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Maidel
09-10-2008, 19:33
1000?

I think not.


We all know that chapters like the Space wolves and Black templars have anything from 1000-10000 marines, so im not thinking about them.

Im talking, Smurf, totally by the book, codex marines.

The new Marine codex has the answer. Assume every squad is at full strength and the scout company is full as well (ill show later on this doesnt matter.)

10 companies, 100 marines in each = 1000. (it does list that there are only 97 marines in the first company at present - so 997 to be exact)

Page 17 of the codex then goes on to list:

Chapter Master
Chief Librarian
Master of the Forge
Chief Apothecary
Master of sanctity
10 Captains
27 Librarians
27 Techmarines
27 Honour Guard (WTF is up with the number 27...)
12 Apothecaries
25 Dreadnoughts (do they count? not sure, they WERE marines)
+ And un mentioned number of chaplains

So that makes 1105 + 25 'dead' marines' + chaplains.

So even if there wasnt a single scout there would STILL be more than 1000 marines in a chapter.



And, for more proof, GW appear to have offically recognised this and have removed the number 1000 from the codex. (its mentioned on page 7 and it says often they EXCEED 1000 battle brothers.)

Lars Porsenna
09-10-2008, 19:46
Don't forget vehicle crews too; if every squad in every company has a rhino +1 for the Co Command squad, that's another 110 marines right there (unless they're crewed with 2 marines -- don't have the Codex in front of me or even if its mentioned). Factor in all the Predators, Whirlwinds, LR'sm etc. and you're probably pushing 1300 in a "Codex" chapter...

Damon.

Lord Malorne
09-10-2008, 19:50
More like how many times has this been brought up?

Please us the search function the site so kindly provides, and yes there is more than a thousand...it has never been anywhere that it is a thousand...why, because of the scout company and auxilia, tech support and hundreds of other titles and jobs...it is roughly a thousand marines...not roughly a thousand and fourty nine!

Helveticus
09-10-2008, 19:55
Actuall in past codexes it was mentioned the tactical marines from reserve companies form out tank crews, while the assault companies fill out things like speeder crews.

Maidel
09-10-2008, 19:56
From previous 'fluff' and its not mentioned in this codex, the reserve chapters used to be the drivers for the vehicles. So the 7th reserve tactical company were the rhino crews, the 8th assult company were the bikers and speeder pilots and the 9th devastator company did the predators, raiders and vindicators.

However, you might be right, none of that is mentioned in this codex.


That makes 90 rhinos/ Razorbacks
25 predators
8 Vindicators
9 Whirlwinds
12 Landraiders
1 Land raider maximus(??)

IF I remember correctly thats 2 crew in the pred, vindicator and whirlwind:

187 crew for all of them

1292 Marines + x Chaplains + 25 'Dead Marines'


Anyone find any more hidden marines?

Maidel
09-10-2008, 20:03
More like how many times has this been brought up?

Please us the search function the site so kindly provides, and yes there is more than a thousand...it has never been anywhere that it is a thousand...why, because of the scout company and auxilia, tech support and hundreds of other titles and jobs...it is roughly a thousand marines...not roughly a thousand and fourty nine!

Having typed '1000'
'chapter'
'how many marines in a chapter'
'Chapter size'

into the search bar and produced ZERO results on a similar topic on the first 2 pages of each search - I feel totally vindicated in this.

Search bars DO NOT help and people with a stock response like this only engender dislike and bitterness and cause bad feeling.

malika
09-10-2008, 20:06
Hmm, perhaps somebody should create a sticky topic with links to these "regular" discussions such as:
-Chapter size?
-Lost Legions?
-Who is the strongest?
-Who is your favourite?
-Horus Heresy novel discussions?

Helveticus
09-10-2008, 20:09
If I remember correctly the Land Raider Maximus is the converted LR that is Marneus's personal conveyance. The one with the arches, freehand, etc that showed up in White Dwarf way back when they moved over to big base Termies.

Lord Malorne
09-10-2008, 20:11
Hmm, perhaps somebody should create a sticky topic with links to these "regular" discussions such as:
-Chapter size?
-Lost Legions?
-Who is the strongest?
-Who is your favourite?
-Horus Heresy novel discussions?

QFT.

Also a lsit of why people hate this months new army ;).

Lars Porsenna
09-10-2008, 20:33
Just out of curiosity, which codex mentioned the tac reserved troops serving as vehicle crews? I have the 4e and 5e Codices, plus the 3e rulebook. I don't recall it in the 3e Codex either (which I no longer own).

I will say I find that a silly idea. The purpose of reserve squads is to form a, well, reserve. Putting them in vehicles -- especially as small as the SM are -- means one disastrous engagement and you lose a significant portion of your reserves. Besides the point, allocating nearly half your force as a reserve never made sense to me either. IIRC during WWII a US Infantry division typically held 1 Bn as a reserve when on defensive operations. Although I will say this, if you're putting those reserves into other areas (like bikers attached to a line company, or speeders), it makes it a bit less silly in my mind...

Damon.

Maidel
09-10-2008, 20:36
I think we are talking WAY back.

Id fish out the older stuff, but its all still packed up from moving - but ill have a look.

IT might actually have been in white dwarf.

Fire Harte
09-10-2008, 20:42
there are 9 marine companies with marines in. I would think the scouts do not count, as there can be 100+ numbers of these dudes.

So 900+ supporting elements. Which will bring it roughly to 1,000.

I would believe the reserve companies would generally be used as guys for the chapter fleets and vehicles and all of that pish-tush.

Depends on the chapter in question.

Maidel
09-10-2008, 21:01
Interresting point - do scouts count as marines?

Fire Harte
09-10-2008, 21:40
Nope, because they have not recieved their black carapace or power-armour.

That is what I have led to believe.

Maidel
09-10-2008, 22:04
However, from checking in the new codex it says that they have already recieved all their organ enhancements.

So id personally say they are space marines.

Power armour doesnt make the man a space marine (or else sisters of battle would be marines...)

In the same way, blood claws are space marines - they have the same stat line as a scout, but they have their armour.

Fire Harte
09-10-2008, 22:14
Yeah I know that, but you need the Black Carapace which scouts do not have generally, missed out in the codex I know, but it is pretty much the final implant as each organ is usually added in step by step.

But I would also say that scouts do not count, as they are not yet 'fully trained/initiated battle brothers'. They are still earning their place within the chapter.

Codex Astartes is the book that the Space wolves ignore though, and a Blood Claw is not a

Whitehorn
09-10-2008, 22:19
The guide is 1,000.

They're not exactly going to kill off 200 marines because they went over the limit a little...

Maidel
09-10-2008, 22:29
The guide is 1,000.

They're not exactly going to kill off 200 marines because they went over the limit a little...

Yes - but if the mr perfect smurfs are ignoring that rule by between 200-300 marines - what do the other chapters do?

I know that the wolves and templars just plain ignore it (As it seems might the 'clans' of salamanders). But what about the other chapters.

A 'million' marines standing between humanity and the forces od chaos seem to be stretching to 1.5million... which doesnt sound so heroic :)

Leftenant Gashrog
09-10-2008, 23:32
Just out of curiosity, which codex mentioned the tac reserved troops serving as vehicle crews? I have the 4e and 5e Codices, plus the 3e rulebook. I don't recall it in the 3e Codex either (which I no longer own).


It was in Codex: Ultramarines, although it wasn't mentioned in the regular summary, only in the section on the tactical reserve company markings.

NotElite
09-10-2008, 23:59
I too remember the reserve companies as being the source for the missing numbers, such as vehicle crews, chapter fleet, thunderhawk pilots, etc.

Remember, there are only FOUR Battle Companies in a chapter. Those are the actual fighting units. The Reserve Companies almost never fight as formations themselves, except in Epic, so where are they? Crewing, piloting, fixing, training and traveling.

Reserve Companies can never really be at full strength unless the chapter is led by an epic slacker (or cheater). Even Marines die, so the reserves will always be transitioning scouts into the reserves and reserves into the battle companies.

Argastes
10-10-2008, 00:58
10 companies, 100 marines in each = 1000. (it does list that there are only 97 marines in the first company at present - so 997 to be exact)

Maybe this has been changed in the 5th Edition codex, but in all previous SM codices, it doesn't say there are 10 companies of full-fledged Marines plus an eleventh company of scouts; it says there are ten companies total, so nine companies of full-fledged Marines and a tenth company of scouts. So it's not 10 x 100 = 1000 Marines plus scouts; it's 9 x 100 = 900 Marines plus scouts.

Also, in your calculations, you seem to have assumed that all Companies are always at their full strength of 100 Marines, but the 3rd Edition codex made it clear that this was not the case; that is an "on paper" or nominal strength, their actual strength varies due to losses, and all the companies are actually under-strength fairly often. The Ultramarines TO in the 3rd Edition codex listed the actual strength of each company, and for each company, it was a different number somewhere between roughly 85 and 99 Marines. Only the 4th Company was shown as having it's full complement of ten squads of ten, and there was a special footnote pointing this out, which I think suggests that it is an unusual state of affairs.

Generally speaking, I Space Marine company will only actually contain it's full complement of ten squads of ten men if it has been out of action for a while, and has had for all it's holes to be filled with new recruits, while not losing any men in combat.


Yes - but if the mr perfect smurfs are ignoring that rule by between 200-300 marines - what do the other chapters do?

I know that the wolves and templars just plain ignore it (As it seems might the 'clans' of salamanders). But what about the other chapters.

I don't think the Codex Astartes actually contains any "rule" that there must be 1000 Space Marines in a chapter. 1000 Marines is an approximate number that is often used to describe the ROUGH size of a Chapter, but Roboute Guilliman never actually said "Thou shalt have no more than 1000 Marines per chapter. To the best of my knowledge, even the most codex-adherent Chapters don't make any effort to keep their numbers at exactly 1000, and would have no reason not to number closer to 1200 or so once you include HQ and support personnel. So I don't think it makes any sense to say the UM's are "ignoring" a rule, and that this is significant because they are supposed to be in "perfect" adherence with the Codex Astartes.


I too remember the reserve companies as being the source for the missing numbers, such as vehicle crews, chapter fleet, thunderhawk pilots, etc.

Not entirely true. The 2nd Edition codex says that reserve company members only crew vehicles under certain conditions, such as when large tank formations are being fielded, implying that the rest of the time, the crews for a company's vehicles come from within that company (and presumably, a company's rhinos and razorbacks are NEVER crewed by members of other companies). And according the 3rd Edition codex, Thunderhawk pilots come from a separate group of personnel in the Chapter's "Fleet Command", not from the reserve companies. As for fleet spacecraft crews, I believe they are comprised almost entirely of Chapter serfs, not actual Space Marines; a given vessel would only have a few Space Marines aboard in the top officer's positions. The "Fleet Command" also apparently includes a number of "gunnery officers and command crews", who are presumably the only Space Marines who would be in the crew of an SM vessel; so again, SM fleet crewmen are their own separate unit outside the company structure, rather than reserve company members.


Remember, there are only FOUR Battle Companies in a chapter. Those are the actual fighting units. The Reserve Companies almost never fight as formations themselves, except in Epic, so where are they? Crewing, piloting, fixing, training and traveling.

Well, just because something only happens in Epic doesn't mean it's rare; that just means that 40K's tactical scale is too small for it. The Ultramarines codex states that all four reserve companies regularly participate in battles--at full strength, as formations unto themselves--in addition to sometimes serving as vehicle crews. In fact, it only says that the 6th and 7th reserve companies (the all-tactical-squad ones) are used as vehicle crews when the Chapter is fielding large, independent formations of armored vehicles, and implies that the MAIN purpose of the 6th and 7th companies is as a battlefield reserve. That is to say, units who are initially held back during a battle, and then committed where they are needed if they are needed. The 8th company (all assault squads) is described as an "extremely powerful assault force" in addition to sometimes serving as LS crews or bikers, and the 9th company (all devastators) is described as "the most powerfully armed formation in the Chapter", able to deliver "an awesome barrage of long range fire with it's wide variety and sheer numbers of heavy weapons". To me this implies that they, too, are regularly fielded in full strength as formations unto themselves.


Reserve Companies can never really be at full strength unless the chapter is led by an epic slacker (or cheater). Even Marines die, so the reserves will always be transitioning scouts into the reserves and reserves into the battle companies.

I don't think this is how it works. You seem to be saying that as the battle companies suffer casualties, replacements are immediately transferred in from the reserve companies, so that the battle companies are always at full nominal strength and the reserve companies are always undermanned. But the 3rd Edition codex shows almost all the companies--reserve and battle alike--as being somewhat under their nominal strength. And it doesn't seem to show that the reserve companies are more undermanned than the battle companies, which would be the case if men from the reserve companies were used to fill slots in the battle companies as casualties were suffered. This suggests to me that casualties in the battle companies are NOT replaced by men pulled from the reserve companies; both the battle and reserve companies replace their casualties with new Marines fresh from the scout companies, and when a battle company loses a Marine, they have to wait for more scouts to "graduate" before they can fill his spot, rather than pulling a Marine from a reserve company. In other words, when a scout "graduates", he will either be assigned to a battle company or a reserve company, and once assigned, will probably stay there (barring strange circumstances) even if other companies have slots that need to be filled.

Maidel
10-10-2008, 21:02
Maybe this has been changed in the 5th Edition codex, but in all previous SM codices, it doesn't say there are 10 companies of full-fledged Marines plus an eleventh company of scouts; it says there are ten companies total, so nine companies of full-fledged Marines and a tenth company of scouts. So it's not 10 x 100 = 1000 Marines plus scouts; it's 9 x 100 = 900 Marines plus scouts.

This has also been debated. Ive never said the 10th were anything but scouts - but the question is are scouts space marines. Ive always assumed that they were (And the sergeants always used to be vets serving as guides, not sure if thats changed in more recent editions)


Also, in your calculations, you seem to have assumed that all Companies are always at their full strength of 100 Marines, but the 3rd Edition codex made it clear that this was not the case;

Well i did state that quite clearly in my first post....



Generally speaking, I Space Marine company will only actually contain it's full complement of ten squads of ten men if it has been out of action for a while, and has had for all it's holes to be filled with new recruits, while not losing any men in combat.

I disagree. From the fluff chapters are often 'stood down' for long periods of time. I susspect that when a chapter starts a major engagement (Assuming they arent going direct from one warzone to another) that each company is at full strength (or near enough). The current codex puts the strengt of the vets company of the ultramarines at 97. Which for a company with unbelievably hard entry requirements (and id assume heavy losses from always being in the thick of it) shows that they must have been able to refill it quite easily.

fisheyedbunny
10-10-2008, 23:10
check this out from B&C's Librarium...

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?autocom=ineo&showarticle=291