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Leman Russ
13-10-2008, 14:48
Well well now, in contrast to the 9001 Dark Angel whines, I, Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves, will do something no Dark Angel has done before, and that's post constructively :D

==][== Please note all fun made of Dark Angels and Dark Angels players is a Light Hearted joke relying on the fact that Space Wolves and Dark Angels dont like each other. Considering I felt the need to actually spell this out, I am sure you can deduce my feelings for said Dark Angel Players :p ==][==

The Current Situation:
Space Marines are GW's poster child. Easy to play, easy to collect and easy to paint. As such Space Marines of all (well, almost all, we'll get to that in a second) flavours are highly popular armies and outsell others by multiples of prime numbers.

Unsurprisingly, this means there are a large number of Marine Codex's, which I personally support, as the Chapters with "deviant" codex's (Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves) have differing structure and flavour to those listed in Codex: Ultramarines Space Marines.

Naturally this has opposition. After all, why cant Different Craftworlds have seperate codexes or different Ork warbands have separate codex's (Yes I understand they had mini-dexes in 3rd edition but I hope you can appreciate what a ************* they were, I mean, look at the poor Pups codex :cries:)
I say to this, fluff and rules wise its quite easy to represent (to the best of my knowledge, don't call me out on this) the various factions via their respective codex's, while its damn near impossible, for example, to represent Space Wolves with Codex: Space Marines.

Furthermore, because almost all Space Marine chapters, fluffwise, follow the Codex Astrates its easier to represent them, while those 1st founding legions who deviate, whether slightly or significantly, have gotten codex's. And yes I know Black Templars are second founding but they have about as much use for the Codex as the Space Wolves do (i.e. None)

But realistically its because Space Marines give the GW marketing department a big stiffy with the cash they rake in so its in their interests to have this range.

One major exception in my opinion is:
Codex: Chaos Space Marines


The Bland-ening:
The current Codex: Chaos Space Marines is, to say politely, a rather unfortunate being, stripped of its flavour and fluffyness like boiled-in-bleach cotton candy. It was a kneejerk reaction to the perceived brokenness of the 3.5 edition list and a major Mistake.

The gutting of the dedicated and/or Original Traitor Legions rules was a terrible mistake. Also, I don't see why Chaos Space Marines should be lumped into one book. The frenzied slaughters of the Word Bearers, fanatically dedicated to "Blood for the Blood God", shouldn't need to be represented by the same ruleset as the festering hulks of the Death Guard, or the indifferent Night Lords, who hold the other traitors in contempt for worshipping chaos at all!

So what I propose is as such:

Split the Chaos Space Marine codex into 5 Different Codex's


Has he been sniffing glue again?
Why no I haven't thank you and let me explain why I propose such madness before the Dark Eldar come and invite* me for afternoon tea**.

*By "Invite" I mean kidnap
**And by tea I mean Millennia of Very Very Very Slow Torture (Capitalisation Intended)

Create the codex's, not for the individual legions, but for the different aspects of chaos. So rather than one Codex: Chaos Space Marines, you would have Codex: Khorne, Codex: Tzeentch , Codex: Slaanesh, Codex: Nurgle and Codex: Chaos Undivided.

Each book would, rather than replicate what a combined Black Templar, Blood Angel, Dark Angel and Space Wolf codex would look like (By the Emperor can you imagine :() focus on one particular facet of Chaos, with rules not Unique to legions, but rules that can accurately represent those legions on the tabletop along with other corrupted Marines.

In essence, I propose a ruleset that rewards you for playing an army in a certain (fluffy) way. The Book of Khorne would promote Close Combat, perhaps with some bonuses or whatnot. I am not saying that they should be denied vehicles or anti tank or anything, but rather that the rules in some way (hey I may be a Primarch but I cant write a codex in 10 minutes) promote the style of warfare that Khorne embodies.

And as suck I leave it to you fellow Warseers to either threadnaught this like a bunch of Dark Angels Players or have a proper discussion, partly because I have made my points, and partly because I have run out of brain-steam. (^^,)

As always comments, Constructive criticism, non-Constructive criticism, flames or even hugs are all welcome.
I do ask that you actually read the post rather than kneejerk about too many Marine Codex's etc

captain ceaser
13-10-2008, 15:13
A do like the idea of it but how would you fill an entire codex with just e.g Khorne? There isnt that many units for each god. Oh and then put the same set of rules in an undivided codex? allot of people would howl (see the joke) with frustration when they get their lovely new codex for say Khorne and nurgle to discover a couple of months later that chaos undivided comes out and has the same rules in. DOH!!

Bloodknight
13-10-2008, 15:19
Well, if there are not enough units they could just make them up. They did nothing else than that with the new Codex Space Marines. Thunderfire cannon, 2 types of veterans, new landspeeder, more Land Raiders etc; lots of stuff formerly unheard of.

There could be Berzerkers on Juggernauts, Daemon engines of Khorne from small (the Blood Slaughterer) to big (I don't know), real Khorne Terminators, Superberzerkers (chosen) etc.etc.

Morganstern
13-10-2008, 15:23
Games workshop have already said that in the long term they intend to do more than one codex for chaos space marines. Also a lot of ideas have already been discussed in a similar thread that I started a few weeks ago.http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164330

captain ceaser
13-10-2008, 15:36
Very true on the units front. Imagine a bezerker dread! oooo

EVIL INC
13-10-2008, 15:41
Keep in mind Leman Russ that your view of the current chaos codex is a purely personal thing and in no way represents the view of all or even most chaos players. Most will pretty much agree though that legion codexes should be done.
This has all been hashed out amongst ourselves for going on the thousandth time and this thread will likely degenerate into trolling and flames within a page or so. Just do a search on the subject and you will see.

stroller
13-10-2008, 15:45
Come for tea.... we have cookies.... agree mostly with the principle of keeping the styles separate. That said it shouldnt be beyond the gumption of man to have a single codex with appendices.... should it?

unclejimbo827
13-10-2008, 15:52
One Cult book would be enough.

But honestly... chaos shouldn't be GW's big concern. Not while there are still 3rd ed books around.

King Vyper
13-10-2008, 16:00
I would take it a step further:

Do away with the Daemons Codex.

Split Daemons, CSM, Cultist & Mutants, Traitor Guard, Traitor Legions in the the five faction books.

RampagingRavener
13-10-2008, 16:07
If Chaos is going to be split more (and from the rumours, it seems eventually that it will be), I'd like to see it done in a way that isn't just dropping four more colours of bloody Space Marine armies into the game. God knows there's too many of them stagnating things already, I'd far prefer it if Chaos was just split as Daemons/Marines/L&TD.

If individual Legion codexes were done, base them around small groups of very, very powerful, old Chaos Marines, and hordes of cheap Daemons, Cultists, Mutants, and whatnot. The current Chaos 'dex describes the original Legions as mostly being broken up and scattered by now, so it would be a good opportunity for GW to try and bring the Lost and the Damned back in some small way.

toymaker
13-10-2008, 16:42
I'd like a book that covers the Cult Armies. More fluff for my armies = more gooder

SPYDER68
13-10-2008, 16:50
Book for each Chaos legion ? Might as well remove all non 3+ save armies from the game then, we already have the Love of Games Workshop, The space marines and their many codex's.

It would come down to... Release dates like this..

2010..

Blood angels in Feb-Mar
Khorne in Jun -July
Dark Angels Oct- Nov

2011..
Tzeentch Feb - Mar...
necrons!! Omg.. a non marine army!! Jun-July
Nurgle..... oct-nov

2012..
Slaanesh Feb - Mar
New Marine Codex Apr-may Hey its been a couple years, re-do codex and resell marines

We would get pretty much all Chaos and marine books, with 1 non 3+ save army per 2 years or less.

If they could do books as fast as fantasy does, it would be ok, but since they cannot wel.. All non marine armies will begin to be like Dark Eldar and never get a book.

ChrisAsmadi
13-10-2008, 17:01
Ideally, the Khorne dex could have...

HQs:
Khornate Chaos Lord, Khornate Daemon Prince, Bloodthirster, Herald of Khorne, Kharn

Elites:
Khornate Terminators, Khornate Chosen, Bloodcrushers, Khornate Dreadnought

Troops:
Berzerkers, Bloodletters, Cultists of Khorne

Fast Attack:
Khornate Bikers, Flesh Hounds, Khornate Raptors

Heavy Support
Defiler, some other Daemon Engines.

And so forth for the others.

I don't agree that we need another five marine dexes, mind, but I also don't think Dark/Blood Angels need their own dexes.

TheOneWithNoName
13-10-2008, 17:23
Most will pretty much agree though that legion codexes should be done.


I wonder why that is? :rolleyes:

Eater of Small Things
13-10-2008, 17:59
Very humorous and enjoyable to read opening-post, Leman Russ.

I would like to see GW throw a bone to the chaos space marine players, especially since the all the negative backlash of the current codex. They'll be due to have some flavor injected back into them soon.

Then again, chaos has had a lot of attention these past couple of years. The GW staffers may be too burned out to do cult-specific books.

How about a compromise between chaos space marines and Dark Eldar? Everyone knows that DE are in the works. We'll give you our chaos marks if you let us into your new codex. :angel:

Charax
13-10-2008, 18:17
Looking at the situation with the new SM codex, I'd rather not see seperate Legion/God books. Sure they're a good idea in principle but adding another 4+ books to the release cycle is just asking for trouble, especially with GW's apparent penchant for changing items before the cycle has even finished (hello Space Wolves)

Besides which, it would be grossly unfair to other armies - why should Chaos take up six "slots" in the release schedule when all flavours of Craftworld Eldar and Ork have one each? and the poor, poor DE...

I'd rather see an all-in-one book with rules for multiple armies - Many of the variant lists can be stripped down to a few new units and "refer to page XX". Basically, I think the "Book of X" concept was good, but flawed by virtue of being written by someone who wouldn't understand balance if he was a tightrope walker - polish it up, consolidate into one big book (the majority of Chaos players I know wouldn't mind paying extra for a bigger book, it beats the hell out of buying 2 or 3 separate books! - hell, I remember when Fantasy chaos came in a box) and let players have their fun. Balance shouldn't be a huge problem so long as each list is treated as a distinct army, and there's no issue with units being upgraded between releases because they're all feeding off the same core army.

It's wishful thinking, and I can't imagine it ever happening, but that's what I'd like to see.

SPYDER68
13-10-2008, 18:27
Id settle for a 200 ish page Chaos codex (no i dont play chaos) to make up for them not getting 5-6 codex's, they would be able to ban the mixiing of some marks etc to make fluffy yet.. Effective armies.

i didnt want to come off as with my previous post making chaos player think, that i think they dont deserve one, chaos needs one soon ish.

boogle
13-10-2008, 18:42
Slaanesh/Noise Marine Army

HQ
Lord (maybe even bring back a lesser version of Siren :D), Sorcerer, Daemon Prince, Keeper of Secrets

Elites
Sonic Terminators, Slaaneshi Chosen, Slaaneshi Dreads

Troops
Noise Marine, Daemonettes

Fast Attack
Noise Bikers, Seekers of Slaanesh, a Sonic Fast Vehicle

Heavy Support
Sonic Defilers, a cut down version of a Hell Knight, all vehicles have sonic weapon options, Sonic Havocs

Nurgle/Death Guard

HQ
Lord, Sorcerer, Great Unclean One, Daemon Prince

Elites
Nurgle Termies, Beasts of Nurgle, Nurgle Chosen

Troops
Nurgle Troops, Plague Bearers, Nurglings

Fast Attack
Nurgle Bikers, Plague Carriers (new type of Viral vehicle), Vehicle Mounted Squads

Heavy Support
Defiler, Nurgle Dreads (allow them to be more heavily armed with ranged weapons), Plague Throwers (kind of like a corrupted version of a Whirlwind), Nurgle Havocs (more special weapons perhaps (7?)

Tzeentch

HQ
Sorcerer Lord, Sorcerer Acolyte, Lord of change, Daemon Prince

Elites
Rubric Terminators, Chosen (allow them to all be Sorcerers), Sorcerer Dreads (they aren't insane and can utilise a small range of psychic powers)

Troops
1k Sons, Horrors

Fast Attack
Flamers, Chosen Bikers, Disk Riders

Heavy Support
Psychic Defiler (trapped essence of a Spellcasting Daemon), New Tzeentch Vehicle, Chosen Havocs?

all just off the top of my head

SPYDER68
13-10-2008, 18:44
Chaos wont have a chance on getting daemons back to go in a new Chaos marine codex with Chaos Daemons just getting their own book not to long ago.

but imo, chaos should get 0-1 choice of them to summon with stipulations.

DhaosAndy
13-10-2008, 18:47
Personaly I think a 3 book split would be better, undivided, then 2 opposing powers in each subsequent book. Each one covering the legions and sub cults associated with them. Given how much they crammed into the new SM dex I can't believe they couldn't fill a book with the amount of material available now, with out need of anything new as such.

As an example the Tzeentch/Nurgle book would need to cover both major factions of the Thousand Sons and the Deathguard, as well as the cults/special units associated with each.

Madfool2
13-10-2008, 18:51
Nice 80's throwback too. :)

Luckywallace
13-10-2008, 19:20
Hmm... while I understand the arguments for multiple Chaos codex books I don't think it is that realistic or even a great idea.

I have to say that I *do* think the current Chaos Codex can do a good job of representing the Traitor Legions, just as well as the Ork Codex can represent the clans of the Eldar codex the Craftworlds.

Want a World Eater army? Take lots of beserkers, Khorne Lord, Khorne Daemon prince and use blootletters for your "lesser daemons".

Wants Death Guard? Lots of Plague Marines.

Want Iron Warriors? Take Oblitorators, Vindaicators, Dreadnoughts etc.

Yes, they are not QUITE ideal, but no worse than using Codex Orks for a goff ork army and th ork players don't complain (well, not that I've heard of).

--- Also, G.W. seem to be already incapable of actually supporting the armies they currently DO have out. How many armies are waiting for an update? Dark Eldar, Necrons, Imperial Guard and the Inquisition armies are all desperate for a new codex, and the Tau and Tyranids should be before any "new" Chaos or Imperial Marine books (Tau and 'Nid army lists are okay but they're 64 page books are small and pathetic compared to the 144 page Marines Dex... they deserve more). Space Wolves are also woefully out of date and the Black Templars are a bit out-of-synch with the modern game too.

- I would guess that by the time the Imperial Guard, Necrons, Dark Eldar, Space Wolves and (hopefully) Inquisition books are done, then the Templars, Tau and Tyranid ones it will be several years and G.W. will be considering re-doing some of the existing "updated" codex books.

I just don't think having a whole set of extra Chaos Books is going to be supportable. In an ideal world it's a good idea, but just not practicle.

Asi the Red
13-10-2008, 19:38
Though I don't play Chaos, I agree with DhaosAndy. This way you could leave the Codex they already have as Codex: Chaos Warbands/Undivided, then do Ancient Enemies Tzeentch/Nurgle and Ancient Enemies Khorne/Slaanesh.

Vampiric16
13-10-2008, 19:45
My opinion is that an updated Books of Chaos section be stapled onto the current codex. This would be a simple solution and would provide adequate opportunity to fluff your army. For example:
Alpha legion may include cultists (not as many as before though)
IW may have a techmarine equivalent (servo arm).
Night Lords gain the night vision skill.
Word bearers have chaplain equivalent.
Black legion use the normal list.
World Eaters may upgrade KBs to have chainaxes/ use khornate daemons.
Death guard get nurgle daemons.
Emperors children get Slaaneshi daemons/ sonic weaponry for other units.
Thousand Sons get Tzeentchian daemons.
This I think would provide enough variation to field a Legion without messing around too much with the codex.

MvS
13-10-2008, 19:48
You know, I favour really big books with everything in them. One stop shops.

I would have like to have seen a massive Chaos Codex, which has rules for unaligned renegades and rules for armies dedicated to different gods. Importantly, I would have like to have seen a much better version of what was attempted with the Inquisition books - so background and army lists that allow you to play with either pure Chaos Marine forces, or forces led by Marines but also comprising of various interesting traitor and and heretic formations.

So you could field your entire World Eaters mega-slay army of charging doom, or you could field a mixed Khornate army of World Eaters, other Traitor Marine berzerkers, and Khorne worshipping Guardsmen, Ogryns, you name it really.

Would such a book have taken a massive amount of investment in time to design and playtest it right? Absolutely! Would it be worth it...?

Hell yes!

Bunnahabhain
13-10-2008, 20:05
No. We don't need more mainly marine books.

Chaos should have been a big book the size of the new marine one. It should have been more flexible and characterful.

It wasn't and most people have now got to used to it, even if they don't particularly like it.

There are simply too many overlapping units to make separate books worth it. I'd have like to seen a book with the main list, and a number of sub lists -1 for each of the gods, and the main one.

I really am not sure if LatD belong in the main codex. I'd like to see a Codex-Cults which could cover Chaos cults, Genestealer cults, and any other cults that come to mind.

the1stpip
13-10-2008, 20:09
I feel it should be done more a la Codex: Armageddon and Eye of Terror.

Using the parent list, four or more sub lists together in one book.

I would also resist the temptation to release lots of new models, and instead rely on people converting stuff.

Ambu
13-10-2008, 20:37
I agree and disagree w/ the op. Yes I think more should be done with the C: CSM.
The current codex (IMO) is really C:Black LegionUndivided but pales in comparrison to C:UltramarinesSM.

Also if they where to do just a Legion book, imo, to be done right, it will have to be as thick as the rule book to reflect the big six. You just can't do God specific codexes because you would leave out Nightlords and Iron Warriors then since they do not follow the any god, in fact are kinda phobic against following a God per se.

Believe me I would love a Death Guard book since that is the core of the army I have, I would love to see true marks for the termies, bikers, and raptors, also god specific rules for dreads and tanks.

In retrospect it should be two books then. The God loyal Legions (Deathguard, Thousand Sons, etc) and the Undivided Legions (Iron Warriors, Knight Lords, hell even a rule set for the Fallen).

Just my two cents though....

Vampiric16
13-10-2008, 20:38
They could at the very least have given us a plastc dread.

dal9ll
13-10-2008, 20:52
I think its a horrible idea to split Chaos into the different factions (Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch, Slaanesh, Undivided). It limits how CSM players can build their armies. You wouldnt be able to use Plague Marines and Noise Marines in the same armies. Plus you'd have to buy several different codices to be able to use all of your models! I am however, in favor of separate codices for the main Traitor Legions. More than 3 of these would be too much though. I think this would be appropriate:

--Codex: Chaos Space Marines
--Codex: Iron Warriors
--Codex: Word Bearers

other possible Traitor Legion codices that would be cool (and realistic):
--Codex: Emperors Children
--Codex: Death Guard

ChrisAsmadi
13-10-2008, 20:58
The only one of these I'd truely like to see would be Alpha Legion. Why? Simple.

Here's how I'd do it:

HQs:
Alpha Legion Champion, retinues of either Alpha Legionaires or Alpha Legion Terminators.
Traitor Officer, retinue of Traitor Veterans.
Demagogue, retinue of Traitor Guardsmen, Big Mutants or Cultists, Option to become a Rogue Psyker.
Greater Daemon, does not count as compulsory HQ, may possess Cultist Champions, Demagogues, Rogue Psykers, Mutant Champions or Traitor Officers/Sergents.

Elites:
Alpha Legionaires, chosen stats, options for one of: Infiltrate/Jump Packs/Bikes/Rhino.
Rogue Psyker Cabal, unit of 3-5 rogue psykers.
Traitor Veterans, Hardened Veteran stats.
Big Mutants

Troops:
Cultists
Mutants
Traitor Guardsmen
Lesser Daemons, do not count for compulsory two troops.

Fast Attack:
Mounted Traitor Guardsmen - option for normal mounts, tainted mounts or bikes.
Traitor Sentinels, Hellhounds and Salamanders.
Alpha Legion Light Vehicle: Landspeeder/Razorback.

Heavy Support:
Traitor Tanks: Leman Russ Varients.
Alpha Legion Heavy Vehicle: Predator/Vindicator
Alpha Legion Land Raider

Each Traitor Tank requires one unit of Traitor Guardsmen or Veterans.
Each Alpha Legion Vehicle (Light OR Heavy) requires one of: Alpha Legion Champion, Alpha Legion Terminators or Alpha Legionaires.
Each Alpha Legion Land Raider requires an Alpha Legion Champion.

Stingray_tm
13-10-2008, 21:02
I think every Space Marine should have his own Codex and each of those should have subcodizes for every weapon a Marine can have, describing his underwear and what he ate for breakfast.

I mean, who plays Non-Marines anyway...

On a more serious note, i think, that the TWO Chaos Codizes that we have now, are too much. There should be one (1) with Chaos Space Marines and Daemons in one army list with the legions as optional lists. Like the 3.5 codex. There was nothing wrong with the concept itself, it was only poorly implemented and not tested. If you put a Legion into an own book or in 3-4 pages of the same book makes no difference, as long as you PLAYTEST that damn thing.

the neckbone
13-10-2008, 21:02
the only extra stuff i think it needs is more deamon stuff like past codex. the generic schmoo we got now is lame

ReveredChaplainDrake
13-10-2008, 21:14
It's a sad fact that, in retrospect, the Chaos Marine Codex captures the feel of a Chaos warband properly. You can take anything you want. No restrictions of any kind, except your own morality. Thus, generals who are predisposed to picking the most powerful units of all will be the best Chaos Marine generals. In player terms, if you're a jerk who wants a powerful army with the only restriction being that you'll lose friends very quickly, the Chaos Marine Codex is for you.

Here, take a towel to wipe GW's spit off your face.

As for legions, hate to rain on your collective parade, but GW has already taken actions to implement Cult-specific rules for the Big Four legions. They're called Apocalypse datasheets. Berserker Termiantors w/ Furious Charge? You got 'em. AP3 Combi-Bolter Terminators? Also there. Sonic Terminators and Havocs? You betcha'. So all in all, GW has implemented the rules. They're just not legal. Unless, of course, you amass 3000-pt lists and play Anarchyhammer- er, Apocalypse. And if you play an Undivided army, then you're sitting out in the cold unless you want to be a cheese-grubbing jerk, which the current Chaos Marine Codex was designed for.

The towel is still here if you need it. (GW clearly doesn't esteem CSM players for their sportsmanship...)

Supremearchmarshal
13-10-2008, 22:08
You know, I favour really big books with everything in them. One stop shops.

I would have like to have seen a massive Chaos Codex, which has rules for unaligned renegades and rules for armies dedicated to different gods. Importantly, I would have like to have seen a much better version of what was attempted with the Inquisition books - so background and army lists that allow you to play with either pure Chaos Marine forces, or forces led by Marines but also comprising of various interesting traitor and and heretic formations.

So you could field your entire World Eaters mega-slay army of charging doom, or you could field a mixed Khornate army of World Eaters, other Traitor Marine berzerkers, and Khorne worshipping Guardsmen, Ogryns, you name it really.

Would such a book have taken a massive amount of investment in time to design and playtest it right? Absolutely! Would it be worth it...?

Hell yes!

Hear, Hear!

I posted something like this in one of the many CSM-codex related topics.A massive amount of units would be in the codex, but who you chose for the army commander would determine the army composition (So a CSM Lord would require you to spend 2/3 of your points on CSM, but allow the other 1/3 on Daemons, Mutants etc.).

This would be my dream come true. No chance of it happening though (at least not prior to some massive change in GW management).

CauCaSus
13-10-2008, 22:58
Games workshop have already said that in the long term they intend to do more than one codex for chaos space marines.

I always thought that was their intention from the beginning. I mean, why settle with one codex if you cal sell two (or five!)?

cailus
13-10-2008, 23:50
I would take it a step further:

Do away with the Daemons Codex.

Split Daemons, CSM, Cultist & Mutants, Traitor Guard, Traitor Legions in the the five faction books.

I like this idea! It would represent the forces of Chaos in a much better way than the current Marine/Daemon split and it would re-introduce the all critical LaTD back into the game in a meaningful way.

Mighty Moose
14-10-2008, 00:00
Rather than 5 different codices...why not just devote a larger section/rules to each of the 4 chaos gods?

You would have your general Chaos Space Marines ruels, and then you would have a section devoted to Khorne players, with Khornate special rules. Slaaneshi rules and units in the Slaanesh section..so on and so forth?

That way it's one (albeit a bit large) codex. So it only takes one release, and yet you still get your variations.

adreal
14-10-2008, 00:29
Personally, I would be happy with one codex, this one codex could even be the same setup as the new daemon codex (ie a small section of gifts rather then you choose what you want out of an armoury) yes limiting, but easier to playtest and balance when you (GW) know what they will be taking.

HQ
All the special characters from CSM and CD
Chaos Lord (gets marks, can take a veteren skill to show he's from a legion if you want, there is some undivided gifts as well as good specific, the same weapon options he now has, a couple more undivided daemon weapons)
Chaos Sorcerer (The same as now, lash slightly reworked, can take a vet skill to show he's from a legion)
Daemon Prince (Same as in codex daemons, but can take powers from CSM, extra gift lets him count as mortal for troop choice purposes)
Greater Daemons (Start as generic but the marks change it to a keeper of secrets or bloodthirster, if its a god Daemon can only come from units of the same god, options as is from CD)
Heralds (same as in codex daemons)
Chaos Lt. (Slightly better aspiring champion (nothing to write home about, maybe 2 wounds and an extra attack) less options then a lord (no daemon weapon) can take a vet skill to show its from a legion)
ELITES
Chosen (same as now, but can buy a mark as well as a Icon, mark lets them take the same options as thier cult troops, but changes the vet skill from infiltrate to whatever suits (furious charge etc))
Termies (same as now, if all champions they can be marked, can take a vet skill)
Bloodcrushers, Fiends, Flamers, Beasts (same as now)
Possessed (same as now, can buy a mark (gives them an ability rather then rolling for it))
Dreds (same as now, can be god specific (maybe take sonic weapons if a slaanesh one, price would be jacked up ofcoarse...)
TROOPS
CSM (same as now, can only take up troops choices if mortal)
Generic Daemons (same as now)
Daemonettes, Bloodletters, Horrors, Plaguebearers, Nurglings (can only be chosen if general (lord/greater daemon/Daemon Prince/Lt./Herald) has same mark (can only take up troop choices if daemon general is leading)
Cultist (never counts as troops (cant hold objectives) conscript stats, can take a icon)
Cult Troops (same as now, maybe give zerkers thier chain axes back as a champion weapon, maybe give combat drugs back to noise marines....)
FAST ATTACK
Bikers (same as now, can be marked, if marked gets options as is thier cult unit)
Raptors (as is, maybe give them a choice of a veteran skill (tank hunters, hit and run)
Spawn (a good invun save (4+) can be icon'd)
Seekers, Flesh Hounds, Screamers, Furies (as is)
HEAVY SUPPORT
Havoc's (same as now, can be marked, plague marines get more special weapon choices and infiltrate (or scout or something), noise marines get sonic weapons, khorne ones get some form of an attractive bonus, and K sons get to be rubics......but a psy power from the sorc should make them somewhat attractive)
Defiler (same as now, can become unbound and become the same as a soul grinder)
Vindi's (same as now)
Preds (same as now, can become god specific)
Land Raiders (get the same transport as in the new marine codex, possession lets you fire another weapon on the move, can be god specific)


Would this codex then cost $50 AU, yeah, would it mean my army will have to change around.......yeah

Would I enjoy it, yeah
would others......yeah because it gives options, rather then chaos just being a diffent paint scheme and one amry always getting invun saves, that will now be different, there can even be a daemon army if you wanted (just needs a daemon lord to lead it)

Ubermensch Commander
14-10-2008, 00:37
Too many overlapping units to justify new codices. Just to get stealth, sonic weapons, or servo arms, which are just unit upgrades for base units that all Legions share (Terminators, Chaos Marines, Preds, etc), seems a massive waster of trees and ink to me.
Besides, If Eldar and Orks do all their shopping from one codex, so can Chaos Marines. When Chaos gets itself a redux, hopefully after those codices which have not been updated in several years/editions but hey no guarantees there, one big book should do just fine.
I am actually somewhat surprised at the calls for splitting the books actually, given the negative reaction to separating Daemons from the Chaos Space Marine Codex.

HsojVvad
14-10-2008, 01:17
I say one codex for the all. I really like the old 3.5 codex, lots of nice fluff and reading in their.

I say the DE, IG, and Necrons and =I= should be next.

It would even fit the GW patteren of Xeno, Imperisal, Xeno, Imperial release. I am surprised that it is all Imperial releases if rumored reoports of the next releases are true.

Ambu
14-10-2008, 01:43
I think its a horrible idea to split Chaos into the different factions (Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch, Slaanesh, Undivided). It limits how CSM players can build their armies. You wouldnt be able to use Plague Marines and Noise Marines in the same armies. Plus you'd have to buy several different codices to be able to use all of your models! I am however, in favor of separate codices for the main Traitor Legions. More than 3 of these would be too much though. I think this would be appropriate:


Se that's the whole point of the specific codexes. Undivided is the catch all, you want troop versility go with them, but if you are like me and play a Deathguard style army, you want a lil bit more flavor. Thats why I say have a Legion book(s) that seperate the god specific and unassociated like Night Lords and the like.

Hell maybe give the god specific armies a chance to get Daemons again ;)


It's a sad fact that, in retrospect, the Chaos Marine Codex captures the feel of a Chaos warband properly. You can take anything you want. No restrictions of any kind, except your own morality. Thus, generals who are predisposed to picking the most powerful units of all will be the best Chaos Marine generals. In player terms, if you're a jerk who wants a powerful army with the only restriction being that you'll lose friends very quickly, the Chaos Marine Codex is for you.

Here, take a towel to wipe GW's spit off your face.

Thats your opinion and your intitled to it, but if your 'friends' ditch you because of you codex, you obviously need new friends anyway. In all honesty though, the C:CSM is really not all that powerful unless you are playing still playing with the 3.5 one. It is a nicely balanced and versitile which it lacked before. Comparied with the new C:SM, Orks, or a Nid-zilla army they are not tuff at all, at best evenly matched which is as it should be.


As for legions, hate to rain on your collective parade, but GW has already taken actions to implement Cult-specific rules for the Big Four legions. They're called Apocalypse datasheets

Hate to rain on your parade but GW is working on a legion specific codex, they had said as much already. Non-apoc ones.... .



Berserker Termiantors w/ Furious Charge? You got 'em. AP3 Combi-Bolter Terminators? Also there. Sonic Terminators and Havocs? You betcha'. So all in all, GW has implemented the rules. They're just not legal. Unless, of course, you amass 3000-pt lists and play Anarchyhammer- er, Apocalypse. And if you play an Undivided army, then you're sitting out in the cold unless you want to be a cheese-grubbing jerk, which the current Chaos Marine Codex was designed for.

The towel is still here if you need it. (GW clearly doesn't esteem CSM players for their sportsmanship...)

Sounds like someone has a chip on their shoulder, can't beat a chaos army, huh!!
Sounds like you are being the poor loser with your post.I handle my wins and loses in style, thank my opponent for either. You comments are very sterotypical in nature, and I as a CSM player resent them, please next time check your chip at the door.



I say one codex for the all. I really like the old 3.5 codex, lots of nice fluff and reading in their.

Agreed, really. It would have to be a large book though to please the majority.


I say the DE, IG, and Necrons and =I= should be next.

It would even fit the GW patteren of Xeno, Imperisal, Xeno, Imperial release. I am surprised that it is all Imperial releases if rumored reoports of the next releases are true.


IG is next, so the pattern is broken unless GW is going for a big surprise on all, which could happen, but not likely....

Lord-Caerolion
14-10-2008, 05:48
Drake, your argument falls down for one simple reason. Not all players want to play Apocalypse! I want to be able to play my Legion in a simple game, rather than having to go out and buy even more models to make a good Apocalypse army. Emperors Children don't want to have to play massive games just to use their Sonic Bikers again. Thousand Sons don't want to have to play Apocalypse to use Rubric Terminators again.
And you know what the biggest thing about Apocalypse is? Everybody says "oh, but you can use your daemons in Apocalypse, just play that". You know what? Ultramarines can use daemons in Apocalypse! Anything can use daemons in Apocalypse! Anyone can use your supposed unique Cult Terminators, your Plaguebearers, your god-specific Greater Daemons. Apocalypse is not the answer.

ReveredChaplainDrake
14-10-2008, 06:12
@ Lord-Caerolion: I was in no way endorsing Apocalypse. Hence the part about GW spitting in the faces of legion players who actually want rules for their legions that can actually be used in a conventional game.


Thats your opinion and your intitled to it, but if your 'friends' ditch you because of you codex, you obviously need new friends anyway. In all honesty though, the C:CSM is really not all that powerful unless you are playing still playing with the 3.5 one. It is a nicely balanced and versitile which it lacked before. Comparied with the new C:SM, Orks, or a Nid-zilla army they are not tuff at all, at best evenly matched which is as it should be.
Personally I find them quite easy to beat, but that's because everyone I play against has the courtesy to not cheese them out. I think I've lost one game ever to Chaos Marines, and it used two Lash Sorcerers in a Berserker list.


Hate to rain on your parade but GW is working on a legion specific codex, they had said as much already. Non-apoc ones.... .
Really? No kidding? Oh that would be so awesome... well except for the fact that Necrons, Dark Eldar, etc need it so much more than we do. As CSMs are relatively new, most of us have fallback armies to tide us over.


Sounds like someone has a chip on their shoulder, can't beat a chaos army, huh!!
Sounds like you are being the poor loser with your post.I handle my wins and loses in style, thank my opponent for either. You comments are very sterotypical in nature, and I as a CSM player resent them, please next time check your chip at the door.
No, other way around actually. I've got a Night Lords army. And I have no problems winning with it. But when attempting to build an accurate Night Lords build, I'm looking at our Fast Attack choices a little weird. For Raptors, you're paying 5 points and giving up a Bolter and scoring status to give your Chaos Marines... Jump Packs. Tell me with a straight face that that's worth it. Bikes stopped being points-efficient when Veteran Skills (particularly Furious Charge) went away, but even then they were just barely on the line. And don't even get me started on Spawn.

When I realized that my Night Lords army ended up using 3 Heavies and 0 Fasts, I found myself with the excuse of "Night Lords don't use fast stuff, they use scary stuff." It's a lame excuse to cover the fact that I won't touch Raptors, Bikes, and Spawn with a 20-foot pole. But y'know what? It's okay. According to GW, Night Lords don't use any of that stuff if they don't want to. In fact, Night Lords use lots of Cult Marines, even though they're not supposed to be worshipers of Chaos. They also fight with static firebases that use lots of Heavy Weapons to decimate their foes at a range, while staunchly refusing to close with their foes in CC. Hmm...

cailus
14-10-2008, 06:17
I hate the way GW uses Apocalypse as an excuse for lazy games development.

Lord-Caerolion
14-10-2008, 06:54
Sorry about that then, Drake. I'm just uptight about the excuse of "Just play Apocalypse! You can use whatever you want!"
But yes, Night Lords do use scary stuff rather than fast stuff, so having 3 Heavy Support and no Fast Attack can be fitting. Emphasis on the "can". I'm not saying Night Lords should be long-range, but if you use tanks aggressively, actively looking to Tank Shock, then that can be just as Night Lord-y as running lots of bikes and Raptors, if not more so. I need to add some more tanks, i.e. more than just my Baneblade, and the planned Drop Pods.
And it's true, there are more codex's out there that need updating first. Let's give those guys a chance to complain about new rules as well!

Imperialis_Dominatus
14-10-2008, 09:46
I'd far prefer it if Chaos was just split as Daemons/Marines/L&TD.

This. I'd like to see a zomghueg 'Dex like the one the SM got released for each of these armies. Hell, I'd like to see all armies get that treatment.

I also think that the massive number of SM Codices is slowing down the dev cycle for everyone. However, I'm torn. A WD 'Dex won't do them justice in fluff and brings them that much closer to oblivion. A combination of their forces with the regular SM Codex makes that book even more ridiculously big (but hopefully they could then cut down on the ZOMGULTRAZOMGLOLOLOL!). However, making a Codex for each BT, DA, SW, BA, and regular SM is insane, unless GW finds a way to speed up and multitask in their dev cycle. If they could do that then the wealth of Codices would be fine.

I mean, as of now we've got:
SM
BT
BA (WD)
DA
SW (getting update soon, hopefully will revive 13th Co. somehow)
IG
DH/WH (probs gonna make an Inq Codex)
Eldar
Necrons
Tyranids
Orks
Tau
Dark Eldar
CSM
Daemons

Plus we want LatD. And if you don't you're a heretic.

That's a lot of armies, and at GW's pace of development it takes more than a whole edition to update them all- poor DE. Seriously.

The easiest way to cut down on the armies would be to find a way to shove some SM armies into the SM Codex. I can see ways this could be done (SW would be incredibly difficult to do though), but it wouldn't sit well with everyone.

But something should be done. Armies need updates, dammit. Maybe WD Codices are the way to go, if they get the same sort of list love the SM Codex has.

But that cuts down on fluff. And that's bad.

*sigh*...I'm going in circles. I like Marines and all, but I feel pained that they are focused on at the expense of other armies.


They could at the very least have given us a plastc dread.

Yeah, that other one's looking a little dated.

Ambu
14-10-2008, 15:03
Hmmmm, first off Drake, I think we are both mis-read one another. I think we agree on more points then, at least I, originally read in your post. As far as My misinterpitation I may have misconstrued sarcasm for a gripe. If so my bad.




Personally I find them quite easy to beat, but that's because everyone I play against has the courtesy to not cheese them out. I think I've lost one game ever to Chaos Marines, and it used two Lash Sorcerers in a Berserker list.

Agreed and the same, though I can't comment for sure because I am one of only 3 Chaos players I know, and one of those is a Lash heavy army. Only played Lash once just to see what all the hubblub was about. Yes it is powerful but can be easily shut down (I have done it everytime I played the lash player, in fact he has stopped playing me). Lash is alot weaker now the new SM codex is out as well, those players can't rely on that one-trick poy anymore if they want to stay competitive in tourneys vs. the marine players.



Really? No kidding? Oh that would be so awesome... well except for the fact that Necrons, Dark Eldar, etc need it so much more than we do. As CSMs are relatively new, most of us have fallback armies to tide us over.

It's what I have heard mind you from friends in GW. Don't wait on it though because they also tell me it will be atleast a calander year. Like you said, there are other armies in a bigger need. Hell the 4th ed codex I thinwas only put out because 3.5 was over-powered and (hopefully) allows them time to pull off a legion book right.



No, other way around actually. I've got a Night Lords army. And I have no problems winning with it. But when attempting to build an accurate Night Lords build, I'm looking at our Fast Attack choices a little weird. For Raptors, you're paying 5 points and giving up a Bolter and scoring status to give your Chaos Marines... Jump Packs. Tell me with a straight face that that's worth it. Bikes stopped being points-efficient when Veteran Skills (particularly Furious Charge) went away, but even then they were just barely on the line. And don't even get me started on Spawn.

When I realized that my Night Lords army ended up using 3 Heavies and 0 Fasts, I found myself with the excuse of "Night Lords don't use fast stuff, they use scary stuff." It's a lame excuse to cover the fact that I won't touch Raptors, Bikes, and Spawn with a 20-foot pole. But y'know what? It's okay. According to GW, Night Lords don't use any of that stuff if they don't want to. In fact, Night Lords use lots of Cult Marines, even though they're not supposed to be worshipers of Chaos. They also fight with static firebases that use lots of Heavy Weapons to decimate their foes at a range, while staunchly refusing to close with their foes in CC. Hmm...


I do feel your pain, though not AS effected as you are, my Death Guard are a shadow of past incarnations. I have a friend who used to play Iron Warriors as well, needless say he sold them on Ebay shortly after the 4th ed codex and proceeded to buy a complete, painted, 2k DE army (cheap too mind you) and started to build his Ork army from the money he made off of it.

Supremearchmarshal
14-10-2008, 17:15
Too many overlapping units to justify new codices. Just to get stealth, sonic weapons, or servo arms, which are just unit upgrades for base units that all Legions share (Terminators, Chaos Marines, Preds, etc), seems a massive waster of trees and ink to me.
Besides, If Eldar and Orks do all their shopping from one codex, so can Chaos Marines.

The loyalist marines still get their codices, even though 80% of the stuff inside is the same for all of them.


I hate the way GW uses Apocalypse as an excuse for lazy games development.

Look at it this way: better Apocalypse than the chopping block. (if Apocalypse wasn't around do you really think they'd get updated?)


Plus we want LatD. And if you don't you're a heretic.

They aren't alone, though. Feral Orks, Kroot Mercs, Genestealer Cult and 13th Company are IMO very creative and fun lists, and it's a shame they've essentially been dropped.


The easiest way to cut down on the armies would be to find a way to shove some SM armies into the SM Codex. I can see ways this could be done (SW would be incredibly difficult to do though), but it wouldn't sit well with everyone.

But something should be done. Armies need updates, dammit. Maybe WD Codices are the way to go, if they get the same sort of list love the SM Codex has.

Well currently GW seem to strongly oppose the idea. They want you to be able to walk into the store, buy one codex (which has all the needed rules for your army), and be able to buy all the units/options in that codex in clearly labeled boxes/blisters. That, just in case you didn't know, is why the armies I mentioned above have met their demise.

Leman Russ
14-10-2008, 17:45
I dont see why people think One huge dex for SM is a good idea. Why should I (as a space wolf player) have to buy the rules for the 999 other chapters that I never will want to play?

And if you are gonna do that, why not drop the chaos codex (use marines as counts as) and push all the xenos into a single book?

Ya not gonna happen.

J-L
14-10-2008, 19:03
What I want to see is real legion codexes after all the codexes has gotten 5th edition updates. And I don't want to see what many people have suggested, for example world eaters being: khornate lord, khornate daemon prince, khornate chosen, khornate termies, berzerkers, bike berzerkers, bloodletters, blood crushers etc. What we need is not a merge between codex dameons and csm with furious charge thrown on top. I want to see new units, like the Blood Slaughterer of Khorne ( http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Blood_Slaughterer ) and totally new weapons/wargear (how about something firing molten brass? Chainglaive? Skullcannon? Bloodboiler?), Khorne is not all about close combat. The legions need to play totally different from any other marines, preferably having totally new army wide rules (and I do not mean just some must-charge-everything-in-range-rule). Also they need to be diverse enough to warrant a few different builds, just not the mass furious assault build. I think the best legion to start with is Alpha Legion, because they have the potential of becoming something very unique. Just giving them cultists and infilitrate is not going to do it for me.

MuGGzy
14-10-2008, 19:07
I got out of the game right after the EoT codex came out and JUST got the new codex and a new CSM army to get back into the game and I have been highly dissapointed with the blandness of the new codex. I enjoyed the "favored numbers" and Army X gets to use unit Y as a Troops choice" etc. I had a friend that had an awesome Nightlords army with all raptors, which is totally unusable now. I think they went too far. I think a compromise between what it was and what it IS would have been more appropriate, as opposed to decisding that every army is now Black Legion in diff colors.

Dr.Clock
14-10-2008, 20:09
I think that the apoc datasheets are a good place to start, though.

I would be totally open to someone asking to use the sheet in any game.

From a similar perspective: I would have no problem having someone use the Daemons codex for a second detachment - and even pay a certain number of points to allow the CSM icons to be used by the daemons.

For friendly play, there is no reason why these things would not be feasible.

I, for one, do not accept that the CSM codex does not do exactly what it clams to: represent a diverse and 'chaotic' albeit disparate conglomeration of warbands.

Certainly, it does not do what everyone wished it might: that is allow one to represent EXACTLY what we feel to be very different strategic preferences of the different legions. But I am of the opinion that getting ALL of those legions into one book would have been incredibly difficult - especially with the release of 5th and all the new codices for the other factions.

In sum, it is far easier to balance these 'niche' lists against a relatively coherent framework of more 'major' factions. Until DE, IG, necrons and tyranids all have their rules ironed out, I think it would be quite foolish to attempt the release and balance of more chaos lists.

The plethora of 'counts as' threads that seem to be abounding would lead me to suggest that players consider using either counts-as or dual detachments to get LaTD or traitor guard (guard with DAEMONS instead of guard with DAEMONHUNTERS) lists. I, for one, would welcome this type of inventiveness.

I think that these books are a definite possibility. We have heard rumours that they are at least planned for some point. Until then, the CSM book is, let's face it, pretty decent. Beyond that, get some friends together and come up with alternatives... the tools you need are to a great extent already there.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Irisado
14-10-2008, 21:25
I favour the one book approach on the whole, although three books would be possible, if you split them along the lines of the original Chaos books that were around in the days of Rogue Trader (Slaves to Darkness and Lost and the Damned). In other words, a Khorne/Slaaanesh, Tzeentch/Nurgle spilt, with the third book focussing on the Undivided Legions.

Ddraiglais
14-10-2008, 21:38
Chaos should be done in four books.

1-Renegades - All the recent converts and maybe a traitor guard list.

2-Undivided - BL, IW, NL, WB, & AL.

3-Cults - WE, TS, EC, & DG

4-Daemon World/Chaos Cultists - Daemons, mortal champions, and mutants (beastmen, plague zombies, minoataurs, trols, etc). The other list would be cultists with summoned daemons.

Grand Master Raziel
14-10-2008, 22:17
The current Codex: Chaos Space Marines is, to say politely, a rather unfortunate being, stripped of its flavour and fluffyness like boiled-in-bleach cotton candy. It was a kneejerk reaction to the perceived brokenness of the 3.5 edition list and a major Mistake.

Here, I'm afraid you're wrong on a number of items. For starters, there was nothing "perceived" about the brokenness of 3.5. From the standpoint of balance, it was the absolute worst dex has ever released for 40K throughout the current phase of the game (3rd through 5th edition).

As far as flavor and fluffyness goes, a whole pile of special rules do not make for that. The current dex certainly has less such rules, but that amounts to little as far as thematic appropriateness goes. Any player of any Legion should have no trouble coming up with a thematically appropriate list given the rules provided. The only problem with the current dex is that players accustomed to 3.5 have been spoiled by it, and their expectations are skewed. Those that are more than fair-weather fans to their armies will adjust.


The gutting of the dedicated and/or Original Traitor Legions rules was a terrible mistake. Also, I don't see why Chaos Space Marines should be lumped into one book. The frenzied slaughters of the Word Bearers, fanatically dedicated to "Blood for the Blood God", shouldn't need to be represented by the same ruleset as the festering hulks of the Death Guard, or the indifferent Night Lords, who hold the other traitors in contempt for worshipping chaos at all!

Again, I disagree. The Legions would have had similar combat doctrines in the first place - they answered to the Emperor directly before they were placed under the command of their Primarchs. Legions would have had to both be able to operate as seperate strategic entities and be able to coordinate with the other legions as required. Their tactical and strategic doctrines may have diverted under their Primarchs, but they started from a fairly common base, so that would have been a matter of degree, not orders of magnitude. The current rules in Codex: Chaos Space Marines are plenty flexible enough to allow that. What it could really use is some extra color material clarifying the fact that the Legions do have similar doctrines and that even the Cult Legions only diverge from it just so far.


So what I propose is as such:

Split the Chaos Space Marine codex into 5 Different Codex's

That's really not necessary. As far as I'm concerned, there's only one legion that really rates its own book: the Thousand Sons. The K-Sons, due to the Rubric of Ahriman and their focus on sorcery. All the other Legions can be portrayed quite handily by Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

Ambu
14-10-2008, 22:58
Chaos should be done in four books.

1-Renegades - All the recent converts and maybe a traitor guard list.

2-Undivided - BL, IW, NL, WB, & AL.

3-Cults - WE, TS, EC, & DG

4-Daemon World/Chaos Cultists - Daemons, mortal champions, and mutants (beastmen, plague zombies, minoataurs, trols, etc). The other list would be cultists with summoned daemons.

Kinda what I said originally I believe. :p

But yeah I agree.



As far as flavor and fluffyness goes, a whole pile of special rules do not make for that. The current dex certainly has less such rules, but that amounts to little as far as thematic appropriateness goes. Any player of any Legion should have no trouble coming up with a thematically appropriate list given the rules provided. The only problem with the current dex is that players accustomed to 3.5 have been spoiled by it, and their expectations are skewed. Those that are more than fair-weather fans to their armies will adjust.

Untrue, Iron Warriors cannot make a list that their fluff implies using the current codex, neither can Night lords. The God specic can to a degree, but not like they once were. The current codex really only lends itself to the Black Legion and Red Cosairs.




Again, I disagree. The Legions would have had similar combat doctrines in the first place - they answered to the Emperor directly before they were placed under the command of their Primarchs. Legions would have had to both be able to operate as seperate strategic entities and be able to coordinate with the other legions as required. Their tactical and strategic doctrines may have diverted under their Primarchs, but they started from a fairly common base, so that would have been a matter of degree, not orders of magnitude. The current rules in Codex: Chaos Space Marines are plenty flexible enough to allow that. What it could really use is some extra color material clarifying the fact that the Legions do have similar doctrines and that even the Cult Legions only diverge from it just so far.

And again I disagree with you, though the very basics are true, even before the Horus Heresy, each chapter was becoming unique in the way they did things. That is why we have diffent codexes for Smurfs, SW, BT, BA, and DA to show that their are differences in how different chapters go about things. Also, once again, the current codex allows SOME flexibility but not the degree you play it off. IW should have more tank choices then what the current list allows, NL should be able to use FA choices as troop choices (as long as certain criteria are met), etc....



That's really not necessary. As far as I'm concerned, there's only one legion that really rates its own book: the Thousand Sons. The K-Sons, due to the Rubric of Ahriman and their focus on sorcery. All the other Legions can be portrayed quite handily by Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

Thats a matter of opinion, me being a Death Guard player thinks we deserve are own book as well. I am sure the Renegade legions feel the same as well as the Emporers Children, etc....

Difference here is that I don't believe Death Guard should be the only ones to get a book.

Ddraiglais
14-10-2008, 23:53
Here, I'm afraid you're wrong on a number of items. For starters, there was nothing "perceived" about the brokenness of 3.5. From the standpoint of balance, it was the absolute worst dex has ever released for 40K throughout the current phase of the game (3rd through 5th edition).

As far as flavor and fluffyness goes, a whole pile of special rules do not make for that. The current dex certainly has less such rules, but that amounts to little as far as thematic appropriateness goes. Any player of any Legion should have no trouble coming up with a thematically appropriate list given the rules provided. The only problem with the current dex is that players accustomed to 3.5 have been spoiled by it, and their expectations are skewed. Those that are more than fair-weather fans to their armies will adjust.

That depends. The biggest complaint on the 3.5 dex was the 9 oblit 4 HS IW army. I tried it once and found it very hard to win with. I found it easy to beat the few times I played against it. The cost of oblits and HS left the rest of the army very bare.

I'll go ahead and give you that there were some powerful builds though. However, it's not like the 3.5 CSM dex was the only abusable list. I've seen some weedy builds from just about every dex GW has ever put out.

Rules support fluff. I can't come up with any list for any of the legions where I can say that that's exactly how I see the legion. We've been over this on countless threads. The bottom line is is that if the players of said legions don't think they can make a fair representation of their armies, then the codex is a failure. I have lost interest in 40K outside of Apocalypse and waiting for a legions dex. I'm not alone.


Again, I disagree. The Legions would have had similar combat doctrines in the first place - they answered to the Emperor directly before they were placed under the command of their Primarchs. Legions would have had to both be able to operate as seperate strategic entities and be able to coordinate with the other legions as required. Their tactical and strategic doctrines may have diverted under their Primarchs, but they started from a fairly common base, so that would have been a matter of degree, not orders of magnitude. The current rules in Codex: Chaos Space Marines are plenty flexible enough to allow that. What it could really use is some extra color material clarifying the fact that the Legions do have similar doctrines and that even the Cult Legions only diverge from it just so far.

Read some of the HH novels and say that again. When they describe the EC, they are trying to perfect warfare. They use complex firing lanes and are conceited among other things. The SoH/LW quickly take out the command and control of their enemies. The DG are hard as nails. Though not in the HH novels, the IW have always been described as the ulitmate in siege warfare. If there were differences among the legions during the GC, how different would they be 10K years later? That's not even touching on how some of the Loyalists have become different (illegally too). I think we're being generous as fans for only asking for a handful of codices. That would barely touch on how different the legions really are. If they had the resources, GW could produce a dex for each legion and still not do Chaos justice.


That's really not necessary. As far as I'm concerned, there's only one legion that really rates its own book: the Thousand Sons. The K-Sons, due to the Rubric of Ahriman and their focus on sorcery. All the other Legions can be portrayed quite handily by Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

So a focus on martial pride, or siege warfare, or infiltrating the enemy, or terror, or worshipping the Chaos gods, etc wouldn't rate a dex? What's so special about sorcery? The only thing I might cede here is that they have an entirely different troop type, and GW could explore dust terminators, dust havocs, etc. None of the other legions can be decently portrayed by the current dex either. Taking a few las cannons, a couple of vindis, and three oblits does not say anything about masters of siege warfare. Taking a stick that makes you angry, but you're nice as soon as someone drops it doesn't make a legion dedicated to Khorne. I could go on, but you won't believe me anyway. :D



Kinda what I said originally I believe. :p

But yeah I agree.


Well, you didn't mention the Daemon World and Cultist bit or the renegades. I think the LatD people would be happy with the first two lists, and I didn't want to ignore the Red Corsair/renegade chapter people. :) I do think we pretty much agree though.

Charax
15-10-2008, 00:55
That's really not necessary. As far as I'm concerned, there's only one legion that really rates its own book: the Thousand Sons. The K-Sons, due to the Rubric of Ahriman and their focus on sorcery. All the other Legions can be portrayed quite handily by Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

explain to me how Death Guard commanders being significantly less resilient than the troops they control makes any form of sense. Then repeat the process for Chosen and Terminators who are, after all, supposed to just be privileged and/or experienced versions of that same basic line troop.

ShadowDeth
15-10-2008, 01:04
I would like to see one cult book for the 4 big players, referencing the general undivided units therein - with incentive and additions to your army if you play God pure, and maybe minor supplements or footnotes for the lesser chapters - Iron Warriors, Nightlords, Word Bearers etc and an expanded wargear/gift section.

If it sounds like I'm describing the 3rd edition Chaos book, then you'd be correct! I really think they had it right the last time through, but for god sakes cut out Siren, Don't let Iron warriors take Nine thousand obliterators and 4 heavy supports and streamline the gifts.

Edit - How do they even plan on filling a whole codex of Cult marines?

Slaanesh

Elites "Noiser marines"?
Heavies "Uh, Blastmaster marines"?
Fast Attack "Guys in bondage on bikes"

I appreciate their intent, but it sounds to me like they will just redo the old Chaos book - but sell it four times over and add in the newer Daemons of Chaos stuff. Even the Daemons in the Daemons of Chaos book have throw backs to 3rd edition with their gifts and over the top abilities/psychic powers.

TrojanWolf
15-10-2008, 01:18
Well, I'm here now. Please try running, since it's more exciting to hunt you down and drag you screaming to Commorragh rather than have you come quietly.

Dr.Clock
15-10-2008, 02:19
"If they had the resources, GW could produce a dex for each legion and still not do Chaos justice."

Exactly. And that's the rub isn't it?

Chaos is HUGE. It doesn't matter how many dexes come out, someone will always say "it doesn't show THIS aspect of chaos". And they'd be right.

Still, game balance has got to mean something. Every time you add a 'sub-list' you have to balance against every other army out there. Thus, while I think the differences in 'degree' that each chaos dex would represent (they will all still have largely the same stat-line... we're basically talking some switching on the FOC or army-wide special rules... they're all chaos space marines despite differing 'preferences'), the testing they would require WOULD change on an order of magnitude each and every time. This is the entire reason why 'sub-lists' have been dropped altogether. It was IMO the primary force behind codex-creep.

The resources are simply not there. At least, not for each and ever legion.

I think the point raised about expectations coming out of 3.5 is a good one.

If that were not now the 'benchmark' we were using, I think everyone would have quite different views on all of this.

I think it is important also to note that there are certain things that don't require a special rule to represent them. Night lords is a good example. Apparently they like scaring people. What could this possibly mean as a special rule?

In addition, I think people might consider looking outside the CSM codex for Undivided legions (the one that largely eschew the 'gribbly' side). If you want to continue using many FA choices and 'surprising' people, why not go for a SM list with the White Scars special character. Plenty of outflanking and lots of bikes would be pretty sweet - also, you could get some pretty hard jump-troops. Alpha Legion could do the same. Shrike could also be used by NL... to represent their propensity and desire to fall among their enemies sowing destruction and fear.

Certainly, it is not ideal. But again, Imperial Fists are supposed to be consummate siege warriors as well, and the rules for them do basically nothing to represent this (okay... stubborn). Iron hands have a similar difficulty and get only a 'master of the forge'.

In sum, it is unwise to expect that legions get entire new lists based on what is essentially a propensity toward attacking in a particular manner. That is largely up to the player. It becomes a question of where the onus for making 'accurate' lists lies: on the player or on the rules.

If we were to see cult-specific lists, I would not be surprised if people became outraged that certain things just stopped being available to them. Remember when plague-marine lists couldn't take any heavy weapons. It would be a case of GW very strictly defining what the legion could and could not do. To me, this is not very chaotic. For instance, what if there simply wasn't a WE list? They are often figured as simply too crazed to operate as a coherent force on their own. At that point, players would have NO recourse to the flexibility of the 'main' list if they thought that the 'cult' list 'failed' them. We'd be back to square one.

I've said it about the Daemons list as well: often the idea of a 'warband' is better for chaos than the 'one-god' approach. The allegiances of individual followers are what it is about. Legion structure, except in a few cases, is largely de-emphasized and individual leaders are left to vie for the favour of the Gods. This is why chaos is so enticing. It's about YOU, not your chapter/legion. For those that have maintained a stricter organization, for whatever reason, I'd say that either the CSM or one of the many SM codexes should be enough... for now.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor

sliganian
15-10-2008, 03:39
Weird Thought:
Don't do a whole Codex of an Army.

Do a Codex of Chaos Special Characters only that would allow you to build different armies from the base CSM Codex. Sort of take the HQ selection ideas from the current Marine dex and give it it's own space.

Lord-Caerolion
15-10-2008, 03:39
Dr.Clock, you do realise that we've already suggested using the Marine codex for Chaos? There seems to be some staunch opposition, but I really can't see why.

Dr.Clock
15-10-2008, 04:21
Absolutely... and I agree - as posted.

Sliganian's idea is good as well. I had thought that the inclusion of a few more SCs in the dex would have been better, but a sort of 'rogue's gallery' book would be pretty sweet.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Ddraiglais
15-10-2008, 05:51
@Dr Clock,

I think if they covererd all nine legions, renegades, and LatD in some form; then most people would be happy.

I do agree that game balance is an issue. There are ways around game balance. They could do lists that were't tournament legal. They'd be o.k. for friendly games and pick up games though. Sliganian suggested special characters. I wouldn't be opposed to that if they did it right. The Loyalists get five codices and customability through special characters on top of that. If it can be done for SM, then it can be done for CSM.

After 3.5 I expected a nerf. However, I didn't expect them to take all the flavor away. They could have balanced what needed balancing without taking away all the options.

I'm not sure. Other legions lost daemons that have always been with their legions. 3.5 did rase the bar on what us Chaos players expected for the Undivided legions.

NL could be represented by the flank rule. Throw in something for speed and maybe let them buy something that would make one unit a round be forced to check LD. Those are just some random ideas, but it would fit with the NL. Let GW playtest those and drop any that aren't balanced.

There are other threads where Loyalist players have had fits at the suggestion of using their holy codex to represent CSM. I do see some of theiri arguments. Getting ATSKNF for my legion doesn't sit well with me.

The Imperial Fish pale in comparison to the Iron Warriors when it comes to siege warfare!!! :D

Some of it is up to the player. However, it's just not fun for some of us anymore. I really enjoyed playing with the 3.5 dex. I came up with new lists. I started traitor guard. I read both IW novels. I was really into it. I don't get excited about my army anymore. That started when the new dex came out. As I've said on all the other threads talking about the new dex or getting legion codices; if it weren't for Apocalypse, I probably would have quit the hobby. Having a bunch of las cannons, vindicators, and oblits isn't quite the same as having an Iron Warriors army. All I want is a couple of special rules that would make me feel like my Iron Warriors were the masters of siege warfare that they're suppose to be.

I'm in the camp that is more than willing to give certain things up to get special rules. You can keep your daemons. The only cult troops I want are bezerkers. That's part of how the Iron Warriors operate. Certain legions aren't fond of heavy weapons, others don't use rhinos as much, etc. That's part of the flavor of those legions. As far as being chaotic, that's not how Chaos is. Chaos is chaotic in the sense that it is constant warfare. I'll stop now before I bring up daemon weapons and possesed.

The daemon dex is almost a bigger slap in the face (of fluff) than the CSM dex, but I won't get into that here. Getting to the individual leader bit, that might be true for some legions; but it's definately not true for all of them. The IW and WB are definately intact. I'm pretty sure most of the others are as well. The TS have two large groups (Magnus and Ahriman). The AL aren't together, but they are still a legion. It's just that they operate differently. I'm not sure about the DG, EC, and NL. The BL all follow Abby. That pretty much leaves the WE that are definately broken up.


At this point I'd be happy with any fix. I'd be happier than a pig in... if they did a couple of codices. I'd be fine if they did one big legion codex. I'd settle for WD/PDF articles. How they do it isn't a huge deal either. If they do full blown lists, that's fine. If they introduce special characters, that's a great way to go. I just want my legion to have something other than a paint job to differentiate them from the other eight legions and renegades.

IMO Chaos does need at least four codices to be done right. I don't think that's too much to ask for considering there's less differences among the SM chapters, and they get five codices AND characters that change the feel of their armies.

holmcross
09-12-2008, 06:44
When the new CSM codex came out, I was so dissapointed with it I ended up selling/giving away all my Emperor's Children. The newest codex took out everything that I thought set CSM apart from being your run of the mill SM army.

One book, CSM: Traitor Legions. Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Thousand Sons and Death Guard. Bring back legion-specific wargear like the 3rd edition book had. Give cult armies the ancient enemy restrictions, and let them field their daemons from the daemon codex.

IW, WB, AL and NL could be released in a chapter approved release. Obviously it would be nice to get their own codex, but I'd much rather see the big four (even though I love alpha legion).

and release a noise marine boxed set with enough sonic blasters, god damn it! The current Emperor's Children boxed set is one of the most pathetic I've ever seen.

totgeboren
09-12-2008, 07:25
The frenzied slaughters of the Word Bearers, fanatically dedicated to "Blood for the Blood God"

Could this be compared with the Space Wolves hunt for the Fallen? Those Space Wolves had better get to keep their interrogator chaplains when the new codex comes out!

No offense, I just cant understand why so many people get the Word Bearers and the World Eaters mixed up? Ok, both names start with a "Wor", but after that its not really much more.

oh, and on-topic. You do have some good ideas, but what I think would be more realistic is for Gw to release 2 codices.

Something like "Gods of Chaos" thats essentially 4 30-page minidexes crammed into one, and the second is "Slaves to Darkness" that gives you rules for representing undivided legions and maybe, just maybe, LatD.

Bah, who am I kidding? GW are quite clear that they want each player to have as much freedom in using any of their models as possible (no more 0-1 choices, no more God-animosity, no more chapter-specific special characters nor points-size limits for when you get to use them), so I have a hard time imagining that GW would release a chaos codex that doesn't allow them to pick and choose whatever, regardless of old fluff.

If a player want a warband consisting of Plague Marines and Thousand Sons lead by a DP of Khorne and a DP of Slannesh then so be it. Its more money in their pockets.


So, what im trying to say is that this "5 chaos codexes" (or even two chaos codexes) will most likely never happen. :P


I myself feel like they are shooting themselves in the foot. GW have got two things going for them. First its the background, since that is what makes people see the models as "kewl", instead of just "oh, nice craftsmanship".

Secondly its the quality of their models. But as said, what sells the models is the background, the role-playing aspect if you may.

Sacrificing the background is sacrificing their trademark and the reason people buy their stuff in the first place.

the1stpip
09-12-2008, 07:48
Just expand the chaos codex, rather like 3.5, and add the appenidices.

That made each of the legions interesting enough, without saying 'You are Khornate, I forbid you a Havoc Squad.

Oh, and bring back LatD.

Hrogoff the Destructor
09-12-2008, 07:57
They should have been divided according to god:

Khorne armies can have only Khorne based units (so Khorne daemons and marines).

Nurgle armies can have only Nurgle based units.

Slaanesh armies can have only Slaanesh based units.

Tzeentch armies can have only Tzeentch based units.

Undivided daemons can only have daemonic units, but it's not restricted by god. So no Chaos Space Marines whatsoever.

Undivided Marines can have marines of any type, but no daemons.

That's how I would have done it, then again, it would have been a nightmare to assemble and design.

Vaktathi
09-12-2008, 08:01
Personally, I'd like to see each Legion have it's own army list, but I'd be fine with just having a Codex: Cult Legions and Codex: Traitor Legions (undivided/undecided/undedicated) as well.

Noserenda
09-12-2008, 09:00
Exactly, a 3 Codex Cycle seems best, especially as there is a lot of overlap between the various books. In the same way you could once again combine the Angels Dexes fairly easily.

ChrisMurray
09-12-2008, 13:29
I think one codex, the same as it is now, but under units have a few more options for the gods ie: Terminators x points per model, may upgrade to plague terminator for + x points. Plague terminators have feel no pain and poisoned weapons.

This would solve the problem. I have the 3.5 dex and the latest one and I like both but I like the new one more. I especially like that you can take mixed forces now, ie: nurgle and slanesh troops as I like the idea that if I collected chaos I could represent a force where the gods are working together (and then would fight over the spoils of war afterwards.)

gunbunny242
09-12-2008, 14:11
I think it would need at least 2 codexes to cover just the basics of what people want

Codex:Legions - All the original traitor legions/Cults
Codex:Renegades- LATD and recently turned marines

Legions is basically a rewrite of 3.5 and Renegades would be an expanded version of the EoT list mixed with the current dex, with maybe some current SM bits in.

This gives pure fluff-fest armies or odds and sods warbands.
Unfortunately the only way I can see GW doing this is the dreaded Special Character. You know, Kharn lets you give X so and so and makes Y do this. Not the solution that most of us want. I want to take a lord that I have created and equipped who is a World Eater or a Death Guard and is part of the cult, and who leads a fluffy but playable army.

qwertywraith
09-12-2008, 15:47
ie: nurgle and slanesh troops as I like the idea that if I collected chaos I could represent a force where the gods are working together (and then would fight over the spoils of war afterwards.)

You could do that before. 3.5 didn't stop you from taking a mixed force, it just put restrictions on it. Perhaps those restrictions were a touch too restrictive, but still.

I think the current dex along with some white dwarf, blood angels, style codices are all you need. It would be great to get full sized codices for each legion, or even 2-3 books containing multiple legions each, but it seems unnecessary.


Bah, who am I kidding? GW are quite clear that they want each player to have as much freedom in using any of their models as possible (no more 0-1 choices, no more God-animosity, no more chapter-specific special characters nor points-size limits for when you get to use them), so I have a hard time imagining that GW would release a chaos codex that doesn't allow them to pick and choose whatever, regardless of old fluff.

One thing GW seem to have forgotten is that restrictions INCREASE creativity, because you have to work within certain boundaries. Complete freedom may make it a bit easier to make internal balance (not that they did in the chaos dex, see spawn, dreads, lash), but it can stifle creativity because of it's boundlessness. It's nice they are encouraging players to make their own fallen chapter "Emo traitor terror marines of nurgle and khorne" or whatever, but a MAJOR part of the appeal for me was feeling like my army was a part of a much bigger story. Why do you think so many Marine players play major chapters? Why does the new marine dex include special characters from major chapters and not "Joe Awesome Fists" of the Shooting Stars Chapter?

totgeboren
09-12-2008, 16:07
One thing GW seem to have forgotten is that restrictions INCREASE creativity, because you have to work within certain boundaries. Complete freedom may make it a bit easier to make internal balance (not that they did in the chaos dex, see spawn, dreads, lash), but it can stifle creativity because of it's boundlessness. It's nice they are encouraging players to make their own fallen chapter "Emo traitor terror marines of nurgle and khorne" or whatever, but a MAJOR part of the appeal for me was feeling like my army was a part of a much bigger story. Why do you think so many Marine players play major chapters? Why does the new marine dex include special characters from major chapters and not "Joe Awesome Fists" of the Shooting Stars Chapter?


Well, I agree with you, but GW has shown with the latest codices that they don't. :P

Lexington
09-12-2008, 16:48
Honestly, I'm not sure why there's all this talk of "splitting up" Chaos, or giving different Legions and Gods different books. While I've got gripes with the Chaos list (generic Daemons, appalling internal balance, etc.), the structure is perfectly in tune with what a Chaos Space Marine army should be. Not that I'd be against a sort of mega-'Dex with ally rules, as suggested by the eminently sensible MvS, but I don't see it as necessary to make a Chaos army that's faithful to the background. If you take away the silly, restrictive Legion rules, this Codex is, structurally, quite similar to the 3.5, 3rd and even 2nd Edition Chaos Space Marine army lists.

Ironically, the only thing that cannot be faithfully represented with this new Codex is a post-Heresy renegade army. Give them a book.


...while its damn near impossible, for example, to represent Space Wolves with Codex: Space Marines.
Seriously? Aside from the awesome background, plus a few in-game fiddly bits like Wolf Priest abilities, I hardly see the reason for an independent Space Wolves Codex anymore. The new list can represent them on the tabletop almost flawlessly.

Orkeosaurus
09-12-2008, 19:13
In my opinion:
Codex: Legions of the Gods
Codex: Legions Undivided
Codex: The Lost and the Damned