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jpf1982
09-10-2008, 16:15
Okay the O&G have an item called triksey trinket. It negates the ward saves of anything in base contact with the bearer of the item. Question is say the character happens charges does 5 wounds. Do the 2 guys out of B2B get ward saves?

I ask because I'm not certain of the overkill thing. The way it's worded yes they do; but still thought I'd ask.

Bac5665
09-10-2008, 17:08
No? its not clear what you're asking.

If your question is whether or not models not in B2B with the TT get a ward save, the answer is yes. I am unaware of any reason that number of wounds or killing blow could affect that answer.

Braad
09-10-2008, 17:22
He means, if a boss charges and is in base to base with 3 models, and does 5 wounds, do the ones that are not in base to base get their wards saves or not.

Well, you could say, how does he do the wounds if he is not in base to base? Or, how long are his arms? I believe someone ones said that a close combat attack can only hurt in base to base, so anything harmed should be assumed to be so.

But it is a little bit of a weird situation.

I don't see what overkill has to do with it? That rule is only used in challenges, so against one model which would be in b2b in that situation.

SolarHammer
09-10-2008, 17:24
I would say no save. In close combat, the character is thought to be killing them as they step forward, so anyone he can kill would count as being in close combat.

I also know a lot of Daemon players who play that way with Miasma of Pestilence.

I do believe it was houseruled the opposite (so only the first 3 would be reduced by Miasma), but it was only a houserule and adds a certain level of complication.
The biggest problem with such a houserule is that it requires you to allocate your attacks (some to those with Miasma, some to those without), and there is no allowance in the rules to allocate attacks to models you are not in contact with.

apbevan
09-10-2008, 17:25
When you kill rank and file more rank and file fill their space. This is how you can kill 5 when only 3 are in bsb contact to begin with.

So yes this is a very tricky question and I don't know the answer. I would like to say no they do not get their ward save but magic items can be fickle sometimes.

jpf1982
09-10-2008, 17:28
I would say no save. In close combat, the character is thought to be killing them as they step forward, so anyone he can kill would count as being in close combat.

This is the kind of answer I was looking for. I worded the original question poorly. My bad. I wanted to know if the character did 6 wounds whether or not the no ward saved only applied to the first 3 guys who were actually in B2B with the character. However as said here and I agree with this; the other are assumed to fill the gap and thus be in B2B during combat. I just wanted clarification on this point. Of course I'm sure when the Goblin Suicide Chariot creams a unit of Bloodletters someone will call foul.

Chicago Slim
09-10-2008, 17:53
I was thinking you're probably considering the TT-bearer on a chariot (since it's darned unlikely that a goblin will get more than 2 wounds, otherwise!) That might be a bit more complicated, since he's not doing the wounds in close combat, specifically, and it's not clear that the chariot is specifically wounding the models in BtB (since its wounds are distributed as shooting, rather than being allocated to target models like close combat attacks are).

It is, for example, explicitly possible to wound a character with a chariot hit, even if that character isn't in BtB with the chariot (specifically, if there are fewer than 5 rank-and-file members of the unit, then hits distributed as shooting are assigned evenly to every member of the unit, with extras being randomized).

Ganymede
09-10-2008, 23:50
Despite such, we still remove casualties due to impact hits in the exact same manner as casualties to other close comabt attacks. We remove those regular infantry models that were actually in the fighting rank, and it'd be sensible to count these casualties as being in base contact for the purposes of the trinket.

Braad
10-10-2008, 06:53
Chariot impact hits are made in close combat (and in the CC phase for that matter). And for them to hurt he has to be in btb.

Envision this (its not rules, but I always like to do this):
A big car comes driving by. Even though it passes at 5 meters, you are still hit. Possible? No. Same goes for impact hits. The models are impacted by the chariot, and for that to work you have to be in btb (or, in real-life terms: in actual contact).

If you ask me, any attack that is made without a range to it, counts as being in base to base with the enemy, otherwise it could never wound anyway.

I think GW once described it as: imagine your character jumping forward through the enemies lines while hacking and slashing.

Chicago Slim
10-10-2008, 15:02
I agree that the common-sense answer is to negate the ward save, on grounds that the chariot hits are distributed as shooting, but are actually the result of physical contact.

I merely observe that, as an actual rules interpretation question, it isn't completely cut-and-dried, and will require some interpretation and judgement.

jpf1982
10-10-2008, 15:33
Well let's hope our local judge see's it my way because the suicide gobbo is now my solution to the demon equation. Most units I see on the table are 15-20 strong he could easilly smash a rank or two without giving them ward saves there not hard to wound as most only have T3. He could even be used to kill greater demons with his impact hits. Sorry mr bloodthirster you don't get your ward save.

DeathlessDraich
10-10-2008, 17:09
Back to the original question:
Base to base contact in Warhammer has a specific meaning.

1) There are only 3 models in btb with the bearer of Tricksy trinket when he strikes. That is how btb contact is explained on pg 32.

2) When Excess casualties are caused, these excess casualties are *not* in btb with the combatant - pg 36.
Of course this does not seem to make sense in real life but it is the stated rule in Warhammer.

3) Therefore magic items which are dependent on the number of models in btb contact (e.g. Tricksy, Destroyer, Noxious vapours, Pestilent Mucus etc) only apply to models in actual contact at the *start of the combatant's turn to strike.*

i.e. only 3 Ward saves are negated in the original scenario - the other 2 get their saves.

Gazak Blacktoof
10-10-2008, 17:21
2) You are still attacking models in BTB even if you cause excess casualties against RnF. The enemy step forward and are cut down (or vice versa) according to the rules on page 36 and on page 32 the models that can attack and can be attacked are those in base contact. Unless you are attacking from a rear rank with spear or pike you are always in BTB with the model you are attacking.

SolarHammer
10-10-2008, 17:24
I don't think he can hurt those he is not in contact with at all then.

If a model attacks an enemy character, or another individual model such as a unit's champion or a monster, then any excess wounds caused by those attacks are not carried over onto ordinary troopers fighting alongside.

As long as the models in BtB are affected by the item, they are individual models, made different to the rest of those in the unit. As such, the character, by attacking them, could not cause excess casualties on the rest of the unit.

It's like a Vampire with Beguile using it on one model, rolling all his attacks against him and then expecting excess casualties. They count as allocated attacks because the character has made the models he is fighting different from the rest. At least the Vampire can allocate some to the rest of the unit because he is in BtB with regular models. Not so with these abilities (Miasma, TT, etc.).

DeathlessDraich
10-10-2008, 17:40
2) You are still attacking models in BTB even if you cause excess casualties against RnF. The enemy step forward and are cut down (or vice versa) according to the rules on page 36 and on page 32 the models that can attack and can be attacked are those in base contact. Unless you are attacking from a rear rank with spear or pike you are always in BTB with the model you are attacking.

No, you've missed an important rule on that page.


I don't think he can hurt those he is not in contact with at all then.
.

He can because the rules state he can. :D

SolarHammer
10-10-2008, 17:42
Did you read what I said about making them necessarily allocated attacks because they are individual models while under the effect of the item?

Gazak Blacktoof
10-10-2008, 18:13
No, you've missed an important rule on that page.

:confused: Care to give me a hint.

Its probably more helpful than pointing and laughing- I know that's what you're doing.:p

Nighthawke
10-10-2008, 18:21
me and my local store have always played it as all 5 attacks ignore the armour saves because once you kill the first three people from the back come and fill in the front rank so you kill another 2 of them

neXus6
10-10-2008, 18:23
Well yes it does seem a bit odd that suddenly the character can kill models without actually touching them.

For sake of simplicity at the very least I would play it that all of them are negated.
It's also for the sake of common sense, but we all know that has no place in rules discussions. ;)
:p

Nighthawke
10-10-2008, 18:27
lol true,id put it this way, if you wish to attack a character but you are not in base contact you cant attack it
so vice versa which means all your attacks are on models in base contact

DeathlessDraich
10-10-2008, 19:15
Did you read what I said about making them necessarily allocated attacks because they are individual models while under the effect of the item?

Apologies, I didn't realise your first statement was not independent of the rest of your post which was referring to specifically allocated attacks.

Allocating attacks is not related to the rule I have in mind though and you are obviously discussing a different issue from mine.

Gazak: The rule is pg 36:

" ... a model causes more casualties *than* there are *enemy models in base contact with it.*"

This clearly differentiates models in base contact and models that qualify as excess casualties.

The excess casualties are still caused but these excess casualties are "not in base contact".

The rules then mention "stepping forward" etc but at no point do these contradict the first statement of Excess casualties.

SolarHammer
10-10-2008, 19:26
I am saying that the item makes the models he is in base contact with unique, at least compared to regular rank and file. Before the TT got there they were regular rank and file, after it gets there they are regular rank and file without a Ward Save. As such, any attacks he makes against them would count as allocated attacks, and not carry over onto the rank and file troopers not affected by the item.

As he is not in contact with any regular rank and file models (he is only in contact with those lacking a ward save), he is unable to allocate any attacks onto regular rank and file troopers.

As such, he can only kill the 3 or 4 models he is in contact with at the time he made his attacks.

As an example, imagine that only 2 out of 3 models he was in contact with were effected.

Now imagine the character says "I am making my attacks against these 2 over here that are affected" and then expected the extra wounds to carry over to other models. That would be right out.

This circumstance is exactly the same, except the character has no option but to allocate his attacks onto those models affected.

Nighthawke
10-10-2008, 19:32
no offence but why do people always try to complicate the rules?

Avian
10-10-2008, 19:41
I am saying that the item makes the models he is in base contact with unique,...
You are imagining rules that don't exist.

SolarHammer
10-10-2008, 19:44
So you are saying that if a Vampire with Beguile charged the flank of a unit of Knights, such that he was only in contact with a single rank and file model and used Beguile on the model, he could re-roll to wound with all his attacks and the extra damage would carry over to the rest of the unit?

Because that situation is EXACTLY parallel with what we are discussing here.

Gazak Blacktoof
10-10-2008, 19:50
Gazak: The rule is pg 36:

" ... a model causes more casualties *than* there are *enemy models in base contact with it.*"

This clearly differentiates models in base contact and models that qualify as excess casualties.

The excess casualties are still caused but these excess casualties are "not in base contact".

The rules then mention "stepping forward" etc but at no point do these contradict the first statement of Excess casualties.



The excess casualties rules and removing from the rear ranks are a short cut to avoid unnecessary shuffling of models. If it makes you feel happier remove the models that are killed and have models move into the gap then remove them. The rules explain what is happening. "Casualties fall amongst the rank that is fighting" who will be in BTB with the model attacking them unless you're attacking with a fight in ranks weapon.


I agree with Nighthawke, you're making this needlessly complex.

Chicago Slim
10-10-2008, 20:23
if you wish to attack a character but you are not in base contact you cant attack it
so vice versa which means all your attacks are on models in base contact

Notably, the specific case that the original poster is asking about does NOT follow this rule: chariot impact hits CAN AND ARE in some limited cases distributed to character models with whom the chariot is not in base-to-base contact.

Which, again, is just to suggest that the assumptions under which the above judgement were made don't necessarily apply to the specific case being considered here (a chariot ridden by a character with the Triksey Trinket, and the Impact Hits thereof).

Nighthawke
10-10-2008, 20:38
sorry i only read his first post in which there is no mention of a chariot
im still going with the simple answear that all the attacks allow no ward saves as you are in base contact with the character,
i understand a problem with impact hits but thats about it and that would be near impossible to sort out

Chicago Slim
11-10-2008, 00:25
Yeah, his original post tipped me off a bit, because of the high number of hits cited (it'd have to be a Goblin Warboss, with his 4 base attacks, plus at least one extra attack from a magic weapon or enchanted item, or both, and then assuming that EVERY attack hits....)

About 10 messages in, I asked if he was talking about a chariot, and he confirmed...

DeathlessDraich
11-10-2008, 11:43
The excess casualties rules and removing from the rear ranks are a short cut to avoid unnecessary shuffling of models. If it makes you feel happier remove the models that are killed and have models move into the gap then remove them. The rules explain what is happening. "Casualties fall amongst the rank that is fighting" who will be in BTB with the model attacking them unless you're attacking with a fight in ranks weapon.


I agree with Nighthawke, you're making this needlessly complex.

1) Tricksy Trinket works against models in "base contact"

2) For Excess casualties, the question is - Are excess casualties (and hence excess wounds before saves) deemed to be in base contact?

**3) The answer is provided by the rules. They are not in btb contact:
pg 36 Excess casualties = "a model causes more casualties *than there are enemy models in base contact with it*".

Reiterating - "than there are enemy models in base contact with it"

Sorry but I think this is quite straight forward.



Notably, the specific case that the original poster is asking about does NOT follow this rule: chariot impact hits CAN AND ARE in some limited cases distributed to character models with whom the chariot is not in base-to-base contact.

1) Yes, chariot hits are distributed as shooting.

2) Confirming your statement:
Since the chariot or character model is not in btb with the (extra)wounds/casualties, these 'extra' wounds are not affected by Tricksy Trinket.


Which, again, is just to suggest that the assumptions under which the above judgement were made don't necessarily apply to the specific case being considered here (a chariot ridden by a character with the Triksey Trinket, and the Impact Hits thereof).

Yes, I agree, the same principle applies to all cases.

The sole criterion to determine whether a model is affected by Tricksy is whether it is in btb contact.

BtB does not include enemy models not in btb when the combatant attacks i.e. it excludes all excess wounds/casualties the combatant may cause. - as shown in (3) above.

Bob the Butcher
11-10-2008, 18:25
I would say all casualties inflicted by the Character with the no Ward Save item would not get their Ward Saves.

This is because the Character is in HTH with the opposing unit and anyone wounded would also be in base contact when he wounds them. As has been mentioned he kills the 3 in base contact and more rank & file step up to be killed.

Ganymede
11-10-2008, 21:07
The sole criterion to determine whether a model is affected by Tricksy is whether it is in btb contact.

BtB does not include enemy models not in btb when the combatant attacks i.e. it excludes all excess wounds/casualties the combatant may cause. - as shown in (3) above.

This brings up an interesting quandary though. By the time we've found out that we've done more wounds than models in base contact, we're already well past the point of making ward saves.

Bob the Butcher
12-10-2008, 00:21
The problem arises if the character inflicted 5 wounds on Rank & File with only 3 in base contact.

How did the character wound the other 2? Obviously they were also in HtH with the character and therefore base contact,so no Ward Save.

Now that's what I call Tricksy my precccioous!!!

SolarHammer
12-10-2008, 01:04
This brings up an interesting quandary though. By the time we've found out that we've done more wounds than models in base contact, we're already well past the point of making ward saves.

Which is why they would need to be allocated in the first place, which can't be done, so he can only kill those initially in contact. But apparently that's imagining rules... :rolleyes:

Ganymede
12-10-2008, 01:24
Which is why they would need to be allocated in the first place, which can't be done, so he can only kill those initially in contact. But apparently that's imagining rules... :rolleyes:

Personally, I'm imagining a situation in which I could tell my opponent (the owner of a a goblin chariot ridden by a trinket toting boss) that he can never do more than four wounds with his Trinket enhanced attacks, and not burst out laughing afterwards.

SolarHammer
12-10-2008, 04:12
Ah yes. Could be important on foot, on the edges of units or even in a Chariot when making a multiple charge so he is forced to clip and things like that though. But good point.

Condottiere
12-10-2008, 04:57
How does this work in conjunction with a chariot, again?

DeathlessDraich
12-10-2008, 16:04
This brings up an interesting quandary though. By the time we've found out that we've done more wounds than models in base contact, we're already well past the point of making ward saves.

Whether there are extra wounds/casualties or not, the number of enemy models in btb is unaffected.

See **


The problem arises if the character inflicted 5 wounds on Rank & File with only 3 in base contact.

How did the character wound the other 2? Obviously they were also in HtH with the character and therefore base contact,so no Ward Save.

Now that's what I call Tricksy my precccioous!!!

Only 3 are in base contact. The other 2 are not whether they are slain or not.
pg 36:

See **



Which is why they would need to be allocated in the first place, which can't be done, so he can only kill those initially in contact. But apparently that's imagining rules... :rolleyes:

No allocation is needed.

The sole question is how many models are in btb contact and the answer is 3 regardless of extra wounds.
See **


** " ... a model causes more casualties *than* there are *enemy models in base contact with it.*"

SolarHammer
12-10-2008, 20:31
But how do you cause casualties on the other two without allocating attacks to them? At the time you would be rolling ward saves no casualties have been inflicted. Only rolls to hit and to wound.

There's nothing in the rules about rolling to hit and to wound against models you are not in BtB with, and there is nothing in the rules about models that you haven't rolled to hit and to wound against to make ward saves while the models you did roll to hit and to wound against don't have a ward save.

Again, please go back to my Vampire with Beguile example.

He is only in contact with a single cav model on the flank. He beguiles that model and can re-roll to hit and to wound against him (a special bonus against that model only), would you allow him to roll to hit and wound against that model and then apply any casualties to the rest of the unit? No. They would have to count as allocated attacks because something the Vampire did made that model unique when compared to the rest of the unit.

Miasma of Pestilence is an even better fit because it also affects all models in BtB. Would you let a herald with Miasma, who is in contact with a single knight roll to hit and to wound against that knight, and then kill up to 3 of them after rolling to hit against WS1 and rolling to wound against T1? How about letting his Palanquin kill up to 6? I should hope not.

Likewise for a Goblin with TT on the flank of a unit of Fleshhounds. The model he is in contact with has no ward save, all the rest do. That model is now unique when compared to the rest of the unit. Any attacks he makes against that model will benefit from no ward save, but can not carry on to the rest of the unit.

Every example with the TT is like that, because it affects every model he is in BTB with.

BEEGfrog
12-10-2008, 22:17
The relevant rule on this is cited earlier in this post i.e. pg 36. It is relatively clear from the context that the process of resolving the wounds has already happened with the ward tests not applied because the fighting is resolved against the figures in BTB. 5 valid wounds have been scored, pg36 tells you that this means 5 models have to be removed because 2 of the rear ranks moved forward and got offed too.

All the extra complications like allocating and allowing extra ward saves are spurious invented rules. The rules are clear unallocated hits produced wounds that move on to the next figure once the first is dead. Another example is a musician or standard bearer, these never die unless the rest of the unit has died, would the rear ranks get ward saves because you were fighting the command element?

SolarHammer
12-10-2008, 22:20
So you would let a Nurgle character with Miasma to kill all those knights by rolling to hit and wound on WS1 and T1?

You'd let the Vampire player kill all those knights by re-rolling his to-wound roll against that single model?

I think that's frankly stupid.

The item makes the models in question unique. When attacking unique models you must make allocated attacks.

Gazak Blacktoof
12-10-2008, 23:11
The vampire power is targetted to a specific model.

The nurgle power does indeed reduce the stats of models in BTB. If attacking RnF you could attack them "all" taking into account the effects of miasma.

I think both of these have been discussed in previous threads.

Shamfrit
13-10-2008, 00:30
Which is why they would need to be allocated in the first place, which can't be done, so he can only kill those initially in contact. But apparently that's imagining rules...

Allocating attacks is optional, and can be directed at the unit you're fighting, in which case wounds are calculated as per shooting. Therefore, those excess wounds are caused on the unit, and removed from the combat - so they'd negate ward saves that pertain as a generic attribute to the whole unit.

There is no circumstance I can think of that would cause conflict here; if there's a character in the front row with a 4+ ward save, and the unit has 5+ saves, say, for example, a Daemonic Herald of some description, you can either allocate wounds and attacks at the unit, thus your wounds will kill Daemonettes (random example) and negate their 5+ ward save.

No conflict. (Since the Daemonettes are in base contact. And you have allocated attacks at the unit.)

You could allocate 2 attacks at the herald (in base contact) and the rest at the unit. The same would apply.

By your logic, a Bloodthirster rolling 14 on his Dark Insanity roll could onlyl EVER kill one Knight on a one rank flank charge -

SolarHammer
13-10-2008, 01:43
No, a Bloodthirster with Dark Insanity and some item that made the knight he was fighting different to all the other knights in the unit could only ever kill one knight.

gortexgunnerson
13-10-2008, 10:49
I am on the side of that says the wounds should all be taken with no ward save! I think the allocation of wounds and hence limiting the number of kills is just looking for loop holes, if you really must push the RAW the only real arguement is 5 wounds would cause 4 kills and 1 with a save (assuming in contact with 4 as on chariot).

I think this example raises another issue, what about other hits. As chariots often hunt in pair, what would be the outcome of 2 chariots charging. The non TT declares first followed by TT chariot. So the chariot is attacking the unit which post movement 3/4 of the front rank have no ward save due to TT. How would you resolve the non magical impact hits. As the TT affect BTB rather then attacked models this could be a viable anti daemon tactic.

Also Solarhammer I do not think their is justification for saying the affected models are no longer RnF or else they would surely instantiously become a different unit as in the case when a tomb prince has his chariot destroyed he is kicked out the unit. If they become different to the unit they would have top leave as the unit does not have the mixed unit rules. I think they are RnF that are affected as opposed to no longer rank and file. And attacks on RnF carry over. Or else all items such as -1 to hit the charcter etc would mean that the characters would be limited to only killing RnF in BTB as they would be affected by his item and hence different from the unit.

SolarHammer
13-10-2008, 18:04
No, they are rank and file, they are just unique rank and file. The prescription for allocated attacks is not that you are attacking "non-rank and file" models but "unique" models.

I sincerely feel that Daemonettes without a ward save are unique when compared to regular rank and file Daemonettes, just like Daemonettes with WS1 and T1 are unique when compared to regular Daemonettes.

Shamfrit
13-10-2008, 18:47
WS1 Daemonette
WS1 Daemonette <-base touching-> Herald of Nurgle
WS1 Daemonette

---

Herald of Nurgle kills Daemonettes, and inflicts an additional wound. What happens to this wound? Since anything outside of those three Daemonettes was resolved at Ws1! What happens is an additional wound is caused, no questions asked, because this is attacking the unit - it is a loophole, it is a freak occurance of nature, but it is the rules as they are written. You could consider it as a 4th daemonette moving into base contact and taking a hit, since this is not a static environment, models are all moving as one, and fighting in a dynamic combat.

Ganymede
14-10-2008, 08:34
No, they are rank and file, they are just unique rank and file. The prescription for allocated attacks is not that you are attacking "non-rank and file" models but "unique" models.

Close, but not quite.

Take a look at page 76.

"If a model attacks an enemy character, or another individual model such as a unit's champion or a monster, then any excess wounds caused by those attacks are not carried over onto ordinary troopers fighting alongside. The attacker has chosen to concentrate his attacks on a single special foe and any wounds left over are wasted and do not count towards the result of the combat."

The instances when attacks are allocated against single models (I want to kill that particular guy) are when excess wounds are wasted. Generally, attacks are only wasted when they are directed at a particular model, not a cluster of models.

Avian
14-10-2008, 08:54
I sincerely feel that Daemonettes without a ward save are unique when compared to regular rank and file Daemonettes, just like Daemonettes with WS1 and T1 are unique when compared to regular Daemonettes.
You may feel that way, but it is still not supported by the rules. :p

Bob the Butcher
21-10-2008, 21:57
I agree with Beegfrog.

The KISS principle applies here.