models in Taros campaign is generally considered to be horrible; there are some 'unreleased' list that got out for them from SG. There is a CPF list that was well done by the player community and is likely the most balanced. And in the year I haven't been paying attention there is probably another one.

Like everything, you have to get opponent approval to use anything essentially (when you say wanna play BFG, AI, Epic, etc you are getting basic set of common rules established). I actually like the Tau SG ships; they make sense for the practical early ships of the Tau, including their ugliness.

Darwin_green
01-01-2009, 15:28
Yeah, I feel you on the bloodbowl.. Besides, most of the GW BB minis look quite unimpressive. Try kitbashing 40k & fantasy plastics to get you the blood bowl teams you need, they will turn out a lot better looking that way (might save you some money as well)
...

I don't know. Unless you already have an 40k/fantasy army of the team you want it's gonna cost you at least 30-40 us dollars.

ZamOne
11-05-2009, 06:11
Yeah, I feel you on the bloodbowl.. Besides, most of the GW BB minis look quite unimpressive. Try kitbashing 40k & fantasy plastics to get you the blood bowl teams you need, they will turn out a lot better looking that way (might save you some money as well)

I think GW has 'suspended' their SG line because they don't want to upset the trinity model.. 40k/WHFB/LOTR sales would surely suffer if SG games were given more love? Heck, I bet the stockholders would prefer that SG had never existed in the first place.
If it weren't for those damn awesome LOTR movies and the merchandising deal GW struck we'd still have SG support, that was their trinity before all these damned hobbits!

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU~

Askil the Undecided
11-05-2009, 10:52
GW isn't actively trying to kill any branch of it's business it simply doesn't care if it ends up dying on it's own.

If people stopped buying that bloody LOTR crap then GW would have to rethink things but as it is they aren't really bothered leaving the less profitable SG wing out in the cold just as long as there are still people buying the overpriced models for their increasingly awful and retardedly simplistic core game systems.

SSG Snuffy
23-05-2009, 20:40
I just stopped at my local Battle Bunker for the first time in a couple of months... not only is the quantity of blisters way down (for 40K and Fantasy; LoTR seemed well-stocked), but ALL Specialist Games material is gone. The fellow at the counter told me it had been taken away a couple of weeks ago, and is now Direct Order-only...

Askil the Undecided
24-05-2009, 09:18
It is the policy of GW that all SG material must be bought direct and cannot be stocked by it's independant suppliers.

At least that's what my mate from my FLGC who runs Rough Boulder Wargames (http://www.roughboulderwargames.co.uk/home_23.html) told me when I asked about the possibility of him getting some SG stock.

neXus6
24-05-2009, 10:57
It really does seem like they have just given up on them, that happened some years back.
Personally I find the destruction of their specialist games models even more of a disgrace than their prices. Crazy prices are one thing and to be expected considering that when it comes to the so-called specialist games GW have full control as often there aren't usually alternative models or options for conversions. When they basicly annihilated their Necromunda range that was crazy, and now the high prices / lack of support are putting just as big a dent in the other lines.

SSG Snuffy
24-05-2009, 19:26
It is the policy of GW that all SG material must be bought direct and cannot be stocked by it's independant suppliers.

At least that's what my mate from my FLGC who runs Rough Boulder Wargames (http://www.roughboulderwargames.co.uk/home_23.html) told me when I asked about the possibility of him getting some SG stock.

While confusing, I guess I can see GW sticking it to the little guy... but a Battle Bunker isn't really an independant supplier. After all, I can direct order through the Battle Bunker, pay for my merchandise on-site, have it shipped there for free, and get a phone call when it's ready to be picked up... they just don't stock any of it anymore. :wtf:

Daredhnu
24-05-2009, 19:51
So...I'm browsing the webstore to see the damage of the price rise...and...I come across....the Warlord Titan...

Ok twenty quid was an acceptable price, it was a BIG lump of metal, but pushing it up by 50% to thirty quid is asking a LITTLE too much from my wallet - and I see the Space Marine Landing Craft is 35 quid....someone tell me I'm having a horrible nightmare and some idiot GW techmonkey got it wrong?

yes GW is secretely trying to spite it's most loyal customers so they never come back to them again.

FictionalCharacter
24-05-2009, 19:59
i'm starting epic because of 40k prices. it's all relative.

granted, my epic stuff will be as ebayed as possible.

Askil the Undecided
27-05-2009, 11:10
SSG Snuffy You just described exactly what I said put into practice.

All that a shop not directly owned by GW (or an independant supplier as it's known in the buisness world) can do for the customer is order the SG models/books etc. for them, in much the same way as we could go to the online store and buy direct. Although we probably don't get an Independant Suppliers' discounted prices.

GW has withdrawn the oppurtunity for passing trade of SG lines by removing them from almost all stores so it's impossible to find out about them unless you know somebody who plays or go looking for them.

Lord Obsidianus
17-06-2009, 00:20
I'm glad that the main FLGS here still stocks all SGs.

The games are so much better than the trinity that it would be a shame to let them die off.

I do have hope for blood bowl however, what with the video game coming out and all; GW tends to support their stuff a little better when it's in the spotlight like that.

electric
22-06-2009, 04:39
I do have hope for blood bowl however, what with the video game coming out and all; GW tends to support their stuff a little better when it's in the spotlight like that.

Which is kind of funny, because I'd assume that's their LEAST profitable game. You buy a $45 team, $20 worth of extras, and you're done.

Lord Obsidianus
22-06-2009, 22:24
Which is kind of funny, because I'd assume that's their LEAST profitable game. You buy a $45 team, $20 worth of extras, and you're done.

But a market of 1000 people (for the sake of argument) buying $65 worth of stuff is the same as 100 people buying 650$ worth of fantasy army.

GW in general isn't mainstream, but if something like a blood bowl game catches on it could increase their market enough to warrant this sort of thing.

Thats my two cents, I could be very wrong.

electric
24-06-2009, 03:57
But a market of 1000 people (for the sake of argument) buying $65 worth of stuff is the same as 100 people buying 650$ worth of fantasy army.

GW in general isn't mainstream, but if something like a blood bowl game catches on it could increase their market enough to warrant this sort of thing.

Thats my two cents, I could be very wrong.

Well think about Epic. To start I bought a $40 and $45 dollar box. I would move on to spend about $150 more. So assume that's $200 on the low end. As someone said earlier, put something big about Epic in a white dwarf and now you have a huge amount of 40k players interested in spending $200. You put in the Blood Bowl article, and not only has a large amount of people already bought their $65, but some of those 40k players think "Hm. It's football. Not interested."

I could also be wrong, but it seems like this strategy could have GW profit very well. It seems like they just have bad marketing...

Lord Obsidianus
24-06-2009, 23:36
This line of thinking does not apply to the gamer market as much as the outside market.

Your example about a gamer looking at it is correct. but is a member of the non-wargaming public more likely to buy 65$ worth of stuff and get involved because they played blood bowl as a video game?or pick up Epic from looking at a WD.

Darkson
25-06-2009, 12:46
Personally, I don't know many BB players that have only spent $65. At the least, most BB caches I know (tabletop and from online) have 2 or 3 teams, if not more.
Admittedly, I've only got 2 GW BB teams (brought from GW), but that's more a protest at GW's lack of support - I've got £500+ worth of BB stuff from various sources (eBay, non-GW figs), and will spend more.


(And yes, I know my "protest" at GW doesn't help support BB, but imo the community has got to the point where we no longer need GW anyway.)

Black_Omega
04-07-2009, 15:44
Its the same for nec people say oh you only need to buy one gang which is true but most players then go on to try new gangs because theyre cheap to get into. Theres a lot of gangs so actually theres a nice profit in it if GW bothered to market it.

Bazman
04-07-2009, 18:08
The specialist games stuff is still available; that alone is something to be grateful for. In the old days once a game was out of fashion it was gone. GW have improved; like everyone I'd love cheaper prices and more models released, but they are better than when I left the hobby for ten years in 1998.

Baz:)

precinctomega
08-07-2009, 13:35
Personally, I'm delighted that GW has eased back on support for the Specialist Games. They don't seem to be "dying off". Reports of their death have been exaggerated for the last five years and yet all - except BOFA, obviously - appear to be doing just fine on their own.

GW has effectively handed over development and expansion of the Specialist Games to the Specialists: us, the hardcore, veteran fans.

Last year I approached Jervis Johnson with a proposal for a Second Edition of the Inquisitor rules and got to take him and Gav Thorpe through a quick playtest of my draft rules. I got the green light to continue development and either to distribute privately as a "fan set" or, given appropriately professional-looking presentation, to send it in to GW to be published officially as an electronic document on the website.

Try taking them a fan codex for 40k or an Army List for WFB and see if they'll publish it: not a hope. But SG is in the hands of the people that care about them; and that's the safest place they could be.

If GW folded tomorrow, SG would be the healthiest games in the marketplace because models can already be found for all of them (possibly except Warmaster) from other manufacturers and the development is already out of GW's hands.

R.

Hena
09-07-2009, 06:05
The main problem is the minis though. While veterans have their minis, it does remove chance for new players. Proxies are available yes, but I don't like playing something else as Rhino and I suspect that many will feel the same. Rules are easier, but minis are harder. Even if there is enough ability in fans to create good looking minis (and there are in Epic) mass production is something that's harder and more likely to bring down the wrath of GW.

precinctomega
09-07-2009, 12:29
What? GW doesn't produce minis for beginners in the Specialist Games?

Oh, right: they do. For all of them.

Yes, the choice may not be what it could be, but that's the gripe of a veteran who's capable of converting his own, digging up old minis or finding proxies from other manufacturers. For beginners, GW still provides everything they need and can be expected to continue doing so for the foreseeable future.

And, actually, the manufacture of models to support GW games that aren't actually direct rip-offs of GW models is tacitly supported by GW. Check out their history with Heresy, not merely objecting to the marriage of the Blight Demons with Cyclops heads, but merely suggesting that the two be sold separately. Again, with manufacturers like JMD and Ultraforge, instead of simply slapping them with a C&D on items they considered to breach their IP, they offered constructive suggestions on how the models could be changed in such a way as to make them happy.

Now companies like Pig Iron and MaxMini are making alternate heads and weapons that are obviously intended to appeal to 40k players, but GW hasn't turned a hair: because it all supports their hobby. So manufacturing models that could act as convincing proxies in EPIC isn't going to bother them in the slightest.

R.

Hena
10-07-2009, 10:19
I'd say that epic is shafted as it's missing things like Necron, Tyranids and non infantry Chaos models. FW produces Tau, but they are now reconsidering if they will cut the entire line or remake some moulds. So while there is some miniatures almost half of the major races are missing.

Ynek
16-07-2009, 05:31
I don't think that GW is trying to deliberately shut down specialist games. If they wanted to do that, they'd just stop selling specialist games miniatures and rulebooks, and that would be the end of the issue.

However, I think that GW are trying to wean people away from miniatures designed specifically for specialist games. Epic, for instance, uses lots and lots of very tiny models, which cost GW quite a lot of money to make and maintain the moulds for. And compared to 40k models, they don't sell nearly as well, and therefore, they get less profit per mould made.
The same goes for Inquisitor models. Inquisitor models don't sell anything like as well as 40k scale models, and thus, the 40k models are the most profitable route to take.

I think GW is trying to wean people away from games like Epic and try to encourage them to play Apocalypse, which has a lot of rules heavily inspired by the likes of epic. This way, they would no longer have to make and maintain moulds for epic40,000 models, and would only have to produce 40k scale models. Similarly, they are trying to wean people onto playing 28mm Inquisitor, which would mean they no longer have to maintain and make moulds for 54mm models. Thus, more 40k scale (28mm) models sell, and the company makes more profit as there are less moulds that must be made and maintained.

Besides, as PO suggests, game veterans are more than capable of compensating for the reduction in the range. It's all part of the specialist games hobby, and therefore, part of the fun.

CyberShadow
16-07-2009, 14:00
However, I think that GW are trying to wean people away from miniatures designed specifically for specialist games. Epic, for instance, uses lots and lots of very tiny models, which cost GW quite a lot of money to make and maintain the moulds for. And compared to 40k models, they don't sell nearly as well, and therefore, they get less profit per mould made....

I think GW is trying to wean people away from games like Epic and try to encourage them to play Apocalypse, which has a lot of rules heavily inspired by the likes of epic. This way, they would no longer have to make and maintain moulds for epic40,000 models, and would only have to produce 40k scale models. Similarly, they are trying to wean people onto playing 28mm Inquisitor, which would mean they no longer have to maintain and make moulds for 54mm models. Thus, more 40k scale (28mm) models sell, and the company makes more profit as there are less moulds that must be made and maintained.

Which is ironic, as they are weaning people away from SG games, and on to other companies! I dont want to play Exopy-Lips 40K. I want to play 6mm and space games. If GW wont let me buy theirs, I will find an alternative. Their business model seems to be focussed on telling us what we want to play, and it just doesnt work like that.

Hena
16-07-2009, 17:30
I think GW is trying to wean people away from games like Epic and try to encourage them to play Apocalypse, which has a lot of rules heavily inspired by the likes of epic.
I'm sorry, but all the comments that I've seen of Apocalypse doesn't make anything like Epic. I haven't played Apoc myself of course.

precinctomega
16-07-2009, 20:11
I think you're all wrong.

I think GW is perfectly content to support SG to the extent that it already does and has no ambitions to "wean" players off them or to abandon them entirely. They always were niche games in a niche market and, very sensibly, they've left the development of the games in the hands of those best placed to do it.

Yes, it would be nice to have a Necron army for EPIC. Yes, it would be great to have the lost minis restored to INQ. Yes, it would be brilliant if all the weapon options were available again for NEC. But none of those absences actively prevent people from playing the games. GW's support allows people to access the games at a very low cost and otherwise leave it to us to do the big stuff. They're happy with that. I'm happy with that. You should be happy with that, too.

R.

orangesm
17-07-2009, 01:34
very sensibly, (Games Workshop has) left the development of the games in the hands of those best placed to do it.
This was however not the intention when Games Workshop released any of these games, it is an accident from their point of view. From those who are doing the hard work it is dedication of free time to improve upon something they enjoy a lot.

precinctomega
19-07-2009, 08:28
Like many companies, Games Workshop's approach to its product line has varied with time, new management and experience.

The "Big Three" approach emerged only after the release of Lord of the Rings when Andy Hall was then re-directed to manage the new concept of "Specialist Games" - a ring-fencing of niche products that GW still supported in parallel with the Big Three. Up until that time, all of GW's products were theoretically equal even though WFB and 40k were clearly the market-leaders by a long margin.

Identifying the B3 gave a much greater degree of clarity to the question of priorities for support and development within GW. But it was a fundamental and conscious decision at the time that SG was formed as a distinct product group that development of the games would be devolved primarily to its fans, working in their own time.

So whilst it was not GW's intent to delegate development to fans at the time of the games' releases, it nevertheless was a deliberate decision at the time that the B3 and SG lines were separated and priorities refocused within the Studio.

R.

Easy E
20-07-2009, 01:32
PrecintOmega, I think you are dead on. I for one am happy about that. I think the Big 3 need a larger injection of Fan stuff too. The whole, "is it Official" stigma can be very stifling. That' swhy I like Specialist Games so much more than the Big 3.

precinctomega
20-07-2009, 08:58
Got in one, Easy.

R.

Lord Malorne
20-07-2009, 09:03
I don't really mind the no new stuff too much, the ranges are pretty vast, a mention now and then would be nice, like talking about BFG when planetstrike is the flavour of the month, I mean, how did they get there...?

40k Boy
20-07-2009, 09:43
Apocalypse isn't anything like Epic - there are no real strategies or tactics, its simply a matter of buying loads of super-expensive stuff from GW, lining it all up 12" apart and then rolling millions of dice over 2-3 very long turns to see whats left at the end.

I don't think GW are trying to get rid of SG though, its just that the models for these games are really old and its not worth investing in new moulds and sculpts for them. The fact that all the rules are free on the website is great as well. When you think of games like Necromunda, Mordheim and Inquistor only need a handful of models to play, GW really don't make much money from them. I'm still using Epic Guards that i bought back in the days of 'Adeptus Titanicus' and 'Space Marine' back in the early nineties, in fact, you can still buy some of them now in the current Epic store area! Same goes for my Delaque and Cawdor Necromunda gangs.

stonehorse
20-07-2009, 11:51
If GW wanted to kill of SG they could do it very easily... by taking down all the SG items and free rulebooks on their website.

The fact that SG are still here and can be bought is proof enough that there is still support for SG, however I do feel that GW could devote more time to SG in WD from time to time.

I see SG as a way for GW to produce 'mature games', by this I mean games that are are not aimed at theier main target, which could explain why there is a lack of SG articles in WD. The 3 core systems GW have are their bread & butter, it does make business sense to focus on their promotion.

I do feel that with the right amount of promotion that Sg could be a nice little side earner for GW.

precinctomega
20-07-2009, 13:13
like talking about BFG when planetstrike is the flavour of the month, I mean, how did they get there...?

My new UK White Dwarf came through the door not two hours ago, and guess what gets a mention alongside the new Planetary Empires feature? Yep: BFG.

@stonehorse - SG is a nice little earner. They've stripped the range down to the point that turnover covers costs and delivers profit and otherwise it costs them nothing.

R.

Makaber
20-07-2009, 13:23
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I would assume it has something to do with the current global financial situation. A while back, GW released a press release explaining that the costs of metal has become so significant now, they were forced to increase prices on all metal products. This has of course hit Specialist Games harder than the other ranges relativly speaking, as it's almost exclusivly made up of metal models.

Furthermore, why would GW deliberately screw things up for itself? If they didn't want to support Specialist Games, they'd simply stop doing so. The entire premise for this thread doesn't make sense.

Oh, and by the way ... A 16-man Human Blood Bowl team (a Specialist Games product) is £40. A unit of 15 Phoenix Guard (a Warhammer, core game, product)? £40.

stonehorse
20-07-2009, 14:08
The prices aren't that bad for the SG ranges, as few models are needed, sure they models may have a high price tag.

I'm buying an Imperial Navy fleet for BFG, and it will cost less than £50; which dosen't buy me much for the 3 core games.

I just feel that it could be making them a bit more money if they promoted it better, either way it is good the way it is as it is still here at least.

Lord Malorne
20-07-2009, 14:16
As system the SG's do have a far lower cost than the other ones but I feel that considering them a independant system is a bad thing as of course they make far less than the core games, if they where on the other hand considered 'another army' then they would get updates, the odd new model and hobby articles, to find out about SG's now as a new player is to be honest, a case of stumbling on the section and going what's this?

There are no arrows pointing at SG, no facetime, just a dark corner.

It is good to hear that about BFG in the latest WD, though I will have to read it to see if it was worth it, I don't personaly think much of anything needs added to the range (all plastic would be nice but i'm not that bothered) just more facetime would be nice.



Furthermore, why would GW deliberately screw things up for itself?


...

:eyebrows:

Is that a trick question?

selone
20-07-2009, 14:52
Blood bowl is still going strong and whilst £30 for 12 metal models is pricey its still far cheaper than fantasy battle (which is becoming £17.60 for 12 plastic models). Plus there's ebay and things like impact miniatures. All my stuff is GW but I really had a problem with the cost of blood bowl there are cheaper alternatives like the excellent 'amazon' team they do, 12 modles for £19 and better looking imo.


People can and do convert their own using GW modles as well. There appears to be a lot more freedom in SG than in FB concerning counts as.

precinctomega
21-07-2009, 17:47
to find out about SG's now as a new player is to be honest, a case of stumbling on the section and going what's this?

Says the man on the Internet. Meanwhile, in wargaming clubs everywhere, people are being introduced to Specialist Games the way nature intended: by other gamers. My club's members are starting to complain at the way we keep introducing new SGs in parallel with the core games, because they love them so much we get them spending more money every week!

We've got regular games of INQ, NEC and BFG, with BB forecast for next year and mutterings of MORD circulating. EPIC will, no doubt, follow along with WM.

I think we might skip BOFA, though. Everyone else does! :P

R.

R.

Lord Malorne
21-07-2009, 21:35
Says the man on the Internet. Meanwhile, in wargaming clubs everywhere, people are being introduced to Specialist Games the way nature intended: by other gamers. My club's members are starting to complain at the way we keep introducing new SGs in parallel with the core games, because they love them so much we get them spending more money every week!

We've got regular games of INQ, NEC and BFG, with BB forecast for next year and mutterings of MORD circulating. EPIC will, no doubt, follow along with WM.

I think we might skip BOFA, though. Everyone else does! :P

R.

R.

Actualy, you proved my point excellently, I said new players, what you describe is players being introduced by existing players, who found out I am sure from having played it for a few years and themselves discovering it... how?

Not the same, thanks.

stonehorse
21-07-2009, 22:08
I think it goes something like this:

Step 1. New to hobby which means playing at stores only for a number of years.
Step 2. Find out about local gaming club.
Step 3. Visit Local gaming club and play what you know.
Step 4. Ask for a demo game of something other than the 3 core games.
Step5. Convert.

It does take a while, but the allure of the SG is too much for some to resist.

MarcoSkoll
21-07-2009, 23:56
I have to agree with Easy E's comment. The flexibility inherent in the Specialist games makes many of the games more casual and less competitive.

I actually prefer the small scale of many of the SGs, and that's carried over to how I prefer to play 40k. Possibly the games I most enjoy are the 500 point mini-games (variation of Combat Patrol/40k in 40 minutes rules).

I doubt GW are trying to sink the Specialist games range. If they really wanted to do that, it would be easy to pull the plug entirely.
That doesn't mean they're doing a great deal to promote it. The loss of the old PDFs from the site, the annuals from the stores, bitz packs and individual parts codes... none of this has helped the cause of the SGs from the gamer's perspective.

But we must remember, Games Workshop is still a business. They have to turn a profit, and if they need to prune back SGs to make ends meet, then that's what they'll have to do.
And for that same reason, I doubt they'll drop the SGs entirely. They can still turn a profit - not the same magnitude as the big three, but there's still some good money in there.

precinctomega
22-07-2009, 08:37
and themselves discovering it... how?

Well, in my case, I discovered Inquisitor, Necromunda and BFG on their initial release and have played them, on and off, every since. In the case of EPIC, I bought the original Space Marine game, so have followed its developments since then, even though I've not played it for years.

I've personally introduced dozens of new players to the game in real life through demo games at the local store, at Games Day and at my local club. Of course, I've also recruited people online, but my point was that SG doesn't need a big neon flashing light pointing to its tab on the website to attract new players.

R.

Lord Malorne
22-07-2009, 13:41
Well, in my case, I discovered Inquisitor, Necromunda and BFG on their initial release and have played them, on and off, every since. In the case of EPIC, I bought the original Space Marine game, so have followed its developments since then, even though I've not played it for years.

I've personally introduced dozens of new players to the game in real life through demo games at the local store, at Games Day and at my local club. Of course, I've also recruited people online, but my point was that SG doesn't need a big neon flashing light pointing to its tab on the website to attract new players.

R.

Nor should it not have any mention (which has been the case for many years, I am glad to hear a WD mention is coming up), i'm sure you can agree that there does exist some middle ground where they can occasionaly talk about it without overdoing it....?

Its all well and nice for you and your group of existing players who started when it was advertised to people, for many clubs that have never started it, it is quite the leap to start it without existing players who know about it, we had a few that played Necromunda years ago who managed to get a few of us to start (and we are glad we did) but the other systems are a leap, a few of us have BFG now though rarely play it as we are all new to it, though we are slowly starting to collect most of the SG ranges.

Its all well and nice being happy about the current state of SG when you have your area set up with many players who have years of experience, its not for those who don't, as i'm sure you will agree SG are for the most part great games and are fun to play/collect, being that as it is, surely it is a good thing if more people got to know the joys you have experienced? A little facetime can go along way and can get people who are sitting on the fence (or who did not know there was a fence) to come over and start SG.

Surely?

precinctomega
22-07-2009, 14:45
Its all well and nice being happy about the current state of SG when you have your area set up with many players who have years of experience

I DIDN'T!

In fact, I knew no other players in my local area, could rarely get to the local store and on the rare occasions that I did, no one there was interested in Specialist Games.

That's why I

1) Started a club (http://wargamingclub.blogspot.com http://www.yorkgarrison.co.uk) - a journey that literally led to tears on occasions.

2) Ran demo games at the store and at the club.

I started by introducing players to Inquisitor (at 54mm, rather than 28mm), which I thought was a stretch. But now half of my members have their own warbands. Then I started muttering about BFG and - behold! - there are now four fleets in the club. Then one of the other members (turned on to Specialist Games) declared the intent to start a NEC campaign: and it happened! Now there's talk of Bloodbowl.

The point is that when people gather to play, what they want is to know they're getting a game. That's why most people play WFB and 40k. But if one person - just one person - is prepared to make an effort and get people playing a new game then you'll quickly find that it snowballs.

You started NEC. Good for you! Did people enjoy it? Then maybe they'll enjoy other Specialist Games. It doesn't need a feature in White Dwarf to make people play games, otherwise no one would play Flames of War, Warmachine or Heroclix. And yet they do!

R.

Lord Malorne
22-07-2009, 15:01
...Why are you so against SG being mentioned in WD?

stonehorse
22-07-2009, 18:18
Sorry to take this off topic, but Good Lord precinctomega: your club is mighty expensive.

Back on topic.
I think that a small article from time to time would help broaden people’s knowledge of GW’s full catalogue, as it is most people who read White Dwarf only know of the 3 core systems. I agree that over saturation could be a bad thing, as GW might then feel the need/temptation to unnecessarily tinker with the rules.

selone
22-07-2009, 20:39
Mighty expensive? The ones I go are a fiver each visit.

stonehorse
22-07-2009, 21:49
http://www.leeds-nightowls.co.uk/about-us.htm

Check out our low fees and speaking as the newly appointed treasurer I can assure you the club is financial stable. By the way, the fee does include access to both floors, so we can have about 20 6' by 4' tables if need be.

precinctomega
23-07-2009, 09:41
Good Lord precinctomega: your club is mighty expensive.

Really? I did some research and we come in about average. It was a lot less when we had a free venue, but now we pay.

We use two rooms and, with our prices having just been put up by York Council, we pay £42 a week (£7/hour per room for three hours a week). With the profit from the shop, we just about make enough profit every week to pay for our insurance and to fund the things members want us to buy (like a fridge and new storage cabinet). How much does LNO pay for its rooms?

Funnily enough, we had Laurie Stewart along last night. And with over 30 people on our books, and growing every week, it doesn't look like our prices are putting anyone off.

On Topic:


Why are you so against SG being mentioned in WD?

I'm not against it at all. But I understand why it doesn't get more than the occasional passing reference and I don't agree with those alarmists who seem to think that without publicity in White Dwarf the Specialist Games will somehow die out. Specialist Games, in my experience, are on the rise.

R.

iamfanboy
23-07-2009, 09:49
Exactly, P. Omega.

If you want word of a Specialist Game to spread, YOU'VE got to spread it - and work hard at it.

the best way to do it is as a gamemaster; let two people play against each other while you teach them the rules. The 'nice' thing about Necromunda/Mordheim is that if they've played Warhammer 40k/FB then they know what the stats mean; Bloodbowl is easily accessible especially to Americans if you say, "It's literally fantasy football. Orks, elves, trolls..." Then you show your Orcland Raiders team against the Darkside Cowboys and it's good to go.

If Games Workshop isn't content for it to spread and just wants it to die off, it's the job of the fans to keep it alive. For five years, Battletech was a dead game except for the fans; now it's back.

Lord Malorne
23-07-2009, 09:56
I'm not against it at all. But I understand why it doesn't get more than the occasional passing reference and I don't agree with those alarmists who seem to think that without publicity in White Dwarf the Specialist Games will somehow die out. Specialist Games, in my experience, are on the rise.

R.

Being that I am not an alarmist (I do not think GW will drop SG period) I still feel that facetime would not hurt SG, also I do not understand how you understand why it doesn't get more than a passing reference, perhaps you know a secret? As it is, looking at SG as just another game (not an 'the end is nigh!' nay sayer) I feel that more facetime can only benefit SG's.



If you want word of a Specialist Game to spread, YOU'VE got to spread it - and work hard at it.


Obviously, this has been the case for many years now...

precinctomega
23-07-2009, 13:51
I do not understand how you understand why it doesn't get more than a passing reference

Because,

1) Corporate policy is to support the Big Three principally.
2) Producing White Dwarf takes a huge amount of time and careful forward-planning.
3) Including Specialist Games detracts from support to the Big Three and is not considered to be time productively spent.

Now, personally, I'd like White Dwarf to be less of a corporate advertising vehicle and more of a hobby magazine that happens to be published by Games Workshop (except, of course, that it isn't published by Games Workshop, but by Times Warner, whilst GW employs the editorial staff). But accepting that this isn't and, most likely, never will be the case, I understand why the editorial priorities are what they are.

Something to always bear in mind is that, corporate policy aside, there is a lot of SG interest within the core of GW's staff. Lots of studio guys and senior managers love EPIC, BFG, NEC, WM and other SGs and play them (as well as - say it soft - non-GW games, like Battletech, Flames of War, DBM and Warmachine). Of course they do. They're hobbyists, like you and me.

But Policy is Policy and as long as WD is essentially a well-crafted publicity-machine (and don't get me wrong: unlike many, I subscribe to WD and enjoy every issue) SG will only rarely get a look-in.

R.

UlricDarksoul
28-07-2009, 20:37
Because,

1) Corporate policy is to support the Big Three principally.
2) Producing White Dwarf takes a huge amount of time and careful forward-planning.
3) Including Specialist Games detracts from support to the Big Three and is not considered to be time productively spent.

Now, personally, I'd like White Dwarf to be less of a corporate advertising vehicle and more of a hobby magazine that happens to be published by Games Workshop (except, of course, that it isn't published by Games Workshop, but by Times Warner, whilst GW employs the editorial staff). But accepting that this isn't and, most likely, never will be the case, I understand why the editorial priorities are what they are.

Something to always bear in mind is that, corporate policy aside, there is a lot of SG interest within the core of GW's staff. Lots of studio guys and senior managers love EPIC, BFG, NEC, WM and other SGs and play them (as well as - say it soft - non-GW games, like Battletech, Flames of War, DBM and Warmachine). Of course they do. They're hobbyists, like you and me.

But Policy is Policy and as long as WD is essentially a well-crafted publicity-machine (and don't get me wrong: unlike many, I subscribe to WD and enjoy every issue) SG will only rarely get a look-in.

R.

this leaves us with the following question: How many of you where suscribed to the fanatic magazine, or one of the Specific game's magazine form SG?

azraelezekiel
29-07-2009, 07:53
this leaves us with the following question: How many of you where suscribed to the fanatic magazine, or one of the Specific game's magazine form SG?

Not me I came to the party too late.
So I have had to buy the back issues off of eBay and mourn the fact that all the 'new releases' of models and scenery now go for obscene amounts :(

Bazman
29-07-2009, 08:19
Paying for Clubs...has the world gone mad.

Try asking a local church about its hall or a school or something. Paying money is wrong. This should be social enterprise, not the council making money off the back of it.

We use each others houses and the local store, but if it's adult only gamers you can easily get abarroom for free if they think people will be buying drinks, works well for beer and pretzels type groups.

I'd pay for a tournament, but wouldn't for a club. I'd rather found an informal one and let word of mouth recruit good people to it.

Lord Malorne
29-07-2009, 10:10
Clubs are great, the fee is for many things, you would have to look into clubs more before you can have such a negative opinion of them.

Bazman
29-07-2009, 10:59
I just object to paying when there are so many "free" clubs and groups in our area.

I was merely horrified that clubs needed to charge to cover rent; if it's for good stuff for the hobby great, but making people pay to line someones pocket, I still say there must be other venue options. Investment in club stuff is a good reason to pay, but there are loads of funding sources. If young people (under 18's) are involved you can get loads of cash for development and GW even support you through the community gaming stuff for a few bits and bobs.

LazarusKing
07-08-2009, 07:31
I think "killing" SG is a very extreme way of putting it. We just got a pair of BB minis recently. At least it's SOMETHING. Would I like more? Yes. But we got 2 terrific sculpts of 2 figures that needed an update. I think they'll get to making more in their own time, but we'll see.

Just for the record, when I placed the Direct order for my customers this week, The Human BB team and an INQ figure were out of stock. So people are buying. If you really want to generate interest, run an event, and have your FLGS ask their account manager to list it in the tournament section of WD. Get it out there.

Dominus_Serui
07-08-2009, 08:26
And to think, when I started this thread, it was to rant about the price of Titans beeing rediculous...

borithan
17-12-2009, 18:04
I think GW is trying to wean people away from games like Epic and try to encourage them to play Apocalypse, which has a lot of rules heavily inspired by the likes of epic.Meh, can't imagine the game anyway feeling alike.



This way, they would no longer have to make and maintain moulds for epic40,000 models, and would only have to produce 40k scale models. Similarly, they are trying to wean people onto playing 28mm Inquisitor,Was there any other way to play it? The official Inquisitor models were both massively expensive and totally out of scale of anyone's terrain. The only people I knew who played it did so with normal 40k figures right from the get go.

neXus6
17-12-2009, 19:01
And to think, when I started this thread, it was to rant about the price of Titans beeing rediculous...

Little did you know the monster you would unleash over the following year.
:p

I never did see why GW seemed to price Epic so heavily...I mean going by model size (never a sure thing with GW I know) there is no reason a Warlord Titan should cost 50% more than a Gothic Battleship.

I can only assume that in Epic you are more likely to need multiple detatchments of tanks, multiple Titans...etc...when you go up to bigger game sizes where as in Gothic people usually aren't going to have more than a couple of battleships at most.

Then again there is also the fact that there are dozens of producers of spaceship models for space wargames, I doubt there are many other producers of Epic scale titans.
:rolleyes:

Lord Malorne
17-12-2009, 19:04
There are several actualy, two of which make good necron stand ins, dark realm miniatures and I can't remember the others.

Also, naughty borithon, threadomancy is naughty!

Lord Malorneus6

kaled
18-12-2009, 13:44
Was there any other way to play it? The official Inquisitor models were both massively expensive and totally out of scale of anyone's terrain. The only people I knew who played it did so with normal 40k figures right from the get go.
Yeah, there are plenty of people playing Inquisitor at 54mm and more starting all the time.

It's something of a misconception that the 54mm GW models don't fit with people's existing terrain collections. Almost all 28mm terrain works really well at the larger scale - Cities of Death, ruins, most trees, shrubs, hills, barricades, craters, the temple of skulls etc. Necromunda terrain also works well. And if you build your own terrain it's easy to make it so it's usable at both scales. I used to build terrain to be used in both Epic and Necromunda and the difference in scale between those is far more than between Inquisitor and 40k (and some of that old terrain is perfectly usable for Inquisitor too).

The only real problem with Inquisitor at 54mm is that a lot of people have all sorts of misconceptions about it and dismiss it out of hand. The terrain issue is only one; other include it being expensive (it isn't, you can pick up models quite cheaply if you shop around), the available range of models is small (there are hundreds of excellent 54mm models out there), and so on...

borithan
08-01-2010, 17:00
What is funny is that the Forgeworld Warhounds are now only £3 more than the regular GW ones, and the FW Reaver is actually £2 LESS than the GW model, and nicer.Meh... while I agree the FW Warhounds are nicer, I really don't like the look of their Reaver... just too ugly. I think it is the only old style titan that actually works. The plastic Warlords were hideous, the first warhounds were ok, but look rather dated, and the one they show on their online store is frankly hideous (is it just the paint job or did they update the model and make it worse?), but the Reaver looked ok. It looks dated, but then that fits the idea of it being an older, more mysterious, less used design.


other include it being expensive (it isn't, you can pick up models quite cheaply if you shop around),Still more expensive than doing it with 28mm models... I guess it really does depend how you want to model and play it... we just used rough proxies from an existing collection (I had a guardsman with a shotgun... so I took a guardsman with a shotgun). For those that like modeling and using 54mm figures it is fine, but there is no real reason beyond personal preference to do so (ie, no in game thing preventing you from doing so) and it will end up cheaper in 28mm (even if it doesn't have to be as expensive as many people think it might in 54mm). And, yes, you can make terrain transferable over different scales, even ones with big differences between them, but it can't be done with everything, and many pieces would need forward planning with that in mind. A river is fairly simple. In 54mm it is a small stream, in 28mm it is a large one, and in 6mm it is a large river. Trees, on the other hand are not so easy. Some will be usable on various scales, but a decent sized tree (rather than bush) for 28mm figures ain't really practical for 6mm (weird massive alien trees aside), while decent trees for 6mm figures just look stupid against 54mm figures (while probably remaining usable as bushes in 28mm scale). Buildings and artificial constructs... well, that depends entirely on the model. Some will be very fixed within their scale, others will not.

Crazy Harborc
08-01-2010, 17:55
Well GW is a for profit company. To earn a living the gamers who work for GW the company follow and enforce GW policies. Specificly the years old policy of raising prices until people stop buying/paying higher every year for whatever.

GW has convinced itself that because Specialist Games are not THE big three of the GW products higher prices "must" be charged for the goodies.

As far as not paying to game at a club......Build a table in your house invite the opponents over to your place to game. You furnish the scenery and other items.;) Been there. Still am by choice.

kaled
08-01-2010, 18:55
And, yes, you can make terrain transferable over different scales, even ones with big differences between them, but it can't be done with everything
In my years of playing Inquisitor I've used 28mm terrain almost exclusively and it's been rare that I've come across anything that clashes to the point that it spoils the suspension of disbelief. In practice, 28mm trees are almost always fine, and as you say, things like rocks, streams, hills etc are unlikely to be a problem. We're also very fortunate that all the buildings in the GW 28mm range have very imposing proportions so they work nicely at the larger scale too.

There's certainly nothing wrong with playing at 28mm - but 54mm has some advantages that aren't always apparent until you've tried it. And some of the things that a lot of people think of as disadvantages, such as the fairly small range of GW models, actually turn out to be advantages (in my opinion at least!). I do have a 28mm warband for Inquisitor, mainly built using old Rogue Trader era miniatures, but my Inquisitor was extensively converted and cost more than some of my 54mm models... but yes, 28mm can easily be cheaper than 54mm.

GomezAddams
08-01-2010, 19:30
Just before christmas I pondered the idea of doing an epic army and started window shopping - until I looked at the cost. I'd love to do an epic army, but when your paying far too much for so little metal then it becomes a big turn off.

£12 for two valkyries? £30 for ten russes? I remember when those were released and I'm sure they weren't nearly half as much as that (think it was 3 to a blister, £6). With such a high buy in value, and with so few people playing it that I know, its enough of a deterrent to keep my wallet focused on 40k..

Owewemuxutt
07-02-2010, 02:02
funny.
and the ppl buying ori games are downloading mp3s like mad.
so whos gonna create music later?

Coasty
11-02-2010, 16:30
Bands, singers, musicians...? Same as now, in fact, but without crooks like Sony nicking all their money. Not sure how that's relevent.