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View Full Version : 5th Edition, Special Close Combat and Space Marines: The Start of a trend?



DarkstarSabre
09-10-2008, 14:26
So something struck me from the blue after reading the new Space Marine codex a few times.

The options to select special equipment (such as Power Fists, Thunder Hammers and Lightning Claws) are pretty much precluded with 'may exchange weapon x and/or weapon y for'.

Now considering that 5th edition changed it so that bonus attacks from Power Fists can only be gained from having a second Power Fist... (which for the longest time meant that Calgar was the only guy in the game who could do it) it seems that suddenly Space Marines are the only ones in the game who can do this.... all those Codexes that were designed with 5th edition in mind? (From Dark Angels onwards)...not a single peep of an option there.

And this has me concerned. Do you reckon this is the start of a new trend? From this point onwards that wonderful and/or wording is going to apply to the new codexes? Like the SWs or IG who are both rumoured to be soonish? And if so...well, I sort of feel sorry for all those who came before and were designed with 5th edition in mind...as none of them have this sort of option.

Still, it is rather nifty to be able to take dual Thunder Hammer or Power Fist SMs....deliciously expensive Vanguard Veterans....

Hicks
09-10-2008, 14:43
I also think this is the new direction GW is taking, changing the rules to make older codices as bad as possible doesn't bother them in the least.

==Me==
09-10-2008, 14:45
It's an option, but I don't think 1 extra PF attack is worth the loss of a ranged weapon and so many points. I'm a much bigger fan of getting to keep the bolter or getting a combi-weapon.

I like the addition of new options and I hope they can keep it up with IG and onward. With any luck, CSM and DA were GW's attempt to get ready for 5th and now that 5th is out GW can focus on fleshing out the Codices and bringing them in line with C:SM.

madden
09-10-2008, 15:20
I agree with==me== and take a ranged weapon normaly a storm bolter or combi depending on points as the vet/boss won't be wasted in a shooting gallery and/or cc melee.

Rioghan Murchadha
09-10-2008, 15:25
With any luck, CSM and DA were GW's attempt to get ready for 5th and now that 5th is out GW can focus on fleshing out the Codices and bringing them in line with C:SM.

Of course that works out really well for ===Everyone=== that plays CSM or DA doesn't it? :angel:

Bunnahabhain
09-10-2008, 15:28
Well, if it is, don't look to Guard to continue it. Guard have never been a close combat army army, and are unlikely ever to be so. The only respect their characters have ever been any real use in is Leadership. If you want confirmation of theis trend, you'll need to wait for the Space wolves

It has been consistent in background, and in gameplay for a couple of codexs, that Guard troops and tanks do the shooting and the killing, and leaders doing anything in CC are few and far between. If you want CC, then rough riders or Ogryns, troops specialised for it, are who you want.

Unless special close combat weapons are made very cheap indeed, then they won't be used, as now. Power weapons at 5pts each, as currently, are cheap enough to be useful, but power fists simply are not used much, even in 4th, as you would not live to use them.

sorienor
09-10-2008, 15:31
I would love the option of a 2nd power klaw on my warboss.

Would I pay the points? Not very often, but at least it would be nice to have the option.

samiens
09-10-2008, 15:55
It would be nice to have the option but in the great scheme of things it doesn't really matter- I would bet that you won't see many models with twin-power fists...

==Me==
09-10-2008, 18:15
Of course that works out really well for ===Everyone=== that plays CSM or DA doesn't it? :angel:

It works out perfectly, we're all having an awesome time.

theshadowduke
09-10-2008, 19:18
twin power fists mean angry marines are sure to exist in this edition.

DrDoom
09-10-2008, 19:30
Of course that works out really well for ===Everyone=== that plays CSM or DA doesn't it? :angel:

Actually it depends. Getting two powerfists costs more than an Icon/Mark of Khorne then I'm thrilled. I can do what marines can do, just cheaper and stillkeep a ranged weapon.

Go ===Me===.

wingedserpant
09-10-2008, 19:47
But power fists simply are not used much, even in 4th, as you would not live to use them.

Are you kidding?

Treadhead_1st
09-10-2008, 19:56
He's talking in an IG army.

Even with the new IC rules (or, Guard hiding thier boss) the enemy only has to kill 5-6 T3, 5+Sv models to prevent the fist getting a chance to swing, A fairly easy taks to accomplish.

Peril
09-10-2008, 20:26
twin power fists mean angry marines are sure to exist in this edition.

Always Angry! All the Time! :mad:

Melanieshaman
09-10-2008, 22:32
I was curious about this as well, as i was leafing through the new SM 'dex and saw the pic of the guy with two storm hammers... so this IS possible?

Melanie

devik
09-10-2008, 22:35
Unless I'm mistaken, a "pistol" weapon still gives the +1 attack.

It's mixing, say, a power sword with a power fist that wouldn't give +1 attack

Shinzui
09-10-2008, 22:41
I was curious about this as well, as i was leafing through the new SM 'dex and saw the pic of the guy with two storm hammers... so this IS possible?

Captains or Chapter Masters in terminator armour can get two storm hammers

Edit: actually I misread any character can get dual power fists etc as long as they have the weapon to trade. Unlike previous additions there isn't actually a limit on taking an upgrade once. So dual Plasma pistols is possible (if only you could fire two weapons :p)


Unless I'm mistaken, a "pistol" weapon still gives the +1 attack.

Only if you not use a Thunder hammer, power fist or Lightning claws which no longer get +1 attack from a pistol. It was a deliberate nerf in 5th edition because striking at I1 wasn't enough downside to it's upsides for people not to use them instead of power weapons.

devik
09-10-2008, 22:44
Only if you not use a Thunder hammer, power fist or Lightning claws which no longer get +1 attack from a pistol. It was a deliberate nerf in 5th edition because striking at I1 wasn't enough downside to it's upsides for people not to use it instead of power weapons.

News to me.

I knew about the lightning claw, since that's been a long-standing rule, but I didn't realized they'd similarly nerfed power fists.

Super-suck. Lame. Guess it's time to shelve all my sergeants with fists and just go with power weapons instead. :(

Lionsbane
09-10-2008, 23:09
(which for the longest time meant that Calgar was the only guy in the game who could do it) Marneus Calgar and every single Space Wolf model that can take wargear you mean?

I guess if you want to pay the points again to get one more attack, all the power to you. I'll put those points to better use somewhere else myself.

Treadhead_1st
09-10-2008, 23:26
I'm paying the points, not because I really want the extra attack, but as a Salamanders player, I really want a Commander with 2 Thunderhammers, and damn the cost (it'll be pretty efficient I feel [in a command squad with dual-flamers and an Apothecary, so combining Feel no Pain and the Iron Halo along with Artificer Armour for survivability], so can't damn that like I usually do)

Rule of Cool, my friends, Rule of Cool.

Melanieshaman
09-10-2008, 23:33
so i guess i'm brain farting today..cap and chapter masters can take two THs, but can't have a say bolt pistol as well? i guess not... coun't drop the hammer to take a shot then pick it back up?

wait..just ignore me... i am not all togeather with it today.

Melanie

DarkstarSabre
10-10-2008, 17:34
(which for the longest time meant that Calgar was the only guy in the game who could do it) Marneus Calgar and every single Space Wolf model that can take wargear you mean?

Pooches have a dual fist option? Let me see....

Ah. Indeed they do. Forgot about them....see? A benefit of having a 3rd edition codex in a 5th edition game! Don't know what all those DE players are whining about... (I kid, I kid...seriously).



I guess if you want to pay the points again to get one more attack, all the power to you. I'll put those points to better use somewhere else myself.

Treadhead summed it up.

Rule of Cool.

Twin Fists or Hammers just looks damn awesome.

Blackwolf
10-10-2008, 18:14
Pooches have a dual fist option? Let me see....

Ah. Indeed they do. Forgot about them....see? A benefit of having a 3rd edition codex in a 5th edition game! Don't know what all those DE players are whining about... (I kid, I kid...seriously).




Treadhead summed it up.

Rule of Cool.

Twin Fists or Hammers just looks damn awesome.

Just re read your post and you got it right sometimes there is a serious advantage to the old codex. The DE are still one of the most powerful armies in the right hands.

Captain_Rory
10-10-2008, 19:16
Treadhead nailed it. Twin hammers just looks awesome. Why pay so many points for +1A? No good reason realy. Why pay so many points for an awesome looking character? Duh.

Grand Master Raziel
10-10-2008, 22:01
The power fist nerf is one of the things I really don't like about 5th edition. For Space Marines and certain other armies, power fists are absolutely essential to have in some numbers as a contingency against having to take on large numbers of MCs. I know people say "shooting", but you generally can't rely on dealing with them all by shooting. That said, I'd be a little happier with it of Codex: Dark Angels (which I'm going to stick to using for various reasons) gave sergeants the option of taking storm bolters and/or combi-weapons. I figure, if they're not going to get the bonus attack for the pistol, then they might as well have a cooler gun. It's not an option for Dark Angels, though.

Malphax
11-10-2008, 01:06
The nerf was largely because there's not a whole lot of tactics involved in using one 3-4 attack character with S8 or better and 10-20 wounds. "Hidden powerfist" is just a boring, dull tactic. They still have 3 PF attacks on the charge, and they don't have any trouble killing a Carnifex all by themselves, so it's not really that much of a nerf. Powerfists are still EXTREMELY viable on any sergeant. Now, however, they aren't so incredibly powerful that they're essentially the only option a sergeant has.

Ianos
11-10-2008, 01:32
Maybe just maybe other options should become considerable at some point in spacetime.

Warforger
11-10-2008, 02:25
Hmmm if there was anything I wish they would have done is to let Captians/Masters in Terminator armour take a power fist and chainfist, that would have been awsome.

They also did this with shooting, Captians and Masters can take Hellfire rounds (poisened bolters that wound on 2's)

MajorWesJanson
11-10-2008, 02:39
I'd rather two guys with powerfists than one guy with two of them. Pretty much the same price, but more attacks.