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General Squeek Squeek
13-10-2008, 02:59
I play a hordey skaven army the other day and got pretty thouroghly trounced by a DE player. his main blocks, assasins, coldones, and heroes were all easy to deal with, but the 2 hydras march straight my way broke my army?

Is there some weakness to exploit that I don't see or some tactic that people use in taking these powerhouses down???

Lord Dan
13-10-2008, 03:11
With the new rules for regeneration I find many players forgetting that regen isn't a real ward save, as often they forget it can be ignored by flaming attacks. For instance, I saw one game where a DE player let the 2D6 S4 fireball attack go through, confident his 4+ "save" would stop the attacks. The wizard, admittedly, rolled quite well, with 10 attacks going through. It was right before he rolled to wound that the DE player remembered he got no regeneration from flaming attacks.

Pop.

So I guess my advice would be...Warpfire throwers?

General Squeek Squeek
13-10-2008, 03:31
the problem with the warpfire thrower is that its extremely unreliable. 1/6 chance it will blow up every time it shoots. In addition most likely I'll only get a partial meaning 1/2 will hit it and then 1/2 will wound it. Even with d3 wounds it will take on average 3 successful hits to bring it down. This will of course mean on average 9 shots so even with 3 warpfire throwers your looking at 3 rounds assuming you don't run away from terror. Oh and these 3 warpfire throwers will cost 50pts more and die to the most basic of shooting.

Ward.
13-10-2008, 03:38
Use jezzials (I always mispell it).

Lord Dan
13-10-2008, 03:50
Yeah, I agree. Enough high-velocity rounds of pure warpstone will inevitably bring it down.

SolarHammer
13-10-2008, 05:48
Warp Lightning supplied by a Cannon, Engineer or Grey Seer is also helpful. Warpstone Stars would work nicely, Globadiers could do the trick. Hell, poisoned throwing stars on a unit of Gutter Runners could deal with that threat in a couple turns rather efficiently.

There's always the Fellblade for all your large monster killing needs.

Of course failing all that there's still the old bait and switch flee and flank. Skaven certainly have the numbers to do it. Just bring them to bear at the right time and run those monster handling savages down with a righteous pursuit.

Urgat
13-10-2008, 09:32
the problem with the warpfire thrower is that its extremely unreliable. 1/6 chance it will blow up every time it shoots. In addition most likely I'll only get a partial meaning 1/2 will hit it and then 1/2 will wound it. Even with d3 wounds it will take on average 3 successful hits to bring it down. This will of course mean on average 9 shots so even with 3 warpfire throwers your looking at 3 rounds assuming you don't run away from terror. Oh and these 3 warpfire throwers will cost 50pts more and die to the most basic of shooting.


Still, they're fun. You should at least try them :)

warlord hack'a
13-10-2008, 09:38
hydras are far too cheap for what they can do, but they are not unkillable. Just shoot the beasts to bits with all you've got, and put some nice cheap redirecters in front of it when they get too close..

theunwantedbeing
13-10-2008, 09:47
Plague censor bearers, charge them. Put them out of position with some slaves or something, then run into them with the censor bearer's.
You'll fairly easily cripple the handlers and plague censors stand a reasonable chance of dealing the big lizard some real damage (2st5 attacks each afterall).

Jezzails actually work rather well, mainly as if your opponent has 2 hydra's, he wont have bolt throwers to remove your jezzails.
Plus as it's a large target, regen or not....it'll take damage from them.

Put it out of position by baiting it though is generally the best option.
Then flank it for all your worth with something.
Stormvermin actually work as they'll get a useful save against the thing when using hand weapons and sheilds (5+) which makes them fairly resiliant.

crazywhiteboydance
13-10-2008, 10:21
I played against a DE beast army recently using my Skaven. I managed to eat both Hydras with Plague Censers. YUM!

Kalec
14-10-2008, 03:37
The trick is to just keep hitting it. The regen is the only real save it has, and we all know how easy it is to fail a 4+ save of any kind. Fire makes it easier, but is hardly necessary.

aimbob
14-10-2008, 07:22
the problem with the warpfire thrower is that its extremely unreliable. 1/6 chance it will blow up every time it shoots. .

Are you a real Skaven player? XD Risk all or risk nothing. Skavens are not known for their reliability.

Shamfrit
14-10-2008, 11:50
Chuck an LD10 slave block or two at it, that'll hold them up :D

Ward.
14-10-2008, 12:30
Chuck an LD10 slave block or two at it, that'll hold them up :D

Unless the hydra(s) burninates them first. :(

I had a second think on this last night and what do people think of an assassin with the S5 stars of D3 wounds.

Frankly
14-10-2008, 13:14
Use jezzials (I always mispell it).


Are they flaming attacks.

ohhhh ... its been so long since I've played a rats armylist.

Urgat
14-10-2008, 13:34
Nope, they're not. Dunno about jezzails really, sure, against an hydra, they'd be pretty efficient, but against two? You need to take as many as you can, then...

bork da basher
14-10-2008, 13:48
warplightning spells from warlocks n grey seers will fry it, jezzails will need a helluva lot of impacts to bring it down. warpfire throwers might do a few wounds. warplightning cannons are your best bet. if you manage to roll high enough Strength to wound it D6 wounds will dent it significantly all being well, a few jezzails should finish the job.

Darkspear
14-10-2008, 15:03
actually i would expect a well executed knights charge to beat off a hydra, you can still kill the handlers due to a wide frontage.

In the case of skaven, well you have your magic! Jezzails are also anoter weapon that no one has mentioned yet.

Urgat
14-10-2008, 17:19
Actually, you just didn't read the topic, jezzails have been mentioned a few times already, but nevermind.

SolarHammer
14-10-2008, 21:35
actually i would expect a well executed knights charge to beat off a hydra, you can still kill the handlers due to a wide frontage.

In the case of skaven, well you have your magic! Jezzails are also anoter weapon that no one has mentioned yet.

Are you being sarcastic? Or are you blind? :eyebrows:


Use jezzials (I always mispell it).


Yeah, I agree. Enough high-velocity rounds of pure warpstone will inevitably bring it down.


Jezzails actually work rather well, mainly as if your opponent has 2 hydra's, he wont have bolt throwers to remove your jezzails.
Plus as it's a large target, regen or not....it'll take damage from them.


Nope, they're not. Dunno about jezzails really, sure, against an hydra, they'd be pretty efficient, but against two? You need to take as many as you can, then...


jezzails will need a helluva lot of impacts to bring it down.

Shamfrit
14-10-2008, 21:38
Bloodthirster with Firestorm Blade = Dead Hydra

SolarHammer
14-10-2008, 21:39
Can Skaven take those now?! :eek:

Ward.
14-10-2008, 22:12
Are they flaming attacks.

ohhhh ... its been so long since I've played a rats armylist.

No, but hydra's are large targets and with a jezzials range you should get 2-3+ turns of shooting.

Frankly
14-10-2008, 23:16
awwww ok, thanks, theres just alot of 'etheral/regen' stuff around now, I thought that thats a brilliant way of killing two birds with one stone if they were fire attacks as well.

Thanks mate.

Thomus Darkblade
14-10-2008, 23:58
Warp lighting cannon is good because it's one of the few weapons in the game that can snipe the handlers. If you can get plague off on it, that might nab a handler too.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say "poison wind globadiers" A cool an underused unit. hitting on threes and wounding on 4s. Units of 6 or so could help take him down a notch

Mannfred
15-10-2008, 09:43
Why is it so hard i mean hey just get an assassin with the brass orb and yeah that hydra will be dead if not really really wounded...just lightning cannon the second one...jezzails will do it str6 flaming and armour piecring ignores all saves a hydra has...plus 3+ to wound

Urgat
15-10-2008, 11:39
jezzails are not flaming weapons.

EvC
15-10-2008, 12:01
So basically, Skaven have LOTS of options, mostly shooting. Also good for taking down Greater Daemons. Focus gire, you just need a couple of do them in. Occupy with Slaves in the meantime.

Benzan
15-10-2008, 12:24
I had some sucsess this weekend taking one down with a 25 block of plaguemonks (2xhw, FC) no char or nothing. Took 2 wounds from it with the WLC befor ofc. Then I just broke it with CR and ran it down, :D

ZeroTwentythree
15-10-2008, 16:05
If you're not set on actually killing them, you can distract them with 30 point giant rat packs or 40 point slave units. Hatred forces pursuit moves/overruns.

Ideally you charge them from stupid angles so they have to wander off away from the rest of your stuff, but getting the packs to make their fear/terror tests could be a problem. So you may just need to stick them out in the way.

Even if you prefer killing them, still do this to keep them wandering around while you shoot/magic them.

Oh, and I would like to suggest jezzails. I'm surprised no one has thought of that one yet. :angel:

Keep in mind, though, that at long range, you'll average about a wound per 4 jezzails, so you'll need quite a bit of shots & turns to bring down two of the beasties. Regarding the previous comment about no RBTs, that's true, but they will still have harpies, dark riders and spells like chill wind etc. and jezzails are very fragile in terms of both death and panic.

Urgat
15-10-2008, 18:01
Well, I got to say in those jezzail skaven's defense that almost everybody is kind of weak in terms of death :)
I, for instance, don't resist death all that well. When death happens I'd tend to be, well, dead, I suppose :D

'scurries away laughting like an idiot'

GuyLeCheval
16-10-2008, 15:18
Maybe considering about a unit of 20 night runners with slings?
Those 40 S3 shots can statistically take out the 3 beastmasters handling the Hydra. But about what I read, censer bearers are probably a beter choice, however, the night runners are a core coice and the censer bearers a special one. So, it's your choice...

DeathlessDraich
16-10-2008, 16:25
Beastmasters are sheltered from shooting - the Hydra absorbs these shots and will probably after saves etc, on average suffer 1 wound from 40 S3shots at BS4.

GuyLeCheval
16-10-2008, 17:13
That's a pity. That was my dirty trick against the hydra of my friend who I'm gonna play against to. It will cost a lot of time maneuvring that censer bearers to it. Maybe I'll just try 9+ warp lighting.

W0lf
16-10-2008, 21:12
'Maybe I'll just try 9+ warp lighting.'

Theres any other kind? :O

Skaven are one of the best armys for dealing with monsters.

Jezzails, warp lightning cannons and 2D6 S5 are all amazing for the job.

sandpeople
17-10-2008, 07:24
The big taking-down-2-hydras-with-skaven-suggestion-list:

1. Jezzails: shooting at a large target with high S value shots.
2. Poisoned wind globadiers: will always wound on 4+ and a small unit of lets say 2 can be used to march-block the hydra without causing panic if the die
3. Assassin with headsplitter: Will wound on 2+
4. Warlock engineer with warplightning and storm daemon or death globes
5. Plague censer bearers
6. Warp lightning cannon
7. Assasin with warpstone stars
8. Slaves used to distract the hydra and to make it pursue and expose its flank/rear to a fully ranked unit with banner and outnumbering.
9. The banner that makes the unt carrying it cause fear
10. A single rat ogre to used to distract the hydra and to make it pursue and expose its flank/rear to a fully ranked unit with banner and outnumbering.

There are a lot of options!

DeathlessDraich
17-10-2008, 11:32
Good list sandpeople.
I don't think (9) will automatically ensure a slain Hydra though.

In order of approx effectiveness and/or ease in carrying out:

1. Jezzails: shooting at a large target with high S value shots.
2. Assassin with headsplitter: Will wound on 2+
3. Poisoned wind globadiers (several): will always wound on 4+
4. Warp lightning cannon
5. Warlock engineer with warplightning and storm daemon or death globes
6. Assasin with warpstone stars
7. Plague censer bearers
8. Slaves used to distract the hydra and to make it pursue and expose its flank/rear to a fully ranked unit with banner and outnumbering.
9. A single rat ogre to used to distract the hydra and to make it pursue and expose its flank/rear to a fully ranked unit with banner and outnumbering.

(8) and (9) - the Hydra has 7 S5 attacks plus another 6 AP attacks from the handlers makes it possible to beat a static CR of 6, especially with Hatred.
Censers - An FAQ is probably needed to determine whether the Beastmasters take a Toughness test. If they do then this will work.

w3rm
19-10-2008, 00:44
lolzer i think skitter leap a warlock engineer behind it get either storm deamon and death globes or a brass orb. i reccomend the first one bescause you would get 2 warplightnings maybe a warplock pisttol and death globes. or an assain with warpstone stars soz for being repeitave.

Dairym
19-10-2008, 11:46
Poisoned gutter runners will hurt it, if you can just pass the psychology checks (which, admittedly, can be a problem with skaven skirmishers - globadiers even more so). Annoyingly the handlers are immune to all but template weapons - which could be a perk of the warpfire thrower.

Axis
20-10-2008, 11:55
'Maybe I'll just try 9+ warp lighting.'

Theres any other kind? :O

Skaven are one of the best armys for dealing with monsters.

Jezzails, warp lightning cannons and 2D6 S5 are all amazing for the job.

Ofc there is another kind.. its called storm daemon :D.