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broxus
11-10-2008, 03:59
I was talking to my good friend at the GW store which is a manager told about the next upcoming codex. He told me that many employees have already been told what it is. All I can say is there is tons of tanks involved in this army, but I wont spill the beans Ill let your imagination answer it for you because things could always change due to production issues.

All I can say is about time!!

MajorWesJanson
11-10-2008, 04:01
IG. No real surprise. I think we are getting the plastic Valk, Stormtroopers, and hopefully plastic command and special weapon box. Likely recut Chims, Russes, and all plastic Hellhounds. Check News and Rumors.

broxus
11-10-2008, 04:12
Yea Im excited IG are coming next but, I sure hope they are done well so they have ability to be more flexiable then the standard gunline. This tends to make them get very boring very fast. Hopefully Ogryns will get a huge buff and points cost and a espeically the Chimera costing half of what it does now. This will lend to more balanced armies.

Warforger
11-10-2008, 04:23
Ummm GW emplyee's aren't really much of an expert on rumours, since by the time they get told this stuff we have been knowing for about 2 years.

weissengel86
11-10-2008, 05:02
Praise be to the emperor its not another damn space marine codex!!! Im glad its the IG (at least if the rumor is true) IG always were cool. Do you guys think it will follow the same line as the SM codex (as in a large expansion of units fluff and characters)?

==Me==
11-10-2008, 05:12
If IG turns out half as cool as the marines are I will be very happy and a little surprised. Here's hoping you treadheads get your due.

Remoah
11-10-2008, 05:14
Yeah... i reckon aye.
If marines get drop pods then guard should get valks and gravchutes included in thier sprues...

Walls
11-10-2008, 05:20
Meh. Drop Pods were even in the 4ed codex so it's not like they are brand new. Just the GW model is.

I am both worried and excited for the new codex as an avid guard player. I worry they will destroy the infantry army, the very fluffy army that 99% of the guard actually is. Hopefully there aren't too many toys. IMO, the only thing needing altering is points cost and maybe some rules. Get rid of doctrines, have special boss types that give you stuff like drop troops or whatever. If your HQ has it then your army can or a certain amount of units or whatever. Very much like the marine codex. Personally I would have them emphasize troops, troops, troops with several things: lowering their cost, free vox, free certain special and heavy weapons perhaps. Better rules for platoons, maybe tank squads to allow for an actual armored company. But yeah, emphasis on the fluff. Boys, boys and more boys, not toys.

MadDoc
11-10-2008, 05:30
Yeah... i reckon aye.
If marines get drop pods then guard should get valks and gravchutes included in thier sprues...

Yes because the Guard are noted as being a Rapid Strike force like Marines who primarily deploy via Deep Strike... :eyebrows:

Seriously... :wtf:

As for the Guard Codex being a massive Codex ala the new SM one, if GW do that they'll be further pissing off DA/BA players and giving people yet more reason to call for the public flogging of Matt Ward and for Jervis to never be allowed to touch another DA Codex again (although if he could gaurantee he wouldn't cock it up again, it might be acceptable, I can't say I'd trust him not to though).

Anyway, new Guard is good, provided my Tanith don't get neutered... *sigh*

Inq. Veltane
11-10-2008, 05:44
So you're saying that all the other books until the new Dark Angels one should be terrible just because Codex Space Marines has annoyed some people by not also rewriting the chapter specific books?

I think more people will be pissed off if everyone else gets sub-par books for the next 4 years than if Guard get a, frankly much needed, boost up to the level of the new Ork and Marine books.

march10k
11-10-2008, 07:31
I sure hope they are done well so they have ability to be more flexiable then the standard gunline. This tends to make them get very boring very fast.

That's odd. I was sure that my mechanized infantry company and the ubiquitous drop troops armies were neither inflexible nor "standard gunline"-sque... Hell, I've been playing IG for nine years, and I've rewritten my list prior to each game...I've used every single unit in the book, save rough riders, at one time or other, including the ones (ahem, heavy mortars) that no longer exist. I've dragged down flyrants under the weight of two score conscripts, krumped a tzeench sorceror with an honorifica psycher, and locked down hordes of gaunts with a couple sentinels. And only on the rares occasion has the list been tailored to the enemy, as I generally write the list before heading down to the FLGS for a couple of pick up games (I find that I have people lined up around the corner for the opportunity to play against a non-MEQ army).

I don't think IG have ever been boring...if anything, that would reflect a lack of imagination on the part of the general. Any army gets boring when you stop tinkering with the list. When I "finished" my black/white DA list, it went 17-1-2 before I packed it away. But it got boring because I stopped modifying or completely rewriting it.

weissengel86
11-10-2008, 07:35
Talking about rough riders I hope they get rid of them. Horses in modern warfare is the stupidest thing ive heard of even dumber then the other examples of handwavium the 40k universe uses. They should replace them with something that actually makes sense.

Ddraiglais
11-10-2008, 07:52
If IG turns out half as cool as the marines are I will be very happy and a little surprised. Here's hoping you treadheads get your due.

Are you mad? We'll be lucky to get half as cool, but nothing will ever touch the all mighty marines (even if fluff supports it).



Yes because the Guard are noted as being a Rapid Strike force like Marines who primarily deploy via Deep Strike... :eyebrows:

Actually it makes sense. Planetfall didn't show up last Summer, but the last rumors I heard were that it was delayed. If Planetfall is still in the works, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a way to deepstrike guard. There's also a ton of threads on here about the plastic Valkyries. If I had to guess, there will still be ways to field infantry. Armor will become more available. They will have some rules for a deepstriking force.



Talking about rough riders I hope they get rid of them. Horses in modern warfare is the stupidest thing ive heard of even dumber then the other examples of handwavium the 40k universe uses. They should replace them with something that actually makes sense.

What do you consider modern warfare? Most historians will point to the ACW or Crimea as the starting point for modern warfare. They had cavalry back then. There was a lot of cavalry at the start of WW I. WW II saw the use of horses more as beasts of burden, but they still used horses. I'm not positive about now, but China had cavalry (not air cav, I'm talking about soldiers on horseback with AKs) at least through early 90s.

40K has so many different terrains. The Imperium has so many different planets with differing tech levels. I think calvary in 40K makes a lot of sense. Now I do hope they get rid of the dated rough rider minis they do have. The Tallarn ones are decent. The FW Tallarn and DKoK RR are excellent. The wanna-be Mongol RRs are horrible.

Ubermensch Commander
11-10-2008, 08:01
Guard should remain where they are. Dying in droves for the glory of the God-Emperor. Forward Scum! Into the Breach! MWhahahaha!

What can I say? I like Commissars.

*crosses fingers for plastic trenchcoat models*
Steel LegionSteelLegionSteelLegion*mantra repeats*

Only way I will start a Guard army...do my Afrika Korp tribute!

Velsharoon
11-10-2008, 11:02
if i get plastics in the same vein as steel legion or whatever sign me up :D

Bunnahabhain
11-10-2008, 11:11
GW shop staff are not the most reliable sources of information like this, I've had them direct me to warseer for rumours etc before....

A new guard codex doesn't need new fluff, it just needs lots of the old stuff made accessible, rather than tucked away in White Dwarf 190. You know, back when WD had random fluff stories in it , rather than trying to sellt he latest release....

I'm hoping the Guard codex is like 90% of the Marine one- just missing the silly expensive, special characters.
Reasonably powerful, but not over the top, and as flexible as the current one. If both of those are true, so you can actually use most units without hobbling yourself, and a good variety of play styles are viable, then this will be a more exciting Guard to play, and to face.

More tanks are not bad, so long as there has been sufficient though taken to get the infantry right, and there are ways to use them. Last time we had griffons, few people took them as they competed directly with better choices in the HS section. If they're available as a platoon upgrade, or a couple of them form one HS choice, then they're useful. There are ways to make everything useful, I hope they are!

Bregalad
11-10-2008, 11:19
I was talking to my good friend at the GW store which is a manager told about the next upcoming codex. He told me that many employees have already been told what it is. All I can say is there is tons of tanks involved in this army, but I wont spill the beans Ill let your imagination answer it for you because things could always change due to production issues.

All I can say is about time!!
Has been confirmed by one of our top sources, Harry, a month ago in the "Release Dates" thread:
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159839&page=3

IG rumours including the tank issue can be found here:
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163303

T_55
11-10-2008, 11:33
If anything the Imperial Guardsmen codex should be bigger than the Space Marine codex, while i fully understand that will never ever happen theres no harm in speculating :p. I'd love to see some new characters and god knows such a vast organisation should have more, even better would be if they where similar to the marine characters in that they can be captured in a number of armies.

However i'm far more interested in seeing the new models, though something tells me i'll be disappointed.

The boyz
11-10-2008, 11:36
Yeah the IG should be next. I hope they do a plastic Valkyrie, cant wait to get my hands on one of them, if they do.

Lord Cook
11-10-2008, 12:03
Talking about rough riders I hope they get rid of them. Horses in modern warfare is the stupidest thing ive heard of even dumber then the other examples of handwavium the 40k universe uses. They should replace them with something that actually makes sense.

Horses make perfect sense in the context of the 40k universe. They are cheap to produce on worlds that may lack the technology or resources to produce armoured vehicles. Horses are plentiful, highly obedient, and able to navigate terrain that no vehicle ever created (in real life or 40k) could hope to traverse. Horses can swim very well, and they can be trained to kick and bite in hand to hand combat. They don't require petroleum-type fuel, and can live off the land by eating local fauna and foodstuffs, without the need for processing. Horses can be used in combat as a means of creating a powerful charge, and we already know hand-to-hand is an important part of any Imperial arsenal, more so than in the real world. Also, if a tank runs out of fuel, it's stuck. If a horse runs out of food/water, you can eat the horse. Lastly, horses were used extensively during both World Wars, particularly the First, and they are still used a great deal in modern urban environments for riot control and day to day policing.

In short, it does make sense, you're just not thinking about all the different factors beyond "Tanks are the roxxerzzz!!!one!1!1!!".

Xenobane
11-10-2008, 12:39
Horses make perfect sense in the context of the 40k universe. They are cheap to produce on worlds that may lack the technology or resources to produce armoured vehicles. Horses are plentiful, highly obedient, and able to navigate terrain that no vehicle ever created (in real life or 40k) could hope to traverse. Horses can swim very well, and they can be trained to kick and bite in hand to hand combat. They don't require petroleum-type fuel, and can live off the land by eating local fauna and foodstuffs, without the need for processing. Horses can be used in combat as a means of creating a powerful charge, and we already know hand-to-hand is an important part of any Imperial arsenal, more so than in the real world. Also, if a tank runs out of fuel, it's stuck. If a horse runs out of food/water, you can eat the horse. Lastly, horses were used extensively during both World Wars, particularly the First, and they are still used a great deal in modern urban environments for riot control and day to day policing.

In short, it does make sense, you're just not thinking about all the different factors beyond "Tanks are the roxxerzzz!!!one!1!1!!".

Agreed, of course.

My problem with the Rough Riders is that the don't aethetically match much of the existing 40k universe. If there were Attillan Guard troops on foot, fine. The FW Tallarn and <salivates> DKoK riders show it's perfectly possible to produce believable models. For the next codex I'd like to see properly themed Rough Riders for each of the plastic Guard sets.

victorpofa
11-10-2008, 22:06
And that means light motorcycles for Cadia. :D

I have no problem with horse Rough Riders, but I am hoping that they either mechanize Rough riders, or add a light bike unit as a separate choice. A light recon and charge squad like scout bikes, but more WWII looking rather than the monstrous marine bikes. Otherwise I will go back to my plan of using the marine Scout bikes for Rough Riders.

Bunnahabhain
11-10-2008, 23:07
I agree with 99% of Lord Cooks reasons on why horse mounted troops make sense in 40K.

However, no matter how grim and dark the universe,


...and can live off the land by eating local fauna...

I don't think we'll have carnivorous horses.

I like the option of rough riders, ogryns, and ratlings, but I can understand why some people don't like them, especially for model related reasons.
I'd like to see a footnote on the unit entries saying the Guard uses a wide variety of local units, with troops mounted on horses, bikes and xeno creatures.
Mechanically enhanced servitors can be used in the same way as Ogryns.

The precise fluff doesn't matter, but something of that order to explicitly include alternate models for these units.

Templar Ben
11-10-2008, 23:13
We use horses today. http://www.kelticklankirk.com/horse_cavalry_in_modern_combat_files/image001.jpg

Edit:

FM 31-27 is the field manual on Special Forces Operations with mules.

Vaktathi
11-10-2008, 23:14
Yes because the Guard are noted as being a Rapid Strike force like Marines who primarily deploy via Deep Strike... :eyebrows:

Seriously... :wtf: Have you never heard of Drop Troops or Elysian/Harakoni regiments, nor Stormtroopers or Valkyries?

Chem-Dog
12-10-2008, 00:54
Talking about rough riders I hope they get rid of them. Horses in modern warfare is the stupidest thing ive heard of even dumber then the other examples of handwavium the 40k universe uses. They should replace them with something that actually makes sense.

Tish and Pish, for reasons others have stated, ponies are totally 40K.


Last time we had griffons, few people took them as they competed directly with better choices in the HS section. If they're available as a platoon upgrade, or a couple of them form one HS choice, then they're useful. There are ways to make everything useful, I hope they are!

I'd rather just see the Griffon as a suitably different unit to the Basalisk or Russ capable of fulfilling a niche that the others don't, it used to have variable ammunition so all we need is to visit that again, Plasma, Uber-frag and Flamer wasn't it? So something in the order of :-Small blast S7 AP 2/ Large blast S5 AP 4/ Large blast S4 AP5 Ignores Cover, the flexibility will make it a viable choice.


Tanks are the roxxerzzz!!!one!1!1!!

QFT



My problem with the Rough Riders is that the don't aethetically match much of the existing 40k universe. If there were Attillan Guard troops on foot, fine. The FW Tallarn and <salivates> DKoK riders show it's perfectly possible to produce believable models. For the next codex I'd like to see properly themed Rough Riders for each of the plastic Guard sets.

The Atilans are now some of the oldest working minis out there, they're showing their age but I'd still love to see a Mogul Kamir mini. I suspect that Rought Riders will remain largely unsupported which is a shame, especially as WHFB has plenty of horses that could be used, meaning it'd be a case of producing a handful of riders, in the case of the cadians, even less just legs and arms maybe with a few different heads.


Have you never heard of Drop Troops or Elysian/Harakoni regiments, nor Stormtroopers or Valkyries?

All are considered Specialist and Elite, not what you'd call "Normal Guard" ;)
But then again, SM's are considered Elite....

weissengel86
12-10-2008, 01:39
Horses make perfect sense in the context of the 40k universe. They are cheap to produce on worlds that may lack the technology or resources to produce armoured vehicles. Horses are plentiful, highly obedient, and able to navigate terrain that no vehicle ever created (in real life or 40k) could hope to traverse. Horses can swim very well, and they can be trained to kick and bite in hand to hand combat. They don't require petroleum-type fuel, and can live off the land by eating local fauna and foodstuffs, without the need for processing. Horses can be used in combat as a means of creating a powerful charge, and we already know hand-to-hand is an important part of any Imperial arsenal, more so than in the real world. Also, if a tank runs out of fuel, it's stuck. If a horse runs out of food/water, you can eat the horse. Lastly, horses were used extensively during both World Wars, particularly the First, and they are still used a great deal in modern urban environments for riot control and day to day policing.

In short, it does make sense, you're just not thinking about all the different factors beyond "Tanks are the roxxerzzz!!!one!1!1!!". Id like to see you tell that to the US army or the forces of the UK or the european miltaries or the current chinese military. All the "advantages" you mentioned obviously mean nothing whatsoever if current armies have completely gotten rid of horses in place of vehicles. Kick in bite in close combat? when you fight a chaos marine or eldar soldiers with your amazing biting horse and live to tell about it why dont you come back and tell me the story. Or better yet why dont you go to a real warzone with your horse and tell me how you do. Horses dont use fuel? This means almost nothing as if i recall leman russes and the like run on almost anything plus while traveling would you rather be shot at with explosive rounds and fragmentary explosives on a horse or an armoured vehicle that can actually keep you alive? Horses were used during both world wars? Yes that is definitely true but try fighting with the tactics used in world war 1 and 2 in a modern day warzone and see how succesful you are.

Lord Inquisitor
12-10-2008, 01:57
Although it should be noted that the Polish cavalry charge against german tanks at the start of WWII did not end well.

The most exciting thing about the new Guard codex for me is the rumour of Inquisitors being included. Surprised?

Lisiecki
12-10-2008, 01:58
clearly the squat's


I was talking to my good friend at the GW store which is a manager told about the next upcoming codex. He told me that many employees have already been told what it is. All I can say is there is tons of tanks involved in this army, but I wont spill the beans Ill let your imagination answer it for you because things could always change due to production issues.

All I can say is about time!!

MadDoc
12-10-2008, 05:39
Have you never heard of Drop Troops or Elysian/Harakoni regiments, nor Stormtroopers or Valkyries?

Yes but why would any of those suggest Grav shutes on the basic Guard sprue? They're either specialist Regiments (and in the minority, unlike Marines using Drop Pods) or Specialist units (if Stormies have grav shutes on their sprue all good, but not on the basic Guard sprue

Edit: Ignore all that, I just realised that you didn't actually mean on the basic sprue, but on a specialist sprue... :o

MajorWesJanson
12-10-2008, 06:43
Maybe put grav chutes on the Stormtrooper sprue, or include a set with the Valkerye?

Fellblade
12-10-2008, 08:08
I am very much looking forward to the IG codex. I think my local store owner said the codex was supposed to be even thicker than the new SM one but I have no idea if that's accurate at all.

I have mixed feelings about Valkyries as codex units. Sure they look great and I love aircraft, but I just don't see them as a unit for 40k battles.

Likewise, I really like the idea of the IG army heavily supported by armor in combined arms armies. Tanks as just so fragile on the 40k battlefield I rarely find them worthwhile and 5th ed made them even weaker. Sure, sometimes you meet someone who forget to take enough anti-tank firepower and you can grind them under your treads, but that's the exception rather than the rule. I'm going to be really disappointed of IG become the "LOL i gotz TNAKZ!!1" army.


So here's to hoping the IG get better. Its a good codex now but its showing its age. Update the point costs to the new GW balance scheme, correct it for 5th ed, integrate the doctrines, allow a wider access to the motor pool and all will be well.

Shibboleth
12-10-2008, 09:01
Although it should be noted that the Polish cavalry charge against german tanks at the start of WWII did not end well.Which was more likely German propaganda than an actual event, although I still remember seeing footage of a Stuka leisurely strafing Polish cavalry from behind, kind of like a skimmer in 40K might do.

Armchair General
12-10-2008, 12:16
<snip> but try fighting with the tactics used in world war 1 and 2 in a modern day warzone and see how succesful you are.


Except we're not talking about a modern day warzone; we're talking about 40K. And besides, the rule-of-cool trumps any logical argument every time...

Lord Cook
12-10-2008, 12:48
However, no matter how grim and dark the universe...
I don't think we'll have carnivorous horses.

Flora, dammit, flora! ;)

Honest mistake...


Id like to see you tell that to the US army or the forces of the UK or the european miltaries or the current chinese military. All the "advantages" you mentioned obviously mean nothing whatsoever if current armies have completely gotten rid of horses in place of vehicles.

I like the way you avoided the parts of my explanation that voided your entire argument.

"They are cheap to produce on worlds that may lack the technology or resources to produce armoured vehicles."
--Our world lacks neither the resources nor the technology for fully mechanized warfare. Our capacity for rapidly producing large numbers of armoured vehicles is enough that we don't need to resort to animals, and we can adapt and create new vehicle designs very quickly to solve new problems. This is something countless 40k worlds cannot do.

"Horses are plentiful, highly obedient, and able to navigate terrain that no vehicle ever created (in real life or 40k) could hope to traverse."
--Our continents are, for the most part, comfortable terrain for any armoured vehicle to cross. Lots of open plains, river valleys, grasslands, etc. I think it's safe to assume not every 40k world will be so flat, or so hospitable.
On the plentiful side, also remember we can fix vehicles very easily, with large numbers of spare parts and integrated mechanics. Lost vehicles can be quickly replaced. This does not apply in the Imperium, where many vehicles are considered precious artifacts, and the Adeptus Mechanicus hasn't exactly warmed to the idea of instructions manuals.

"and they can be trained to kick and bite in hand to hand combat."
--And how is this any less effective than a 6' bloke with a small knife on the end of a stick? The fact that medieval warhorses were trained to actually fight and kick and such, even though the principal enemy of such riders would be other heavily armoured knights, shows that people take any advantage they can get. How is this different?


Yes that is definitely true but try fighting with the tactics used in world war 1 and 2 in a modern day warzone and see how succesful you are.

But don't you see this is often exactly how the Imperial Guard fights? You have, I assume, actually read about the Imperial Guard? Don't get so hung up about how a modern real world force fights, because 40k is not the modern world. Some regiments don't use rough riders. Take the Elysians for example. They have clearly developed tactics and weapons that no longer require animals as support. But there are countless regiments who haven't made that leap yet, and as such horses fit perfectly within their background.

Hakkapelli
12-10-2008, 13:28
Although it should be noted that the Polish cavalry charge against german tanks at the start of WWII did not end well.

This is a common myth, loosly based on facts, about the polish campaign.

What actually happened was that a squadron (company) of polish cavalry was attacked by german panzers after wiping out a company of kradschutzen (motorbike mounted infantry from a panzerdivision). Since the panzers were faster then the cavalrymen the polish were forced to attack, maybe in an attempt to 'run the gauntlet', and were cut down by machin-gun fire.

Although this seems to rule out cavalry as a viable combat force we must not forget that the cavalry had already defeated a numbericly superior infantry force and that while the panzers of the wehrmacht have taken most of the "glory" of WW2, the armoured divisions made up a small part of the wehrmacht and allied armies. Even the panzerdivisions had only 1 regement of panzers to show against it's 2 regements of schutzen/panzergrenadiers.

MajorWesJanson
12-10-2008, 13:36
I have mixed feelings about Valkyries as codex units. Sure they look great and I love aircraft, but I just don't see them as a unit for 40k battles.

Many of the Eldar and Tau vehicles are basically light aircraft. A Valk played as a skimmer would work fine. Hopefully it will have something to counter it's large profile though.

Lord Inquisitor
12-10-2008, 15:27
It should be noted that they are simply skimmers like Eldar grav tanks in Epic: Armageddon. Works just fine there.

Templar Ben
12-10-2008, 15:46
Id like to see you tell that to the US army or the forces of the UK or the european miltaries or the current chinese military. All the "advantages" you mentioned obviously mean nothing whatsoever if current armies have completely gotten rid of horses in place of vehicles. Kick in bite in close combat? when you fight a chaos marine or eldar soldiers with your amazing biting horse and live to tell about it why dont you come back and tell me the story. Or better yet why dont you go to a real warzone with your horse and tell me how you do. Horses dont use fuel? This means almost nothing as if i recall leman russes and the like run on almost anything plus while traveling would you rather be shot at with explosive rounds and fragmentary explosives on a horse or an armoured vehicle that can actually keep you alive? Horses were used during both world wars? Yes that is definitely true but try fighting with the tactics used in world war 1 and 2 in a modern day warzone and see how succesful you are.

Perhaps you missed my bit about FM 31-27? I can't give a link because the US Special Forces use of mules is restricted access (NOFORN) but if you do a search you may be able to find a copy to read. As part of OEF, my unit received almost 2 tons of horse fodder. We use horses now.

Edit:
Here is a news article from USASOC. http://news.soc.mil/releases/News%20Archive/2002/02DEC/021210-01.htm That course is focused on donkeys and llamas because of the wider availability of small animals. So not only does the Special Operations community in the US use horses but also donkeys, burros, and llamas.

max the dog
12-10-2008, 15:58
Talking about rough riders I hope they get rid of them. Horses in modern warfare is the stupidest thing ive heard of even dumber then the other examples of handwavium the 40k universe uses. They should replace them with something that actually makes sense.

HERITIC!!!!!!

But seriously, they are the best counter assault unit in the guard codex vrs marine type armies. They're quick enough to get where they're needed and those lances can shred power armor better than a powerweapon.

Egaeus
12-10-2008, 16:12
Flora, dammit, flora! ;)

Honest mistake...


Just to point out that mounts/beasts of burden wouldn't necessarily have to be horses as we know them...just look at the Knarlocs of the Kroot. Plus we never know what kind of changes evolution could have in thousands of years and on alien worlds, not to mention potential effects of the Warp. We could well end up with carnivorous horses.

I agree with Chem-Dog that it's rather disappointing that with a good amount of cavalry in Fantasy that there haven't been GW-issued updated Rough Rider models. Perhaps GW just figures one could buy some Fantasy cavalry and just glue on some lasguns...

Bookwrak
12-10-2008, 19:05
All my rough riders are mounted on cut down space marine bikes. Works pretty damn well from my point of view.

Fellblade
13-10-2008, 00:02
My roughriders are mounted on wfb cold ones (lizards) since it follows the desert/arid theme of my army better and looks pretty darn cool. Neither horses or bikes would do very well in desert sand, but the lizards would right at home.


Many of the Eldar and Tau vehicles are basically light aircraft. A Valk played as a skimmer would work fine. Hopefully it will have something to counter it's large profile though.
Yeah, that's the problem though. Its just so big and only has the armor/transport capacity of a rhino for four times the cost. Either its going to be totally overhauled with special rules, new point cost, and everything else or its just going to end up as a red herring in the list. Regardless, I'd just as soon see it left out since it doesn't fit the scope of the game very well. I love them, I just don't think its realistic for 40k games.

Vaktathi
13-10-2008, 00:38
Yeah, that's the problem though. Its just so big and only has the armor/transport capacity of a rhino for four times the cost. Either its going to be totally overhauled with special rules, new point cost, and everything else or its just going to end up as a red herring in the list. Regardless, I'd just as soon see it left out since it doesn't fit the scope of the game very well. I love them, I just don't think its realistic for 40k games.

If it were just a Fast Skimmer for 70pts (before adding things like Lascannons to it), I think it would be a great addition, and wouldn't really be too far outside the scope of the IG list.

NotElite
13-10-2008, 04:00
Anyway, new Guard is good, provided my Tanith don't get neutered... *sigh*

You can always play with your models but using army rules, or make up your own house rules! -- Jervis :eek:

Bloodknight
13-10-2008, 09:27
As for no modern army using horses: Germany and Switzerland at least use horses and mules with their mountain infantry. Bikes aren't that useful at climbing mountains, and engines suffer severe loss of power at height due to lack of oxygen in the air.

As for the abhumans: I know that several people don't like them in the IG, but demanding to cut them from the codex is hilarious. They make the IG into what the IG is. If they didn't exist, where would the real 40K feel of the army go? All we'd have would be some lame pseudo-WWII representation.
@those guys: just that you don't like it doesn't mean that other people should not have access to it. Self restriction based on opinion: fine. Restricting others because of often misunderstood sense of fluff: bad.

Sidstyler
13-10-2008, 09:43
You can always play with your models but using army rules, or make up your own house rules! -- Jervis :eek:

Yes, but making up your own rules doesn't usually fly over well in most GW events or RTTs. But then again Jervis/GW have said they don't care, so...:eyebrows:

If they can give IG stuff like the valkyrie and make it work then I'd be interested in barracudas for the Tau codex. The skimmer thing bothers me though, I just don't see how...

Lord Solar Plexus
13-10-2008, 09:53
I agree with 99% of Lord Cooks reasons on why horse mounted troops make sense in 40K.

However, no matter how grim and dark the universe,

I don't think we'll have carnivorous horses.


What about those Tallarn steeds? :)


Id like to see you tell that to the US army or the forces of the UK or the european miltaries or the current chinese military.


You must be kidding. 40k isn't modern warfare, friend. Orks and Nids and assault termis aren't exactly known for their GAU 8's, Minutemen or guided missile technology, and they don't speak much Chinese. Cavalry fits just as well as Big Bertha train cannon-like Basilisks.



All the "advantages" you mentioned obviously mean nothing whatsoever if current armies have completely gotten rid of horses in place of vehicles.


You are under a misconception. 'Modern armies' are irrelevant to this discussion.



Or better yet why dont you go to a real warzone with your horse and tell me how you do.


I've been on Armageddon and experienced fighting in the Solstice Nebula as well as on Garfield Primaris, and horses have been quite useful there.

I'd like you to try to refute this experience with a modern day analysis of modern day militaries... :)



plus while traveling would you rather be shot at with explosive rounds and fragmentary explosives on a horse or an armoured vehicle that can actually keep you alive?

Would you be rather shot or not? Is anyone even asked when they sign up for the Guard what they'd rather do? I still fail to see the relevance of your interjection. You could as well argue that horses make no sense under a completely different ruleset.

Ddraiglais
14-10-2008, 14:24
Id like to see you tell that to the US army or the forces of the UK or the european miltaries or the current chinese military. All the "advantages" you mentioned obviously mean nothing whatsoever if current armies have completely gotten rid of horses in place of vehicles.

The Indian 61st Cavalry still use horses. The Chinses PLA still uses horses in Xinjing for border patrol. The Soviets had cavalry in it's regular forces until 1955. They maintained horses in Kyrgystan until the breakup of the USSR. The Mexican army maintained horse mounted cavalry until the mid 90s. Chile had cavalry until 83.

Even in cases where countries don't maintain cavalry, there is still a place for mounted troops. Most modern armies will still use horses for horse mounted infantry. Horses allow you to get over terrain that tanks and APCs/AFV can't. I've also included a few pics of the modern use of cavalry.

alphastealer
14-10-2008, 14:41
I think rough riders could be modernized by riding mechanical horses with built in boosters, sort of like saber rider and the star sheriffs.

All they would need then is a ramrod equalizer vehicle...or is that the role that baneblade is filling.

sliganian
14-10-2008, 14:49
I remember when I was working with Pete Haines et. al. in testing the last Guard Codex. The issue of whether or not to keep Rough Riders was a hotly contested one, with the ultimate conclusion being that
a) they are embedded in the storylines too much to simply remove.
b) with the right rules, they can be a cool addition to an IG army.

In fact, I plan to (someday) do my jungle themed IG with SnakeRiders as Rough Riders. Yes. Snakes.
I want these m-fin' Snakes in my m-fin' game!

Lord Inquisitor
14-10-2008, 15:49
Personally, I really think they need to expand on the "xeno mounts" idea. The concept of guard riding giant space lizards is somehow far, far more acceptable to my suspension of disbelief than riding actual horsies.

And way cooler.

Ddraiglais
14-10-2008, 16:59
There's nothing stopping you from having lizards, snakes, mechanical horses, or whatever right now. All it would take is a little bit of conversion work or sculpting. I can't sculpt, but I bet I could find some bits to make some kind of interesting mount if I really wanted to.

victorpofa
15-10-2008, 00:40
IG riding Dewbacks! :chrome:

Cavalry don't have to be horses or lizards, or even bikes. Eldar have cavalry too. The Shining Spears just ride jetbikes. :evilgrin:

Hellfury
15-10-2008, 02:12
One thing that is bugging me is the way some guard players feel that having an entire platoon be worth 1KP is somehow balanced. Dont get me wrong, the way it works now is far from balanced as well, but you are taking guard from being difficult to win with in annihilation to being impossible to win against in annihilation.

After playing in the ard boyz last weekend and seeing how many people took advantage of the scoring for platoons = 1KP it quickly became apparent that a whole platoon = 1KP is broken as hell. you have to remove every last model in 55 men, and then the guardsman can simply deny you that last kill by DPing the last squad far far away from harm, or running away with any remnants of the platoon left.

Sod that crap. Broken as hell doesn't begin to describe the displeasure in facing that three times in a row on the same damned day.

Otherwise, I hope IG get some sweet goodies that make them as nifty looking as the marine codex was able to make marines seem. They could use some good freshening up, like all the other armies waiting for some love.

Lord Inquisitor
15-10-2008, 02:14
Agreed, 1 platoon = 1 KP throws things completely the other way. To be honest, 1 unit = 0.5KP is probably a workable special rule as far as the basic infantry are concerned.