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View Full Version : Updating Codex Dark Angels Etc to 5th edition Space marine codex ( multi post)



drew25a
07-10-2008, 13:31
Warning Multi post thread for easier editing as rules changes happen happen

With my game club I have been working on some changes to bring Codes dark Angels/Blood Angel/Black templar’s/space wolfs in line with 5th edition codex space marine, to maintain game balance between the books. A lot of people I know have considered dropping there codex’s to use the new book, which is a shame.

So here are the differences I have highlighted between the codexes, listing their unique units.

Codex chapters
Traits
And they shall know no fear
Combat tactics
Combat squads

Specialist units
Sternguard veterans
Vanguard veterans
Terminator assault Squad
Terminator squad

Dark Angels
Traits
And they shall know no fear
Fearless (only some units)
Combat squads

Specialist units
Death wing squad
Raven wing squad
Company veterans


Blood Angels

Traits
And they shall know no fear
No special rule for blood angels, suggest adding FURIUS CHARGE to elites and command squads)
Combat squads

Specialist units
Blood Angel terminator squad
Veteran assault squad
Ball predator
Furioso dreadnaught

NotesBlood Angels tactical, assault and devastator squads cost more due to the free death company models they give


Black Templers
Traits
And they shall know no fear
Righteous zeal
Abhor the witch
Kill them all
no combat squad rule for BT)


Specialist units
Sword brethren terminator squads
Sword brethren

Notes

Thinking off adding option to add scout bikes to marine bike squad

Iron Hands
Traits
??

Specialist units
??



If a weapon rule/vehicle rule in codex marine is different from blood/dark angels use the most recent rule.

drew25a
07-10-2008, 13:31
Updates to codex Dark angels

HQ
Add 0-1 grand master to list (stats and options as chapter master, replacing combat tactics with Fearless, used to represent the chapter masters of the unforgiven not sure if darkangels have one as Azrael fills this role as well as acting as supreme commander over all dark angel successor chapters)

Company master (same cost and options as space marine captain, but no bike option, Replacing combat tactics with Fearless)

Librarian (leadership upgrade to 10, Upgrade to epistolary for +50pts)

Chaplain (no change but add option for digital weapons for +10pts)

Interrogator-chaplain (no change but add option for digital weapons for +10pts)

Add master of the forge (replacing combat tactics with fearless)

Sammael (increase WS by 1; add option to mount on space marine bike for cost of 180 rather than 205)

Belial, (ingress WS by 1 and cost to 150, too cheep compared to a space marine captain in terminator armour)

Azrael, (ingress WS by 1, add orbital bombardment, and eternal warrior special rules, losses the chapter banner rule, this is replaced by the honour guard option)

Ezekiel, (no change)

Add option for honour guard squad (only useable if a Interrogator-chaplain, grand master or the supreme grand master is present, replace combat tactics with fearless, 'dark angels honour gaurds are described in the fiction as carrying large 2 handed power weapons', think relic blades work well for this.)

Replace command squad with the one from codex space marine, replacing combat tactics with fearless, remove bike option, 0-1 for every Company master present in the army)

Elite

Deathwing squad (increase cost of cyclone to 30pts,)

Dreadnought (replaces cost and options with codex space marine ones, add option to upgrade to venerable for +50 pts)

Techmarine (reduce cost and stats to codex space marine; replace options as well, Replacing combat tactics with Fearless.)

Company veterans (replace the line 'up to three veterans ' with 'any veteran may’ add option for 1 relic blade for 15pts, and thunderhammers for 15 pts. this makes the squad able to fill in for vanguard or sternguard, but without their special rules)

Troops

Tactical squad (add option to sergeant to have combi weapon or storm bolter for +10pts)

Scouts (use Codex marine point for options, otherwise no change)

Add Sergeant Naaman (use rules for Telion, replace stalker patern boltgun with master crafted power weapon, add assult 2 to boltpistol, replace voice and eye special rules with cluster mines rules and makes squad fearless )

Fast Attack

Raven wing (no change)

Raven wing support squad (replace with costs for space marine land speeder squad, lose deep strike, max squad size 5, only 1 tornado and 1 typhoon pattern a squad)

Assault squad (replace the sentence ‘up to two space marines’ with ‘for every 5 models in squad’)


Heavy Support

Devastator squads (add signum to sergeant, no cost change; add option to sergeant to have combi weapon or storm bolter for +10pts)

Add Thunderfire cannon to heavy support

landraider crusader (cost the same, Option to upgrade land raider crusader to redeemer for no extra points, use rules in codex marine, note this means Angels pay more points for this upgrade than normal)

landraiders ( cost the same, use rules in codex marine.)

vindicator ( cost the same, use rules in codex marine.)

preditor ( cost the same, use rules in codex marine.)

Transport Vehicles

rhino ( cost the same, use rules in codex marine.)

Razorback ( cost the same, use rules in codex marine.)

Drop pods ( cost the same, use rules in codex marine.)

drew25a
07-10-2008, 13:32
Updates to codex Blood angels

HQ

Add 0-1 chapter masters to list (stats and options as chapter master,may not be used in same Force as Commander dante)

Company master (same cost, stats and options as space marine captain,)

Librarian (leadership upgrade to 10, Upgrade to epistolary for +50pts, )

Chaplain (no change,)

Add master of the forge

Add Commander dante ( add eternal warior, orbital bombardment, +1WS, +1A, remove chapter banner rule )

Add Brother corbulo (Gives Furious Charge to units within 6")

Add Lemartes

Add Mephiston (replaces his powers with Quickening, Smite, and Force Shield)

Add option for honour guard squad (only useable if a Chapter master is present, equip with jump packs for +25)

Replace command squad with the one from codex space marine cost 145,( remove bike option, 0-1 for every Company master present in army, equip with jump packs for +25, One Veteran may be upgraded to a Tech-Adept, replacing his power armour with artificer armour and equipped with a power weapon and boltpistol, for +30 points. Tech-Adepts have the Blessing of the Omnissiah special rule.)

Elite

Death company (as they are currently, but with a unit size of 4-10, at 25pts each)

Temanitor squad (increase cost of cyclone to 30pts otherwise the same costs and rules)

Dreadnought (replaces cost and options with codex space marine ones, add option to upgrade to venerable for +50 pts)

Furioso (add option to upgrade to venerable for +50 pts)

Techmarine (reduce cost and stats to codex space marine; replace options as well.)

Veteran assult squad (no change to cost, FURIUS CHARGE, replace the line 'up to three veterans ' with 'any veteran may’ add option for 1 relic blade for 15pts, and thunderhammers for 15 pts. Add heroic intervention this makes the squad able to fill in for vanguard, but without their special rules)

Troops

Tactical squad (Use C;SM points and options)

Assault squad (Use C;SM points and options)

Fast Attack

Scouts (Use C;SM points and options)

Bike squad (Use C;SM points and options)

Attack bike squad (Use C;SM points and options)

Land speed squad (Use C;SM points and options)

Add scout bike squad (Use C;SM points and options)


Heavy Support

Devastator squads (Use C;SM points and options)

Add Thunderfire cannon to heavy support

landraider crusader (Use C;SM points and options)

landraider redeemer (Use C;SM points and options)

landraider (Use C;SM points and options)

vindicator (Use C;SM points and options)

Preditor (Use C;SM points and options add option for Twin-Linked Assault Cannon for +30 pts. Side sponsons may be equipped with Heavy Flamers for +15pts)

no other changes.

Transport Vehicles

rhino (Use C;SM points and options)

Razorback (Use C;SM points and options)

Drop pods (Use C;SM points and options)

drew25a
07-10-2008, 13:32
Updates to codex Black templars

Place holder for codex Black templars

drew25a
07-10-2008, 13:33
Updates to codex Iron Hands

Place holder

if any one has any sugestions.

drew25a
07-10-2008, 13:44
Updates to codex marine

just some ideas reguarding special rules for codex marines. i dont like the idea that every white scars force has to have there specilal character to have X rule, or every chrimson fist has to have there chapter master present to change there special rule.

so i have come up with the following options added to a chapter master or captain, for +30pts ( this comes from the fact that all the special characters seem to be around 30pts more than a character with the same gear )


White Scars and there successors
Replace Combat tactics with the outflank rule (including dedicated transports)

Imperial fist's and ther successors
Replace Combat tactics with stubborn

Iron hands and ther successors
Replace Combat tactics with (Need sugestions here)

Salamanders and ther successors
Replace Combat tactics with master crafted thuderhammers, and twin linked flamers/meltas

Raven Guard and ther successors
Replace Combat tactics with Fleet

Octavius_Maximus
08-10-2008, 05:58
Now i might not know Dark Angels fluff well...but isnt there only 1 Grand Master? Azrael?



Chaplain (no change but add option for digital weapons for +10pts)

Interrogator-chaplain (no change but add option for digital weapons for +10pts)

Why?



Sammael (increase WS by 1; add option to mount on space marine bike for cost of 180 rather than 205)


I disagree, Sammael should alwatys be in his pimped ride.



Azrael, (ingress WS by 1, add orbital bombardment, and eternal warrior special rules, losses the chapter banner rule, this is replaced by the honour guard option)

1. Why Orbital Bombardment?
2. Why Eternal Warrior?



Deathwing squad (increase cost of cyclone to 30pts, ?? incress squad cap to 10, 1 heavy weapon per every full 5, add combat tactics? )


May only buy in multiples of 5. They are fearless and thus cannot use Combat Tactics.



Add scout bike squad (baby raven wing, remove combat tactics)


I disagree, all ravenwing should be full ravenwing.



Add Thunderfire cannon to heavy support


I disagree with this, the Dark Angels are a proud and ancient Chapter they shouldnt use too many of the new toys.




Add 0-1 chapter masters to list (stats and options as chapter master, replacing combat tactics with FURIUS CHARGE, may not be used in same Force as Commander dante)


The Blood Angels Chapter Master is Dante. There is no other. I dont like Furious Charge as a Combat skill.



Chaplain (no change, Replacing combat tactics with FURIUS CHARGE)


This is alright, but the Chaplain is fearless, so should pay for furious Charge.



Commander dante ( add eternal warior, orbital bombardment, +1WS, +1A, FURIUS CHARGE and Titanic might rule, allowing a rerole on wounds, remove chapter banner rule [beter in combat than calagar but not as tough )

1. Why Eternal Warrior?
2. Why Orbital Bombardment?
3. Why Furious charge?
4. Why steal a rule from Calgar?



Brother corbulo

Gives Furious Charge to units within 6", no other Furious Charge apart from Chaplains.



Add Thunderfire cannon to heavy support

Again i disagree




just some ideas reguarding special rules for codex marines. i dont like the idea that every white scars force has to have there specilal character to have X rule, or every chrimson fist has to have there chapter master present to change there special rule.

Well thats how it should be. Its a good system, and allows special characters to finally hit the battlefield.



to take these a chapter must be identifiable as a successor chapter to the big 5.


This cant be a rule, its too vague.

All your last post can be done simpler with the Special Characters, and Better.

BigRob
09-10-2008, 08:11
Why all fancy rules and stuff? Surely an easier and more simple approach is better.

Simply standardise the things in each book like Land Raiders and other tanks, Cyclone launchers, stormshields and other weapons. If everyone has the same equipment then 99% of the complaints will stop. There is no point in trying to make DA/BA super powerful with a ton of rules and such like. Azreal and Dante have been laying the smackdown plenty and dont need a sudden boost.

drew25a
11-10-2008, 16:01
Now i might not know Dark Angels fluff well...but isnt there only 1 Grand Master? Azrael?



Azrael is the supreme grand master of the dark angels and all there successors each off the successor chapters are lead by a grand master. this option is mainly for the successor chapters




I disagree, Sammael should always be in his pimped ride.


it says in the codex that some masters prefer to ride into battle on bikes as well as the landspeeder or jetbike.




1. Why Orbital Bombardment?
2. Why Eternal Warrior?


orbital bombardment, is Azrael is there the rock or a battle badge will be in orbit, same as for any other chapter master.

Eternal warrior, this was more due to ballance between the 2 characters. for +25 points calgar gains +1ws, orbital bombardment, rerole on wounds, imune to instant death and god of war which is far beter than fearless.




May only buy in multiples of 5. They are fearless and thus cannot use Combat Tactics.


i sugested uping the max to 10 like in codex marrine but in hind sight will remove that bit ( a space marine force can field 30 terminators using up its 3 elite slots and split em into combat squads, a darkangel force can field the same amount in 5 man squads using its troop allowance (6 squads for both forces). and i meant combat squads, not tactics.



I disagree, all ravenwing should be full ravenwing.


i figure they have to learn to use bikes some where.



I disagree with this, the Dark Angels are a proud and ancient Chapter they shouldnt use too many of the new toys.


In the new codex it dosent say how old the thunderfire is, it may be new, it may be old. but the DA ar not above using new toys, they use the razorback (4000 years old ) and crusader (2000 years old )



The Blood Angels Chapter Master is Dante. There is no other. I dont like Furious Charge as a Combat skill.


Again for succesor chapters, and there are still groups and campains out there that limit special characters.

What would you suggest for blodangels as tehre chapter skill then? as they dont have combat tactics.



This is alright, but the Chaplain is fearless, so should pay for furious Charge.


i forgot he was fearless. how many points would you sugest?

[QUOTE=Octavius_Maximus;2993049]
1. Why Eternal Warrior?
2. Why Orbital Bombardment?
3. Why Furious charge?
4. Why steal a rule from Calgar?


on this i think i weant a little over the top. edited him a bit.
Eternal and orbital bombardment, see azerial. i feel blood angels need a rule to replace combat tactics, furious charge feels right for them unless any one else has any ideas.



Gives Furious Charge to units within 6", no other Furious Charge apart from Chaplains.


Good idea, edited the his entry.



Well thats how it should be. Its a good system, and allows special characters to finally hit the battlefield.


i dont dissagre about special characters. remeber this is for a gaming club/area i play in, and some campains we do dont allow special characters.

drew25a
11-10-2008, 16:12
Why all fancy rules and stuff? Surely an easier and more simple approach is better.

Simply standardise the things in each book like Land Raiders and other tanks, Cyclone launchers, stormshields and other weapons. If everyone has the same equipment then 99% of the complaints will stop. There is no point in trying to make DA/BA super powerful with a ton of rules and such like. Azreal and Dante have been laying the smackdown plenty and dont need a sudden boost.

there not a lot off complicated changes in there. most are just clarifications. Azreal and dante are now subpar compared to calgar, a 4 wound, immune to instant death with a 3+/4+ or a 2+/4+ save and a rerole on wounds, and who gives his entire force the option to pass or fail and Moral checks they make ( which is beter than the dark angels fearless due to the fact that they dont take wounds in combat like a fearless unit would)

im not making DA/BA ultra powerfull, there are some changes in the list that down grade them a bit, for example a DA 5 man assult squad can have 1 more Plasma pistal than a % man marine squad due to the wording.

i do admit im a darkangel player not a blood angel so if some one can throw me some ideas for blood angels it would be nice.

BigRob
11-10-2008, 19:01
Azreal and dante are now subpar compared to calgar, a 4 wound, immune to instant death with a 3+/4+ or a 2+/4+ save and a rerole on wounds, and who gives his entire force the option to pass or fail and Moral checks they make ( which is beter than the dark angels fearless due to the fact that they dont take wounds in combat like a fearless unit would)

.

But they are not Calgar, they are Azreal and Dante. Thats like saying my chapter master should have access to Drachneyen and a talon of Horus because Abbadon has them and he is a Space Marine supreme master commander. Sure he is from a different space marine group (the Black legion) but thats just the same as comparing Azreal and Calgar and so should be different.

I dont think Calgar and Lysander should have eternal warrior but thats just me.

MadDoc
12-10-2008, 11:13
Updates to codex Dark angels

HQ
Add 0-1 grand master to list (stats and options as chapter master, replacing combat tactics with Fearless, used to represent the chapter masters of the unforgiven not sure if darkangels have one as Azrael fills this role as well as acting as supreme commander over all dark angel successor chapters)

Ideally this should be...

Add 0-1 Grand Master - Stats and Options as Chapter Master, switches combat tactics with Rites of Battle and becomes Fearless (Can be used to represent the Chapter Masters of the other Unforgiven Chapters or your own Dark Angels Chapter Master if you don't want to use Azrael(he isn't the only Chapter Master they've had just the current one)) Add Heaven Fall blade (Master-crafted S6 power weapon) to basic wargear (which can't be switched for/replaced with anything else) adds + 40 points to base cost.


Company master (same cost and options as space marine captain, but no bike option, Replacing combat tactics with Fearless)

Again ideally...

Company Master - Stats and Options as Space Marine Captain (loses option for a bike), switches combat tactics with Rites of Battle and becomes Fearless.


Librarian (leadership upgrade to 10, Upgrade to epistolary for +50pts)

This is a little more complicated and I'll need to think on it.


Chaplain (no change but add option for digital weapons for +10pts)

Ideally...

Chaplain as per Codex Space Marines (loses option for Terminator armour).


Interrogator-chaplain (no change but add option for digital weapons for +10pts)

Ideally...

Interrogator-Chaplain - Stats unchanged Options as Space Marine Chaplain.


Add master of the forge (replacing combat tactics with fearless)

Ok, but not really necessary. No issue with it though.


Sammael (increase WS by 1; add option to mount on space marine bike for cost of 180 rather than 205)

Bike option not needed. WS should definitely go up to 6 (its standard for Marine Captains now).


Belial, (ingress WS by 1 and cost to 150, too cheep compared to a space marine captain in terminator armour)

Ideally...

Grand Master Belial, Master of the Deathwing - WS goes up to 6, add Iron Halo to wargear (C:SM Captains keep their's when they upgrade to Terminator armour) add +25 to points cost.


Azrael, (ingress WS by 1, add orbital bombardment, and eternal warrior special rules, losses the chapter banner rule, this is replaced by the honour guard option)

Ideally...

Supreme Grand Master Azreal - WS goes up to 6, gains Orbital Bombardment (the Dark Angels are a Fleet based Chapter for christ's sake), add Eternal Warrior (though I probably wouldn't), Chapter Banner rule unnecessary, Honour Guard entry covers this already (change cost of Chapter Banner upgrade to the cost of the Dark Angels Chapter Banner from Azreal's special rule).


Ezekiel, (no change)

Ideally...

Grand Master Ezekiel, Chief Librarian - Stats as Space Marine Librarian, powers need revisiting


Add option for honour guard squad (only useable if a grand master or the supreme grand master is present, replace combat tactics with fearless)

Good although I would suggest Chapter Banner cost be changed to that of Dark Angels Chapter Banner cost, and rules, from Azreal's special rule.


Replace command squad with the one from codex space marine, replacing combat tactics with fearless, remove bike option, 0-1 for every Company master present in the army)

This sounds ok.


Elite

Deathwing squad (increase cost of cyclone to 30pts,)

Ideally...

Deathwing Terminators - Cost of Cyclone Missile Launcher upgrade increased to +30 points (Cyclone Missile Launcher becomes Heavy 2). Storm Shields grant a 3+ Invulnerable save (at no additional cost)


Dreadnought (replaces cost and options with codex space marine ones, add option to upgrade to venerable for +50 pts)

Works for me...


Techmarine (reduce cost and stats to codex space marine; replace options as well, Replacing combat tactics with Fearless.)

Seems ok. Don't forget to add the Servitors entry.


Company veterans (replace the line 'up to three veterans ' with 'any veteran may’ add option for 1 relic blade for 15pts, and thunderhammers for 15 pts. this makes the squad able to fill in for vanguard or sternguard, but without their special rules)

Seems ok.


Troops

Tactical squad (add option to sergeant to have combi weapon or storm bolter for +10pts)

Ideally...

Tactical Squad - Sergeant gains the same options as the Space Marine Sergeant (less the Teleport Homer upgrade) in the Tactical Squad entry from C:SM.


Scouts (replace with codex marine entry and move to troop section)

Not really necessary...


Add Sergeant Naaman (use rules for Telion, replace stalker patern boltgun with master crafted power weapon, add assult 2 to boltpistol, replace voice and eye special rules with cluster mines rules and squad gains +1a on charge )

So not needed...


Fast Attack

Raven wing (no change)

Good...


Raven wing support squad (replace with costs for space marine land speeder squad, lose deep strike, max squad size 5, only 1 tornado and 1 typhoon pattern a squad)

*shrugs* Not sure this is needed but, ok.


Assault squad (replace the sentence ‘up to two space marines’ with ‘for every 5 models in squad’)

Ideally...

Assault Squad - Sergeant gains the same options as the Space Marine Sergeant in the Assualt Squad entry from C:SM.

Thats all thats needed really.


Add scout bike squad (baby raven wing, remove combat tactics)

Not needed...


Heavy Support

Devastator squads (add signum to sergeant, no cost change; add option to sergeant to have combi weapon or storm bolter for +10pts)

Ideally...

Devastator Squad - Sergeant gains Signum and the same options as the Space Marine Sergeant in the Devastator Squad entry from C:SM. Heavy weapon upgrade costs become the same as those in C:SM.


Add Thunderfire cannon to heavy support

Not really needed, but ok...


landraider crusader (cost the same, Option to upgrade land raider crusader to redeemer for no extra points, use rules in codex marine, note this means Angels pay more points for this upgrade than normal)

Ideally...

Land Raider Crusader - As C:SM entry.

We don't need the Redeemer.


landraiders ( cost the same, use rules in codex marine.)

Again....

Land Raider - As C:SM entry.


vindicator (add siege shield for +10pts)

Again...

Vindicator - As C:SM entry.


preditor (no change )

Again...

Predator - As C:SM entry.


Transport Vehicles

No change to rhino

As C:SM entry.


Razorback add weapon options from codex marines

As C:SM entry.


Drop pods cost and rules from codex marines.

As C:SM entry.


notes, this means dark nagels pay less for pinital storm bolters, but more for hunter killer missiles

They shouldn't, the options should be the same cost and follow the same rules. i.e. Machine Spirit should be the same for a DA LR as for an UM one.

The same goes for all wargear (excluding Chapter specific stuff like the Sacred Standards which are unique items) Storm Shields should all be the same (3++ is over the top in my opinion, but if its good for one then it should hold true for all Storm Shields) as should Combat Shields (meaning the 5++ usable only close combat goes to 6++ vs. everything), and even including 24" range Psychic hoods for Librarians.

These are all just my opinion, so take them or leave them but its how I think it should go...

If we can do this then how come GW can't manage it? :eyebrows:

thomas2
12-10-2008, 21:55
Company Master - Stats and Options as Space Marine Captain (loses option for a bike), switches combat tactics with Rites of Battle and becomes Fearless.

Perhaps there should be some option for bikes for successor Ravenwing sergeants.

neXus6
12-10-2008, 22:07
I assume you are doing this :-

Deathwing squad (increase cost of cyclone to 30pts,)

Because you have them using the wargear rules from the new Marine Codex?

If this is the case how do you correct for the extreme unbalancing of the Deathwing you have just cause by allowing 5 man Terminator squads with the 3+ Invulnerable save from the new Storm Shields that are Troop Choices and thus scoring units?

I'm a DW player who is happy with the Dark Angels Codex and feel that if a player wants shiney new toys more than background and character then it doesn't matter to me if they throw their DA Codex in the bin.

MadDoc
13-10-2008, 11:57
I assume you are doing this :-

Because you have them using the wargear rules from the new Marine Codex?

As they should, we already pay a premium for DW (+5 points per model). The UM pay nothing extra for 3++ SS and they can have 10 man squads. The DW being 5 man makes them, even with a 3++, little better than a slightly more resilient 5 man Power Armour squad (although much more expensive). C:SM Scouts can for, +3 points, gain Stealth meaning a 10 man squad with Sniper Rifles can not only have a 3++ in the right Cover, but all of those members will also have Pinning, Rending weapons for free, can Infiltrate, Scout, Outflank and cost alot less doing it.

What I suggested isn't unbalancing, you're just assuming it will be without considering all the facts. In order for DW to be Scoring Units you also have to burn an HQ slot to have (the still underpowered) Belial.


If this is the case how do you correct for the extreme unbalancing of the Deathwing you have just cause by allowing 5 man Terminator squads with the 3+ Invulnerable save from the new Storm Shields that are Troop Choices and thus scoring units?

What? As opposed to the 10 man Terminator squads with 3++ saves that C:SM can get. Or perhaps comparing them to the 10 man (Special Ruled up the Ying Yang, Special Ammunition for a start) Sternguard that the 175 point (Assault 4 AP 4 Storm Bolter, Power fist, Orbital Bombardment wielding) Pedro Kantor makes Scoring units would be better? Scoring units that can deploy via the, DWA equivalent, DPA special rule and have additional fire power while doing so (one of which is Range 12" Str 5 AP - Heavy Large Blast to boot (thats hidden because I'm leary of posting rules, particularly Stats, even in the Rules section))


I'm a DW player who is happy with the Dark Angels Codex and feel that if a player wants shiney new toys more than background and character then it doesn't matter to me if they throw their DA Codex in the bin.

How long have you been playing Dark Angels? Me, nearly 20 years, I started DAs because of the background and flavour of the army. I hope for your sake that you're not accusing me of wanting all the new toys because I want to overpower :cheese: my army, as that will only start a fight. What I want is list parity, I simply want the Dark Angels brought back to being representative of their background (which apparently you're not as familiar with as you seem to be suggesting if you think the now sub-par list supports it). They're SM with a slightly different Command Structure and Company Organisation.

Alessio Calvatorre even tried suggesting at Gamesday that they're less well equipped because they create their own kit and don't have access to the superior kit from Mars that the UMs, and apparently almost every other Chapter, get (quite apart from the fact that the Dark Angels Codex states that they have a larger cache of Heresy/Pre-Heresy era equipment than almost any other Chapter, much of which is going to be superior), it was ill-considered and insulting. He clearly didn't even consider how flawed an argument it was either. Where do the Grey Knights (noted as getting the best equipment) get their kit? Mars. So why do they have the same inferior kit that the DAs have? Lets not even start on the GK LRs or ACs.

Octavius_Maximus
13-10-2008, 13:54
How long have you been playing Dark Angels? Me, nearly 20 years, I started DAs because of the background and flavour of the army. I hope for your sake that you're not accusing me of wanting all the new toys because I want to overpower

Yes, well mines bigger.

He can only work with whats given to him.

If you get all these things, why play Space Marines?

UltimateNagash
14-10-2008, 07:01
For DA, Librarians need to be better. MUCH better. Because at the moment, the Psychic Powers suck. Here's something along the lines of what I would do to make them better. Please note that Ezekiel gets all of the listed powers, plus the Mind Worm from the Codex (and he can use two powers per turn).

DARK ANGELS PSYCHIC POWERS

REPENTANCE
x
This power is a psychic shooting attack and has the following profile:

Range Strength AP Type
18" 8 5 Heavy 1, Blast

FORCE DOME
Reaching out with his mind, the Librarian erects a barrier of shimmering force around himself and his companions.
This power is used at the start of the Librarian's Movement phase. The Librarian and any unit he is with receive a 5+ invulnerable save until the end of the following player turn.

FEAR OF THE DARK
Prying into the minds of his foes, the Librarian visits upon them their greatest fears.
This power is used in the Librarian's Shooting phase (but does not count as firing a weapon). One enemy unit within 12" must take a Morale test or fall back.

HELLFIRE
x
This power is a psychic shooting attack and has the following profile:

Range Strength AP Type
Template D6+2 D6 Assault 1

MENTAL STRIKE
x
The power is used at the start of the Librarian's Assault phase. If successful, the Librarian. If the Librarian has a higher Leadership than the enemy model's he is attacking, he gains Weapon Skill and Strength equal to the difference. Against models with no Leadership characteristic, he gains +1 Weapon Skill and Strength.

DENOUNCEMENT
The Librarian cries out the words of the Emperor, calling upon the fear and awe his image conjures up.
This power is a psychic shooting attack with a range of 18" that only affects models with a Leadership characteristic. If Denouncement hits, the target model or unit suffers -1 Leadership until the end of their next turn (to a minimum of 2).


And the same should be done for BA. They get one power from C:SM, their two powers (which are fine actually), and then three more powers for their Librarians to choose. And Mephiston gets Transfixing Gaze as usual.
Might of the Ancients, Might of Heroes, Wings of Sanguinius (as normal)
Wrath of Angels: Like Quickening (giving him bonus Weapon Skill and Initiative).
Righteous Assault: Gives him and his unit Furious Charge (or Fleet if you're replaced Combat Tactics with Furious Charge).
Storm of Blood: One unit within 18" must take a Pinning test at -2 Leadership.

Hellebore
14-10-2008, 08:41
Yes, well mines bigger.

He can only work with whats given to him.

If you get all these things, why play Space Marines?

Marines are marines. The marine codex provides rules for 6 of the 9 loyalist legions-cum-chapters, Imperial Fists, White Scars, Raven Guard, Ultramarines, Iron Hands, and Salamanders.

But apparently 3 of the 9 original legions can't get everything else? It's attempted apologetic ******** trying to explain to people why a codex disparity exists when it never has in the past.

SOMETIMES THINGS ARE JUST WRONG. No amount of apologist wriggling gets you out of it.


As an aside though, I'm not a fan of anything corporeal getting Eternal Warrior, no matter how awesome they are. I don't like GW's stance on handing out immunity to ID like candy and don't think it should be continued.

Daemons and unliving entities like Phoenix Lords are one thing, but when a piece of meat gets hit by an Anti Tank weapon it explodes, no amount of badassery will change that.

Hellebore

MadDoc
15-10-2008, 05:12
Yes, well mines bigger.

From the tone of your post I'll take that as you refering to the size of the chip on your shoulder... :angel:


He can only work with whats given to him.

So by that you'd be refering to the fact that my suggestions only included things which brought parity to the list, didn't even attempt to add unnecessary (new) units, and even retained several of the drawbacks (much more expensive Tactical Squads, Assault Squads and Devastator Squads with, baring the Dev Squad, the same expensive squad upgrades for example) inherent in the old list? (I did forget to add that I'd probably also like to see Company Vets removed, they're unfluffy, and I don't like them because of it.)


If you get all these things, why play Space Marines?

:confused: Sorry what? I'm not quite sure I follow your reasoning or the point of your question? Did you miss word it? :confused:

Octavius_Maximus
15-10-2008, 09:11
Sorry what? I'm not quite sure I follow your reasoning or the point of your question? Did you miss word it?

No i didnt.

If Dark Angels and Blood Angels get everything marines get except with better things (like Terminators as Troops and such) then why play normal Marines?

MadDoc
15-10-2008, 10:05
No i didnt.

Sorry, but your question was poorly worded... :angel:


If Dark Angels and Blood Angels get everything marines get except with better things (like Terminators as Troops and such) then why play normal Marines?

Because you're choosing your army based on its background rather than what advantages you can claw out of your list?

Quite apart from which, you appear not to have paid too much attention to what has been written, or you would've noticed that this isn't about getting all the goodies from C:SM its about ensuring that the gear which is common to both is actually common to both (a Storm Shield, is a Storm Shield, is a Storm Shield). You want to play Ultramarines (apart from possibly seeking medical help :evilgrin:) you should use C:SM if you want to play DA play with C:DA (after its given parity), BA? Play with C:BA (after its given parity). BT? Play C:BT (after its given parity). See the pattern?

Your argument suggests that you believe that a list should be chosen on what advantages it has over other lists (with the suggestions I've made, C:DA still has many deficits). If thats not the case I'm sorry, but your questions suggests that to be the case.

Octavius_Maximus
15-10-2008, 10:45
Sorry, but your question was poorly worded...

I dont see how, it was direct.


Because you're choosing your army based on its background rather than what advantages you can claw out of your list?


I do that, not everyone else does, though.



Quite apart from which, you appear not to have paid too much attention to what has been written, or you would've noticed that this isn't about getting all the goodies from C:SM its about ensuring that the gear which is common to both is actually common to both (a Storm Shield, is a Storm Shield, is a Storm Shield). You want to play Ultramarines (apart from possibly seeking medical help ) you should use C:SM if you want to play DA play with CA (after its given parity), BA? Play with C:BA (after its given parity). BT? Play C:BT (after its given parity). See the pattern?

See how silly that is?

With the amount of number crunching that goes on these days, soon enough the best will be found.

Also, with Space Marine Storm Shields, every space marine player will take 2 squads of 5 termies as troops to capture objectives. It'd be too easy.



Your argument suggests that you believe that a list should be chosen on what advantages it has over other lists (with the suggestions I've made, CA still has many deficits). If thats not the case I'm sorry, but your questions suggests that to be the case.

Its not the case, but i like to understand other viewpoints rather than disregarding them. I think a middle ground needs to be done between fluff, power and balance.

Lord Damocles
16-10-2008, 13:53
I do admit im a darkangel player not a blood angel so if some one can throw me some ideas for blood angels it would be nice.
I'm not sure that your take on the Blood Angels works really. It seems a bit like the 3rd ed. list which stereotypes them into the 'Charge!' chapter without addressing some of the main issues which the current list faces.
IMO they'd work much better if they used basicly the same list as standard marines, but just made a small number of minor changes.

What I'd do is something like this (which may not be an improvement on your attempt anyway, but there you go):



*Blood Angels use 'Codex: Space Marines' with the following alterations*

HQ
-Remove special characters
-Remove Chapter Master
-Remove Honour Guard

-Add Dante (gains Orbital Bombardment)
-Add Curbolo as he is currently
-Add Mephiston (replaces his powers with Quickening, Smite, and Force Shield),
-Add Lemartes as he is currently

-Command Squads may not have bikes, but may have jump packs for +5pts per model.

Basicly just replacing the standard characters with their Blood Angel equivalents, and bringing their abilities into line with the 5th ed. codex.
I left Tycho out because a)He's dead. b)Nobody takes him anyway.


ELITES
-Remove Sternguard Veteran Squad
-Remove option for Dreadnought to take Mortis pattern weaponry
-Remove Ironclad Dreadnought

-Add Veteran Assault Squad (gains Deep Strike)
-Add Death Company - as they are currently, but with a unit size of 4-10, at 25pts each.
-Add Blood Angel Scout Squad (as standard Scout Squad with WS/BS 4. May not take Telion)
-Add Furioso Dreadnought (loses Venarable upgrade, gains +1 to vehicle damage table)


Having the Death Company as a stand alone unit rather than a unit which is generated by other squads (like they were in second edition) means that other units don't have to increase in cost, and you're no forced to take a Death Company / Chaplain to keep them in line - It's not like every Blood Angel force is going to be accompanied by a load of Death Company marines anyway.
Scouts are moved to Elites because they're no the BA's new recruits. They're better value than standard Scouts, however they have to compete with Veteran Assaut Squads and Terminators, so they need a slight points break.
The Ironclad is effectively replaced by the Furioso, which is a bit like a poor man's version.


TROOPS
-Remove Scout Squad

Keep the Tactical Squad as the core of the army - as it should be!


FAST ATTACK
- Remove Vanguard Veteran Squad


HEAVY SUPPORT
-Remove Sergeant Chronos

-Predator may replace Autocannon with Twin-Linked Assault Cannon for +30 pts. Side sponsons may be equipped with Heavy Flamers for +15pts.

The Baal is there in all but name.



Hopefully something like this would make Blood Angels similar enough to, say, Utramarines, that there was no longer the gulf in effectiveness which currently exists; but different enough (with some units gained and some units lost) that playing Blood Angels would be different to playing Ultramarines.