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SPYDER68
09-10-2008, 17:20
I used to post on portent alot, then a few months ago got back into 40k, and ive noticed one thing about these forums that is different.

It seems people cannot have a discussion or a disagreement on rules without somone getting pissy about it on here, has the level of 40k players really slumped that low ?



At least there are a few left that can have a good discussion.

Unclejo
09-10-2008, 17:23
To paraphrase a quote;

It is better to flame a thousand forum posters than have one form an opinion that contradicts your own.

SPYDER68
09-10-2008, 17:25
Im just pointing out the obvious :P, every discussion you read on here, at least *one* person comes in being an ass about it. Never said everyone

x-esiv-4c
09-10-2008, 17:27
I would love it if this thread remained open for rational discussion but one of two things will happen.

1). tardseers will spam random nonsense about people hating SM.
2). Mods will lock it.

:(

Democratus
09-10-2008, 17:27
That's just par for the course on the internet. Annonymity makes such behavior much more likely.

Victomorga
09-10-2008, 17:33
Im just pointing out the obvious :P, every discussion you read on here, at least *one* person comes in being an ass about it. Never said everyone

yeah, that about sums it up.

you've got to love people who go on and on about how stupid a thread is, and then throw in their two cents at the end. "this isn't worth talking about, and you're stupid for even bringing it up, but here's what I think about it."

for whatever reason, the general attitude seems to be "here's what I think. if you disagree you are not just wrong, you're stupid."

this is the only 40k etc. site I post on, so I just assumed the tone here was indicative of all such websites. is that not the case?

IJW
09-10-2008, 17:33
Im just pointing out the obvious :P, every discussion you read on here, at least *one* person comes in being an ass about it. Never said everyone
It has to be said that there's a certain amount of the pot calling the kettle black going on here. ;)

Your thread about deepstriking Soulgrinders (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2996784) got you a series of reasoned, calm responses, until you started arguing with everyone...

That said, the longer threads here do tend to go downhill quite fast. :(

Overt_Spy
09-10-2008, 17:36
That's just par for the course on the internet. Annonymity makes such behavior much more likely.

QFT. ... you ass. :p

Being an internet tough guy is fun, makes me feel bigger since I can't even intimidate a squirrel in real life... :cries:

Captain Micha
09-10-2008, 17:38
I used to post on portent alot, then a few months ago got back into 40k, and ive noticed one thing about these forums that is different.

It seems people cannot have a discussion or a disagreement on rules without somone getting pissy about it on here, has the level of 40k players really slumped that low ?



At least there are a few left that can have a good discussion.

I thought it was always like this. (at least has been since I joined. Which was post destruction of Gw's forums)

heck I thought that was all forums on the internet.

AngryAngel
09-10-2008, 17:40
It's really just the nature of the beast on the internet forums. It's like rambo says, to survive war you gotta become war. To post on these forums, you have to almost become the thing you hate. As people will never accept your point of view. I could count on one hand the number of times I've been able to come to a peacefull end to a disciussion.

It has happend, but people have to either want to A) Agree they were wrong, or B) admit you both have valid points and it comes down to opinion. Which as you can imagine happens very little as to admit your wrong or someone else may also be right would be someone isn't flawless.

That said, some people just live to rile up other people and spread hate ( trolls). Some people as well just go around acting like rude *!*!*! because they can. As you don't have to pay for your words over the net you see alot of very in your face responses from people who probably wouldn't dare say it to your face.

Hence why you see so much more army hate on here then you would in say your own store or local game group.

Nostro
09-10-2008, 17:43
I was about to compliment your investigation skills IJW, but you taking part to the (relevent) linked discussion made it easier though. ;)

It's like everyday life here, some people just ask a question to have their views confrimed, not to get a different answer. Anonymity just makes it easier.

That said, I find that here the level is pretty high. Just learn to stay away from the weekly "OMG my 4rmy got nerfed" or "SMs are t3h ch33se" threads and you avoid the majority of the hassle.

Culven
09-10-2008, 18:29
this is the only 40k etc. site I post on, so I just assumed the tone here was indicative of all such websites. is that not the case?
Definitely not. I post on Warseer and Age of Strife. At one point we compared the sites to a tube station and a pub, respectively. I think the issue with Warseer is simply due to the higher volume of traffic. More people means more chance of misunderstandings or intentional comments leading to posters becomming upset. It also means that statistically, there will be more trolls about.

That said, I find that here the level is pretty high. Just learn to stay away from the weekly "OMG my 4rmy got nerfed" or "SMs are t3h ch33se" threads and you avoid the majority of the hassle.
I completely agree. I believe that each user has a responsibility to the forum community to follow the posting guidelines, self-police one's own posts and report inflammatory threads, take a step back as needed to avoid posting in anger, and just avoid posting in threads which are going downhill. If we can all learn to control ourselves a bit and not be drawn into emotionally charged discussions, we can keep the forums happy and healthy.

Inq. Veltane
09-10-2008, 18:38
I've also noticed that things seem to have gone down hill quite a lot since when I used to frequent this place (and prior to that, Portent). At the risk of being controversial I find a lot of the newer members seem to lack the...quality of some of the older ones and I'm curious about whether there has been a shift in the Demographics of Warseer to include a lot more 'younger' gamers who are used to other forums and act in the same manner that they do there.

I miss the old days... which must mean I'm now a grumpy old man...

Captain Micha
09-10-2008, 18:59
You can blame Gw for that you know. If they didn't "dumb down the game" with 4e codexes (which allegedly are the version 5 codexes that happen to be compatible with the older rules) the kids wouldn't be playing! And then they wouldn't come to forums! (sarcasm off)

No, you're not grumpy yet. Grumpy is when you start getting the self superior attitude goin *nod* "I'm right because I've been here longer!" you know... that attitude.

Nah, if anything I've seen less hate threads since I've been pokin my head in around here again. Part of that might have to do with that the trolls are too busy trying to attack the Fourth Edition D&d forums but it's hard to say. *L*

fluffystuff
09-10-2008, 19:12
Personally I've found Warseer to be one of the politest and friendliest forums on the net. As others have said, sometimes you just have to step back and ignore the flaming trolls.
I also find that when driving in real life, some people can get really abusive, even when they are in the wrong. Yet if/when you confront them face-to-face they are totally different/apologetic. It's as if they're in their own little selfish bubble and don't care about anyone but themselves.


YAY....go go keyboard warrior:D

Lord Malorne
09-10-2008, 19:16
I have seen a shift from when I started to now, it was alot more trolly (:eyebrows:) then, for awhile now its been great but more recently here and there I see newer members...doing...things....they....shouldn't!

But that is not to say all new members are like this...just a minority...

(This is going to turn into a grumble thread I just know it :p)

Frostden
09-10-2008, 21:08
No one ever convinces anyone of anything on an internet forum. Someone makes a point, someone counterpoints. This goes on for three pages, becoming progressively less civil. At the point where the whole argument hinges on one factor, someone brings in an obscure, possibly fluff based if it's a rules argument or rules based if it's a fluff argument, precedent from an unrelated source. Now it's this tangental thing that has to be argued.
A few days later the thread is 10 pages long with people furiously rebuffing each others rebuffal posts large pathetic quote box for large pathetic quote box.
I think people will keep on arguing until their opponent says "You've convinced me, you win." The majority of people have, for whatever dumbfounding reason, got too much of their self esteem tied up in these arguments to ever concede.
Moral of the story: If you get into an internet argument, concede at page 3. At that point winning means nothing, losing means nothing, and you're not achieving anything by continueing. However, you might make someone who doesn't have much good going on for them right now a little less miserable for a moment.
Before the next argument.

Bookwrak
09-10-2008, 21:24
It's a simple signal/noise ratio. The more people you get, the less 'content' that comes through, and the more noise. Smaller forums tend to be more tightly knit community-wise because they're small enough that posters get a feel for each other, and new members either fit themselves into the existing atmosphere, or drift away.

With its number of members, Warseer is just like any other large group of people gathered together, which gives it a much different atmosphere and community participation than when it was small.

pox
09-10-2008, 21:43
I completely agree. I believe that each user has a responsibility to the forum community to follow the posting guidelines, self-police one's own posts and report inflammatory threads, take a step back as needed to avoid posting in anger, and just avoid posting in threads which are going downhill. If we can all learn to control ourselves a bit and not be drawn into emotionally charged discussions, we can keep the forums happy and healthy.

oddly enough, I disagree. I find that whatever-goes forums tend to be more civil, not less. the somethingawful thread for warhammer is a lot smoother then most of warseer, along with the SA spin-off site eternity of war. I don't really discuss rules on warseer anymore, I just read the rumors and post in the modeling, painting and terrain sections.
rules questions tend to go a lot smoother when the majority of the posters can tell you what they think without a mod stepping in and saying "be nice." because of this, I take arguments to those sights, rather than bring them here nowadays.

I view it as sort of the intellectual version of "an armed society is a polite society." I would rather cross words with a fellow poster than have to go to a mod to make them behave themselves. sometimes its better to type out what you think while still angry.

Templar Ben
09-10-2008, 21:53
I generally don't post much in rules anymore for a different reason.

I think a lot of it comes from the shear number of posters. Culven spoke about Age of Strife and over there we all pretty much know each other. Many of us have not physically met (although there was a recent forum trip to Warhammer World) but since it is such a small group you get to know people's personality. That family atmosphere means you can do stuff and it is taken in the best light.

For example I am an old Navy man. There is another poster that is currently in the Royal Army. We banter quite a bit about how our respective services are doing the "real work" in language that could sometimes be considered trolling. It isn't because we are like two mates having a go over a pint.

This doesn't have that same attitude because we don't know each other (well some of us do) and so posters tend to get defensive when a stranger says something that one doesn't agree with. It is the nature of the beast but you see it less in the less active sections which sort of reinforces that view.

kadun
09-10-2008, 22:59
Warseer is a good forum for fluff, rumors, and casual gaming. It is not a good forum for competitive gaming or rules debates despite what some may tell you.

The_Outsider
10-10-2008, 00:08
Warseer is mostly populated by people who cannot grasp the concept of nostalgia and assume 2nd ed is as awesome as it was when they were 12.

Then you have the people who will flatout argue to the death that their forces was gimped in the new codex and will not "counts-as" therefore GW has done something that is one step short of eating their dog.

This is in addition to the usual idiocy/trolls/flamers who don't grasp the concept of opinions that dwell in any forum.

Lisiecki
10-10-2008, 02:50
Ya honestly, about a year ago, we all gave up actually PLAYING warhammer.
Now we just argue, and if we run in to each other when buying models at a hobby store, knifefight



I used to post on portent alot, then a few months ago got back into 40k, and ive noticed one thing about these forums that is different.

It seems people cannot have a discussion or a disagreement on rules without somone getting pissy about it on here, has the level of 40k players really slumped that low ?



At least there are a few left that can have a good discussion.

Octavius_Maximus
10-10-2008, 03:11
I used to post on portent alot, then a few months ago got back into 40K, and ive noticed one thing about these forums that is different.

It seems people cannot have a discussion or a disagreement on rules without somone getting pissy about it on here, has the level of 40K players really slumped that low ?

At least there are a few left that can have a good discussion.

So what are you trying to tell us?

You started a Discussion thread to tell us all that we are doing it wrong?

Lets consider something like the Imperial Guard Tactica Thread (11,156 posts so far!) which has never really been trolled before.

What other Forums (except perhaps Bolter and Chainsword, a supremely polite and informative forum) can claim threads of this size spam free?

Da Boyzz
10-10-2008, 03:14
Wierd thread.

Of course you are going to get trollers and people not wanting their opinion flamed.

It is the same with every social group or a random group of people, you will always have one who thinks their opinion is right, its not just on here. The world is not full of subjective people.

but yeah.. How gay are SM.

Lord Lucifer
10-10-2008, 03:35
Warseer is mostly populated by people who cannot grasp the concept of nostalgia and assume 2nd ed is as awesome as it was when they were 12.
There are those who CAN grasp the concept of nostalgia, who were not 12 when they played 2nd edition, and still consider it a very enjoyable game.
They now play Necromunda :D


So what are you trying to tell us?

You started a Discussion thread to tell us all that we are doing it wrong?

I don't believe that's the case. He's commenting on what he perceives as a difference in tone between the forum in its' last incarnation when he was here, and as it is now.
And being familiar with the forum for entirely too long to be healthy (:p), I can see what he's getting at.
The successive 'death's of various wargaming forums flooded Warseer with huge groups of new members for a period, and this really changed the group dynamic and obliterated the warm fuzzy community spirit it had when new members were gradually introduced instead of coming in waves.
It's far less inclusive now.
Just my observation, and nothing in that was deliberate, but that's pretty much the way of it.

The group dynamics were upset, and it's less friendly and familiar because of it.

Chez
-Luci :)

EVIL INC
10-10-2008, 04:16
I used to post on portent alot, then a few months ago got back into 40k, and ive noticed one thing about these forums that is different.

It seems people cannot have a discussion or a disagreement on rules without somone getting pissy about it on here, has the level of 40k players really slumped that low ?



At least there are a few left that can have a good discussion.
We had the same problem on Portent. Luckily, there are a few of us who have maintained the ability to have discussions and differences of opinion without getting bent out of shapr. The rest... we can only hope they grow out of it.

Khornies & milk
10-10-2008, 04:26
Just pick your Threads wisely and let the Kiddies and the Egomaniacs do their thing, and try not to get emotional about things or sink to their level.

usually works for me.

Octavius_Maximus
10-10-2008, 04:47
I don't believe that's the case. He's commenting on what he perceives as a difference in tone between the forum in its' last incarnation when he was here, and as it is now.
And being familiar with the forum for entirely too long to be healthy (), I can see what he's getting at.
The successive 'death's of various wargaming forums flooded Warseer with huge groups of new members for a period, and this really changed the group dynamic and obliterated the warm fuzzy community spirit it had when new members were gradually introduced instead of coming in waves.
It's far less inclusive now.
Just my observation, and nothing in that was deliberate, but that's pretty much the way of it.

The group dynamics were upset, and it's less friendly and familiar because of it.

Ive been watching this forum since around 2003 and posting through a friends account occasionally, so yeah, the whole health factor has gotten me too.

(Now the real problem is that i am a compulsive dicehammerer at home. I write rules and such and dicehammer them a few times to see the results. The problem is ive left my dice at a friends place...oh god...im really missing them! Im almost suffering withdrawel symptoms!)

jibbajabbawocky
10-10-2008, 05:02
I used to post on portent alot, then a few months ago got back into 40k, and ive noticed one thing about these forums that is different.

It seems people cannot have a discussion or a disagreement on rules without somone getting pissy about it on here, has the level of 40k players really slumped that low ?

Was it ever even at a higher mark?
Hobby Forums in general tend to start at the bottom and work their way down from there. :)

Although, I will say that Warseer, for all of it's uter nonsense and rampant fanboi-ism, is orders of magnitude better than the old GW forums.

pox
10-10-2008, 05:24
Lets consider something like the Imperial Guard Tactica Thread (11,156 posts so far!) which has never really been trolled before.

What other Forums (except perhaps Bolter and Chainsword, a supremely polite and informative forum) can claim threads of this size spam free?

the "who loves orks" thread. pretty much has kept me coming back to this board time and time again. no flames, no trolls, candid discussion about all things orky.

Octavius_Maximus
10-10-2008, 05:42
the "who loves orks" thread. pretty much has kept me coming back to this board time and time again. no flames, no trolls, candid discussion about all things orky.

(psst....i said 'forums' not 'threads' :P)

Warforger
10-10-2008, 05:50
The first forum I was ever on (and still gong to) has a very hybrid way of dealing with the problems every other forum does, instead of the same old generic rules "no reviving threads, no spamming, no trolling, do this and I will ban you" kinda things, they just edit/delete posts and lock (or delelte if its very severe) threads. They hardly ever have any bans (it has to be a very bad person, the most recent one was when a person was posting attacks and taking 40k too seroiusly in the fluff section) and much less suspensions (the only one being spamming). If you revive a thread no one cares as long as you contributed to it and the author is ok with it, if you go off-topic as long as the author doesen't mind you can go off-topic as much as you want, if you break the rules, the mods (and vets) will ask you politly to read them again, if you troll they will ask politly for you to start, if you continue they will delete posts, lock threads and flame you (trust me if you are the person trolling and you read there flame posts, you will be crying, they are very good at it).

I like that, no one (who is not obscene) is banned and you maintain a good community, if you wanna see the site
http://www.warhammer40k.com/40k/index.php?sid=09cf4f151e738b43f05ccc8e1b443a31

Please don't take it as an advertisment, just an example of a community unlike this one, maybe you can use there rules instead of the smae old generic ones.

Anyway, I've only been here for about a month and I have seen some dumb troll posts, but overrall I like this community.

Used Car Salesman
10-10-2008, 06:04
When I ran a forum, we did things pretty much like you described except maybe a bit harsher. When someone would refuse to follow the rules the entire moderating staff as well as some of the senior members would just gang up on that person. For the most part it worked with very few bannings happening except for some extreme cases.
I really don't have a problem with anything here and I like it here very much.

EmperorEternalXIX
10-10-2008, 06:10
Despite the occasional issue, I find Warseer to be informative and helpful on all counts, and honestly it is one of the most polite forums I have been a part of. That is of course relative, but I have never seen anything degenerate to the point of being a complete argument and no longer bearing any resemblance to a conversation.

I always thought the "no reviving old threads" thing was kind of stupid, especially when coupled with "Always use the search function first." Suppose I find a two month old topic and need to ask the participants to elaborate on its findings?

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
10-10-2008, 06:27
I think this is a great community. I don't post all that often, mostly because I'm not a Warhammer font of knowledge. It is funny, however, to watch the same kinds of threads open up again month after month as new people discover Warhammer and this site. Then I can remember back when I started and people kept typing, "Oh no, not this thread again." I didn't understand until now. I only wish I was closer to England, because it certainly seems like a good deal of Warseer members live there and I'd love to go down to Warhammer World and hang out and chat at Bugmans, even if I don't drink. Heck, maybe I'd give it a go just for atmospheres sake.

RexTalon
10-10-2008, 07:45
Geeze, this thread again?!!??!?!

It must be that time of the month. ;)

starlight
10-10-2008, 07:59
I used to post on portent alot, then a few months ago got back into 40k, and ive noticed one thing about these forums that is different.

It seems people cannot have a discussion or a disagreement on rules without somone getting pissy about it on here, has the level of 40k players really slumped that low ?



At least there are a few left that can have a good discussion.


Bear in mind that when Portent was around, we had the GW Forums...now a great number of those people are here...for good or ill. As well, whenever one of the other Forums dies, we get a fair number of their members...

So *yes* Warseer is a bit different than Portent was, but that's simply how it is when you're the biggest. More chaff to sort through, but overall, more wheat as well. :)