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Famder
08-10-2008, 23:36
This is a discussion from the Lizardmen thread in N&R.


BRB says

concerning their movement if stupid it says "This counts as compulsory movement and so occurs before other movement, but after charges have been declared.

Frenzy says In the declare charges part of the movement phase, after charges of all non-frenzied troops have been declared (including relative charge reactions), measure to see if any enemies are within charge reach of any Frenzied troops (ie, within the unit's charge move and in their normal arc of sight) If so, the Frenzied unit must declare a charge against that enemy. The player has no choice in the matter; the unit will AUTOMATICALLY make its charge move.

Word for word. Frenzy charges are not the same as normal charges, they happen automatically. So this overrides the movement phase steps of Compulsory movement then Move charging troops and resolve other movement resulting from the charge.

Doesn't matter that they are stupid and how they were "intended to move" at that roll, the frenzy kicks in and makes them move without choice.

Should it work this way? Perhaps not and I do recall it did not in 6th however this is 7th and thats how it goes.

Same thing can apply for Siren effect in daemons, they force you to charge and ITP from being stupid does not matter since Siren ignores it. The charge is not voluntary so the fact you are stupid and could not declare it in your Declare Charges phase of your own accord does not matter.

There is no rule stating that units cannot move any other way but at half movement if they are stupid, it just says they are moved half speed in compulsory movement phase. If a charge is declared somehow (frenzy, siren) then that charge goes through.

You are honestly being silly. Charges are declared before compulsory moves, but charges are moved after compulsory moves. On top of that if you read the Stupidity section of the BRB it states that the stupidity roll is done at the start of a player's turn. So a frenzied unit will already know if it is allowed to move normally before frenzy has a chance to kick in.

But to dispute the logic you use, yes you would declare a charge due to frenzy, but would automatically fail because nowhere does it say it prevents a creature from making compulsory moves. So a charge would be declared and failed when the stupid creature is forced to move straight forward, and because it moved already can't move again. After all, you aren't going to say a unit that failed a charge earlier in the phase can move again in the remaining moves part of the phase.

SolarHammer
08-10-2008, 23:43
How about a fleeing unit with the Banner of Rage? The unit keeps its Frenzy even though it is fleeing. Does that unit have to charge even though it has to flee?

HELLS NO.

Compulsory movement is compulsory. No amount of Frenzy-ing can stop it.

MonkeyLord
08-10-2008, 23:49
Well, technically, a fleeing unit is no longer frenzied, consider the only way that unit is fleeing is because it has it has lost a combat, was broken, and fled. :)

But that aside, I agree. Frenzy doesn't force charges in situations where the unit in question *couldn't* charge in the first place.

Einholt
08-10-2008, 23:53
Just read the frenzy rules in 7th please.

Spirit
09-10-2008, 00:08
How about a fleeing unit with the Banner of Rage? The unit keeps its Frenzy even though it is fleeing. Does that unit have to charge even though it has to flee?

HELLS NO.

Compulsory movement is compulsory. No amount of Frenzy-ing can stop it.

Last time i checked when you flee you drop all banners.

Chiungalla
09-10-2008, 04:33
Just read the frenzy rules in 7th please.

Just read the stupidy rules in 7th!

Stupidy kicks in at the beginning of the turn, not in the compulsory movement phase (that is only when the movement takes place, all other rules are in place from the start of the turn).

And stupidy says, you can't declare charges and don't double your movement for attacks, but have only half your movement this turn, and if you reach an opponent you charge them.

Frenzy needs legal targets within charge range, and the charge range is lowered by the stupidy right at the start of the turn, before charges are declared.


There is no rule stating that units cannot move any other way but at half movement if they are stupid

But there is a rule that says, that they can't declare charges.
And that is what you do because of frenzy. If you have a choice or not doesn't matter.
If you are forced to do something that you can't at all, you will not do it anyway.

The same goes, by the way, with the siren standard, and stupidy.
If the unit is stupid, they can't declare charges, and are immun to the standard.

@ Spirit:
But you loose frenzy after you have lost a round of combat and before you take a break test (which is very important if you fight fear causing opponents). And at that time you still have got the banner. So you don't loose frenzy.

SolarHammer
09-10-2008, 04:43
@ Spirit:
But you loose frenzy after you have lost a round of combat and before you take a break test (which is very important if you fight fear causing opponents). And at that time you still have got the banner. So you don't loose frenzy.

Right, so they keep Frenzy after at least one defeat in combat even if broken.

Braad
09-10-2008, 05:36
Yes, that's the effect of the banner of rage. Though I got to say I never considered that they would loose their frenzy after having run of... For some reason, we often forget that banners are left behind.

AFAIK, half movement for stupidity IS your movement for that turn, and not additional movement, and that's how it is described in the book. So, it replaces any other movement, like for example a frenzy-caused charge.

Now, since this seemed to cause a lot of discussion elsewhere, there's probably something itty in the rules, but I can't check. I'll be back at my books tomorrow...

DeathlessDraich
09-10-2008, 08:34
Last time i checked when you flee you drop all banners.

Hmm. Isn't there a recent army FAQ that modified this?
I'm not entirely sure though.

T10
09-10-2008, 09:07
So a frenzied unit will already know if it is allowed to move normally before frenzy has a chance to kick in.

This is true. Stupidity limits the unit's "ability to charge" to being the first enemy unit it gets into contact with as it moves. And it is limited to moving straight ahead at half movement.

Frenzy only triggers a charge if the unit can reach the target, and in the case of a Stupid unit the charge options are simply a lot more limited.

-T10

T10
09-10-2008, 09:10
Hmm. Isn't there a recent army FAQ that modified this?
I'm not entirely sure though.

Last time I checked the unit only loses its banner if it breaks from combat.

Merely fleeing for some reason is not enough.

-T10

Einholt
09-10-2008, 22:13
Stupidity does not say you cannot charge it just says cannot declare Voluntary charges, it doesn't say this turn you cannot move more then half, it says in the compulsory movement you move half. It does not adjust your movement value.

Frenzy triggers involuntary charges ( so stupidity has no effect) after voluntary charges but completes them before other charges (which happen after compulsory movement) but it also happens automatically rather then a regular declared charge and before compulsory movement.

SolarHammer
09-10-2008, 22:17
Yup, it certainly does include the word "voluntary" on page 52. Frenzy being involuntary would not be affected.

Gazak Blacktoof
10-10-2008, 00:30
I'm glad these conflicts have never come up in any game I've ever played. My greenskin shamans have suffered from the effects of both types of psychology simultaneously but they've either died, not been able to charge or passed their stupidity test before I've beeen forced to resolve their interaction. Looks like I better brush up on the stupidity rules before I start using my cold one knights just in case something similar comes up.




My take on it would be that the bonus movement is probably unintended.

The rules as they stand do seem to indicate the unit can actual move further than twice its movement characteristic with a failed stupidity + frenzied charge interaction. This is situation is very odd, though an extremely rare occurrence, and I would be happy enough to play it by RAW. Most of the time the bonus move is unlikely to assist in completing the charge though it might dissuade a unit from fleeing or allow a larger tactical wheel against a unit of skirmishers.

WLBjork
10-10-2008, 04:20
Frenzy triggers involuntary charges ( so stupidity has no effect) after voluntary charges but completes them before other charges (which happen after compulsory movement) but it also happens automatically rather then a regular declared charge and before compulsory movement.

Say what?

A frenzied Charge is still a charge, and so is moved in the Move Chargers sub-phase.

In other words, it happens after the Compulsory Movement sub-phase.

I suppose that a unit could still use it's remaining M allowance to attempt to complete the charge, but that would result in it moving only 1.5 times it's M value, not 2.5 times!

SolarHammer
10-10-2008, 04:25
Stupidity means it moves forward half its move allowance in compulsory moves and prevents voluntary charges only. Frenzy is an involuntary charge which is declared after regular charges are declared and the unit will "automatically make its charge move."
Frenzy overrides Stupidity, and there is no business about moving extra far or 1.5 times its move value.
Stupidity would just have no effect.

Famder
10-10-2008, 04:25
Stupidity does not say you cannot charge it just says cannot declare Voluntary charges, it doesn't say this turn you cannot move more then half, it says in the compulsory movement you move half. It does not adjust your movement value.

Frenzy triggers involuntary charges ( so stupidity has no effect) after voluntary charges but completes them before other charges (which happen after compulsory movement) but it also happens automatically rather then a regular declared charge and before compulsory movement.

That's honestly just stupid logic. Yes it says you can't voluntarily declare a charge, but that is most likely meant to differentiate the stupidity charge from a normal charge. Also, nowhere in Frenzy does it say you are not affected by stupidity, so you are forced to move in the compulsory move phase. You cannot move more than once per movement phase. If you move in the compulsory phase you cannot move in the move charges phase.

By your logic, I am allowed to move my unit that failed a charge in the remaining moves phase, because nowhere in the "failed" charge section does it say I cannot move in the remaining move phase. The only charge you can be compelled to do by frenzy while stupid is one straight ahead and at half movement.

SolarHammer
10-10-2008, 04:29
Frenzy specifically says its charge is "automatically made." No restriction in Stupidity exists to prevent that.


You cannot move more than once per movement phase. If you move in the compulsory phase you cannot move in the move charges phase.
According to what? Your examples about failed charges is wrong because it says the unit "halts once it has covered its normal Move distance" which sounds suspiciously like saying you cannot move further.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
10-10-2008, 05:38
I came in agreeing with the first guy, and leave agreeing with the second. That rarely happens. Hooray for learning!

Oh, and calling someone's logic "stupid" is like putting a big sign on your face that says, "my arguments are backed up by my infailable reasoning so you'll never change my mind." We can disagree without being jerks, can't we?

Plus, it must be hard to see with a sign in front of your face. Unless there are holes in it. Are there holes in it? I hope there are holes in it.

The Red Scourge
10-10-2008, 06:05
How about a fleeing unit with the Banner of Rage? The unit keeps its Frenzy even though it is fleeing. Does that unit have to charge even though it has to flee?

Just to spite you. You drop your banner, when you flee so no more frenzy for you ;)

SolarHammer
10-10-2008, 06:10
But you only lose frenzy when you lose combat.

So you lose combat, still have banner, don't lose frenzy, flee, lose the banner.

Fleeing doesn't make you lose frenzy and at the time when they would have lost frenzy, they still had their banner.

Nurgling Chieftain
10-10-2008, 07:16
I think the Stupidity move in the compulsory movement uses up their entire movement allowance - of half their normal move. They're then done for the phase. You don't get to move more once your movement allowance for the phase is used up. Frankly, I don't think you get to move twice in the movement phase regardless.

SolarHammer
10-10-2008, 07:20
Frenzy says they automatically move. Stupidity says nothing about preventing involuntary charges, and nothing in the rules actually forbids moving a unit twice.

Seems to be all systems go.

Also note that the rules for subsequent actions of fleeing troops on page 46 doesn't prevent them from issuing involuntary charges either.

They are only prohibited from fighting, shooting and using magic.

Make of that what you will.

Gazak Blacktoof
10-10-2008, 08:15
I think the Stupidity move in the compulsory movement uses up their entire movement allowance - of half their normal move. They're then done for the phase. You don't get to move more once your movement allowance for the phase is used up. Frankly, I don't think you get to move twice in the movement phase regardless.

This is what I thought too before I had a read the rules sections for stupidity, frenzy and compulsory moves again. There doesn't appear to be anything prohibiting the sequence of events Solarhammer is describing.

There are lots of situations where a unit moves further than twice its movement characteristic, twice in a turn or twice in a phase - spells, items, pursuit, fleeing, wheel to align, animosity etc - so its not out of the bounds of the norm for warhammer fantasy.

I also agree with Solarhammer that the timing of the banner drop probably also means that you could have a frenzied unit fleeing from combat. That's just wrong and I'd be inclined to ignore what the rules say in this situation if my opponent was happy to do the same, its one of those moments that can shatter the suspension of disbelief surrounding a TTWG.

Famder
10-10-2008, 10:07
Oh, and calling someone's logic "stupid" is like putting a big sign on your face that says, "my arguments are backed up by my infailable reasoning so you'll never change my mind." We can disagree without being jerks, can't we?

Plus, it must be hard to see with a sign in front of your face. Unless there are holes in it. Are there holes in it? I hope there are holes in it.
Glad to see hypocrisy is still in style. And calling logic stupid is not different that saying "you're wrong" in my colloquialisms, its purely a cultural thing.


Frenzy says they automatically move. Stupidity says nothing about preventing involuntary charges, and nothing in the rules actually forbids moving a unit twice.
No, Frenzy says they automatically declare a charge, they don't move until the normal phase where that should happen, if anything impedes them they will still not make their charge.


Your examples about failed charges is wrong because it says the unit "halts once it has covered its normal Move distance" which sounds suspiciously like saying you cannot move further.
It only says that's where they stop their failed charge, nothing would stop them from marching in the remaining moves phase, by the logic being used to support frenzy enabling a stupid unit to charge anyway.

Gazak Blacktoof
10-10-2008, 10:17
It only says that's where they stop their failed charge, nothing would stop them from marching in the remaining moves phase, by the logic being used to support frenzy enabling a stupid unit to charge anyway.

You're right, that's even more odd. I'd always thought that failing your stupidity test prevented any other movement but reading it again you can still move and even march.

Freaky.

OldMaster
10-10-2008, 14:41
I honestly believe this was not the intention, seriously...
No matter the outcome of this thread, I will always judge that a failed charge is just bad luck for the player..... for sure...
The Frenzy/Stupidity thing is seriously fun - I do wonder why no one discussed this before, though.

Manny Xero
10-10-2008, 15:25
I have to ask how this situation would ever come up. When you suffer the effects of stupidity you become ItP. When you are frenzied you are also ItP. So which ever one applied first would simply ignore the other psychology.

If you are frenzied and something gives you stupidity, then by the rules of ItP, you automatically pass your stupidity test until you loose frenzy. It's not that stupidity does not apply it's just that the ItP means you don't roll for it and pretty much ignore the rule.

There is no way, (to the best of my knowledge) to give a unit frenzy after it has failed its stupidity test but before the movement phase. Please remember that movement comes before magic, shooting or close combat.

Saying this I beleive you guys are having a rather pointless argument. Bottom line: If a unit has both frenzy and stupidity, that unit will ignore stupidity.

Gazak Blacktoof
10-10-2008, 15:29
Immunity to psychology does not allow you to ignore frenzy or stupidity. ItP allows you to ignore fear, terror and panic. Have a look at the ItP rules.

Manny Xero
10-10-2008, 15:31
Doh! You are right you only automatically pass panic fear and terror. Makes me wonder what the difference between the MoS and ItP is other than gaining the ability to flee.

Gazak Blacktoof
10-10-2008, 15:54
I think that's it essentially, though there are a few specific effects that are ignored by ItP units that the mark of slaanesh wont allow you to ignore.

Nurgling Chieftain
10-10-2008, 20:14
There are lots of situations where a unit moves further than twice its movement characteristic, twice in a turn or twice in a phase - spells, items, pursuit, fleeing, wheel to align, animosity etc - so its not out of the bounds of the norm for warhammer fantasy.By that argument, you might as well just move a unit two (or three or more) times in your remaining moves. No. You need an exception to get more than your normal move allotment, a stupidity uses up that allotment before any non-compulsory movement can occur.

Gazak Blacktoof
10-10-2008, 20:31
Wouldn't the rules that we've been discussing count as an exception?

I'm not sure.

I don't think any of us have been playing the rules as they are written with regards to stupidity. I rarely see stupid units used, or use them myself, but before participating in this thread I didn't think you could could move and certainly not march after failing a stupidity test, did you? That's what the rules seem to indicate you can do.

I can see what you're saying about not being able to move more than your move distance or twice your move distance if marching. I don't know if the stupid move is an exception or not but it certainly doesn't appear to use up the unit's entire move allowance and I don't know if it uses up any of it.

The safe bet is probably to do what we've all be doing up to this point which is counting the "stupid move" as the only one the unit can make that turn.

This area of the rules obviously needs an FAQ or Errata.

ReaperOfSouls
10-10-2008, 22:44
I was very sure that the compulsory move was all they were allowed for the turn they are stupid, but it seems that the rule don't actually forbid moving again in the remaining moves phase. I would still beleive that the intent of the rule is that they cannot move after their stupidity move and that is the way I would play it if I used stupid troops.

Another thing I just noticed is that the rule never actually mentions how you test for stupidity, they just say you have to make a test, not what kind of test it is ;)

Famder
11-10-2008, 01:45
In the psych section it says that all psych tests are Ld tests.


There are lots of situations where a unit moves further than twice its movement characteristic, twice in a turn or twice in a phase - spells, items, pursuit, fleeing, wheel to align, animosity etc - so its not out of the bounds of the norm for warhammer fantasy.
There are a couple of situations where you can move twice a turn, but I can only think of a single example where you can move more than once per movement phase. That one exception is Animosity tests for O&G, which specifically describe the additional movement as just that. No other army I can think of gets that exception. Magical means of moving again are irrelevant because they take place in a different phase, thus bypassing the "only once per phase" limit the rest of us have been arguing in favor of.

WLBjork
11-10-2008, 09:02
The only limit for movement that I can find is on page 12, where units are limited to moving no more than their M value, with a small number of exceptions.

After re-reading Frenzy several time, and finally finding the word "automatically" in there, I retract my previous statement.

A Frenzied unit behaving Stupidly within charge reach of one or more enemies at the end of the declare chargers subphase will still perform the charge.

Although completely not supported by the rules, I'd randomise in the event of more than one unit being within range - I can just hear the General now "Charge the Spearmen. No the Spearmen! Oh, heck, they charged the Swordmasters..."

Gazak Blacktoof
11-10-2008, 09:49
@Famder

I can't see anything in the rules to prevent a unit moving more than once in the movement phase. As I pointed out and WLBjork stated there's a limit on movement travelled (which I had forgotten in an earlier post) but noting to suggest you can't move, stop and move again.

Stupidity should prevent all additional movement but it doesn't.

I'll discuss it with my group and we'll probably continue to play the same way we always have.