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TheWarSmith
12-10-2008, 15:28
So my store let me sit down with the book for almost 2 hours, and my friend got to play test an army of them.

Best part was a 105 point unit of Khornate marauder horsemen. 10 S5 flail attacks and 10 S3 horse attacks, all for just a pathetic 105 points.

Marauders are great now, being very low cost, and having access to great weapons, flails, and marks.

Warriors are sick. They are basically the chosen of old(+1A and chaos armour), and chosen are a little bit better, getting a free eye of the gods roll at the beginning of the game w/ guaranteed good results.

Giants are neat, being able to take marks(ASF giant anybody?)

Shaggoths took a hit on their armour save(no more heavy armour), but gained a point of strength

Hellcannons are massively simplified, no longer take up 2 rares, no gifts, and FUN misfire chart(all wizards auto miscast, hehe).

MARKS
I personally think Tzeentch took a bit of a hit here. 6+ ward save(or +1 to existing ward save). Just doesn't seem as characterful as it used to be. Although their casters do get +1 to cast, but now you mark wizards and wizard lords instead of marking a combat character and turning them into a wizard.

Slaanesh is now just immune to fear, terror, and panic, so they can now run

For those of you wondering if the Daemon prince would be better in this book than the daemons one, the answer is a STRAIGHT up YES. This one causes terror, can be a lvl 4 caster of any god, and isn't immune to psych.

One magic item combo that looks awesome.
1 use only. Turn any unsuccessful enemy spellcasting into a miscast.

2nd item
Anytime an enemy(and maybe friendly?) wizard suffers a miscast, you can alter the miscast roll by d3 points on the table.

Combine the 2nd one w/ the tzeentch spell that remains in play and makes all doubles miscast for the enemy.

The Dragon ogre character is just disgusting. S8 and 7 attacks, d6 S6 shooting attacks(or makes himself frenzy on a 1 instead), T6, W8, and a 2+ armour save.

Grimtuff
12-10-2008, 15:50
One magic item combo that looks awesome.
1 use only. Turn any unsuccessful enemy spellcasting into a miscast.


Oh yes! :evilgrin:

My other fave is Father of Blades (all 1's your opponent rolls to hit strike them) and Armour of Damnation (re-roll successful hits). :D

I'm liking the book a lot too. Even though some of the more, shall we say "up their own backside" players were saying Warriors will never be seen in an army. i'm failing to see what is so bad about them.
Yes, you're pushing 350pts for a 20 man marked unit with full command, but that thing is a fricking anvil. It will sit there and absorb hits (even moreso with Festus and/or Fleshy Abundance cast on them.)

loveless
12-10-2008, 18:05
Oh, I am excited for this book, yes I am.

The Mark of Slaanesh especially feels like it got a boost - not to mention that the Mark of Nurgle is a bit more...interesting.

Cartoon
12-10-2008, 18:18
Personally I think the army will be somewhere near the top of the middle tier (hopefully). There are certain things that are a real let down, like the chaos gifts and the magic items selection. We will also have a tough time with skirmishers, shooters, and flyers but I hope it's nothing that can't be overcome through careful planning. In friendly games I think WOC will do fine, but on the tournament scene it's going to be rough.

I don't play tournaments though so it's not a big deal to me, but I can see how some others are kind of let down, especially after the split which weakened them significantly.

Frankly
12-10-2008, 18:39
The one thing I was a bit .... heh .... about was the lack of skirmishers, flyers and basic support.

Basically you have an army with no shooting support phase and no mobile support accept of horsemen and doggies.

But over all I really liked the feel of the book, I thought the characters were all great, especially that good looking slaanesh guy.

Hey, were chaos knights allowed lances or spears or was that just in a picture?

40kdhs
12-10-2008, 18:47
WoC book is really SICK.

SolarHammer
12-10-2008, 18:55
Low tier.
Lack of ranged threat means the enemy has no reason to advance.
Lack of viable support units means WoC is the easiest army to march block.
Those two combined mean that all the M4 infantry in the book is useless unless you are making a Marauder horde.

Total lack of synergy in the book. The whole thing functions about as well as a square wheel. Might be better than Tomb Kings and Ogres.

Games with and against them will be soooo boring. :(

Chaos: "I move my guys forward a bit"
Opponent: "I don't"

TheWarSmith
12-10-2008, 19:26
Yes, I was a bit miffed to see that there are no flyers or skirmishers of any sort.

I suppose that can always be fixed by running a DoW skrimish unit if you wanted to go that way. Not my favorite, but it's an option, right?

I think you'll be seeing a LOT of marauder horsemen. They'll be great flank protection, and since they're so cheap(14 pts/model), you'll see people squeezing in more of them. Nurgle(-1 to hit shooting & combat) horsemen will be great, as shooting is most peoples' easiest way to remove them.

Tzeentch magic looks fairly good.

Flickering fire(same as daemons) is back for the lvl 1 spell. They also get a spell that forces a model to make an LD test, and takes wounds equal to amount he fails by. Fantastic for champion and low ld character sniping. Seems like it would be awesome against daemon heralds.

They get green fire back(different name), and then they get an 18" spell to turn a rank/file model into a remains in play exalted hero(great for marauders).

Their ultra nuke spell is 2d6 hits at 2d6 strength, and if strength is 11 or 12, the unit simply dies. Drawback is that it's cast on a 15+.

Nighthawke
12-10-2008, 19:31
Their ultra nuke spell is 2d6 hits at 2d6 strength, and if strength is 11 or 12, the unit simply dies. Drawback is that it's cast on a 15+.

well id duno, give them mark of tzeentch and i belive that it becomes +14 as you get plus one to cast spells?

Shamfrit
12-10-2008, 19:36
Their ultra nuke spell is 2d6 hits at 2d6 strength, and if strength is 11 or 12, the unit simply dies. Drawback is that it's cast on a 15+.

Wowser.

Maybe people wills top whinging about 2d6S5 on a 9+ now, i'd take that spell ANYDAY>

neXus6
12-10-2008, 19:40
Yeah Shamfrit it seems like they saw how rubbish they made the Tzeetch daemon lore spell 6 and decided that instead of fixing it they would just make the Mortal one utterly obscene. :D

I think the army is going to have some pretty powerful combinations, I don't know if it will get up there with some of the hideous tournament staples like cheesed out Daemons or Dual Steam Tanks, but it will probably just edge into the top tier if not high 2nd tier in my opinion.

Grimtuff
12-10-2008, 20:24
The one thing I was a bit .... heh .... about was the lack of skirmishers, flyers and basic support.

Erm, Forsaken skirmish. Okay, they're Frenzied so you can't control them per se, but there is a skirmishing unit there.



Hey, were chaos knights allowed lances or spears or was that just in a picture?

Yes, Knights can have lances. Rather cheaply too as you're only (effectively) buying them +1S over their standard weaponry (and losing magical attacks)

Lordsaradain
12-10-2008, 20:40
One magic item combo that looks awesome.
1 use only. Turn any unsuccessful enemy spellcasting into a miscast.

2nd item
Anytime an enemy(and maybe friendly?) wizard suffers a miscast, you can alter the miscast roll by d3 points on the table.

Combine the 2nd one w/ the tzeentch spell that remains in play and makes all doubles miscast for the enemy.



Only problem is you pay 85 pts for that combo and will also suffer an unsaved wound. Is it really worth it?


Erm, Forsaken skirmish. Okay, they're Frenzied so you can't control them per se, but there is a skirmishing unit there.




Are you 100% sure? all rumours say otherwise.

SolarHammer
12-10-2008, 20:45
Erm, Forsaken skirmish. Okay, they're Frenzied so you can't control them per se, but there is a skirmishing unit there.



Yes, Knights can have lances. Rather cheaply too as you're only (effectively) buying them +1S over their standard weaponry (and losing magical attacks)

Forsaken do not skirmish.

+5 points for a lance is fracking ridiculous, not cheap. That's a 13% cost increase to lose magic attacks and +1S all the time in exchange for +2S on the charge. Totally not worth it and totally insane.

I have no idea where you got your information, but it is incorrect.

Mireadur
12-10-2008, 22:13
So any info about how the hell cannon deals with the losing of the crew? Thanks in advance.

TheWarSmith
12-10-2008, 22:25
I don't remember the rules for what happens when it loses crew, but I would think it suffers just like any normal stone thrower, so if it gets down to 1 crew, it can only fire every other turn.

Some of its misfires:
eat d3 crew
eat all crew
resolve whole template at S10, but then remove cannon
all wizards miscast immediately.

Forsaken do NOT skirmish, and they're GARBAGE. d3+1 attacks(due to skirmish), and only have heavy armour.

Trolls are pretty good now. If they regen 2+ wounds in a round, they make a free eye of the gods roll. This will make you think twice about how to take them out. Still ld4 and stupid, but oh well.

warhounds have the option for poison, but don't expect to see anybody do it, as it's +3 per model.

Don't expect to see many lance knights. If it was a free swap, then maybe. But.

Chariots are now a 1 spot special, but they've improved in the fact that they get 4 S5 attacks, and 2 S4 attacks on charge, +1+d6 impacts.

Frankly
12-10-2008, 22:26
hhmmmm ... man, I can't even remember seeing the hell cannon in there.

There specials selection seemed so bloated with good choices .. well hard hitting choices, I wonder if chariots will be pushed out of some army lists.

Chosen seemed pretty damned godly imho.

OldMaster
12-10-2008, 22:31
Still I'm going to model some of my Knights with lances, they just look awesome.

Mireadur, it's really simple. The Hellcannon and the CD follow now the Monsters & Handlers rule. The disadvantage of the loss of crew: a Hellcannon still Rampages. This is toned down though and goes like this: you make a Ld test, you pass, all is fine, you fail, you move 3D6" to the enemy. When the Dwarfs are alive, you test on their leadership of 9, when they are dead, you test on the Hellcannon's Ld of 4.


The book? Disappointing here and there, but the mortals got a lot stronger now for sure.

"Forsaken do NOT skirmish, and they're GARBAGE. d3+1 attacks(due to skirmish), and only have heavy armour. "

TheWarSmith, with all my respect, you meant D3+1 attacks due to frenzy, right?

Frankly
12-10-2008, 22:42
Low tier.
Lack of ranged threat means the enemy has no reason to advance.
Lack of viable support units means WoC is the easiest army to march block.
Those two combined mean that all the M4 infantry in the book is useless unless you are making a Marauder horde.

Total lack of synergy in the book. The whole thing functions about as well as a square wheel. Might be better than Tomb Kings and Ogres.

Games with and against them will be soooo boring. :(

Chaos: "I move my guys forward a bit"
Opponent: "I don't"


I want to agree with you S.Hammer, but I can see games playing out like you said.

When I put the book down an thought about thats the exact same feeling I had as well.

But, Like The warsmith said, we're most likely see hrosemen[and dogs] play a mush bigger role, I think as the delivery system or WoC's brutally insane heavy hitter units. Once you hit combat(and you got to remember most lists are build around the combat phase more than any other)that thats when all the joy begins ... all the smash face and gutting.

Well heres hoping anyway.

TheWarSmith
12-10-2008, 22:56
"Forsaken do NOT skirmish, and they're GARBAGE. d3+1 attacks(due to skirmish), and only have heavy armour. "

TheWarSmith, with all my respect, you meant D3+1 attacks due to frenzy, right?

haha, yeah, i meant frenzy. If you got +1A from skirmish, I'd go GO BEAST HERDS GO!!!!

SolarHammer
12-10-2008, 23:50
but I would think it suffers just like any normal stone thrower, so if it gets down to 1 crew, it can only fire every other turn.

It is not a stonethrower. It is a unit of monster and handlers. The death of the handlers has no impact on the monster. It can fire every turn and fire on the move.

Mireadur
13-10-2008, 00:00
It is not a stonethrower. It is a unit of monster and handlers. The death of the handlers has no impact on the monster. It can fire every turn and fire on the move.

Good to know, thanks both Solarhammer and Oldmaster.

Orcboy_Phil
13-10-2008, 00:50
With the new HoC comming out I'm actually abadoning Papa in favour of Khorne just because of the picture of Valka or whatever her name is. Busy converting her now. :D

neXus6
13-10-2008, 01:35
I'm a Khorne boy at heart already, but yeah the design behind that character is brilliant.
:D

TheWarSmith
13-10-2008, 01:38
One thing that I REALLY don't like is that there's NO restriction on what type of marked units can take which magic items/gifts.

So a non-Tzeentch caster can take the 3rd eye of tzeentch, etc.

SolarHammer
13-10-2008, 01:42
A Nurgle Sorceror with the Collar of Khorne, the Third Eye of Tzeentch and Pendant of Slaanesh doesn't appeal to you?

neXus6
13-10-2008, 01:50
I probably wouldn't do much of that sort of thing anyway but could be explained either by having it as another gods item with the same effect, the character taking it off a defeated foe, or possible the god trying to seduce the character away from their patron.

I admit though I would have had no problems with restrictions.

SolarHammer
13-10-2008, 01:52
Given the crappy selection of items already in the book? If they limited a given character to a quarter of that? I would be unhappy if I were to play WoC under those restrictions! Hell you can barely find a handful of good items on the list period. If you couldn't take one of the few that aren't a waste of points because of its name you should be upset.

TheWarSmith
13-10-2008, 01:58
It's just that chaos has seen a quick and sudden destruction of good background.

Voodoo Boyz
13-10-2008, 02:06
It's just that chaos has seen a quick and sudden destruction of good background.

Not to mention the vast majority of their useful magic items....:eek:

neXus6
13-10-2008, 02:12
Its okay WarSmith there are more than enough of us willing to keep the hatred for the gods we don't play alive.

A world where all the chaos gods live in peace and harmony...
NOT IN MY WARHAMMER!

Orcboy_Phil
13-10-2008, 02:13
Still looking forward to a Tzeentchian sorcerer with Fury of the Blood god. 3+ ward save and Magic resitance 2 :cheese:

SolarHammer
13-10-2008, 02:17
Versus spells only and can't take any other items...

Sounds daft to me.

Caine Mangakahia
13-10-2008, 05:23
Given the crappy selection of items already in the book? If they limited a given character to a quarter of that? I would be unhappy if I were to play WoC under those restrictions! Hell you can barely find a handful of good items on the list period. If you couldn't take one of the few that aren't a waste of points because of its name you should be upset.

I dont know, Armour of Damnation is pretty good as is the chaos Runeshield. The Crown of everlasting conquest is pretty good on a Chaos Lord Badass, especially with the new Chaos Gift Table.

SolarHammer
13-10-2008, 05:33
3 is less than a handful. The Runeshield will never get used and Armour of Damnation, while nice, is just too expensive to use. I'd say there are 5.

Axe of Khorne
Crown of Conquest
Black Tongue (maybe)
Collar of Khorne
Infernal Puppet

The rest are too expensive, or simply too weird in their effects to be of any real help. Chaos should have weapons that do damage and armours that protect. Not fu-fu stat lowering and strength tests and crap like that.

Latro
13-10-2008, 05:58
One thing that I REALLY don't like is that there's NO restriction on what type of marked units can take which magic items/gifts.


What ... didn't they tell you?

According to GW, the Chaos Gods are all friends now! They sit around the campfire at night, holding hands, singing songs and such ... even a grouphug now and then!


:eyebrows:

Eldramesha
13-10-2008, 06:00
Just because you can take something, doesn't mean you should.

SolarHammer
13-10-2008, 06:02
If it's any good you should take it. That's called a "smart decision."

KUMA
13-10-2008, 06:07
I don't understand why people cling on to old fluff for dear life.

That kind of thinking is counter-intuitive.....be able to adapt and integrate new information. This is what makes the human race so great.....and so horrible.

sephiroth87
13-10-2008, 06:13
Random thoughts:


I think every player will be using Wulfric. The ability to pop up on the back of the table, behind the opponents line, along with a ranked marauder unit toting flails or great weapons is ridiculously overpowered. And he's dirt cheap and a hero to boot. In short, I'd dare anyone in a tournament to camp on the edge of the table and shoot me, as a whole lot of hurt will pop up where it's not wanted...:p


The tzeentch special character is a little imp thing piggybacking on a chaos hero. It's one of the best pictures in the army book. I really hope they make a model for him.

The giant has a new feature against large targets where he can do d3 wounds and gain those wounds back, which is nice. I didn't see an armor save option like from the last edition. The shaggoth is ok, but nothing special. The shaggoth character is crazy, as his magic missile is just line of sight, no range.

Scyla is great as a rare, but a little overpriced. Archaeon is a little cheaper. Chaos hounds can get poison attacks...? The slaanesh special character is expensive, but a freaking beatstick. Marauder horsemen are ABSOLUTELY badass, as they can reroll any of their pursuit rolls. Regular marauders are even cheaper than normal, just one point more than a night goblin! I think their leadership dropped by a point, though.

Hellcannon is cheaper by about 50 or so points and rolls a leadership test every turn to not go crazy. The forsaken cost about as much as the chosen and get d3+1 attacks every turn. Chaos ogres can be marked, can get chaos armor. No shield options. Dragon ogres are just about as good as before. Trolls are a bit cheaper, I think. The troll character is great (he has double leadership of a troll) and lets you take monsters as core. And he's a hero level character. Chariots don't seem to be 2 for 1 like in the get you by list, but heros can take them as mounts like everybody else. The dragon takes up an extra hero slot and there's a manticore option.

Chaos knight lances cost as much as a basic orc, while they come with their magic, +1 swords for free. The basic chaos knight is nearly as good as the chosen of the last book.

Warriors get more attacks, chaos armor, but still have to pay for the danged shield. They can take a magic banner. Marauders don't seem to have the option, but can take marks just like the warriors. The slaanesh mark is really cheap. The others are nearly a boarboy more expensive.

The slaanesh lore is pretty similar, except that the number one spell does strength 3 hits, more range, and stops a unit if they take a wound. They seem to have removed the number 6 slaanesh spell, too, although I can't remember what replaced it. The sorcerer marks are fairly inexpensive, especially the slaanesh mark (a basic orc). The big tzeentch spell is nice, but a 15 to cast is tough, even for a sorcerer lord.

Latro
13-10-2008, 06:15
I don't understand why people cling on to old fluff for dear life.

That kind of thinking is counter-intuitive.....be able to adapt and integrate new information. This is what makes the human race so great.....and so horrible.

... trying to re-write history is not something I would cheer for. It's also a big insult to the people who have written the background stories so far.


:cool:

Grimtuff
13-10-2008, 09:27
Forsaken do NOT skirmish, and they're GARBAGE. d3+1 attacks(due to skirmish), and only have heavy armour.


Curses. I could've sworn they did. :(

Were I to take them then it would never be in a unit over 6 (or maybe 7) strong. "Yay i've got a rank bonus when each of the models in the back has 4 attacks this round!" :rolleyes:

SuperArchMegalon
13-10-2008, 10:23
Excuse me, but what is the deal with Khorne Marauder Horsemen with Flails? 105 points for 20 attacks, 10 at WS4 S5? ItP? Isn't that the sort of thing that typically breaks infantry... on the front? Oh but they're fast cavalry, it's even easier! High movement makes them dangerous to flee from.

Jeez, 3 of my Ogre Bulls costs 105 points, I'm getting gypped!

Kerill
13-10-2008, 10:36
I have the book, played a couple of games and my opinions on it in general are:

Characters and Magic Items

1) The magic items are worse than the ones in the old hordes of chaos book (no true ward save, no cheap 4+ ward, AOD going up in price, power familiar is worse, book of secrets is worse). The chaos gifts are ok but only a couple are useful and none of them are OMG!!! - In general the magic item selection is lacklustre with no really great choices. If every army books magic item selection was like this warhammer would be a better game, sadly it's not as most armies have some tremendously useful items, chaos don't.
2) Chaos lords are still too expensive and although exalteds are now a little bit more expensive they are still well worth the points (and can now carry the bsb).
3) The extra attack on sorcerers is a nice bonus, as the fact that they can now take a magic shield.
4) EOTG for characters is mostly useless and is more of a drawback than an advantage.
5) The DP can't join units and is still expensive, not a competitive option but not as sadly nerfed as the Daemon one. Also only Ld8 which is a shame.
6) The chaos gifts are far less useful than the daemon ones and none of them are undercosted for what they do.
7) All the marks now have their uses (although some are better than others) which is IMO a good thing.
8) The loss of Tzeentch fighter-sorcerers is a real shame for Tzeentch lists, sorcerers can be made to be almost as good in combat but will cost more due to having to buy magic weapons/items to boost them, they will also lack the equipment options.
9) The lores are more powerful than before and all three are viable.
10) While there are some items that combo together such combos are either very expensive or very situational and more for fun than for real power.
Overall I would say that the character selection is worse than before, especially for Tzeentch (and Tzeentch has also suffered most in the magic items department).
11) The special characters vary in usefulness but none of them are must-takes. The most powerful is probably festus but he is still not THAT good.

Units

The troops that we have kept are now better than before:
First the re-roll for panic is very useful all round.
Marauders being cheaper and with 1 point GWs is very good, marking is handy making marauders a definite winner this edition.
Chaos hounds ( a great unit) are as useful as ever.
Marauder horsemen are great and they now have a few more options which is nice.
Chaos warriors at a minimum of 16 points each are still definitely overcosted, although their cheap weapon options slightly makes up for this. Generally still a fluff choice rather than a WAAC choice. The rapturous standard helps them somewhat.
Knights are cheaper than before and cause fear- a good unit made even better.
Chaos Ogres are definitely less useful than minotaurs were and using DOW Ironguts as a rare choice is probably a better idea.
Dragon Ogres are only 2 points cheaper than before and probably a little too expensive when compared to the other options. Still it isn't a big deal and they certainly still have a role to fulfill on the battlefield.
Hellcannon- much worse than before with a very small points drop, not worth the points at all.
Shaggoth- Still too expensive and missing a special rule (stubborn/hatred) to make it viable. Another fluff/like the model choice. Really sucks compared to varghulfs and hydras especially (although hydras are undercosted so its a bit of a moot comparison).
Chaos Chariot- 2 more crew attacks than before is nice and you get the chariot with a 20 point discount as a character mount. Still too expensive vs. the risk of enemy cannons and S7 bolthrowers though.
Spawn- cheaper than before by 5 points (good) although the new mark options are too expensive and less useful/interesting than before.
Forsaken- Generally crap, their role can be done better by ogres which are also a lot more durable. Cool idea, bad execution.
Chosen- as with warriors too expensive, the champions magic item allowance isn;t particularly useful due to a lack of decent items, +2 points for +1Ws and a roll on the EOTG table isn't a deal by any means. Again a fluff choice.
Warshrine- Not used it yet, looks far too expensive for what it does in any battle short of 3000 points.

Overall though the army core units are better than before, and some are much better.

What was lost in the division of chaos
Several things in particular will be missed:
1) Cheap beastman characters (especially Tzeentch marked characters) to add punch on a budget.
2) The loss of fast skirmishing beast herds is a massive loss IMO, no skirmishers at all.
3) The loss of cheap punchy chariots (Tuskgor chariots), chaos warrior chariots are still too expensive.
4) The lose of flying units for taking out war machines and a hundred other uses.
5) Minotaurs S6, Ws4 and 3D6" pursuit was very nice to have.

Overall I think the army is probably slightly weaker than before at the 2000 point level than a mortal heavy HOC army, but as the point level goes up (2250-2500 line) points its about the same as before. Above that level (3000 point and up) it's probably a little better than before due to some the troops getting better and the panic re-roll. It's not a top tier army by any means and sits comfortably above O&G, Ogres, and TK on a level with empire and dwarves and a little below brets and wood elves. It seems to lack any real tournament power build but for normal play it's a perfectly competitive army. The most powerful build will probably be character light and from what I can see the bsb can also be the general so an army led by an exalted general/bsb with a scroll caddy and lots of troops will probably be the most "powerful" build although WAAC players will be sticking to VC/Daemons/Dark Elves.

Overall I'm happy with the army and the book since it makes a change from thrashing people with daemons. It also lends a lie to the claims of 7th edition endless power creep since the last few books have been:
VC (powerful) Daemons (very powerful) Dark Elves (powerful) and now WOC (average) hopefully the average trend will continue so that 8th edition will only need to redress two armies being a bit too powerful for a nice balanced edition.

Losing marks this edition: Tzeentch and Khorne are now weaker than before (but certainly not to the point of being unplayable).

Anyway those are my opinions, feel free to disagree :)

@SuperArchMegalon

Your ogre bulls also cause impact hits, have armour piercing S4 and are a lot more resilient to ranged and magic missile attacks. Khorne horsemen are nice, don't get me worng, but 1 round of shooting from a 10 man elf archer or human/dward crossbow unit or a 2D6 S4 magic missile will shred them

superduperkoopatrooper
13-10-2008, 12:52
I'd disagree with you Solarhammer that games with WoC will be boring. Warhammer's most interesting phase is movement and if the chaos player is having to think hard about how not to get march blocked or baited etc. then there'll be a lot of thought involved in using them effectively. Likewise for their opponents, thought will have to be given as to how you redirect the super units of knights etc. and how you actually manoeuvre around the plentiful hound and horsemen units there'll probably be in order to march block and such.

Compare this to daemons where your plaguebearer blocks have no concern about where they get attacked from - they just win by default, flamers can just vapourise anybody within 18" in any direction, flesh hounds/bloodthirsters which can just blitz forwards with little concern about being charged or taking any damage from shooting or magic. Also everything is ITP so there's no flee baiting etc. it's all just totally functional and monotonous. (All of that may have been a little overexaggerated I know :D)

I think an army like WoC with distinct strengths and vulnerabilities will make for far more interesting games.

EvC
13-10-2008, 13:03
It's just that chaos has seen a quick and sudden destruction of good background.

We already had this discussion a week or so ago. Those of us who liked the old background were derided as whiners and lacking imagination. Be a fanboy, forget the past :D

Orcboy_Phil
13-10-2008, 13:09
Superdoopakoopatroopa, please don't turn this into a Deamon whine fest. :mad:

I'm really, really looking forward to WoC which I didn't expect to be. I thought I was going to get a nice new army rest period until Lizardmen came out. Chance to catch up on painting really. But no, they had to make awesome new models and put Dragon Ogres and shaggoths into the list. Bastards :(

Cartoon
13-10-2008, 14:46
I have the book, played a couple of games and my opinions on it in general are:



Thanks for this. It's disheartening to hear that the magic items are crap, and that there are a lot of useless units as well. After gutting our army, you would think some effort would be made to add in some useful and interesting units, but oh well. After reading the rumors section it became clear that WOC wouldn't be a tournament powerhouse and I can live with that. It's nice to hear that we do have some viable options.

I know I'm going to use warriors and chosen, along with some horsemen and knights. Thank you for taking the time to write up that review Kerill, I appreciate it. Still, I wish they would have added more support units, or at least let us keep furies in the list.

Kerill
13-10-2008, 16:04
@Cartoon You are welcome mate :). Some support units (like skirmishers) can be got through DOW and although spawn are alright I'm not too impressed at the other rare choices so you'll usually have a rare slot free. I think its also true that although some units are not that good they aren't the unutterable crap they were before (warriors) and are still usable enough.

In my chaos heart of hearts it would have been nice to have a couple of really nice gifts or items but at least some of them are ok and the lores are nice.

The loss of the other units (and the fluff) sucks big time, don't get me wrong but we have to wring the best we can out of this edition and hope for better in 4 years ;)

superduperkoopatrooper
13-10-2008, 16:08
Superdoopakoopatroopa, please don't turn this into a Deamon whine fest. :mad:



Hey, I was just whining, it's not a fest until other people join in :p

In my defense, I was just using daemons as an example to put a positive spin on how WoC are looking :angel:

Crispian25
13-10-2008, 16:45
I am totally stoked about bringing back my mortals, however, i remain upset about one thing: no flyers/skirmishers. I'm probably going to have to challenge someone to a Legendary Battle so I can get my Furies and Beast Herds back. Mortals of Chaos just seems like they are either going to be Viking-esque (small, mobile units, hitting hard where they choose) or Roman Legion-eque (blocks of troops moving in a choreographed manner to bring the foe to battle, with small support units). Small point games won't really give people much opportunity to do both, especially with the high cost of some units.

Bear in mind, I have not played with the new rules yet, so I could be very wrong. This is just my opinion.

wizuriel
13-10-2008, 18:14
hey quick question with heroes, can they still ride chariots or is that only lords now?

cold0
13-10-2008, 18:29
All Chaos heroes, except Deamon Prince and the Scs, can ride chariots

Cypher, the Emperor
14-10-2008, 00:42
Whats the general opinion on the shrines?

They seem average at best to me, I might take one to test them out, but I like my Giant and Hellcannon too much to field them in anything but low point games (to save on points) or in really high point games (where I have the slots).

I also like the viking guy alot, I mean ALOT.

Popping up a unit of flail or GW marauders in the back of your opponents army seems awesome for taking out warmachines and the like.

but no better than flyers :cries:

Also: Are there any plans for a model for Trogg. He seems too cool not to get one.

txamil
14-10-2008, 01:15
Random thoughts:


I think every player will be using Wulfric. The ability to pop up on the back of the table, behind the opponents line, along with a ranked marauder unit toting flails or great weapons is ridiculously overpowered. And he's dirt cheap and a hero to boot.


He's a better beastman then a Beastlord. Maurader horde is going to be a really strong core for an army. Archaeon? No. Wulfric will be more feared across Warhammer tables everywhere.

Voodoo Boyz
14-10-2008, 01:41
Now that I've spent a day or so reading over the whole book, Kerill did a great job of summing it up just about everything I would have said on the army.

I think WoC players should look at the bright side, you won't have to go through the "New Army Syndrome" where everyone complains about your army being overpowered. ;)

Kalec
14-10-2008, 01:54
The book has some good points. Unfortunately,there are too many critical problems holding it back from being a truly competitive army. Sure, Wulfrik and his friends will cause problems, Sigvald will show those T3 pansies how to use ASF, and khornate horsemen with flails will hit harder then any cavalry unit of comparable price, but you only have two choices: hit fast and hard, or slow and hard. The slower elements are difficult to support with the faster ones, the enemy has no real incentive to take step forward, ever, and the generic characters are just underpowered for their price.

We are going to see lots and lots of marauders of both flavors, more then a few warhounds and knights, definitely some dragon ogres with great weapons, and trolls in an army including Throgg. Scyla will show up, but basic spawn will be rare, the alter won't see a whole lot of use, ogres and forsaken and chosen and warriors will all be overlooked.

Voodoo Boyz
14-10-2008, 02:16
This doesn't mean to say that the book absolutely sucks. There are a few good units, as you mentioned, but in general I don't see a real good army being made from them.

They can't quite do the "horde" style army where a viable "checkerboard" can be built ala Skaven, Maurauders just aren't that cheap.

They can do a mostly Cav force, but those kinds of armies rely on their hero's to pull a good amount of weight, and this list really doesn't bring that - and most of the really good heavy hitters are all special. The rare's essentially suck for that army. I think the warshrine is good for the infantry list though (as if many people will play that way).

The Trolls + Suneater list is cool, but still not that great.

I think that last phrase sums up the book in general - cool, but not that great.

herbie93
14-10-2008, 03:50
I'm gonna have to agree with just about everything that has been said. After reading the book the immediate problems were all to apparent.
Over abundance of sh!tty magic items/powers.
Lack of units with fly/skirmish or other movement methods.
And as a Khorne player for life, i'm extremely annoyed that my only magic defense is taking situational items that give some Magic Resistance, and taking wizards. Ridiculous in my mind, but i don't work for GW, i want my dispel dice :(

But please don't get me wrong here, i've found enough interesting things to try this army and not toss it in the trash, because it is a decent book in the end. It's just another example of GW's new "Chaos are all a big happy family and get along so use all the marks together" theory.

huh, first post

Ward.
14-10-2008, 04:34
the alter won't see a whole lot of use, ogres and forsaken and chosen and warriors will all be overlooked.

What makes you say that?

The Red Scourge
14-10-2008, 04:48
I was curious. How do they describe the realationship between the different cults? I.e. Khorne vs. Slaanesh and Nurgle vs. Tzeentch.

Kalec
14-10-2008, 05:02
What makes you say that?

Because none of them are very effective for their price. Chosen are just more expensive warriors, who are already very expensive, with a free roll on the EOTG table. Forsaken are just not very powerful in combat, surely not good enough to make up for random # of attacks and frenzy. Ogres are hurt by having just WS 3, and just being overall inferior to knights and dragon ogres. The alter is really only useful if your champs are good enough to win challenges and roll on the table. We have 4 champs capable of this, 2 of which are in units that move too fast to support the alter, and all of which are very pricey and in dire need of support. The alter helps make our units that are almost unstoppable in combat, maybe a little more unstoppable, and sucks points away from the units we need to ensure our "dead killy" troops actually reach combat.

It all comes down to support, and our general inability to support the slower elements. Cheap GW marauder blocks are better then warrior and chosen blocks because if the marauders don't make it, it doesn't matter very much. We can still have plenty of hard and fast hitters. If we are taking multiple blocks of warriors/chosen, we won't have the points to properly support them and take sufficient mobile elements. Leaving marauders out on a limb doesn't hurt us much, leaving warriors out on a limb does.

logan054
14-10-2008, 10:01
Best part was a 105 point unit of Khornate marauder horsemen. 10 S5 flail attacks and 10 S3 horse attacks, all for just a pathetic 105 points.

What your forgetting is that they are only T3 and are going to get blasted to bits, frenzy is never a good idea on light cavalry.


Marauders are great now, being very low cost, and having access to great weapons, flails, and marks.

Cant agree more, im just glad i still have my 5th ed marauders with great weapons :)


Warriors are sick. They are basically the chosen of old(+1A and chaos armour), and chosen are a little bit better, getting a free eye of the gods roll at the beginning of the game w/ guaranteed good results.

Both units are still very expensive, they are certainly better than they used to be, i think chosen costing 19/20pts a model is a huge waste, people are just going to take marauder horsemen over these guys.


Giants are neat, being able to take marks(ASF giant anybody?)

Did you not notice they cost 20pts more than they used to (before marks) and only have a very slightly altered chart vs bigger guys.


Shaggoths took a hit on their armour save(no more heavy armour), but gained a point of strength

So basically its still a massive amount of points to invest in a single model.


Hellcannons are massively simplified, no longer take up 2 rares, no gifts, and FUN misfire chart(all wizards auto miscast, hehe).

I did like the misfire chart :) still the hellcannon wasnt the only thing that was massively simplified :(


MARKS
I personally think Tzeentch took a bit of a hit here. 6+ ward save(or +1 to existing ward save). Just doesn't seem as characterful as it used to be. Although their casters do get +1 to cast, but now you mark wizards and wizard lords instead of marking a combat character and turning them into a wizard.

How was warriors/knights/chariots being batteries for wizards exactly characterful? i actually like the 6+ ward save seems rather nice, nothing amazing.


Slaanesh is now just immune to fear, terror, and panic, so they can now run

Yeah this is rather nice, i think you forgot to mention when talking about marks the complete removal the mixing system, i think i personally slapping a nurgle wizard in a tzeentch unit of knights is just plain wrong.


For those of you wondering if the Daemon prince would be better in this book than the daemons one, the answer is a STRAIGHT up YES. This one causes terror, can be a lvl 4 caster of any god, and isn't immune to psych.

what your forgetting is that unlike the older book daemon prince could have things like reroll misses, KB, extra strength, armour and so on, thats all gone now, so really it debatable as to if the daemon prince is actually better.


One magic item combo that looks awesome.
1 use only. Turn any unsuccessful enemy spellcasting into a miscast.

2nd item
Anytime an enemy(and maybe friendly?) wizard suffers a miscast, you can alter the miscast roll by d3 points on the table.

Combine the 2nd one w/ the tzeentch spell that remains in play and makes all doubles miscast for the enemy.

Yes, thats one of many silly combos, did you know with a magic standard on a unit of nurgle warriors + exalted of nurgle on any form daemonic mount you can actually cause about 6 T tests every on of your magic phases (no save), at in curse of the leper and you going to see a unit fall apart in short order.

Another great one of the glaive of purification and curse of the leper and you can kill a whole unit in a turn (needs a character in the unit).

Ward.
14-10-2008, 12:37
Because none of them are very effective for their price. Chosen are just more expensive warriors, who are already very expensive, with a free roll on the EOTG table. Forsaken are just not very powerful in combat, surely not good enough to make up for random # of attacks and frenzy. Ogres are hurt by having just WS 3, and just being overall inferior to knights and dragon ogres. The alter is really only useful if your champs are good enough to win challenges and roll on the table. We have 4 champs capable of this, 2 of which are in units that move too fast to support the alter, and all of which are very pricey and in dire need of support. The alter helps make our units that are almost unstoppable in combat, maybe a little more unstoppable, and sucks points away from the units we need to ensure our "dead killy" troops actually reach combat.

It all comes down to support, and our general inability to support the slower elements. Cheap GW marauder blocks are better then warrior and chosen blocks because if the marauders don't make it, it doesn't matter very much. We can still have plenty of hard and fast hitters. If we are taking multiple blocks of warriors/chosen, we won't have the points to properly support them and take sufficient mobile elements. Leaving marauders out on a limb doesn't hurt us much, leaving warriors out on a limb does.

So a 2000 Pts army of say 3-4 warrior blocks screened with cheap hounds and marauder units, knights and chosen sitting in the sidelines while 2 warshrines throw blessings left right and center doesn't seem competitive?

Psy-Crow
14-10-2008, 12:41
I love the idea of a sorcerer lord with lore of shadows and distendable maw.
You have 28" of movement in one single phase to attack a charakter behind the enemies lines and swallow him in whole... needs some luck but imagine what it would look like... ;) will try it as soon as possible!

Frankly
14-10-2008, 12:54
What your forgetting is that they are only T3 and are going to get blasted to bits, frenzy is never a good idea on light cavalry.


Interesting unit for its points value though, it just has to soak up and of route a unit of H.gunners to nearly make to points back. It'll make an opponent think alot about target if theres a few of these threats coming quickly cross the table.

I'm interested in how the unit plays out.

One of my regular gaming opponents is going to run a lot of there types of units(he's khorne cavalry mad). Most likely knowing him with alot of dogs blocking LOS etc, etc.

Opponents are going to having to making a pretty quicks choice to what they're going to target with their ranges weapons; Meat shield dogs, horsemen, knights.

Just pondering on the subject really, since I'll be facing it in the not to distant future.

Anyone had a game or two with the new book?

EvC
14-10-2008, 13:49
Yes- battle report on the way ;)

IronNerd
14-10-2008, 14:18
So a 2000 Pts army of say 3-4 warrior blocks screened with cheap hounds and marauder units, knights and chosen sitting in the sidelines while 2 warshrines throw blessings left right and center doesn't seem competitive?

I'm not really sure you've looked at the points for this... maybe if you take everything as cheap as possible... I made a list with 3 blocks of warriors, one unit of knights, 3 units of hounds. No shrines, no chosen, no marauders. Warriors add up FAST. It makes me sad, because I really want a warrior-centric army, but they are just so expensive, I don't see it working.

Mireadur
14-10-2008, 18:59
the army will have very few miniatures indeed if you go the warrior way.

W0lf
14-10-2008, 21:02
So a 2000 Pts army of say 3-4 warrior blocks screened with cheap hounds and marauder units, knights and chosen sitting in the sidelines while 2 warshrines throw blessings left right and center doesn't seem competitive?

yes that sounds amazing at 2K. Probably because its more like 3K.

Oh wait no it still dosnt sound good...

ill just march block ur M4 infantry with a unit of flyers and shoot the crap out of them or just flank them with a cavalary unit. I dont care if your warriors have 10 S 10 attacks a model.. when they get to decare one charge in a game and a unit half their cost flees only to rally then theve done nothing exept likely give up half victory points.

Warriors are still overcosted when you consider there movement and the context of the armies support. Sure add warmachines and handgunners to the list and they are well worth it, but with no incentive for your opponent to engage your expensive blocks your ganna get no where.

Oh and thats not to say that a unit of plaguebearers will laugh at warriors.

Ward.
14-10-2008, 22:59
I'm not really sure you've looked at the points for this... maybe if you take everything as cheap as possible... I made a list with 3 blocks of warriors, one unit of knights, 3 units of hounds. No shrines, no chosen, no marauders. Warriors add up FAST. It makes me sad, because I really want a warrior-centric army, but they are just so expensive, I don't see it working.
I think I shot myself in the foot with trying for 2000 pts, but 2250 could very well look like this:

Chaos lord with halberd and shield 238, bsb exalted with gear 144, scroll caddy 135.

18 warriors 318
full command
halberd, shields, FC

2 X12 warriors 480
halberd, shield, FC

3X5 warhounds 090
2X5 horsemen 130

2 X 20 maraurders 240
-shields

5X chosen 150
great weapons, FC

2 X warshrine 260


yes that sounds amazing at 2K. Probably because its more like 3K.

Oh wait no it still dosnt sound good...

ill just march block ur M4 infantry with a unit of flyers and shoot the crap out of them or just flank them with a cavalary unit. I dont care if your warriors have 10 S 10 attacks a model.. when they get to decare one charge in a game and a unit half their cost flees only to rally then theve done nothing exept likely give up half victory points.

Warriors are still overcosted when you consider there movement and the context of the armies support. Sure add warmachines and handgunners to the list and they are well worth it, but with no incentive for your opponent to engage your expensive blocks your ganna get no where.

Oh and that's not to say that a unit of plaguebearers will laugh at warriors.

Few things don't get laughed at by plague bearers and all of those problems you listed plague all infantry lists. Also I really don't see it playing out the way you described it.

SolarHammer
14-10-2008, 23:03
I think that is a very poor army. :eyebrows:

Frankly
14-10-2008, 23:08
Man, thats a small list to try to walk across the table top.

Kalec
14-10-2008, 23:22
I think I shot myself in the foot with trying for 2000 pts, but 2250 could very well look like this:

Chaos lord with halberd and shield 238, bsb exalted with gear 144, scroll caddy 135.

18 warriors 318
full command
halberd, shields, FC

2 X12 warriors 480
halberd, shield, FC

3X5 warhounds 090
2X5 horsemen 130

2 X 20 maraurders 240
-shields

5X chosen 150
great weapons, FC

2 X warshrine 260

What happened to the knights and second unit of chosen? Those would have helped out a lot (especially the knights).

Really, this list just proves my point. Your mobile units get shredded by any shooting, are unable to threaten the enemy in any way, and your combat blocks are still too slow. You have two big marauder blocks that pack no punch at all (they fight like swordsmen!). Not to mention, those chosen are very, very small and expensive for T4 4+ AS 1 wound infantry. Your characters are nothing amazing (that lord is pretty vulnerable, after all).

Who, exactly, do you think this list could beat?

OldMaster
14-10-2008, 23:30
I find it strange that people see Wardancers as perfectly fine for their cost, but Chosen.... never =|

Ward.
14-10-2008, 23:44
What happened to the knights and second unit of chosen? Those would have helped out a lot (especially the knights).

Really, this list just proves my point. Your mobile units get shredded by any shooting, are unable to threaten the enemy in any way, and your combat blocks are still too slow. You have two big marauder blocks that pack no punch at all (they fight like swordsmen!). Not to mention, those chosen are very, very small and expensive for T4 4+ AS 1 wound infantry. Your characters are nothing amazing (that lord is pretty vulnerable, after all).
I don't think they need to be amazing, they are wrapped in a unit of warriors. The marauders aren't for fighting, they're for holding things up,anchoring a flank and giving the horsemen cover to retreat (there's enough points to give them light armor, full command, great weapons and a ward save to the heroes actually but I would be too eager to use them offenssively and this was a rough draft).



Who, exactly, do you think this list could beat?
My skaven list but it was designed to be usable and make use of the eye of the gods table and the fact that 6 warriors can put out 13 WS5 S5 attacks with a huge initiative, there was a time when that was something only Calvary did.

SolarHammer
14-10-2008, 23:57
I find it strange that people see Wardancers as perfectly fine for their cost, but Chosen.... never =|

Wardancers skirmish and can choose the tool for the job.

Chosen are just fanciful, expensive Warriors and don't bring anything to the table that Marauders can't do more efficiently (stumble up the table getting shot at).

PARTYCHICORITA
15-10-2008, 00:17
Low tier.
Lack of ranged threat means the enemy has no reason to advance.
Lack of viable support units means WoC is the easiest army to march block.
Those two combined mean that all the M4 infantry in the book is useless unless you are making a Marauder horde.


I dissagree, horsemen are a great unit for core and the hounds are better than ever since the whole army gets to reroll panic know. Also spaws are IMO very good at preventing march blocking and the 2d6Mvm should allow them to move at the same speed as the rest of the army.

On the combo department i can see an army with 2 hellcannons and a BSB with -1Ld if you have LoS as something that can be a real pain to armies not ItP. Panic with -2Ld is a bitch

The army is by no means as powerfull as DoC or VC but it still has it's good points and if those that played chaos before can still have a good time playing it since the book is overall better.

Sad to see the crappy items/gifts though. And both forsaken and chosen are pretty much a waste as well. I guess all books must have their Lothern seaguard.

Havock
15-10-2008, 01:15
So if you hit and wound the STank with the glaive of wutsit, the STank becomes a S2/T2 barrel?

It'll happen once in a while but if something is funny... :D

kramplarv
15-10-2008, 09:13
but WoC has something which makes it very powerful. A Dragon.
with some cool tooling you have a dragonlord with 4+ wardsave against shooting, and he can never take more than one wound from multiwoundweapons.

and when he charges into combat he is wearing some amulet forcing enemy to take a T-test if they are in BtB with him. very useful indeed.

or a flying lvl4 wizard of tzeentch with +2 to cast and 4+wrdsave and the same armor (dargan) as mentioned before.

Overall, the WoC are about as good as the old HoC, if not worse...But with a dragon you are always in a good position to win a game :)

Frankly
15-10-2008, 09:17
I find it strange that people see Wardancers as perfectly fine for their cost, but Chosen.... never =|


Wardancers are flexible in combat(dances)and have mobility, in the context of a WE list they are a perfect mopping up unit after good magic and shooting phases.

I think chosen are pretty good, rolling of that god table thingy before the game is pretty awesome imho.

logan054
16-10-2008, 10:14
I find it strange that people see Wardancers as perfectly fine for their cost, but Chosen.... never =|

thats kinda like comparing chalk and cheese, chosen warriors are a totally different unit.

Havock
16-10-2008, 11:21
Kholek seems like he's fun to use. Hits like a ton of bricks and is a perfect way to deal with the bigger stuff. With his stats... He'll probably take down an OK army by himself :p

bork da basher
16-10-2008, 11:49
the WoC book has obvious flaws which will proberly make it stand apart from tier 1 armies like daemons or VC etc but i dont think its nerfed or a weak list. i intend to play them and i intend to make them as competative as possible building it around an all mounted heavy magic tzeentch theme. no god mixing no magic item fluff abuse (anyone who uses a tzeentch sorcerer with an axe of khorne needs shooting) just all tzeentch, all mounted and loads of fun.

the main reason im buying yet another choas army is the absolutly amzing knight and horsemen minis which look exactly how i always wanted chaos to look. the AB is secondary as i'll find a way to do well with it regardless.

Zoolander
16-10-2008, 20:57
@ Grimtuff - Quote thief!!!! :cool: