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General Squeek Squeek
09-10-2008, 07:10
So I've been considering using my giant rat pack from my skaven army as a flanking unit. Basically They'll be 1 wide and 7 deep. For appearance sake I have the packmaster on a mini chariot being pulled by the giant rats. How cheesy is this combo though???

SolarHammer
09-10-2008, 07:25
Nowadays it's just fine.

At least it's somewhat of a tactic as opposed to some of the stuff winning GT's these days.

Braad
09-10-2008, 09:09
Do remember that you cannot 'snake' anymore, so moving with such a long unit might be difficult. But it should be doable.

You'll have te explain a bit more on what it will do, though... I can see few attacks made against the unit, but they'll also make few attacks back. So 3 enemies will get a chance at hacking 1 rat?!?

Shamfrit
09-10-2008, 10:24
The principle is similar to reforming skeleton archers from the Tomb King list and 'lancing' a unit to take as little damage from CR as possible. Although it is a viable option you have to remember that you're not getting any leadership bonus from the SiN rule and thus a loss of one means you're testing on, say, 5-6 at best? That's if the Warlord/Master Moulder is near.

That being said however, since the Giant Rat pack is not a skirmishers it will break ranks. Keeping them in one long row of 7 means those three models in base contact will have to kill 3 rats in order to not have their rank bonus taken and give you flank. In a supporting role to another another in a frontal charge, this is a very good tactics to use. It is a cheap, fast moving alternative to Slave blocks, which are often shot out of the way and gives you a 30 point combat winner.

Go for it!

General Squeek Squeek
09-10-2008, 13:11
this units sole purpose is a supporting role. With only 2 attacks (1 rat + whip) I don't expect them to hurt anyone. Their only job is to break ranks. With that done and my main blocks hitting their front I'm hoping to really help out my static combat res.

SolarHammer
09-10-2008, 17:07
Do remember that you cannot 'snake' anymore, so moving with such a long unit might be difficult. But it should be doable.

You'll have te explain a bit more on what it will do, though... I can see few attacks made against the unit, but they'll also make few attacks back. So 3 enemies will get a chance at hacking 1 rat?!?

Do you have any idea how easy it is to wheel with a unit one model wide? The front guy is the outside guy, so you're measuring maybe half an inch to do a 360.

Bac5665
09-10-2008, 17:10
Not cheesy at all. I applaud your creativity, and wish your tactic luck.

And the model sounds awesome.

The Red Scourge
09-10-2008, 20:04
Very un-gentlemanlike tactic, and should be met with swift retaliation from red whipping-sticks :eyebrows:

This is on par with conga lines and other rules abuse, so please don't the fact that you have to ask alone, should tell you that this is very unsportsmanslike conduct :)

Lord_Squinty
09-10-2008, 20:15
Very un-gentlemanlike tactic,

Which makes it VERY Skaven ;)

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
09-10-2008, 20:16
It just seems a very game-like thing and not a very war-like thing to do. I'm not sure if that makes much sense. I mean it takes a flesh-and-blood army out of the Warhammer world and puts a plastic-glue-and-paint army smack dab on a wooden table in the middle of a gaming store.

But hey, if your opponents appreciate clever using/abusing of the rules, go for it.

Wargamejunkie
09-10-2008, 20:55
While I would would give you odd looks for a 1 wide model.

If you went through the trouble of building a unique model for it I would say go for it.

Of all the things the people can abuse, ws 3 s 3 no armour save rats with Ld6 are not one that I worry about.

I personally have thought about doing something like 2/3 wide for a while, just never got around to it.

w3rm
10-10-2008, 00:14
Very interesting as a skaven player myself i might have to try that. Excellent for negating rank bounus. But thats how we skaven roll.

General Squeek Squeek
10-10-2008, 05:13
Very interesting as a skaven player myself i might have to try that. Excellent for negating rank bounus. But thats how we skaven roll.

This is what I thought. Nowadays with static combat res going the way of the dodo I've trying to make a horde that is still viable ;). Like I said earlier its going to be modeled to be a "rat chariot" with the packmaster in the back with whip in hand.

Lord Dan
10-10-2008, 06:00
You have my support, with the condition that you post pictures of the model.

gerrymander61
10-10-2008, 16:11
The cheesy way to do it would be to deploy the packmaster at the front of the unit so that way the enemy could only ever kill 1 model, leaving you with 6 rats in his flank and him with no rank bonus.

Peetus
14-10-2008, 11:58
Can anyone clarify the rules on this - as far as i was aware the flanking unit had to have atleast 4/5 models in the first rank in order to negate enemy rank bonuses.

theunwantedbeing
14-10-2008, 12:08
Flanking is based around unit strength, not number of models in contact, or unit the unit even.

As for wheeling such a unit. You measure the wheel for them guy who moves furthest, which is not the front guy in really thin but deep formations like the above.

I would like to see pictures of this rat pack chariot.

ZeroTwentythree
14-10-2008, 21:03
Consider how much space you will need next to a unit for that 7-figure line to stick out perpendicular on the flank. You will likely get countercharged or simple not have enough room. This also means that you're spreading your units wide across the battle line, which means fewer will be in range of the general's LD, so you will suffer in that respect as well.

While everyone can argue about whether or not it's sportsmanlike, I just don't think it's practical.

Shamfrit
14-10-2008, 21:25
Sportsmanlike?

Zero, you disgust me - when did sportsmanship ever come into the Skaven thinking?

SolarHammer
14-10-2008, 21:31
Flanking is based around unit strength, not number of models in contact, or unit the unit even.

As for wheeling such a unit. You measure the wheel for them guy who moves furthest, which is not the front guy in really thin but deep formations like the above.

Wrong. You measure from the "outside model." See p.12 for the rule and p.13 for a diagram which shows the outside model is always a front rank model.

This is why Bret lances are retarded too, and is the basis for the goblin slingshot.

SlaaneshSlave
14-10-2008, 22:53
So... it is now unsportsmanlike to take away ranks...

with rank and file infantry...

the only way to do this is with fliers? Fast Cav? skirmishers?

Infantry is SO cheese!

Mannfred
15-10-2008, 10:00
Love it to me skaven should be filled with dirty tricks;

ZeroTwentythree
15-10-2008, 15:51
Sportsmanlike?

Zero, you disgust me - when did sportsmanship ever come into the Skaven thinking?

Please note, I didn't say it was unsportsmanlike. ;)

I just acknowledged that everyone else talking about whether it was sportsmanlike or not was irrelevant compared to issues of practicality

I wouldn't care if someone did it to me since it would be easy to flank the flankers or just prevent them from getting on the flank in the first place, because they need a 7-base wide gap in which to put the torpedo. I would never do it myself because it's a bad tactical move in most cases.



Love it to me skaven should be filled with dirty tricks;

Dirty tricks that actually work are even better.;)

Lord Dan
15-10-2008, 16:28
Infantry is SO cheese!

I've actually been laughing for a while, I'm just making note of it now.

And where are the pictures that you never technically promised to give, Zero?

ZeroTwentythree
15-10-2008, 18:12
And where are the pictures that you never technically promised to give, Zero?



Oh god, this has been a long week already. What pictures are you speaking of?

I hope you're not speaking of the ones from that night with the Tequila and... oh, will that youthful indiscretion forever haunt me???

JonnyTHM
15-10-2008, 18:18
To be clear, it's better than people earlier in the thread implied. It doesn't matter how many you kill in the round of combat, if you deny ranks at the beginning of the combat, they have no rank bonus until the end of the phase.

My rat packs are 4 wide, and made of a single pack. They hit the flank, and you don't get rank bonuses. It usually more than makes up for any extra wounds you might get against the giant rats.

Going one wide reduces the number of attacks you take, but I do agree that it presents too long of a flank for a rescue charge. You don't want to give your opponent a free +1 for flank. The likelihood that the reduction in number of attacks you receive at your giant rats will give you the flank bonus aswell is pretty small.

Especially if you're doing a chariot model, I'd say go with two or three wide, that way you have a decent sized base to use too.

theunwantedbeing
15-10-2008, 18:27
Wrong. You measure from the "outside model." See p.12 for the rule and p.13 for a diagram which shows the outside model is always a front rank model.

This is why Bret lances are retarded too, and is the basis for the goblin slingshot.

It doesnt specificially state that the outside model is the one at the other end of the leading edge though.
Anyway, your opponent is going to have to agree to let you do that.
Page 3, The most Important rule

Bit like declaring charges you "think" are in range but know are clearly not.
Your the one interpretting the rules in a rediculous and unintended way and while it may not really be possible to disprove that you are doing anything underhanded, it is still underhanded.

Anywho...so long as you arent using the daft wheeling "interpretation" there's nothing wrong with it. More so if the model is especially hailarious.

Dexter099
03-11-2008, 00:15
Very un-gentlemanlike tactic, and should be met with swift retaliation from red whipping-sticks :eyebrows:

This is on par with conga lines and other rules abuse, so please don't the fact that you have to ask alone, should tell you that this is very unsportsmanslike conduct :)

So I guess it's just so cheesy to flank anyone. I guess I should make sure that all of my goblin archers should not actually take the flank charge, as that would be abusing the rules. In fact, I should wait until you turn. To be extremely gentelmanly, I should let you charge me.

We can't have any intelligent strategy going on here, no sir!

Lord Dan
03-11-2008, 00:32
To be extremely gentelmanly, I should let you charge me.

It's all about being a gentleman.

Warhammer: the game of tea socials and gentlemanly afternoon political conversation :)

Djekar
03-11-2008, 07:18
It's all about being a gentleman.

Warhammer: the game of tea socials and gentlemanly afternoon political conversation

That's why I play O&G and WoC. Their idea of gentelmanly invovles lots of sharp objects flying at people who either aren't looking or can't defend themselves. When all else fails, redefine the rules.

Lord Dan
03-11-2008, 23:12
Their idea of gentelmanly invovles lots of sharp objects flying at people who either aren't looking or can't defend themselves.

Opponent: "What's that hero armed with?"

Djekar: "A mundane hand weapon."

Opponent: "Alright, I guess I'll accept the challenge..."

Djekar: "Cool. Okay my Chaos lord attacks...4 hits. Lets see, my S7 against your T4 will nee-"

Opponent: "What? I thought he had a hand weapon?!"

Djekar: "He does. ...well, technically I paid for a great weapon. He's just a big strong chaos lord so I modelled him holding it in one hand."

Opponent: "Dude, that's outright cheating!"

Djekar: "Suck on the Chaos, b&^#4!"


:p

minionboy
04-11-2008, 01:02
Sportsman like or not, it is against the rules.

The rulebook says the outside model, it doesn't say the model at the other end of the front rank, although in it's examples the front rank is the widest. Here is the rule quote:

"When it wheels, the entire uinits counts as having moved as far as the outside model."

If you have a line that is 1x10 and try to rotate, then the furthest model back is the outside of the wheel. Any other model is not on the outside of the rotation, so obviously, you can't have the inside model count as the outside of the unit.

So for negating ranks, the rat torpedo would be quite difficult to maneuver and easily countered. Not worth it to be called a cheater (which you would be) and possibly lose a tourney over getting lots of 0's for sportsmanship.

SolarHammer
04-11-2008, 02:16
Everyone I've ever seen playing Warhammer anywhere, at any event, large or small, wheels from the front. Bret players ESPECIALLY. Yes it's stupid, but it's what the rules support (via diagram if nothing else). Hell, the back model will ALWAYS move more than the front models in any wheel, but NO ONE does it for normal infantry, so why should they for other units?

Even if you have a compass and you're good at geometry, I dare you to accurately gauge the distance a model in the back rank of a unit moves with enough time left to finish the game.

General Squeek Squeek
04-11-2008, 03:24
well after trying this tactic out in 3 different games I'll be retiring it as a very poor tactic. None of my opponents found it cheesy or even complained about it, but it was a worthless tactic on the battlefield. As has already been said anyone who so much as pointed a gun its way sent the pack running. In addition even if you wheeled from the front the maneuvering was ridiculous and only worked twice( both times its was barely worth the effort).

On a side note I think this tactic has cursed me a bit. Before I put this tactic on the field I won far more often then I lost, but after using these torpedoes I haven't won a single game in the last few weeks even after retiring this tactic (total of 9 games).

Djekar
04-11-2008, 05:42
General Squeek -
sorry to hear that it didn't work out for you (especially since it appears to have had an impact on your later games via The Curse). I hate it when stuff that sounds awesome turns out to be less than.f

Lord Dan -

Djekar: "Suck on the Chaos, b&^#4!"

are you spying on me? 'cause seriously, sometimes I say that to my opponents! :D

General Squeek Squeek
04-11-2008, 13:39
oh well its one of those thing that you think looks better on paper then it really is. I am kinda sad though I really like the packmaster riding the minichariot i modeled him on. Oh well I guess I'll still keep him on it in the normal unit, but it just won't look the same.

theunwantedbeing
04-11-2008, 14:13
Everyone I've ever seen playing Warhammer anywhere, at any event, large or small, wheels from the front. Bret players ESPECIALLY. Yes it's stupid, but it's what the rules support (via diagram if nothing else). Hell, the back model will ALWAYS move more than the front models in any wheel, but NO ONE does it for normal infantry, so why should they for other units?

Even if you have a compass and you're good at geometry, I dare you to accurately gauge the distance a model in the back rank of a unit moves with enough time left to finish the game.

Considering that to be able to wheel the unit still moves the back models all the way around behind the unit, rather than each rank wheeling independantly it seems much fairer to wheel about the back of the unit, rather than the front edge if the unit is especially deep.

eg.
BBBBBBBB
DCCCCCC -->

Unit C wants to wheel away from unit B, however unit B is in the way so unit C must move to the following position to be able to wheel, arrows depict the facing of the unit.

BBBBBBBB
________DCCCCCC -->

Now unit C can wheel away from unit B, however if unit C wanted to wheel towards unit B it would not have to move forwards at all.
it can wheel from its initial position.

BBBBBBBB^
________C
________C
________C
________C
________C
________C
________D

Logically, you measure form the outside edge due to the fact that unit C cannot simply wheel around unit B by doing the following

_________^
BBBBBBBB C
__DCCCCCC

As there is no snaking allowed.
Which would be what the unit would be doing if they counted as moving as far as the inside model(in this example)

Havock
05-11-2008, 04:26
The correct term would be harpooning, and would ideally involve a hardass character and cheap light cavalry. Single file, character up front :p

FigureFour
05-11-2008, 13:30
Logically, you measure form the outside edge due to the fact that unit C cannot simply wheel around unit B by doing the following

_________^
BBBBBBBB C
__DCCCCCC

As there is no snaking allowed.
Which would be what the unit would be doing if they counted as moving as far as the inside model(in this example)
No it's not.

If they counted as moving as far as the inside model they'd be doing exactly what you drew in your second diagram, but for less movement.

ZeroTwentythree
06-11-2008, 15:13
Hell, the back model will ALWAYS move more than the front models in any wheel, but NO ONE does it for normal infantry, so why should they for other units?


Because there's a vast difference between the back corner figure in a 5x5 infantry formation moving an extra 3/16" of an inch and some ridiculous gimmick maneuver that lets a figure move many times its movement rate.

It's called Being Reasonable. I know Being Reasonable isn't RAW, but some people play the game for fun rather than an exercise in subverting the rules. :rolleyes:



Below is a unit of skaven taking a regular move (not marching) for 28". Did I get that right? ;)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a195/ZeroTwentythree/personal/WHL5.jpg

SolarHammer
06-11-2008, 21:36
Yeah, that's the functional basis for the "fanatic slingshot."

Throw those words into the search box and see what pops up.

You need to have a corridor with no terrain to do it though.

Hey, I agree it's garbage, but it's how the game is played. It shouldn't even come up under most circumstances though, so don't bother getting worked up about it.

I only brought it up here, because the rat torpedo brings these rules into play in a potentially questionable manner, much like the fanatic slingshot.

Havock
06-11-2008, 22:25
I don't think that's possible anymore: you can't move more than twice your Mv in reforms and such.

SolarHammer
06-11-2008, 22:28
No reforms there, just a "turn."

ZeroTwentythree
07-11-2008, 00:54
I don't think that's possible anymore: you can't move more than twice your Mv in reforms and such.

Look earlier in this thread, I think someone covered that.

As SolarHammer said, it's just turns & wheels.