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IronNerd
08-10-2008, 05:27
So I made up a quick and dirty Warriors of Chaos list with the stuff from the rumors section. I very much want to run a warrior themed army, as I completely dig the models, and have for a very long time. In addition, I want to make it as Nurgle as possible (the list I made is all Nurgle or not marked). I came down to having 3 characters (at over 800 points... hard to adjust from 40k where my HQs might cost 300), 3 blocks of troops, some obligatory hounds, and one unit of knights. Now, I've been told that a warrior army is viable, but I worry about how the game scales out. I've played very few Fantasy games, and those that I have played were with O&G. Let me tell you, I had one or two more models in that army...

Time to present the point. How exactly does Fantasy play out size-wise? I suppose I'm bordering on tactics when I ask if this kind of army is viable, but that's obviously a concern... Give me your thoughts, let me know what it is I'm missing (if anything).

Nukem
08-10-2008, 06:09
Chaos armies will always be small unless you take a crap ton of marauders. I recommend using the Chinese and Russian human wave tactic to protect your chosen with marauders.
I'll think of more things tomorrow, I'm shot.

Cheers,
Colin

Tarax
09-10-2008, 08:51
If you intend on playing Warriors of Chaos, the best thing is to wait a couple of weeks. In my experience, most rumours are not true, so the army you have built will not be legal and the tactics you foresee will not stand on the battlefield.

Also, if you are new to the game, start by playing some small battles and see what works and what doesn't. Add any unit you think will work better.

However, if your main problem is what size of army you should work towards, then the best thing to do is look what people around you play. Most people will play games of 2000-2500 points.

This is just some advise.

Braad
09-10-2008, 09:06
Large games play just as good as small ones. I played a 4000 points game 2 weeks ago, and it was awesome. I read stories here of armies of 10.000 vs 10.000 and that is still possible. On the other hand, using skirmish rules you can go below 200 points, and for 200-500 points we got the warbands rules. Anything higher works fine with normal rules, and for anything over 5000 you could consider a rulesset (can't think of the name, something with 'legendary' I think) that was published in WD a couple of months ago.

Some advise on WOC:
Play small units. Chaos warriors with a bit of upgrade do not need to rely on static combat resolution. If you just give them a shield and nothing else, you can play bigger, but the elites work just as well at 10-12 warriors in a unit. Just take several units.
Don't overdo it on characters. If you arrange some magic defense elsewhere, you can also play it with just 2 characters in 2000 points.

Duke Georgal
09-10-2008, 10:42
Every mortal chaos army I have seen has been small. Usually they have only one or two units of marauders as support.

Wait until the real rule book is released to see what is true about all the rumors.

Crispian25
09-10-2008, 15:24
I ran a 2000 point chaos army with I think 19 models (small unit of Chosen knights, chariot, 4 characters, something else, but I can't remember at work), but that was with the old Tzeentch rules, so I really kitted out my characters, and the battle was just one where I tried to make it as small as possible. With the new rules supposedly giving multiple attacks to warriors, you need smaller units. I highly recommend Marauders and marauder horsemen, but definitely go for about two small units of warriors to bring the hurt without creating a point sink. Wait a bit for the book to come out, and check out the army roster section to see comments on lists.

loveless
09-10-2008, 15:29
I'm curious as to the size of your Warrior units. Remember that, in general, Warriors win through Active Combat Resolution, not Static Combat Resolution. Units of 12 (2 ranks of 6) seem to be popular, and with the Mark of Nurgle, they should be more resilient to shooting damage.

How many points are you running, btw?

IronNerd
09-10-2008, 19:48
The way I set it up was one unit of 18 with shields, two units of 12 with extra hand weapon, all with MoN... because MoN is sexy... 2000 point army of course.

Helveticus
09-10-2008, 19:52
What are you going to do when you don't get the charge?

loveless
09-10-2008, 19:59
What are you going to do when you don't get the charge?

I'm assuming he's going to take the hits and hope that his 2+ (with shields) or 4+ (Extra hand weapon) saves will protect him, coupled with the -1WS debuff of the MoN.

On that note, I'd almost consider making the 2HW units larger than the Shield units, just because the Shield units are that much more resilient.

Other than that, you just as well cut out some paper and try the list out :p

Oh, and did you give the Hounds poisoned attacks to further the Nurgle theme?

Ward.
09-10-2008, 23:15
To be honest I think Woc will be most enjoyable at 3000 points, because you'll actually be able to take everything you want.

As for fantasy in general, it scales up pretty well but magic gets a bit dominating past 6000 pts.

loveless
10-10-2008, 14:11
I've found the same thing with Fantasy. In 40K, 1850-2250 point lists seem ideal, but in Fantasy most things seem cramped at 2000 points - i.e. it appears to lend itself to larger games. This is especially true with armies with expensive Lords - Vampires, Daemons, Warriors of Chaos, Lizardmen to some extent, etc. You want to be able to use the "cool" Lord, but it's a bit hard to fit him/her in 2000 points.

Alright, that was a bit off-topic, so I'll zip it now.

Ixquic
10-10-2008, 14:32
To be honest I think Woc will be most enjoyable at 3000 points, because you'll actually be able to take everything you want.

As for fantasy in general, it scales up pretty well but magic gets a bit dominating past 6000 pts.

This is how it is for me and VC. Under 3000 I never seem to be able to fit in dire wolves or corpse carts.

Helveticus
10-10-2008, 14:38
I'm assuming he's going to take the hits and hope that his 2+ (with shields) or 4+ (Extra hand weapon) saves will protect him, coupled with the -1WS debuff of the MoN.


So S6 is -3. 2+ becomes 5+ 4+ becomes nothing. Are they unbreakable? Stubborn? I didn't see anything in the list that's going to hurt my maneuverability, so I'm getting the charge with my big lances of knights... and first turn I think I can be pretty confident of wiping out his first rank.

Manny Xero
10-10-2008, 14:52
I personally loved the "cramped" feel of 2000 points. Being able to take a lot but not everything made me feel like some thought has to be put into your army composition. Do I want to field a unit of knights or do i want to give my lord a masticore? It also makes for variety because every army does not have everything.

Harwammer
10-10-2008, 15:04
I personally loved the "cramped" feel of 2000 points. Being able to take a lot but not everything made me feel like some thought has to be put into your army composition. Do I want to field a unit of knights or do i want to give my lord a masticore? It also makes for variety because every army does not have everything.

Seconded.

Above 2k points armies seem to get similar as you can always afford 'a bit of everything'.

loveless
10-10-2008, 15:09
So S6 is -3. 2+ becomes 5+ 4+ becomes nothing. Are they unbreakable? Stubborn? I didn't see anything in the list that's going to hurt my maneuverability, so I'm getting the charge with my big lances of knights... and first turn I think I can be pretty confident of wiping out his first rank.

Well, lucky for us, there are no Bretonnians in the area :p Or did you mean "lance" as in "weapon" and not "formation"?

I know IronNerd wants to go Warrior-heavy. Taking Cavalry into consideration, he may want to step up to two units of Knights. However, his character set-up could also affect what happens when charges crash into him.

What would you suggest he take to lessen army manueverability? Warriors of Chaos aren't known for their movement.

Plus, Knights Errant are going to be at WS2 against Nurgle-marked Warriors. Knights of the Realm are at WS3. Although the only way to get Strength 6 is with Grail Knights, who will be a more reasonable WS4 v. Nurgle.

As to other knights, Empire Inner Circle Knights can be S6, Cold One Knights are S6 on the charge, Black Knights are S6 on the charge, and Chaos Knights can be if you surrender the magic weapons. I don't know about Daemons, but that covers most of the Cavalry that aren't assured to kill you in the turn they charge. The Empire and Vampire units will be hitting at WS2 as well, which is going to diminish their hits.

Plus, Nurgle Sorcerers can take on Regeneration to an entire unit at a 7+ casting value. Cloying Quagmire can make short work of Human/Undead Knights. In fact, the whole Nurgle Lore for Warriors is deadly to knights (or heavy armour in general).

So let's say his characters are Sorcerers, kitted-out - with the tiniest bit of luck, he should be able to get Regeneration on his Warriors or knock out a good chunk of knights before they get into charge range. When they do get the charge (and let's face it, the knights WILL get the charge), they'll be lessened in numbers or dealing with a Regeneration Save in a Nurgle list. If those knights happen to be less than WS4, they're going to have a tough time hitting, and they'll have to be S6 to really take out that first rank of warriors.

So, true, a unit of Warriors alone is going to crumble before knights. But, properly supported by magic, marks, and probably cavalry (let's not be silly here), they're going to be a much harder target to take out than you think.