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kloudfire
06-10-2008, 01:17
I'm rather new to VC and I was wondering if there are any MUSTS... I understand there are often debates about what is good but often there are some no brainers :)... I play in a very competitive envirment and I need to catch up with the curve... I will have a spearhead to start... but what do I need to pick up or avoid like the plague...

T10
06-10-2008, 01:38
You must take Core choices and a Vampire character to be your General.

-T10

kloudfire
06-10-2008, 02:20
Haha, I don't mean that...I mean like with liazrdmen, if you dont take a unit of salamanders then why are you playing lizardmen?

Are skellies thought to be better then zombie? or go with ghouls?

theunwantedbeing
06-10-2008, 02:22
There arent any must haves for VC.
You can generally pick anything you like.

Although I would advise not taking more than 2 character's that can actually cast.
VC armies that consist of over half the point's in character's are aweful at winning games or being any fun to face at all.
You either get lucky and pass your saves and win, or you don't get luck and your opponent easily beats the snot out of your tiny little VC army.

Taking a good mix of troops and several big blocks of infantry is generally the best way to go about making a VC army that is both fun and interesting to play as and play against.
I've played against the "tiny little VC army" loads of times and have lost only once due to terribly bad luck on my part, and unfairly good luck on the part of my opponent, and this is with the 6th edition dark elves (possibly the worst army in the game at the time).
However when facing an actual VC hoarde army the games have always been close and very interesting.

When I got to use a VC army I took a large hoarde and it did fantastically well and I and my opponent had a brilliant game.

I'de advise taking a rare slot or 2 as a vampire (so Blood knights, Coach or Vargulf) simply to allow the unit's near them to march without the need to babysit them with a vampire character. These unit's dont so much need to be offensive, merely to exist to allow the unit's nearby to march.

FunkyRatDemon
06-10-2008, 02:56
I see more Zombies then skeletons where I play
T4 + poison > T3 and possible 4+sv

silentarrow12
06-10-2008, 03:50
I would say that a Vargulf is almost always extremely handy to have around. Skeletons vs. ghouls is a very personal choice but I would say go with the ghouls or swarms of cheap zombies. VC need to maximize their magic potential so bring tons of vampires, bound spells, and the ever useful corpse carts.

Ward.
06-10-2008, 04:08
I see more Zombies then skeletons where I play
T4 + poison > T3 and possible 4+sv

You're thinking of ghouls.

Lordsaradain
06-10-2008, 07:20
There are no must haves in VC, because every unit has alot of potential.
Rare for example; varghulf, cairn wraiths and blood knights are all great (I've never tried the black coch though).
Personally, I'd proably never go without at least one unit of fellbats, but I have several friends who also play VC, and none of them has ever used fellbats...

Gharof von Carstein
06-10-2008, 08:10
fell bats and dire wolves pay there way in three ways, charge/march blocking and warmachine/wizard hunting and of course rank negating flank. thats basically it. if you are not facing warmachines or wizards in your opponents army dont run solo you just wasted 60 points on a unit that will crumble at the first sign a enemy unit. sure there is a possibility (especially with fell bats) to get a flank charge in to negate ranks but you could use summoned zombies for that.

moving on, zombies are not to be bought, they are to be raised. buying zombies is a sure waste of points, spend those points on ghouls and skellies, youll be needing those more. basically you must have max number of vampires you are allowed. sure you can throw the occassional wight king in the mix but vampires are prefered to keep marching up.

the rare and special choices are purely what you desire flavour or tactic wise. its up to you. i personally adore playing with ghouls, blood knights and black knights. but thats me. i could take a varghulf and black coach there 2 but its a matter of taste or tactics. wraiths are oke but only in units of size 5 or greater. they hit oke on most units but if they dont negate ranks than why take em. i ussually take 6 so i get at least 5 of em in a units flank.

hope this helps!

RossS
06-10-2008, 08:30
I ascribe to the "bring the zombies to the table" school of thought. They are certainly easy to raise, but if you have to spend power dice building a unit or two, then you aren't using that dice on more aggressive magic. It also means you will have less dice to spend on replenishing casualties caused by missile fire/magic as you shuffle towards the foe.

A unit of 30 zombies is definately a must-have unit for VC. No question.

A Verghulf is also, in my humble opinion, something of a must-have.

Gharof von Carstein
06-10-2008, 10:57
why? 175points for a unit thats is US4 with just regenaration isnt that hot. sure hes S5 T5 but still i find he dies a little too easy due to crumbling. your gonna fail at least one or two of those regen saves on it.

its handy but definatly not a must take.

30 zombies for VC a must have? on what do you base this? there are core units out there which are about 10 times better than the zombies (ghouls skellies) 30 zombies is 14 ghouls. ill take the ghouls anyday. if your planning to be raising zombies in big blocks for tarpit purposes youll almost always bring someone with the sceptre of noirot. which makes it so incredibly easy to raise dead gigantic units of zombies after which you IoN them to big size. if your not willing to invest the PD for this than you dont really want/need those zombies. if your argument is that you need them for tarpitting than you should be using more vampiric powers like lord of the dead and summon ghouls. each one of these can take that same task and maybe kill some more models while they are at it.

im not arguing the fact that zombies are not the ultimate tarpit (cheap units that can be raised up to insane numbers) im just saying taking a big block of them from the start and wasting 120 points on it in a VC list is bull.

Da GoBBo
06-10-2008, 11:47
I don't know. a 120 points for a fully grown RnF unit that is unbreakable and causes fear seems like a good buy to me. If you want a lot of those, you can't expect to raise all of those units. This means ye have to buy em up front. Sure, they have a scary magic, but a decent magic defense with a scroll or two can even mangle the VC magic phases.

I understand why you'd do it of course. A zombie herd isn't the best way to go. You'd rather spend 1300 points on characters, have 10 death knights, a black couch and a big block a grave guard. That doesn't leave much room for anything else.

Lordmonkey
06-10-2008, 12:22
The Book of Arkhan

Gokamok
06-10-2008, 12:35
Well, let me start out with the single unit that you don't want to take: Spirit Hosts. Anything these guys do, wraiths do better for the same amount amount of points. I guess they're only included in the armybook to supply their stats for Wind of Undeath.

I personally don't like paying points for Zombies, but that's a matter of playstyle; if you want a big, reliable tarpit that doesn't need to be raised first, then Zombies are your friends:D

As for the rare choices, I'll definitely agree that the Varghulf is a very good buy for the points. It would be awesome if it had US5 to negate ranks, but as it is now, it can easily take care of fast/medium cavalry, small infantry units, missile troops and so on. Combined with being M8 and terror-causing, this thing is IMO a very good allround choice.

Gharof von Carstein and I disagree a lot on Cairn Wraiths as a whole. I find that 3 Wraiths hitting a unit that is already engaged by Ghouls/Skeletons is usually more than enough to force an Insane Courage check, and I also think Banshees are exceptionally good, if nothing else then for their psychological impact on a game. I have yet to see an LD9 character voluntarily stand in screaming range of a banshee:D

Lordsaradain
06-10-2008, 12:56
sure there is a possibility (especially with fell bats) to get a flank charge in to negate ranks but you could use summoned zombies for that.


Nope. Skirmishers and flyers do not negate rank bonus.

RossS
06-10-2008, 20:43
why? 175points for a unit thats is US4 with just regenaration isnt that hot. sure hes S5 T5 but still i find he dies a little too easy due to crumbling. your gonna fail at least one or two of those regen saves on it.

its handy but definatly not a must take.

30 zombies for VC a must have? on what do you base this? there are core units out there which are about 10 times better than the zombies (ghouls skellies) 30 zombies is 14 ghouls. ill take the ghouls anyday. if your planning to be raising zombies in big blocks for tarpit purposes youll almost always bring someone with the sceptre of noirot. which makes it so incredibly easy to raise dead gigantic units of zombies after which you IoN them to big size. if your not willing to invest the PD for this than you dont really want/need those zombies. if your argument is that you need them for tarpitting than you should be using more vampiric powers like lord of the dead and summon ghouls. each one of these can take that same task and maybe kill some more models while they are at it.

im not arguing the fact that zombies are not the ultimate tarpit (cheap units that can be raised up to insane numbers) im just saying taking a big block of them from the start and wasting 120 points on it in a VC list is bull.

First, the Vergulf should not have to even deal with crumbling. It should be targetting things that it can butcher and rout in a single turn. Skirmishers, light cavalry, small missile units (not of the High Elven sort), and warmachines. The Vergulf does a phenomenal job dealing with these units, and, as far as monsters go, it isn't too pricey.

Zombies are a must-have because they are cheap, and are admirable tarpits. They don't need to kill anything. They stand there and get abused by any idiot who can even lift his/her weapon. Then, I reraise them, and the cycle continues.

Ghouls are not optimally designed for tarpit duty. They can actually hurt things. I have been taking them in smallish units...they operate like undead detachments.

A agree about the wraiths. They are a supeb unit. And I for one am happy no one has mentioned the accursed Blood Knights.

Von Wibble
06-10-2008, 21:36
First, the Vergulf should not have to even deal with crumbling. It should be targetting things that it can butcher and rout in a single turn. Skirmishers, light cavalry, small missile units (not of the High Elven sort), and warmachines. The Vergulf does a phenomenal job dealing with these units, and, as far as monsters go, it isn't too pricey.



But fell bats/ dire wolves can do this job almost as well for lots less points and no rare choice. I have faced several Varghulf's and none have impressed me.

Imo as an opponent of undead I think the following are very powerful

Wraiths - as long as you aren't fighting daemons or wood elves.

Fell bats - my absolute no 1 priority target to remove as soon as possible.

Dire wolves - a M9 unit that can remove rank bonus for 50pts and core. Take at least 2 blocks!

Nightshroud. But only because I play high elves.

Mullitron
07-10-2008, 08:40
Well imo one of the great things about the recent vampire book is the fact that most choices are viable. The reason there is constant debate as to which is better out of zombies or skellies as core is because there both good choices. Some people use them in different ways as already discussed but if used well then can both be effective. From what ive seen/read and heard there are no must haves for vamps (besides the obvious vampires ofc:p )

kramplarv
07-10-2008, 09:20
I'd say a vharglf is the must must choice of VC. Because it has M8 and terror. and is a real characterkiller. It can smash into almost any character bar chaos mortals and take them out. And sacrificing 175 pts for killing of a wizard is a perfect way to go.

And i'd also always take me some doggies. perfect unit. Fast cav with M9. wunderbar.
At least 3 units, one of 7 big and a champion, så that they can charge that bloodthirster and stall him one round with a challenge.

Sidorio
07-10-2008, 09:38
fell bats are handy, they've pissed me off many a time. cairn wraiths are also a handy little unit. as i don't play them thats about as far as my advice goes. oh, corpse carts are also a little thing that can help if you use them correctly.

Gharof von Carstein
07-10-2008, 09:47
thats indeed a fun way to stall demons.

about the zombies. its basically what your tactic is. ghouls can be taken in smallish units, i know cuz iv done so a million times over. but they havent really started to shine for me until i took em in big units 7 wide. now thats killing power!

blood knights are of course not a must take. i agree its good nobody had the snot for brains to name them. sure i own them, i love em. but if you say they are a must you dont know your VC. spending 350+points on a unit that can be baited around the board is a mistake in any game under 2k. i bring them in my 2250p army but only in a small unit and because i have a cavalry thing going on.

the varghulf is nice and all but 175 points for a hunter? as mentioned fell bats fill that slot way way better. the other reason i dislike the varghulf is probably because i roll crappy with him. even on the hatred rerolls. but hey thats just me :P

dire wolves are great.

and yes gokamok and I disagree about wraiths a lot. I feel that in todays magic heavy environment you cant take them under 5 strong. preferably 6. and if you do you need a vamp with the helm of commandment close by to really make them shine. they often dont do much for me. banshees are just plain rubbish. most units i face profit from there generals LD which is 9 mostly. meaning you have to roll 8 or over to let the scream do anything. thats under 50% meaning youll mostly just be doing nothing and sacrificing 2 attacks to get that ability. wow usefull....

Gokamok
07-10-2008, 10:10
The thing that really makes a Varghulf stand out from Fell Bats is its ability to deal with light/medium cavalry, chariots and small melee units. Fell Bats tend to die a lot against such targets, while the Varghulf will either break them on the charge, or kill them over a few turns. Dark Riders for instance will just munch a unit of bats, but they'll be pretty scared of a Varghulf:D

Gharof von Carstein
07-10-2008, 10:16
break them over a few turns? taking into account you throw reasonably well on your varghulf you'll still only land around 3 attacks on average a turn, barring saves. he brings no other combat res to the table. so if your opponent outnumbers you (he will), have a banner (he often will) and has anything else going for him, or saves one of those wounds caused you push or lose. if you push and he has a musician you'll lose to 1 standard. fail that regen save once or twice and that varghulf isnt worth it anymore. not to mention the wounds that might be caused on him from counterattack.

Von Wibble
07-10-2008, 17:02
The thing that really makes a Varghulf stand out from Fell Bats is its ability to deal with light/medium cavalry, chariots and small melee units. Fell Bats tend to die a lot against such targets, while the Varghulf will either break them on the charge, or kill them over a few turns. Dark Riders for instance will just munch a unit of bats, but they'll be pretty scared of a Varghulf:D

Bad example. Last time I faced a Varghulf it was my dark riders that beat it. Lots of hatred attacks on charge with the Varghulf having lost 1 wound to shooting means you don't have to be that lucky to cause 3 wounds before regeneration. And if that happens the varghulf doesn't get to strike back as regenerates I believe are taken at the end of the round. Varghulf's poor I and lack of armour hurt it in this regard as against any hard hitter it never gets to attack.

I agree that there are however some specific units are beaten by varghulf and not fell bats. However when the varghulf is twice the price and a rare choice (black coach and wraiths scare me more, also blood knights if led by character with blood drinker) it just doesn't seem worth it. Now if the Varghulf had the War Hydra stats.....

Caine Mangakahia
07-10-2008, 19:42
The black coach is a must have IMO. I usually sacrifice a couple of PD from my lord to it to soup it up, and if you can get this sucker ethereal its awesome, flying is just gravy. It has a huge scare factor , and is much more durable than a varghulf for only 25 points.
I always take the banner of Drakenhof, it is a huge sacrifice in points, but keeping your troops in the fight plus being able to regen combat res means less dice are needed to raise losses, beware flaming and killing blow attacks!

kramplarv
07-10-2008, 19:55
von wibble:

bad example. you can't say that a unit of hatred guys charing the vhargulf is the normal procedure. in 90% of the cases the vhargulf will charge anythin. and if anything happens to be fast cav, small units of skirmiserhs,infnatry,wizards, warmachines etc it will tear it apart.

a vhargulf does 3 wounds normally to anything with T3, 4+ sv.

a unit of 3 bats wont kill that wizard standing in a unit with 2 scrolls. but the vhargulf does. almost everytime.

apbevan
07-10-2008, 22:44
Von Wibble: you need to check up on your Regen rules. Regen is a save that happens after armour and ward.
As -> Ws -> Regen save -> Take wound. so your varghulf will always fight if it lives.

Gharof: a Varghulf that only Lands 3 attack when he has WS5 and hatred is doing poorly. Most light calvary will need 4's to hit, and 5's to wound on the charge or 6's if charged, its rare that my varghulf takes more than 1 permanent if that. I don't face many light cav that use banners or champions.

The Varghulf is the Cheapest and best rounded Rare choice of the VC. It fits in any army and you can't go wrong picking it.
The other 3 rares all have specific uses, when used right is more devastating than a varghulf but less forgiving when used poorly or facing the wrong opponent, I.E Cairn Wraiths vs Daemons.

I loved my Cairn Wraiths until the release of the Daemons because having 250+ points tied up in very weak unit hurts alot, so I don't include them in a all comers list anymore.

Black Coach is great, its high toughness, armour save and ward save make it very resilient and its ward will help protect it against st7 hits. It is expensive for chariot but it is good and can become amazing when fully powered.

Blood Knights are extremely good but expensive. They become the focus of your army making or breaking you.

Gokamok
08-10-2008, 09:49
(...)a vhargulf does 3 wounds normally to anything with T3, 4+ sv.(...)


To be exact, it does 3.09 wounds in the first round of combat, 2.31 in subsequent rounds, assuming opponents WS<5:)

Gokamok
08-10-2008, 10:02
Bad example. Last time I faced a Varghulf it was my dark riders that beat it. Lots of hatred attacks on charge with the Varghulf having lost 1 wound to shooting means you don't have to be that lucky to cause 3 wounds before regeneration. (...)

This is not intended as a personal attack on you, but rather as a request to the Warseer community as a whole: Please stop using random anecdotes as evidence!

Mathhammer, Dark Riders charge Varghulf, 4 models can get in B2B:

Attacks from Riders:
4 S4 attacks hitting on 4+ with reroll => 3 hits.
3 S4 hits wounding on 5+ => 1 wound.
1 wound regenerated on 4+ = 0.5 wounds.

Attacks from Steeds:
4 S3 attacks hitting on 4+ with reroll (do the steeds get hatred too?) => 3 hits.
3 S3 hits wounding on 6+ => 0.5 wounds.
0.5 wounds regenerated on 4+ = 0.25 wounds.

So, a grand total of 0.75 wounds caused by a unit of charging Dark Riders on average, means that in the quoted anecdote, the Dark Riders did 4(!) times the average number of wounds! I'd say that requires quite a bit of luck.

Oh, and the Varghulf would cause 3.57 wounds in return, on average forcing Insane Courage against a unit of 5 Dark Riders;)

Conotor
08-10-2008, 11:46
The book that gives u the dance spell.

orkz222
08-10-2008, 16:25
The regen banner WOOT :D

Vile Druchii
08-10-2008, 18:22
Just a quick question, I'm sorry if this has come up before and been answered, but I'm a n00by-n00bster!

The Evocation of Death rules for the Black Coach say that "At the start of every magic phase..." does that include your opponents? So can you attempt to absorb their pool dice and the dice of their wizards within 6"?

Also, does anyone use an Abyssal Terror? I've never seen one brought to the table, even in huge battles.

Back on topic, I would say that I find the Helm of Commandment, Crown of the Damned, the Book of Arkhan and Banner of Endless Nightmare (on a Skeleton unit) are my usual must-haves!

Gokamok
08-10-2008, 18:37
Just a quick question, I'm sorry if this has come up before and been answered, but I'm a n00by-n00bster!

The Evocation of Death rules for the Black Coach say that "At the start of every magic phase..." does that include your opponents? So can you attempt to absorb their pool dice and the dice of their wizards within 6"?

Also, does anyone use an Abyssal Terror? I've never seen one brought to the table, even in huge battles.

Back on topic, I would say that I find the Helm of Commandment, Crown of the Damned, the Book of Arkhan and Banner of Endless Nightmare (on a Skeleton unit) are my usual must-haves!

You're damn right to apologize for going so much offtopic;)

As for the Black Coach, the answer is "yes". That's why the Black Coach wants to marry the Blue Scribes of Tzeentch:evilgrin:

I'll agree that Helm of Commandment is basically too good not to take, and I've always included it in my VC armies. Book of Arkhan is also great, but I'm not that hooked on bound items, since most players tend to save a few dispel dice to counter those.

Banner of Endless Nightmares is only slightly worse than the War Banner (which is awesome), if you field multiple units of skellies with magic banners, then it could be an option.

I never use Crown of the Damned, and I think I've explained why in 15+ different posts on Warseer, but I'll gladly do it again:
Your general (as in, the guy casting half your spells and the guy that's not allowed to die) becomes subject to stupidity, meaning that you risk having him (and his unit) stumbling forward and not doing what he/they are supposed to. If you enjoy that, O&G is a nice army with plenty of odd happenings like that, but I prefer to keep such things far away from my VC:D

Vile Druchii
08-10-2008, 18:47
Hee hee! Thanks. I want to marry my Black Coach now!

I don't mind bound spells. If my opponent's are saving dice for them, that means they aren't using them on my actual spells, so either way it makes my tummy all warm inside. I get what you mean about the endless nightmare banner, but I just like the idea. It's a bit more fluffy than clone War banners appearing all over the place, but probably isn't any more useful.

However, Crown of the Damned is pretty good, and you don't have to give it to your Lord. A tooled up Wight King or Hero level Vampire can make good use of it, although I prefer the Accursed Armour on my Wight King. If you've got a Helm of Command Vamp hanging about, and have the King in a unit with the Banner of the Barrows, he's still hitting most things on 3's, and it takes an awful lot to get rid of him, as he's got Toughness 6 and 3 wounds. Most characters will struggle in a challenge with him.

Nedar
09-10-2008, 04:36
As stated a number of times, there are not must have units or magic items.

That being said, I would personally never go out the door without two units of Dire Wolves...and very rarely without my trusty Vargulf. Wolves alone can win you games if you know how to use them, so if you are new player I would suggest learning how to re-direct charges and 1" plug units you want to control.

Beyond that you NEED three units (2250) of skeletons, ghouls, and/or zombies. I personally run with one of each, as they each have their own uses, and I do buy a unit of zombies contrary to what many people claim you should avoid. It saves me 40 points, and gives me a nice place to dump power dice if I don't want to cast anything else as I do not run mastery powers.

All of our specials are useful, Black Knights are tactically amazing with their ethereal movement and Spirit Hosts are great for tying up enemy units though expensive. As stated, all rares are good...I've used the Coach and it is a great asset but I prefer wraiths with a banshee overall.

Good luck with your undead legion.

Jagosaja
09-10-2008, 05:08
The way to go is to take Helm of Commandment. Simply makes your not-so-expensive troops way better than their points cost. Imagine Zombies hitting almost anything on 3+, and if that is not good enough imagine Ghouls do that with 2 poisonous attacks.

Second thing good to be taken is a necro with Book of Arkhan and Vanhels. That is also a valid combination.

The third combo that comes to mind is on foot or mounted Wights with Banner of Barrows. Or a Standard of Strigos. These greatly increase their output.

Combine all these together and you have monster units.

If you have solo characters but not mounted on monsters, excellent protection is Wristbands of The Black Gold. A Ward save of 3+ against anything ranged is amazing, and adding some armour save to that makes an increadibly tough character.

Personally I also like to take Forbidden Lore as it gives me required spells for the battle. I also mostly use Lore of Beasts as it is easy to cast and has great tactical spells.

Just my two pennies.

apbevan
09-10-2008, 16:36
Nedar I have been having troubles using Dire wolves especially because IoN only heals 1 wound.

I can't use them to redirect without killing them because they can't flee
The best use I can think for them is Flank Charges and adding to outnumbering but because they are a small unit they easily die to shooting.

What is the 1" plug tactic you mention? if you don't mind elaborating.

Von Wibble
11-10-2008, 10:17
von wibble:

bad example. you can't say that a unit of hatred guys charing the vhargulf is the normal procedure. in 90% of the cases the vhargulf will charge anythin. and if anything happens to be fast cav, small units of skirmiserhs,infnatry,wizards, warmachines etc it will tear it apart.

As will many other, cheaper choices. And most cavalry can expect to get the drop on the varghulf because of the fact that VC have to advance with no shooting - the defensive enemy therefore gets initiative handed to him. If the varghulf is trying to get a support charge in with another unit it has to wait longer, also increasing chances of facing a charge.

a vhargulf does 3 wounds normally to anything with T3, 4+ sv.

So needs support against a ranked unit.

a unit of 3 bats wont kill that wizard standing in a unit with 2 scrolls. but the vhargulf does. almost everytime.

Assuming it can get at the wizard - my scroll caddies tend to hide behind other ranked units. Not a problem for bats.

Gokamok - I got the regenerate rules wrong - I believe I actually did twice the number of wound before regeneration. I was therefore lucky enough to do 1 more wound than expected. That said, having checked regeneration more thoroughly (ironically my opponent told me it was this way and I figured, fair enough!) I won't be charing dark riders into a varghulf unless it has 1 wound left now. I still don't consider the varghulf essential - which was kinda the point I was making.

apbevan - not certain myself re plugging but one dirty tactic is to place them 1" away from the enemy unit covering about half of their frontage, at an angle (but not so to give him a flank charge) The enemy charges - he changes facing exposing his flank (say to a unit of black guard) He doesn't charge - he can't move. Also in this scenario there is nothing to prevent you placing another unit ready to charge the part of the unit you can see.

kloudfire
13-10-2008, 01:26
The debate rage on and what I am seeing is that most everthing is usable...
I guess the easier question is there and this that flat doesn't cut it? This excludes zombie of course because of that debate...

Here is what I got and let me know if anything is not good enough to see the table.

2 Vampires

2 Mounted Necros

2 Walking Necros

Wight Kings Mounted w/ Spear

20 zombies

60 skeletons 30 w/ spears 30 w/ HW

6 Ghouls

10 Dire wolves

1 Corpse Cart

1 Black Coach

1 Varghulf

kramplarv
13-10-2008, 21:30
just stay out of the necros unless you really really want a guaranteed van hels dance :D
otherwise you can sue anything. except ghouls as they are 10+ minimum :p