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Major Defense
14-11-2005, 04:45
Ever play a node campaign? The breakthrough scenario comes up often enough and it seems impossible for the attacker to win. You basically have to get 33% of your army's total points into the defender's deployment zone at the end of turn 6. But characters and monsters don't count toward this total so that's already quite limiting. Imagine a Skaven player trying to do this!! Either he has too many cheap blocks to fit into such an area or more probably ratling guns and WL cannons that you don't want to march across the table with. If you buy too many expensive characters or monsters it may be impossible to win from turn 1. That's not to mention that the terrain is supposed to be set up to block some avenues of approach for the attackers or that the defenders don't have to achieve anything except to draw your forces to the flanks so that the attackers never make it to their goal.

In the last breakthrough battle I played my BoC opponent completely destroyed everything in my army by turn 6 but was still over a hundred points short in my deployment zone...so I won? Meh.

So I have two questions. Am I crazy or is the breakthrough scenario just plain impossible for the attacker to win? What would you suggest as a way to fix the scenario or replace it in a node campaign?

T10
14-11-2005, 07:07
A couple of suggestions:

1) Don't count the characters!
One could disregard the points invested in characters and monsters and have the attacker bring across units worth at least one third of the remainder.

E.g. if the player spends 800 points on characters in a 2000 points game, then he needs to break trough with 400 points worth of troops.

2) Count the units!
Alternatively, you could go for a unit-count. Again, disregard characters and monsters. Count the number of applicable units. One third of this number must break though.

I do not recall how the scenario ordinarilly works, but if units below half strength are worth half its points then count each unit reduced to half strength as half a unit.

-T10

Festus
14-11-2005, 08:18
Hi

The answer is rather simple IMO:
You will have to rush it into your oponents deployment zone, regardless of casualties.

It is a very different approach fro the open battle, where you try to maximise the effectivity of your units: Here you will have to sacrifice large parts to achieve the aim.

Example:

A Dwarf player is used to form a gunline with a few supporting units. In this scenario he has to use lots and lots of Dwarf units to achieve success. Just set them up and let them advance. This will bring 33% in the enemy's deployment zone on turn 6. I promise.

Either many fast units or many big blocks are the key here.


Either he has too many cheap blocks to fit into such an area or more probably ratling guns and WL cannons that you don't want to march across the table with. If you buy too many expensive characters or monsters it may be impossible to win from turn 1.

He cannot have too many cheap blocks: He has to attack in waves. And the characters should just try to make room for your advancing blocks, by taking on skirmishers, War Machines, Marchblockers...


In the last breakthrough battle I played my BoC opponent completely destroyed everything in my army by turn 6 but was still over a hundred points short in my deployment zone...so I won? Meh.
This is exactly what I said before: YOu lost the victory conditions out of sight as soon as the battle began and fought it like an open battle. That is not the point in a Breakthrough scenario.

The scenarios are there to force new tactical problems onto the players to try to overcome.
The Flank Attack is even more broken, as is the last stand...
...but both can be won if you remember the victory conditions.

Greetings
Festus

I am sorry that I wrote tactics here, as this is what the post of the OP basically is about

T10
14-11-2005, 09:15
The Breakthrough scenario is a tough cookie, and I agree that is is weighed against the attacker.

Of course, a good army and a good player can win anything, and in this particular scenario strategy is perhaps more important than tactics - the attack has to keep his eye on the goal for the long run.

For the discussion on how to win the Breakthrough scenario the proper place is the Tactics forum.

This thread should rather discuss wether or not it is flawed and present options to fix.

-T10

Festus
14-11-2005, 09:19
Hi
This thread should rather discuss wether or not it is flawed and present options to fix.
Then it should go into the Rules Development Forum, or shouldn't it? :)
From a rules perspective, the scenario is crystal-clear.
Greetings
Festus

Griefbringer
14-11-2005, 10:38
If there is a need to alter the balance of the scenario, then giving the attacker some extra points (say 10-20% more) could be a simple solution. Or have defender keeping part of his forces in reserve, only entering the table on turn X.

Then again, for some armies this scenario should be easier - say an all-mounted Bretonnian force.

Morph
14-11-2005, 12:55
I pretty much totally agree with the original point. Breakthrough is stupidly difficult for the attacker. This is especially true if you aren't tailoring your army for the game since suddenly all your warmachines etc. become far less useful. Plus it ruins some armies far more than others. We've had great players lose to terrible players at this scenario.

It's far too easy to block and flank an army that is basically just running towards you as Festus suggests.

I'd suggest toning it down to 25% to win. Maybe even 20%.

Festus
14-11-2005, 13:17
Hi

Still a tactics discussion. Can someone move it, then please...


...suddenly all your warmachines etc. become far less useful. Plus it ruins some armies far more than others. We've had great players lose to terrible players at this scenario.
WarMachines are still very useful, but you will have to change your targets.
In an open battle, you will eliminate the most powerful units with your WMs, now you will have to use them more strategically than tactically:

Eliminate the flanking units, the marchblockers, and similar units. They will hinder your rush to the other side.

Once you arrive there in force, the defender may well pummel you to a fraction of your former sternght, but this usually will result in a win for you, as you only need to have a third of your forces intact to win.


It's far too easy to block and flank an army that is basically just running towards you as Festus suggests.
I don't suggest *just running*, I suggest rushing the enemy: Take the initiative, attack and advance quickly but steadily.
Use your flankers to keep the way open for the main regiments, don't bother about surviving or the odds - as long as it lets you cross the field quicker, it will be worth it.

The same goes for characters, use them to open up your path. Remember they do not count for victory, so you can just as well sacrifice them for the greater good: bind and tar-pit enemy troops for a turn or two, chase flankes away or make them come after the character to free your units.

I do agree, Breakthough is hard to win - if you try to win by smashing the enemy. If you try to rush him and set all the different resources to this one goal, it is not that hard anymore.

Greetings
Festus

NakedFisherman
14-11-2005, 14:11
A couple of suggestions:

1) Don't count the characters!
One could disregard the points invested in characters and monsters and have the attacker bring across units worth at least one third of the remainder.

E.g. if the player spends 800 points on characters in a 2000 points game, then he needs to break trough with 400 points worth of troops.

2) Count the units!
Alternatively, you could go for a unit-count. Again, disregard characters and monsters. Count the number of applicable units. One third of this number must break though.

I do not recall how the scenario ordinarilly works, but if units below half strength are worth half its points then count each unit reduced to half strength as half a unit.

-T10


We used option 2. I won it old school style, but I played against Dwarfs. :p

Major Defense
14-11-2005, 14:13
Festus, I think that your comments are shortsighted and ignore or dismiss the concerns expressed. Warmachines useful?!? Pfffh!! That is just my opinion but I would like to thank T10 and others for staying on topic. We may just replace this scenario with another one for the purposes of our node campaign.

Festus
14-11-2005, 14:29
Hi


Festus, I think that your comments are shortsighted and ignore or dismiss the concerns expressed.
I do neither ignore nor dismiss anything, nor am I shortsighted, thank you very much :mad:
If OTOH you mean that I ignore such pearls of tactical wisdom like:

Warmachines useful?!? Pfffh!!
you are very right indeed.:rolleyes:

I am pointing out that it is very well possible to play and win this scenario if you set your mind to it. So Itry to answer the question that you as the OP asked to begin with:

Am I crazy or is the breakthrough scenario just plain impossible for the attacker to win?

And I just can repeat: I don't know anything about the former (although I could make a good guess :eyebrows: ), but I will answer the latter:
It is not impossible nor very hard to win the scenario if you try and remember the victory conditions.

For tactical advise, I can refer you to the posts above.



That is just my opinion but I would like to thank T10 and others for staying on topic.

I love to be of service.:angel:

Greetings
Festus