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Tonedogbf110
06-10-2008, 11:28
I had a situation yesterday where:

I had just taken out a high elf repeater bolt thrower with a chariot and a unit of orcs.

Orcs facing frontal, and the chariot stuck in the side, as there was no enemy to run down after creaming them, I stayed put.

Next turn I declare a charge into the side of another unit of elves with the chariot. The orcs roll a 6 on animosity, forcing a charge, Technically this would run them towards the nearest 'VISIBLE' enemy, and smack into the chariot preventing its charge.

however the orcs had no visible enemy unit as they were all behind and out of sight.

would I be right in saying they then just move as normal and not block the chariots charge?

Thanks in advance.

Chicago Slim
06-10-2008, 11:36
The rules are pretty clearly spelled out, actually: When a unit rolls a Waagh, it moves 1d6" towards the nearest enemy, or straight forward if there are no visible enemies.

This in no way "forces a charge", unless the d6" of movement takes you into contact with enemies.

After the Waagh/Animosity rolls are all done and resolved, you move into the Declare Charges phase.


So, in the case you describe, the orc unit should have rolled and resolved their Waagh test BEFORE you declared any charges. In the (very likely) case that that Waagh brought the orcs up so that they were blocking the chariot, then the chariot will be unable to declare a charge (since it can't see any enemy, at the beginning of the Declare Charges phase).

Avian
06-10-2008, 12:06
would I be right in saying they then just move as normal and not block the chariots charge?'
What would happen depends on how the chariot and orc unit were placed relative to each other. If the chariot was beside the orc unit, they might end up moving in front of it and blocking its line of sight. If the chariot was already in front of the orc unit, they would probably not move because the chariot was blocking their path, and the chariot could still charge as normal.

Tonedogbf110
06-10-2008, 12:54
Thanks guys that sort of clears it up.

For the record, the orcs where about 1cm overlapped and in base contact with the chariot, there was sufficeint space for the chariot to charge the elves however as it was slightly infront.

so if what you are saying Avian the chariot should have been able to declare charge as the orcs could not move forward?

this happened twice in the game, believe it or not I managed to rout my enemies general and Star dragon from combat rez with a massive unit of gobbos and a unit of orcs (opponents mistake for charging into both units).

After failing to run down the enemy we were still set to chase him down next turn (my turn after the combat) the gobbos rolled 6 and smacked into the back of the orcs. My opponent said I could not move the orcs at all as the gobbos had run into them.

Not sure this is right, so some clarification into this would be great so i can resolve this.

As it happens I managed to Slay the dragon on the turn after anyway, which I was chuffed about, grinding the game to a draw. Wood Elves are extremely tough for any orc army and I was well satisfied with this result.

Braad
06-10-2008, 14:59
If I get it right, what Avian means is, the chariot blocks the animosity-move of the boyz. Then they stop and do not obscure the line of sight of the boyz.
Like in this graph:
C= chariot
B= Boyz
X= Where the enemy was

CCCCXX
CCCCXX
...BBBBBB
...BBBBBB

The boyz are facing upwards, the chariot is facing right.
In this case, if the boyz roll a 6, they cannot make a move, because they immidiately bump into the chariot. The chariot's line of sight is not obscured and can charge.

In this situation:

CCCCXX
CCCCXX
........BBBBBB
........BBBBBB

If now the boyz roll a 6 and move, they move in front of the chariot, and it cannot charge.

---EDIT---

If after animosity this situation occurs:

CCCC
CCCC.BBBBB
........BBBBB

And the chariot does have line of sight, it can only charge if the move it can make is completely legal.
This means: It can turn once on the charge. In this case, immidiately to steer clear of the boyz. And then after this turn it must move straight forward for 14" (it was a boar chariot, right?) and touch an enemy unit. Then he can make the free wheel to allign to the enemy.

If it must turn 2 times (not including the free allign) due to the boyz standing in front, the charge is not legal, thus not succesfull and cannot be made.

Tonedogbf110
06-10-2008, 15:42
The situation was as drawn in your first diagram Braad.

after the turn the bolt thrower was removed as it was destroyed.
so then the orcs roll 6 on their next animosity and cant move due to the chariot blockage. correct?

but the chariot can still charge as normal.

My opponent was saying that because the orcs would hit the chariot it would not be able to move, Which I thought was wrong, I mean orcs are stupid alright, but even they wouldnt get in the way of a roaring chariot.

the same as they wouldnt be stopped in their tracks if goblins ran into the back of them, the gobbos would stop and the orcs move as normal.

glad thats sorted.

for reference and proof, do you know which pages/section explains this in the Manhammer bible?

Gazak Blacktoof
06-10-2008, 17:35
The "collision" rules are no longer part of the animosity rules for this edition. Previous versions of the animosity rule dictated that if two friendly units collided they couldn't do anything for the remainder of the turn**.

A version of the "collision" rules are still part of the stupidity rules in the BRB though.


**Something along those lines anyway, old rules that have been superseded aren't relevant to the current discussion.

Braad
06-10-2008, 18:58
Yes, indeed, their lines would become messy and needed the turn to fix it up. I remember something like that being written in the 6th edition book.
But yeah, its not there anymore. So, in this case, the chariot can charge.

I don't have my books here to check, but if it doesn't say in the new book that they have to stop, then they don't have to.

It happens a lot. Because there was a rule once, people nearly expect the rule to be there still and won't take it otherwise.

warlord hack'a
06-10-2008, 20:42
fun part is: even the orcs can charge as long as they can see and reach ana enemy and the chariot declares first: as the chariot will move out of the way of the orcs path their path is free to charge. So in Braad's diagram: when there is an enemy above the BBB's then the BBB's can charge as well..

Tonedogbf110
07-10-2008, 09:19
Thanks Guys.

Its a shame, because I would have well and truly crushed my mates High Elves if this had been resolved at the time.

he would have lost his dragon in turn 2 leaving his entire flank wide open.
And I had 2 boar chariots, a unit of 25 Orcs and 40 Goblins and 10 goblin wolf riders primed to thunder down the left! and they had tree cover from all his nasty archers! :P

He so badly needed to lose as well, as he boasts his 100% success rate with the elves. A crushing defeat would have humbled him.

we settled on a draw in the end, but at least I rest assured that I killed his dragon and inflicted his heaviest losses to date.

DeathlessDraich
07-10-2008, 11:16
C= chariot
B= Boyz
X= Where the enemy was

CCCCXX
CCCCXX
...BBBBBB
...BBBBBB

The boyz are facing upwards, the chariot is facing right.
In this case, if the boyz roll a 6, they cannot make a move, because they immidiately bump into the chariot. The chariot's line of sight is not obscured and can charge.

Here's a related question ( a question of opinion) for the above diag, modified as below:

After passing animosity, the chariot declares a charge. The chariot has to pivot immediately to reach the charged unit.
Modify the diagram to show:
The chariot only touches another unit (i.e. B) during the pivot move but *not immediately after* pivoting.

What are the exact rules/restrictions for a pivot move?
In particular, can a pivoting unit move *over* a friendly unit?

The rules suggest in one situation that it can!
Can that be used in all pivot moves?

Braad
07-10-2008, 13:25
No. When pivoting, you should rotate around the centre, and you main not go over another unit (except the fanatic). Also, if one is placed exactly alongside the table edge, he can never turn away.

But that is according to the exact letter of the rules AFAIK them.
I never seen anyone playing this without allowing this bit of freedom, and allowing such a pivot.
It would be totally not realistic.

phobia
07-10-2008, 16:03
No. When pivoting, you should rotate around the centre, and you main not go over another unit (except the fanatic). Also, if one is placed exactly alongside the table edge, he can never turn away.

But that is according to the exact letter of the rules AFAIK them.
I never seen anyone playing this without allowing this bit of freedom, and allowing such a pivot.
It would be totally not realistic.


Certainly the intent is that a pivot should always be done. During a charge move, it is common to need to adjust the position of more than just the charging unit. The rules do go into some detail in this regard, though, they do not describe the specific instance as it is above.

If slightly adjusting the positioning of other nearby units is required I'm sure the involved players could easily come to an agreement on which to adjust and how to adjust them. If they could not come to such an agreement then, it's likely that this rule is not the worst problem they have.

I'd say under normal circumstances however, during normal movement, that pivoting a unit when there was not space for that unit, is not the intent; there is no provision for adjusting other units during normal movement and two units may never occupy the same space.

Tonedogbf110
08-10-2008, 12:32
Just for the record Phobia, Chariots dont roll animosity, its a unit of less than 5.

anything above 5 unit strength has to roll.

DeathlessDraich
08-10-2008, 22:05
No. When pivoting, you should rotate around the centre, and you main not go over another unit (except the fanatic). Also, if one is placed exactly alongside the table edge, he can never turn away.

But that is according to the exact letter of the rules AFAIK them.


See below**



I'd say under normal circumstances however, during normal movement, that pivoting a unit when there was not space for that unit, is not the intent; there is no provision for adjusting other units during normal movement and two units may never occupy the same space.

** The rules do not *always* disallow a unit from moving over another.

1) Consider pg 43 of the BRB which clearly shows that this is allowed for a pivot.

The question now is - Is this to be allowed only for that particular pivot or for all pivots.
This no sub-section that defines/explains the pivot as a move unlike wheeling or turning.

Most players pivot in the same way as described in Monsters and Chariots.
If this can then be generalised to all pivots, then it lends creedence to a claim that the 'overlapping pivot' can similarly be generalised to all pivots. :eek:

2) Another circumstance of a model overlapping another model's space (possibly) occurs in a character charging out of a skirmishing unit.
This is being discussed in another thread.
see http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2994843#post2994843

phobia
09-10-2008, 18:24
See below**



** The rules do not *always* disallow a unit from moving over another.

1) Consider pg 43 of the BRB which clearly shows that this is allowed for a pivot.

The question now is - Is this to be allowed only for that particular pivot or for all pivots.
This no sub-section that defines/explains the pivot as a move unlike wheeling or turning.

Most players pivot in the same way as described in Monsters and Chariots.
If this can then be generalised to all pivots, then it lends creedence to a claim that the 'overlapping pivot' can similarly be generalised to all pivots. :eek:

2) Another circumstance of a model overlapping another model's space (possibly) occurs in a character charging out of a skirmishing unit.
This is being discussed in another thread.
see http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2994843#post2994843

In this case, the other units positions are never adjusted to make room for the pivoting unit. Additionally, there is clear result, since they rolled less on the follow up roll than the fleeing unit did on the roll to flee, they cannot catch them even if the measurement from their new position would allow it.

I would be wary of this under the circumstances of normal movement, as a way to gain one or more inches of additional movement.

phobia
09-10-2008, 18:36
Just for the record Phobia, Chariots dont roll animosity, its a unit of less than 5.

anything above 5 unit strength has to roll.

I appreciate this fact, but it has nothing to do with when you should allow a pivot, does it? And if you want to get technical, there are many units above a unit strength of 5 that still do not have to check animosity.

That said, I would force the pivot in that instance, since it is compulsory movement. Although, I would not adjust other units unless the final position of the unit suffering animosity required it.

Gobbo Lord
18-10-2008, 10:18
Its NOT unit strength 5 for animosity it is 5 gteenskins whick are needed. 3 Boar Boyz ( unit strength 6 ) do not test, you must have 5 of them ( unit strength 10 ) to test. 4 Boar Boyz and an Orc character would test as you have 5 animosity prone greenskins in the unit. However swap the Orc for a Black Orc and you wouldnt test being as you only have 4 Orcs prone to the rule.