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BEEGfrog
12-10-2008, 15:38
When does a character have 360 degree vision?

Skirmishers have 360 degree vision, so characters do so while in a skirmishing unit, but the character rules say that they move like skirmishers not see like them, so what happens when they aren't in a unit?. The standard vision rules say 90 degree forward arc, are there other references I can't find (I am worried about the general case rather than special characters).

So when do characters have 360 degree vision and when 90 degree?

Devon Harmon
12-10-2008, 16:18
I'm just guessing here, but perhaps this is clarified on page 269 of the BRB?

BEEGfrog
12-10-2008, 16:51
It doesn't clarify it, but it does give the actual rule! At least for charges, the "etc." after the phrase on charging is confusing, does it extend the vision rules to 360 for everything or the movement rules.

The rule in the front part of the book only mentions moving as a skirmisher, so charging in a 360 degree arc is reasonable as a charge is a move. What about shooting? Shooting isn't mentioned in the front (at least where I can find it - excepting skirmishers fast cavalry etc. special rules) and the "etc." in the back is in a paragraph about moving.

Thanks for clearing up one part of it, does anyone else have the answer for shooting/magic?

Helveticus
12-10-2008, 16:55
I don't have my new Rule book with me, but in the previous one.. 6th instead of 7th or whatever we're on now, characters on foot had 360 vision (unless they were in a ranked up unit, in which case the unit provided the vision, not the character). As soon as they mounted up, they ended up with facings.

DeathlessDraich
12-10-2008, 17:43
When he has eyes at the back of his head as well? :p

It will depend on the type of character. Strangely enough Monstrous characters even with 2 heads cannot see backwards! :D

Hammerhelden
13-10-2008, 00:22
Beegfrog is having the same issue with the rules I have been actually, I'd love if anyone had some form of clarification for this. I'd assume that by themselves a character would have separate vision arcs in th same way as a single monster, but that line about moves as a skirmisher still sort of confuses me, unless it only refers to the fact that lone characters can move through difficult terrain without penalty.

BEEGfrog
13-10-2008, 03:34
I have checked the wording in 6th edition and it is starting to look like a change in the rules and lone characters only have a 90 arc of LOS for shooting but a 360 arc for charging...

Compare pg 95 of 6th ed with pg 72 of 7th ed.

narrativium
13-10-2008, 07:07
Sure. They still have a flank and rear for purposes of being charged and using shields.

Lordsaradain
13-10-2008, 07:10
what about magic?

theunwantedbeing
13-10-2008, 07:13
They get a 360 degree line of sight when they are a skirmisher, or have a special rule stating they have a 360 degree line of sight (grey seer on screaming bell for example).

At all other times they move as a monster, so get a 90 degree arc of sight.

This arc of sight is used for shooting, magic and charge declaration purposes.

narrativium
13-10-2008, 10:47
I've just been reading my Big Red Book (rather than my BfSP one). Characters get 360-degree LOS for charging. For shooting and magic they have only a 90-degree arc.

They also don't count as having a flank or rear except in combat... Does this mean that a unit which begins the turn in their front arc can manouvre to hit them in the flank or rear, since the flank/rear doesn't exist until they hit?

Gazak Blacktoof
13-10-2008, 10:58
I may be confusing what exists now with the rules for previous editions so I wont be shocked if somebody corrects me.

+++++++

The character will align to the charger so you can perform a tactical wheel. However because they don't have a flank or rear they turn to face the first unit to engage them. A second unit could hit them in the rear or flank now that they have one. This is the same as when you charge skirmishers.

mattjgilbert
13-10-2008, 11:00
For shooting and magic, single models moving as skirmishers have a 360 degree LOS. You can deduce this by taking the rules from pages 269 and 65 together. 269 says they Move as Skirmishers but then also says they have a 360 degree arc of sight. The skirmishers section doesn't mention anything in the "Moving" section about this but has it in the Formation/Facing section (which applies to all skirmishers).

So it's not explicitly called out, but it is implied.

BEEGfrog
13-10-2008, 18:10
For shooting and magic, single models moving as skirmishers have a 360 degree LOS. You can deduce this by taking the rules from pages 269 and 65 together. 269 says they Move as Skirmishers but then also says they have a 360 degree arc of sight. The skirmishers section doesn't mention anything in the "Moving" section about this but has it in the Formation/Facing section (which applies to all skirmishers).

So it's not explicitly called out, but it is implied.

No, 360 degree vision isn't implied, especially with the change of wording from 6-95 to 7-72, i.e. I think it implies that GW made a mistake not that the rules imply 360 degree vision.

In the Formation/Facing section you cited, the explanation of why skirmishers get 360 degree vision would also apply to characters that move as skirmishers.

This seems to be a GW mistake that needs an errata published. In re-writing the rules they have managed to produce RAW that says characters only have 90 degree vision while possibly intending them to see as well as move as skirmishers.

I will probably add the (probably intended by GW) 360 degree vision to my list of debatable/house rules to be agreed before battles.

My belief in the best interpretation has flipped a couple of times in this debate!

DeathlessDraich
13-10-2008, 18:18
The reason why 360 was omitted for 7th ed is because it is explained elsewhere for characters, and in fact for all models.
- Chapter 1 explains that a stipulated 360 arc of sight, applies for shooting (and hence magic) *and* charging.

BEEGfrog
14-10-2008, 04:18
The reason why 360 was omitted for 7th ed is because it is explained elsewhere for characters, and in fact for all models.
- Chapter 1 explains that a stipulated 360 arc of sight, applies for shooting (and hence magic) *and* charging.

I would like to see at least a page number cite for this, the entry on pg 8 is very clear the arc for shooting for all models in general is 90 degrees.

I would also like a cite for where the book has chapter numbers, my book doesn't appear to have them.

I know I am not right about a lot of stuff in the rules because I have missed stuff or I am an edition or 2 behind. However, I do change my mind if presented with a good explanation supported by evidence. You can't proove a point without proof, so cite your evidence.

DeathlessDraich
14-10-2008, 09:11
You can't proove a point without proof, so cite your evidence.

Sorry, but 'proving a point' or 'winning an argument' is not the reason why I'm here and are unworthy considerations.

You have quoted the relevant pages - 8 and 269. Interpret it as you will.:D