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Latro
13-10-2008, 18:28
I did a search, but couldn't find anything about this question, so here it comes:

What happens if you cast Invocation of Nehek on a new unit of zombies just summoned with Raise Dead?

A newly raised unit starts without a command group and the first thing the Invocation summons is the command group. So would it provide a musician and banner for each new unit of Zombies it is cast on? The VC book doesn't provide a clear answer on this.


:cool:

(PS ... and where did all the FAQ's go? Can't find them on that new GW site.)

SolarHammer
13-10-2008, 18:37
It only raises the command group if there was one initially.

The issue you raised would apply equally to skeleton units you started the game with if you simply didn't buy them command.

That said, it's obvious that you can't raise something back if it wasn't there in the first place. The language is pretty specific ("First the champion is resurrected then other command models.") and I defy you to resurrect something that never existed as opposed to something that's dead.

So no command for raised zombies, and no free command for cheap vampire players that want to raise a command into their units rather than purchasing it.

Archon.42
13-10-2008, 18:37
the command is only raised if previously killed during the game
.42

narrativium
13-10-2008, 18:41
The Errata are here: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=500004&pIndex=2&aId=3000006&start=3 (I've got it bookmarked now.)

Latro
13-10-2008, 19:01
It only raises the command group if there was one initially.

The issue you raised would apply equally to skeleton units you started the game with if you simply didn't buy them command.

That said, it's obvious that you can't raise something back if it wasn't there in the first place. The language is pretty specific ("First the champion is resurrected then other command models.") and I defy you to resurrect something that never existed as opposed to something that's dead.

So no command for raised zombies, and no free command for cheap vampire players that want to raise a command into their units rather than purchasing it.

I know the wording of the spell, I also know that the words used do not carry a clear definition when it comes to the rules ... which is why I'm asking this, to see if there's something more solid than personal interpretation on this.

After all, if you can raise a new unit from corpses that happen to be where they're needed, you could also raise a corpse waving a long pole or banging two bones together.

By the way, it's more a double-edged sword than a clear cut advantage for the VC ... would you like having 100 VP banners in any newly and fragile summoned unit of zombies once you go beyond the first raising?


:cool:

Latro
13-10-2008, 19:01
The Errata are here: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=500004&pIndex=2&aId=3000006&start=3 (I've got it bookmarked now.)

Thanks!


:cool:

Lord Dan
13-10-2008, 23:28
I know the wording of the spell, I also know that the words used do not carry a clear definition when it comes to the rules ... which is why I'm asking this, to see if there's something more solid than personal interpretation on this.

After all, if you can raise a new unit from corpses that happen to be where they're needed, you could also raise a corpse waving a long pole or banging two bones together.



I think it's fairly clear-cut, actually, noting SolarHammer's explanation. It doesn't say you can, so you can't. I think the only confusion would come from expecting to see a rule for it, and not finding one. Then I would imagine some people might assume this was a mistake, and then assume they obviously intended to write said rule, and then perhaps interpret the given rules as being a little hazy...

As for your second comment, it would be just as easy to raise a steam tank constructed of bones and mud. However you can't do that either, because the book doesn't specifically say you can.

Latro
14-10-2008, 05:13
As for your second comment, it would be just as easy to raise a steam tank constructed of bones and mud. However you can't do that either, because the book doesn't specifically say you can.

Well, if you overlook the minor differences such as:

A. there is no spell that raises an undead steamtank ... while there is a spell that raises new undead units.

B. there is no spell that raises an undead steamtank ... while there is a spell that raises command groups in undead units.

But apart from that it's exactly the same, you're right.


:cool:

SolarHammer
14-10-2008, 06:28
No. There isn't one of those either. There is a spell that resurrects a command group in undead units.

Latro
14-10-2008, 06:41
No. There isn't one of those either. There is a spell that resurrects a command group in undead units.

Which is (funny enough) the reason why the question came up in the first place. There is nothing in the rules that makes a clear distinction between "raise" and "resurrect" ... they're more a kind of fluff-word used to describe something than an actual word with a rules-definition attached to it.

Anyway, what it comes down to is basicly:

- there's no clear ruling on it (official or unofficial)
- the accepted view would be to only raise pre-existing command groups


:cool:

DeathlessDraich
14-10-2008, 09:03
Hi Latro

Still loyal to your VC, I see. :) and probably massacring too many opponents.

Consider:
Zombies - They only have Standards and Musicians.
ION states the champion is resurrected first.

It wouldn't be right to create a Zombie champion through IoN.
Therefore by the same ruling, I'm sure you would agree that this offers some support for your rule :
to "only raise pre-existing command groups".

Latro
14-10-2008, 17:05
Still loyal to your VC, I see. :) and probably massacring too many opponents.


What can I say ... the Undead have always been my first love!

At this tournament I was judge though and only played two battles due to an uneven number of players. Snorri for the win!


:cool:

Spirit
15-10-2008, 00:30
I go for the common sense approach that you need to buy them to get them.

Otherwise ALL command groups for undead are free.

I agree that going just by the wording, you "raise any command models first" and nothing about them being there beforehand is mentioned.

BUT

I see this as silly, and i doubt you will get many sportsman points for pulling it off.

Crispian25
15-10-2008, 13:11
Raise and resurrect mean two different things in game terms. Sure, in real life, raising someone from the dead could be akin to resurrecting them, but in game terms, it is a little more clear cut. To raise something is taking something from nothing, ie creating a unit where there was none. To resurrect something in the course of a game means to bring back something which was there previously.

No offense intended in anything I said, just looking at rules through the definition of the words using the framework of a game of WHFB.

Latro
15-10-2008, 14:31
Raise and resurrect mean two different things in game terms. Sure, in real life, raising someone from the dead could be akin to resurrecting them, but in game terms, it is a little more clear cut. To raise something is taking something from nothing, ie creating a unit where there was none. To resurrect something in the course of a game means to bring back something which was there previously.


In that case I'm of course very interested in the page where you found that!


:cool:

Spirit
15-10-2008, 15:28
Raise and resurrect mean two different things in game terms. Sure, in real life, raising someone from the dead could be akin to resurrecting them, but in game terms, it is a little more clear cut. To raise something is taking something from nothing, ie creating a unit where there was none. To resurrect something in the course of a game means to bring back something which was there previously.

No offense intended in anything I said, just looking at rules through the definition of the words using the framework of a game of WHFB.

You cannot look at the rules like this because it opens up hundreds of ambiguities elsewhere in the rules. Also, the WHFB rules do not define these terms anywhere in the framework, i would also like to see your reasoning from a rules standpoint.

To take one example, the "HELM" of commandment is a HELM, thus, using your logic, must be armour+a magic item= magic armour. Which means it is your sole piece of armour allowed for your vampire.

This just isn't the case. If the rules DEFINE ressurect and raise, then your point stands, but they do not, which is why people are always unsure.


Having said all of that bear in mind i am on your side of the argument, but simply from a common sense standpoint, not a rules one.

SolarHammer
15-10-2008, 15:32
The entire text of the spell talks about "regaining" wounds.

"The Wounds in a unit are regained in a strict order."

You can't "re-"gain something that wasn't there in the first place even notwithstanding the ability to increase units beyond their starting size.

Latro
15-10-2008, 15:51
Perhaps I should explain myself a bit more here. I sometimes have to judge local tournaments and in these situations it's of course important to know the rules ... especially in cases where the rules aren't very clear.

Such as this example about the Invocation. All we have is personal interpretations and a "gut feeling" about how it should be.

If I would present that as a clear rule to the players, especially players who enjoy squeezing the rules for maximum result, there would be an endless debate about it ... and probably a lot of muttering as well. It's a fact that it's not a very clear and well defined rule, but I can still give them a very clear ruling on it based on common view and game balance. As long as you don't pretend it to be something it's not, then most players will accept it and play on.

Hence my initial question and response. Just checking if I had somehow missed a FAQ or Errata and what people think it should be.


:cool: