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patataman
07-10-2008, 16:42
Can a Character inside and in the midle of a unit of skirmisher charge alone???
I think he can because the friendly model donīt interrup the movment of the character


X X X X X

X X O X X

X X X X X




YYYYYY
YYYYYY
YYYYYY

O = Character
X = Skirmish unit
Y = Enemi unit

narrativium
07-10-2008, 17:33
As long as he can see the target, sure. He simply leaves the unit and charges. Just remember that the skirmishers still follow the rules for units left by a character - they can't charge a different target, casters must decide if spells in play on the unit now affect the character or the unit, etc.

Zot Zot
08-10-2008, 01:02
I second that.

Festus
08-10-2008, 09:43
Hi

Yes, he can charge and he can most definitely see, as Skiormishers do not block LoS to members of their own unit.

Festus

narrativium
08-10-2008, 11:01
But if he's charging, alone, he's no longer part of the unit. Thus any skirmishers which are surrounding him may block his line of sight. So it has to be checked.

Braad
08-10-2008, 11:20
At the moment he declares a charge, he has to have line of sight, but since he has not actually declared the charge yet, he is still part and no blocking occurs.
And no rule says if you need to keep line of sight during the charge, only when declaring it.

Also, from another point of view, I would say he only leaves the unit when he actually leaves it, so he is not blocked by the skirmishers until he is well out of them.

patataman
08-10-2008, 11:44
Thanks for the answers. That is wath I siad to them ^^

Vonlop
08-10-2008, 13:26
Hi all.

In my view the matter is not if the there is LoS or not, the question is if the character that has abandoned the unit in order to declare his charge may move through his former unit mates.

Some may say that he abandones the unit and the charges but that would mean that the charge would be measured at the point of leaving the unit and not where the character is. And that would lend it self to obvious abuse.

narrativium
08-10-2008, 14:28
Since he charges, and they don't, he has to move before them. Since by charging, he's leaving the unit, I'd say yes, he has to move around his former unitmates.

As to where the charge is measured from - the rules on leaving a unit state unambiguously that he can't use the fact that he's leaving a unit (or joining another) to move further than his Movement allows.

The LOS thing... is interesting. He does only leave the unit when he moves, not when he's declaring the charge. He still needs LOS to charge alone, but the unit doesn't block LOS while he's in it. So a skirmishing unitmate won't stop him seeing the target but could stop him reaching it.

Chicago Slim
08-10-2008, 15:03
Weirdly, I consider the character to have left the unit, not at the beginning of the Move Chargers sub-phase, but rather, once he actually leaves the unit.

It's crazy talk, I know, combining rational thought and common sense to come up with the simplest possible interpretation of the rules, but then, I always as a fan of Achem.

kramplarv
08-10-2008, 15:43
a character within a unit of skirmishers LOS is still blocked by any models in it's way, also, he must move around the skirmishing models, he can never go through them.

so a character in a middle of a skirmisher units

XXX
XoX
XXX

can't charge as 1: he does not see anyting, 2: his homeboys are blocking his chargepath
#1 is of course unless skirmisher and characters has some kind of special rule hidden somewhere :) but #2 is true.

Atrahasis
08-10-2008, 16:29
It isn't hidden - models in units of skirmishers don't block each other's LOS.

Gazak Blacktoof
08-10-2008, 17:24
Some may say that he abandones the unit and the charges but that would mean that the charge would be measured at the point of leaving the unit and not where the character is. And that would lend it self to obvious abuse.


Or you could be rational about it and play as Bradd and others have suggested.


The character counts all his movement from where he starts his move. <shocking>;)

The character doesn't leave the unit until he actually "leaves the unit" or he contacts an enemy model,

BEEGfrog
08-10-2008, 19:05
This is an interesting problem because it falls into a grey area where the rules have been written assuming a rank and file unit and they don't fully make sense applied to skimishing units.

With the rules as they are written there are three reasons why the character in the middle cannot charge:

1) He is not allowed to be there (characters have to be placed in he front rank so he is not actually allowed to be in the middle). The problem with this reason is what do ranks mean to skirmishers, but it does show the intent of the rules even if the actual wording doesn't work for skirmishers.

2) Pg72 The point at which the character decides to leave is when he counts as leaving, since he has to decide to leave before he can declare his charge he counts as not being in the unit during the declaration, i.e. during his declaration he would not have line of sight (being blocked by the skirmishing unit even if there was a gap to see through) and so could not declare a charge.

3) As you can only wheel once during a charge it would be very difficult to get out of the middle of the skirmishing unit and reach the enemy using a legal charge move.

kramplarv
08-10-2008, 19:32
It isn't hidden - models in units of skirmishers don't block each other's LOS.

AFAIk they do, but not for shooting.
please, if you have another reference where it is stated that interposing skirmiserhs don't block LoS, show me where.

otherwise skirmishers follow normal LoS rules.

Festus
08-10-2008, 21:13
Hi

p.65 BRB

Nuff said

Festus

kramplarv
08-10-2008, 21:42
not nuff said.

if you are refering to that a unit of skirmishers may charge if one of the models can see the enemy I'd say that it wont work on a character in
XXX
XoX
XXX

because if a character are to charge out from a unit, you use the characters LoS, not the entire units LoS... and nowhere in the skirmisher description is it stated that you may see through them. And also, nowhere is it stated that you may move through your own model.

ie; if there somehow, is an character with 8 homeboys in BtB around him, he cant see out for charging, and he cant charge.

not that this is a very common situation except with khornewargors in beastherds. :)

edit. How come my smilies are not visible? Do they hate me? :sad smilie:

DeathlessDraich
08-10-2008, 22:05
1) Charge declaration is valid
- the character in a skirmishing unit is part of the unit etc - pg 78
- Every skirmishing model has 360 LOS through other skirmishing models - Skirmishing chapter
Therefore the character (who is obviously part of the unit) does have LOS

2) Whether the charge move would be valid is a matter of taste -
see http://warseer.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2991502

MonkeyLord
08-10-2008, 22:52
DeathlessDraich has it. As a member of the skirmishing unit, the character has 360 degree LOS, and can easily declare a charge.

As far as movement is concerned, skirmishing models would not block is movement. Consider two skimishing units that are actually intermingled. As long as one member of the unit has LOS and can charge, they all can. The same would apply to a single character on foot. Let's also not forget that you don't necessarily have to charge in a straight line as long as you have LOS with which to declare the charge. As long as there is a gap for him to run through, it wouldn't matter anyway.

BEEGfrog
09-10-2008, 03:28
1) Charge declaration is valid
- the character in a skirmishing unit is part of the unit etc - pg 78
- Every skirmishing model has 360 LOS through other skirmishing models - Skirmishing chapter
Therefore the character (who is obviously part of the unit) does have LOS

2) Whether the charge move would be valid is a matter of taste -
see http://warseer.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2991502


DeathlessDraich has it. As a member of the skirmishing unit, the character has 360 degree LOS, and can easily declare a charge.

As far as movement is concerned, skirmishing models would not block is movement. Consider two skimishing units that are actually intermingled. As long as one member of the unit has LOS and can charge, they all can. The same would apply to a single character on foot. Let's also not forget that you don't necessarily have to charge in a straight line as long as you have LOS with which to declare the charge. As long as there is a gap for him to run through, it wouldn't matter anyway.

Can one of you provide some actual rules justification why you think a character on their own counts as part of a unit and can use the special rules that only apply to that unit.

*Joining and leaving units* on pg72 says that a character joins a unit by moving to touch it (3rd para) but counts as leaving when it decides to leave (1st para). If they are part of the unit then they have LOS because the unit has LOS but the unit has to be part of the charge. If they aren't part of the unit they don't have LOS so they can't charge. This argument only applies if the character is buried in the middle of the unit (where it probably shouldn't be) if it has its own LOS then it can charge.

I could easily have missed an exception as WHFB is full of general rules that are excepted elsewhere. But the general rule is you count a character as having left the unit when the decision to leave has ben made, you don't have to move, just decide. Having left (by making the decision to charge) you can't count special rules that apply to being in a unit. So you can't count LOS for being part of a unit with LOS and you can't count LOS for skirmishers not blocking sight to the rest of the unit because you are no longer part of the unit. Your old unit is in the way blocking LOS, as skirmishers do, so you don't have LOS so you can't charge.

The character has left the unit, i.e. it is no longer part of the unit. Characters that are not part of a unit cannot be counted as part of that unit.

DeathlessDraich
09-10-2008, 08:23
Can one of you provide some actual rules justification why you think a character on their own counts as part of a unit and can use the special rules that only apply to that unit.
.

The character is not on his own but is in a skirmishing unit.

He becomes a lone character when he leaves which occurs *after* charge *declaration*.

kramplarv
09-10-2008, 08:32
I know those rules, but if the character wants to leavy the unit for a charge, he msut run on his own. nad he can't run through (over) another model in his unit. It is stated in the skirmisher rule that they works as a normal unit with the followin exceptions. But there is no exception whatsoever claiming that a character may move through his friends.

so, if the skirmish character stands in a square formation of 9 models, with 8 mates around him, he cant charge as he cant runt through them, and there are not enough space to run around them. :happy face smilie: I can agree now that a character might see through his mates, as it is said so under shooting rules. But he can't run through them.

XXX
XoX
XXX

prohibits his charge in any direction, as the X are BtB with O and he cant run through the X, and have no space to run around. :hapy smilie face:

Festus
09-10-2008, 10:34
Hi

First things first: You might want to consider using a spell checker,

Secondly: You are clutching at straws here, as all revolves around the exact point in time the character leaves the unit.
You won't get an answer by the rules here, only common sense. And a few clues: How about a character joining a unit (regular ranked infantry) from the back. How can he be positioned in the front rank if not allowed to move through his mates???

Remember that a character who joined a unit is a member of this unit in all respects until *he leaves it*.
We could argue back and forth about the moment the character leaves, but it seems to be most convenient that the character leaves the unit as soon as he leaves the unit physically, or isn't it?

Cheers
Festus

Atrahasis
09-10-2008, 10:51
Can one of you provide some actual rules justification why you think a character on their own counts as part of a unit and can use the special rules that only apply to that unit.

Very last sentence of the section you cite (page 73) says that the character leaves the unit when he charges, ie when he actually moves. He is part of the unit until that point.

DeathlessDraich
09-10-2008, 12:01
Hi

First things first: You might want to consider using a spell checker,

Secondly: You are clutching at straws here, as all revolves around the exact point in time the character leaves the unit.
You won't get an answer by the rules here, only common sense. And a few clues: How about a character joining a unit (regular ranked infantry) from the back. How can he be positioned in the front rank if not allowed to move through his mates???

Remember that a character who joined a unit is a member of this unit in all respects until *he leaves it*.
We could argue back and forth about the moment the character leaves, but it seems to be most convenient that the character leaves the unit as soon as he leaves the unit physically, or isn't it?

Cheers
Festus

Yay! Festus's back!:D Good to see you at these forums again.

Festus
09-10-2008, 14:04
Thanks for the warm welcome - it looks as if I have sorted out a few problems... internet and otherwise ;)

Cheers
Festus

Vonlop
09-10-2008, 23:44
Hi

First things first: You might want to consider using a spell checker,

Secondly: You are clutching at straws here, as all revolves around the exact point in time the character leaves the unit.
You won't get an answer by the rules here, only common sense. And a few clues: How about a character joining a unit (regular ranked infantry) from the back. How can he be positioned in the front rank if not allowed to move through his mates???

Remember that a character who joined a unit is a member of this unit in all respects until *he leaves it*.
We could argue back and forth about the moment the character leaves, but it seems to be most convenient that the character leaves the unit as soon as he leaves the unit physically, or isn't it?

Cheers
Festus

First things first: You would actually argue that warhammer is a game of common sense?:confused:

If you actually played like that you would measure the distance from when the character leaves the unit, and if so a screener unit like skinks plus a nike saurus would be...... well very useful:D

Gazak Blacktoof
09-10-2008, 23:58
If you actually played like that you would measure the distance from when the character leaves the unit

Why?! At no point do the rules indicate that in such a situation you should ignore the actual distance moved.

Please go back and read the earlier part of the thread.


You would actually argue that warhammer is a game of common sense?:confused:

Common sense has its place in any rule set including Warhammer, its when you ignore common sense that the game goes wonky. If the rules neatly cover a situation, use them, if they don't or they feel entirely wrong ignore them and do what feels right. I'm not saying throw the rule book out of the window but you're playing the person on the opposite side of the table, nobody else.

Vonlop
10-10-2008, 14:37
Look I dont mean to argue much about this because its besides the point, but the game has a million instances were the solutions to the problems are less then intuitive or based on common sense.

So I would argue that you have to leave common sense out of this, just focus on the rules, how they have been applied before, and the consecuences of one interpretation or another.

On the movement part....

The first thing you do is declare the charge,

Reaction to the charge

then you move the charging unit (charge movement).

There are two options here:

1.- The unit makes a charging move through his mates

2.- The unit makes a charging move after he has left his mates


the first one is out of the question

the second one is what I deem to be abusive.

Gazak Blacktoof
10-10-2008, 15:03
I've already pointed out I disagree with your set of options.

Vonlop
10-10-2008, 16:52
Thank you kind Sir..;)


This wouldnt be a debate if we all agreed now would it?

Chicago Slim
10-10-2008, 20:15
...never mind that the entire discussion assumes a fringe case, that can almost always be avoided by deliberate placement of the character.

In a friendly game, I'd never question a single character charging out of a unit of skirmishers, even if that charge passes through the other skirmishers. I can't imagine any of my friends doing so either.

In a tournament, I'd never question a single character charging out of a unit of skirmishers, even if that charge passes through the other skirmishers. I can imagine my opponent doing so, assuming that the opponent was strategizing around victory points and not sportsmanship points (because, while I seldom give less than max sportsmanship, this would be that special case), but I'm confident that the judges at the tournaments I play at would resolve the matter in what I think is the correct way.

narrativium
10-10-2008, 22:22
I played another game today in which the exact moment of leaving the unit became relevant. I'd declared charges against a Keeper of Secrets with my Tyrant (in Ironguts unit) and Butcher (from adjacent unit), and my opponent's Herald was nearby with a Great Icon of Despair. The Tyrant's unit was in range, failed its Ld test (for Fear) and couldn't charge. The Butcher wasn't in range but the unit he was in at the time was - and, since the unit was in range, his Ld was reduced for making the test.

He passed anyway, charged alone and was slaughtered (though, I did eventually win the game with a massacre). But I'm fairly sure we played it right - he was still part of the unit until he left it in the Move Chargers phase, so he was still subject to the Ld modifier.