PDA

View Full Version : 2k Empire



Tsear
06-10-2008, 06:36
I tried out O&G, and managed to win the game with them, but want to survey a few other armies before I decide definitively on one. I always liked the fluff behind empire, and their detachment system is pretty cool. Here's a list I came up with:

EDIT: Updated list in post #6.

Vam2tic
06-10-2008, 07:02
i would be tempted to drop the normal captain to get a war alter for the arch lector.i'm not an empire player but people at my local GW don't seem to like great swords. if your using them as part of a theme them fine but maybe drop the for some more detachments and pistoliers

maze ironheart
06-10-2008, 09:16
i would be tempted to drop the normal captain to get a war alter for the arch lector.i'm not an empire player but people at my local GW don't seem to like great swords. if your using them as part of a theme them fine but maybe drop the for some more detachments and pistoliers

I'd say drop the holy relic on the arch lector as he hasd 2 blessings loads of chance to get a ward save and save points.Why not turn one of your charecters into a pegusus knight have him destroy enemy warmachines and missle troops and lone wizards it works in my empire army.Also you can't have sergants in the detactments so drop the sergants on them and have your wizard drop the staff for another despell scroll as you would struggle againast magic heavy armys with just 5 despell dice trust me I've been on the receiving end of a 15 power dice daemon army I would then say drop the BSB for some pistoliers.

Tsear
06-10-2008, 19:44
15 power dice is probably more than I'll regularly face; with 6 dispel dice and one scroll, I held out decently against my friend's max-magic TK army. I figure that if the army facing me has really spent that much on spells, it's hopeless to try and stop all of it, but I can try and beat them in the other phases. The staff, on the other hand, helps me get more spells/chants off against armies with similar amounts of dispel dice as me.

I like the greatswords on paper because I can ignore ranks, flanks, and all that jazz when I play with them, and have a very hard unit that can do a lot of damage as well as serving as an anvil. With my general and a BSB nearby, the greatswords will never have to do worse than re-roll a LD9 test to stay in the fight, which seems not that unlikely.

I'm also not too sure why pistoliers are so great. It seems you'll get one round of shooting with them, and if your enemy doesn't run you're screwed. They're useful for hunting down things in the back of the enemy's army, yes, but does that justify their cost and a special choice?

Then again, I'm a complete noob. If my reasoning is flawed, please, please tell me why :)

Zoat
06-10-2008, 20:07
Pretty good list I think!

If these are the models you have and you just want to try the Empire I'd say go ahead and have a game!

If you want to tweek the list consider:

* Rod of Power for the wizard. Makes him more versatile.

* Swordsmen instead of spearmen/halberdiers for parent units. It's sad, but they are better against most opponents.

* Adding a detachment for the greatsword.

* Replacing the captain with a unit of vanilla knights + something

* Replacing the griffon banner with the warbanner. This way he can sometimes deploy with the knights.

* Making the IC knights 6 big. Even 5 if you want a character here.

* Making the flaggelants unit smaller unless you intend them as a main combat unit. Perhaps 15 for a decent speed bump.

* Splitting the handgunners into two detachments. Less panic, excellent throw-away unit! Me, I usually use Hellblasters instead of handgunners. Risky, but they have less frontage, punch harder, are harder to kill and turn 360 degrees and shoot.

These are ideas based on my own game. Maybe they don't fit your theme/game plan so use them as you see fit! :)

And btw. No upgrades allowed on detachments!

Tsear
07-10-2008, 05:53
Thanks for the advice guys. Here's the second version of the list:

24x Greatsword, Champion, Standard Bearer: 264
Detachment:10x Halberdiers:50
Cannon:100
Cannon:100
8x Pistolier, Outrider w/Repeater Pistol, Musician:168

26x Swordsmen, Full Command:181
Detachment: 10x Halberdiers: 50
25x Swordsmen, Full Command:175
Detachment: 10x Halberdiers: 50
10x Handgunners, Marksman, Repeater Handgun:100
7x Knightly Order, Lance and Shield, Preceptor: 177

Arch Lector of Sigmar, Great Weapon
Van Horstman's Speculum
Armor of Meteoric Iron
Holy Relic

231

Captain of the Empire, Barded Warhorse, Full Plate
BSB
War banner

112

Battle Wizard, Horse
Dispel Scroll
Wizard Staff

110

Captain of the Empire, Shield, Lance, Barded Warhorse
Dawn Armor
Sigil of Sigmar

128

2000

Some decent changes in here. I decided I was sort of half-assing it with the fanatics and got rid of them. The knights became normal knights, and their special slot has been used for pistoliers - I thought about them and I think I see why they're good now. The BSB has been given a war banner instead of the gryphon banner, my parent units are now all swordsmen. My detachments got fixed, and I added a detachment to the Greatswords, where I also increased the unit size and added a standard.

I still want to keep my heroes more or less the same, though. I think it's cool having a Captain with a re-rollable 1+ save :evilgrin:, and my Lector probably won't be able to cast a 4+ ward save on himself too often against any army with 4 or so dispel dice, so I feel ok with him keeping the icon.

maze ironheart
07-10-2008, 08:46
Thanks for the advice guys. Here's the second version of the list:

24x Greatsword, Champion, Standard Bearer: 264
Detachment:10x Halberdiers:50
Cannon:100
Cannon:100
8x Pistolier, Outrider w/Repeater Pistol, Musician:168

26x Swordsmen, Full Command:181
Detachment: 10x Halberdiers: 50
25x Swordsmen, Full Command:175
Detachment: 10x Halberdiers: 50
10x Handgunners, Marksman, Repeater Handgun:100
7x Knightly Order, Lance and Shield, Preceptor: 177

Arch Lector of Sigmar, Great Weapon
Van Horstman's Speculum
Armor of Meteoric Iron
Holy Relic

231

Captain of the Empire, Barded Warhorse, Full Plate
BSB
War banner

112

Battle Wizard, Horse
Dispel Scroll
Wizard Staff

110

Captain of the Empire, Shield, Lance, Barded Warhorse
Dawn Armor
Sigil of Sigmar

128

2000

Some decent changes in here. I decided I was sort of half-assing it with the fanatics and got rid of them. The knights became normal knights, and their special slot has been used for pistoliers - I thought about them and I think I see why they're good now. The BSB has been given a war banner instead of the gryphon banner, my parent units are now all swordsmen. My detachments got fixed, and I added a detachment to the Greatswords, where I also increased the unit size and added a standard.

I still want to keep my heroes more or less the same, though. I think it's cool having a Captain with a re-rollable 1+ save :evilgrin:, and my Lector probably won't be able to cast a 4+ ward save on himself too often against any army with 4 or so dispel dice, so I feel ok with him keeping the icon.


I would still say drop the holy relic on the arch lector it's a waste he gets 2 blessings so loads of chance to get his save and maybe drop the wizards staff for ether another despell scroll or a rod of power but every thing else is ok.

Makarion
07-10-2008, 08:57
* Ditch the champion on the pistoliers, and you could afford to drop a few models out of the unit if you want.
* The knightly order unit of 7 is too large to go in one line, and too expensive to have a few stragglers in the back. The preceptor is dubious. Make it a unit of 5 with just a musician.
* Give the arch lector some kind of magical weapon. It's really sad to face a VC army with enough dispel dice to counter his prayers, and he can't hurt the wraiths.
* Consider the war alter, please. There's no reason not to, really, unless you just hate the model.
* Wizard Staff? Get a second dispel scroll. The guy's a scroll caddy, after all.

As an aside, it's highly dubious you'll be able to cast any spells / prayers with just an arch lector and a level 1 wizard, so I'd replace the arch lector with a general.

Zoat
07-10-2008, 13:07
I think the list looks better. As has been pointed out some units seem larger than optimal, but you'll figure that out when you get a few games. Unit sizes also depends a bit on your gaming environment.

One think I'd like to highlight is the magic phase. As it is I feel it is unfocussed.

I would suggest:

1) Dirt cheap scroll caddie. Lvl 1 on foot + 2 scrolls.

OR

2) lvl 2 wizard, Rod of Power + 2 bound items.


The first option is cheap and will get you through the first 2-3 magic phases.

The second is more versatile (my favourite word these days) and not much more expensive. Starting out you have 4PD + 5DD. With the rod this gets transformed to either 6PD + 3DD or 2PD + 7DD depending on the situation.

I usually go with the second setup. When I have magic superiority I get 4 bound spells + 2 spells cast with 3 dice each. A good magic phase! When magically inferior I have 7DD which is not bad.

maze ironheart
07-10-2008, 13:14
Ok ether go with a scroll caddie or have a power box wizard or both my army has a LV1 scroll caddie while my other mage is a power caster he holds the rod of power my magic phase is avarage in the first turn but in the second it's alot better.

Herminard
07-10-2008, 20:39
I think your armylist is sound, fun, and opts for a tactical game. I say turn your deaf ear to the ones screaming for a War Altar, and find a playstyle that fits you. Having said that, the playstyle of the static gunline is one the Empire does really well, in all its horrid boredom - so if you are in to this hobby for the fun of it - I wouldnt go there. And seeing your armylist it seems you really want to "play the game".

A few things;

- you questioned the use of pistoliers. Key here is the Fast Cav rule. Basically this a) makes them very mobile b) allows march and shoot c) allows 360 degree shooting d) allowes them to move and shoot if they rally from a failed charge. Im my opinion they do this best as a 97-point unit of 5 with a musician (giving a +1 to rally). At 168 points I start getting scared of losing points, and find myself not using them to their best agressive performance.

This can be used to great effect for harassment, and can very often assist in redirecting charges that you *dont* want your fighting blocks to take - and believe me - there are more powerful creatures in the Warhammer World than a soldier of the Imperial army.

- The Empire really does make a good all-comers all-phases army, and as such they can always participate in the game - and most of the time they can exploit some weakness of the opponent. A level 2 mage with the Rod of Power (and if you like risks - Magestaff) really adds alot to your list in the magicphase. Even if they are cost-effective enough for magical defence, I find lvl1 scrollcaddies both boring and inflexible.

- Finally, the achilles heel of the empire is the psychology. Your nice big block of Greatswords arent stubborn anymore if they are outnumbered by fearcausers, and your average ld7 (with a 57% or so chance of success) can really cause havoc once units start getting panic. In no way does it make them unplayable, but you have to prepare for it. You might fail that crucial flank charge for instance, so everything counts by the numbers. Also, the Icon of Magnus is a really really great item :)

Cheers!

Tsear
07-10-2008, 21:30
I think your armylist is sound, fun, and opts for a tactical game. I say turn your deaf ear to the ones screaming for a War Altar, and find a playstyle that fits you. Having said that, the playstyle of the static gunline is one the Empire does really well, in all its horrid boredom - so if you are in to this hobby for the fun of it - I wouldnt go there. And seeing your armylist it seems you really want to "play the game".

I've heard a thing or two about gunline armies with maxed out steam tanks and such, but I'm not really interested in those. Does Empire still play out ok when you play a non-gunline army?

Aside from that, thanks for the advice again. I guess I do need to toss a magic weapon on the lector, so the Icon will have to come off. I'll make it a token Sword of Striking or Might.

In defense of some of my choices, I'm taking the lector over the general for two reasons. Both are more than good enough against random troops, both give LD9, both are hard to kill. The general, with his generally higher stats, is better against scary targets such as Dragons, but the lector benefits much more from Van Horstman's Speculum and is consequently a better character killer. I'm willing to say being worse at killing monsters is a fair trade for being better at taking out heroes, so the lector's about even with the general so far.

But the lector also has two prayers, which can eat up some dispel dice or even power dice as the opponent attempts to dispel them. More importantly, the lector also gives me two more dispel dice, so I generally think he's a better choice for this army.

I'm not sold on the War Altar. I want to use the lector as a general, and I won't be able to effectively use him inside of a unit if he ends up sitting on a giant chariot base. The lector will have to run around on his own. Aside from that, I don't know if one more bound spell is worth it for 100 points.

The 4+ save and magic resistance is nice, but it only about counteracts the loss of survivability the lector suffers from being by himself. If I take the War Altar and ever miss a charge or get baited, getting countercharged the next turn, the lector is a goner. Even if he doesn't take any wounds, he'll get killed by rank bonus and standards alone. I'm not a perfect player, and don't really want to chance losing a ~300 point unit that easily.

As for the pistoliers, their size is a bit larger than might be expected partly for a few reasons. First, I'd much rather take, say, two 5-man pistolier units than one 10-man pistolier unit, but I don't have the special slots open for that. Secondly, I doubt the pistoliers suffer from diminishing returns, so long as you don't make their unit unreasonably large. If I could get 5 horses within 8" to blast the enemy, I could probably do the same with 8 horses. Finally, the eight-man pistoliers don't turn tail and run at the first sign of arrows, which is something that's bugged me about fast cavalry before.

So, changes to my army:

-Lector loses the Icon, gets a 15pt magic weapon.
-Knights squad size reduced to 5.
-Wizard becomes Lvl 2, gets a rod of power.

With no other changes, this leaves me at 1954 points. Any ideas on how to spend the ~50 I've freed up?

Edit: Forgot one last thing - the champion on the pistoliers has got to stay. He costs a bit under twice as much as a regular pistolier, but does as much damage as six. Quite a bargain.

Herminard
07-10-2008, 23:29
Concerning the War Altar. Pointswise it is a fair deal IMHO. Mind that it also makes you unbreakable, so ranks and banners doesnt make a dent.

As for the lector, im testing out the same build as you actually - apart from mine using the white cloak instead (5+ ward, 2+ if fire attack). This also leaves me room for a biting blade as i keep running into woodelfs and etherals. Otherwise, 6 points for a great weapon aint too bad either.

Leftover points... hm.. pointsfiddeling - the noble art of spending *all* the points ^^
..Drats, going over your list, I found 15 more points. See, lining up a full battleline like yours takes alot of space, and deployment can get pretty cramped. None the less if you field detachments of halberds 5 wide and 2 deep. This also creates "soft spots" in your battleline, that opponents will take advantages of. How about 3 wide 3 deep? Makes them very manouverable and saves space - and 15 points.. After all, its the parentunit that have the ranks, your flankers/detaches are just removing the ones for the opponent.

This leaves you a healthy amount of fiddle points. I have grown to love my Warriorpriest on barded warhorse with Icon of Magnus and a sword of X (~150 points), leading a unit of knights (and perhaps even BSB). Said knights could be given a banner (16p) and a Steel Standard (20p) - its fun and good tactical value to add d3" to the charge *smiles*

Apart from that, I also find detachments of 5 archer skirmishers incredibly useful when fielding blocks. Very good throw-away unit to redirect charges. A bargain for only 40p, and it adds a few dice to roll in the shootingphase - not that it will kill a gnoblar.

Cheers!

Zoat
08-10-2008, 06:01
50 pts....

A few ideas:

2 minimal detachments of free company for your main units. These really add some tactical options when things gets close!

5 archers. Not much, but some protection against enemy fast cav.

Maybe a bound spell if you can squeeze it in.


If you are still open to manipulate the list I'd like to see another unit of knights. This way you can deploy both your BSB and the lone captain in a unit of knights sometimes. For example if the enemy has a really exposed flank.

So something like this:

Captain with horse and lance kit. Ring of Fury (correct name?)
5 knights with standard. (musician optional)

For this you need to shave of some points here and there. As the previous poster said 5 pistoliers w. musician works fine. You can probably loose a few infantry men too without loosing combat effectiveness on your main units.


This being said I like the list already! Get some games and see how it plays! ;)