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ThunderShrike.
14-10-2008, 07:56
Much of the background points to iron hands wishing to replace themselves with machine:


-This leads to alot of suspicion: are they tainted by the C'tan? And how *Good* are the iron hands really? Compared to say, the Salamander's chapter.

Unclejo
14-10-2008, 09:54
Much of the background points to iron hands wishing to replace themselves with machine:


-This leads to alot of suspicion: are they tainted by the C'tan? And how *Good* are the iron hands really? Compared to say, the Salamander's chapter.

Define good.

The Iron Hands see flesh as weak, machines as strong. Humanity is not up to the task, and should therefore be improved until it is.

TheOverlord
14-10-2008, 10:09
Somehow I find it hilarious that the entirety of the Iron Hands have so many bionics. Do they stink so bad that they get their body parts chopped up so regularly that they have to replace their limbs regularly with machines to have near every seargent and captain with bionics? Or maybe as part of their daily ritual they chop off a body part and stick a metal limb onto it?

:)

abasio
14-10-2008, 10:27
The adepts of mars do the same thing. Most of their bodies are augmented to the degree that there is very little humanity left. Do they get the same suspicion?

Unclejo
14-10-2008, 10:30
Somehow I find it hilarious that the entirety of the Iron Hands have so many bionics. Do they stink so bad that they get their body parts chopped up so regularly that they have to replace their limbs regularly with machines to have near every seargent and captain with bionics? Or maybe as part of their daily ritual they chop off a body part and stick a metal limb onto it?

:)

You find it hilarious that a chapter which has firsthand experience of the frailty of humanity and even theyre fellow marines has chosen to forego theyre own humanity to attain "purity"?

Iron Hands don't have bionics implanted because they are crap at fighting, they have bionics implanted because an arm made of plasteel and adamantium is better than one made of flesh. That is the whole point of the chapter, flesh is weak, machines are strong. Machines do not turn traitor. Machines dont give into despair. Machines do not get tired.

As a fascistic society that already mindwipes and cyber-augements its citizens, I find it more humourous that the Iron Hands are seemingly in a minority.

Lord Malorne
14-10-2008, 10:32
It stems from the perceived weakness of there brother legions (chapters nowadays) what with the horus heresy and all, that really shook all the marines to there core and has lead to a hatred of weakness of the Iron Hands, so it is not so much a bionic obsession as a hatred for the weakness of the flesh.


Machines do not turn traitor.

The Iron men ;).

ThunderShrike.
14-10-2008, 10:33
It seems that bionics are vulnerable to EMP weapons, giant magnets, and the lavas of mt doom. But thats about it.


Blessed be the flesh.

Unclejo
14-10-2008, 10:35
The Iron men ;).

What? Please explain.

Lord Malorne
14-10-2008, 10:39
40k lore aboot the AI's turning traitor and kicking human ass.

Unclejo
14-10-2008, 10:41
40k lore aboot the AI's turning traitor and kicking human ass.

Never heard of that before, as always a quick search on Lexicanum fills in the blanks for me!

TheOverlord
14-10-2008, 11:04
Actually I do :) One reason I can think of for them to do it is if they lose limbs in battle, if so that means the must lose quite a lot if so many of them are now walking hospital cases. And the other is the way the Mechanicus does it, in which I imagine them cutting off their Emperor given limbs like it was some kinda emo self-mutilating chapter full of gelled haired make-up wearing guys... in metal limbs :D

Honestly they are to me the most funny of all the chapters because of these 2 reasons.

jimbobodoll
14-10-2008, 11:08
Never heard of that before, as always a quick search on Lexicanum fills in the blanks for me!

They're from a Gaunts Ghosts novel. Auto robot producing machine from aeons ago gets discovered... seems fine, actually been corrupted by chaos, produces chaos robots.. potential to destroy the universe with chaos fueled infinite amounts of robots... You get the point...

Simon Sez
14-10-2008, 11:26
Actually I do :) One reason I can think of for them to do it is if they lose limbs in battle, if so that means the must lose quite a lot if so many of them are now walking hospital cases. And the other is the way the Mechanicus does it, in which I imagine them cutting off their Emperor given limbs like it was some kinda emo self-mutilating chapter full of gelled haired make-up wearing guys... in metal limbs :D

Honestly they are to me the most funny of all the chapters because of these 2 reasons.

. . .

I'm not sure you're getting it.

They don't only replace limbs lost in battle, nor do they do it in some sad bid for attention. They wish to be the strongest purest fighting force at the Emperors disposal, any way you slice it bionic limbs do a better job than their fleshy equivalents, in the same way the AdMech sees the machine as holy and uses extensive augmentation to come closer to the machine (plus the brain implants create huge memory storage, very helpful for a scientist)

The Judge
14-10-2008, 11:27
Well, they were from background a lot earlier and lot more canonical than Gaunt's Ghosts, but First and Only was the first book to have them in properly.

EDIT: @jimbobodoll

setekhite
14-10-2008, 11:50
The adepts of mars do the same thing. Most of their bodies are augmented to the degree that there is very little humanity left. Do they get the same suspicion?

Absolutely - check out the Necron Codex for how heavily elements of the AM have been infiltrated, or the rogue Mechanicus adepts in Medusa V. However, there is AFAIK no evidence of Marines with loyalty to the C'tan. The Iron Hands seem to subscribe to cybernetic augmentation as a tool to better serve the Emperor, but their ultimate loyalty seems clear.

There seems a clear line between the 'benevolent' Machine-god of Imperial doctrine and the machine supremacy doctrine of the most fanatical elements (those who serve the C'tan, for example, or embrace Chaos). It's well expressed in Caves of Ice where the Machine-god is a perceived as a protective spirit looking after humanity, as opposed to the cold, controlling machinery of the Necrons.

TheOverlord
14-10-2008, 12:06
Oh I get it alright. But the images I get from seeing an army of nothing but bionics makes me giggle.

Silly Iron Hands.

Guess this goes for the Iron Warriors too, but well they're dead 'ard, so the image isn't quite as strong.

Xisor
14-10-2008, 12:20
Why does the bionic thing make you giggle?

It's 40k, and these are Marines who're closely affiliated with the Cult Mechanicus (to the same magnitude as the Salamanders [extensive trade] and the Praetors of Orpheus [extensive input] but probably to a different degree [a matter of shared faith]) so it's highly likely that:
1- They're happy about losing limbs. They'll fight in tougher conditions because they're not afraid* to lose bits of themselves. (Most marines aren't, but Iron Hands are surely even less concerned)
2- They bionics are probably tougher, more durable, reliable and generally better than the original. It's not like being given a prosthetic arm.

The Agenda of the Iron Hands

Fearsome purge of weakness. This is so much so that they venerate the machine. The Praetors of Orpheus and the Mentors strike me as those chapters particularly concerned with knowledge, for the Iron Hands it strikes me as a matter of faith and belief ('the flesh is weak'). [The Salamanders' link is through shared appreciation of crafting and having stonking great big wads of cash to buy cool gizmos with]

With that in mind then, I wonder where the Iron Hands rest on the 'Schism' of the Mechanicus. Their stance is surely loyal/orthodox Mechanicus, but how close to the Omnissiah are they? The Quest for Knowledge? The Dragon Heresy? Perhaps they stand opposed to both the 'Dark Mechanicum' (those who sided with Horus) and to the C'tanicus (those noted by Corestwain as worshipping the 'true' Machine God).

In that regard, the Iron Hands are loyal to Imperially Martian Technology, but ought not to give a damn about the C'tanicus other than hating it. Weakness must be purged.

(In this light the IH are about as 'good' as the Dark Angels in contrast to the Salamanders. Tolerance of witches? Tolerance of mutants? Tolerance of heretics? Have none of it! To that extent then I see the Iron Hands as a bit of a fusion of the Night Lords , the Dark Angels and the Black Templars. Religious zealots with a lot of power and the skill to make things happen.

With the Ecclessiarchy, I imagine they don't trust one another one ounce [i]but I think the Ecclessiarchy recognise them to be a very effective tool for bringing sensibility to an unruly system. The old 'decimate them, yes...kill one tenth of the population' is surely a routine Iron Hands operating procedure.

Scion of Ferrus
14-10-2008, 13:04
It seems that bionics are vulnerable to EMP weapons, giant magnets, and the lavas of mt doom. But thats about it.

Blessed be the flesh.

Bionics with EMP Shielding!!!!!:chrome:

Destroy All Flesh!!!!:chrome:

Scion of Ferrus
14-10-2008, 13:07
The Iron men ;).[/QUOTE]

Iron Men NO.

Steel Marines YES!!!!:chrome:

Assimilate!!!:angel:

Faustburg
14-10-2008, 13:21
Check the Necron codex again, modifying yourself with bionics is not being a good follower of the C'tan, in fact it is the opposite, they don't approve of it.

Necrons are not cybernetic robots, they are metal aliens. The Iron Men were not Necrons. The Chaos Androids of Space Crusade and Epic (quite sure they never had an actual 40K entry in any lists) are only connected to the Iron Men because Abnett decided to fuse the concepts.

MvS
14-10-2008, 14:00
Indeed. The Iron men were very Dune: Butlerian Jihad type entities. Sentient machines who chose not to be slaves anymore, or perhaps who decided they were much better than their 'fleshy' counterparts and destined to rule.

One way or another, it's not the same as Chaos warped/possessed machines. :)

Iracundus
14-10-2008, 14:20
Actually I don't think it is ever objectively stated who started the conflict, the Iron Men or humans. All we have are patchy legends by the victor (humans) so bias is entirely possible, even likely. For all we know, the Iron Men could have fought back in self defense against a anti-AI neo-Luddite backlash.

PondaNagura
14-10-2008, 14:54
pff, you think with all the bionics they add anyways, why even bother becoming a marine.
they could just as easily vat-grow already gen-mod humans, and then just tweak their physique later with bionics?(well that's what my skitarii do)...really the reason i can imagine is the black carapace interface with the armor.

Lord Malorne
14-10-2008, 14:58
Probably bescause a single bionic digit is worth a hundred lives to the Ad Mech :p.

Making a bionic dude is beyond the Ad mech ATM, with only a few high ranking Techno Magi (IIRC) able to be practicly machine.

PondaNagura
14-10-2008, 15:06
what, they make them all the time?! vatgrown servitors for one.
the admech is about 'bionic dudes', especially if it lets them flaunt what knowledge they actually do know.
besides this is iron hands, who have quite a bit more flexibility in their resources.

Lord Malorne
14-10-2008, 15:11
Yes and servitors are far superior to a spacmarine :rolleyes:.

Ad Mech flaunt Knowlege?! are you mad? they don't tell anyone anything.

PondaNagura
14-10-2008, 15:29
never said they were, just saying that with all the bionic replacements that the IH do, it's kind of silly for them to even make full-body marines in the first place.
"oh, your third lung collapsed :< well that's okay, we'll just whip you up a better one".
"got those new eyes you wanted, they can see in spectrums you couldn't even imagine with those old organic ones"
"adamantium codpiece"
...they're almost as bad as as an ork's mad dok

seriously they could just go half way on some of the implants, replacing them from the get-go with bionic ones. (granted that would be heresy, but sometimes you can't let little things stand in the way of progress).

as for flaunting, to and within their own organization of course.

kaffeezombie
14-10-2008, 18:25
Someone please tell me why exactly Iron Hands are supposed to be "emo" now?!

If you're looking for Necron hints, you might actually take a closer look at their Primarch. Ferrus Manus got himself some kind of shiny metal arms after fighting a strange machine monster, coating his arms with "liquid metal" (sounds familiar?). Otherwise than that, I can't really remember any hints of Necronage concerning the IH.

Oh, and if I remember correctly, there were rumors they replace some of their casualties with entirely automatic suits of armor...only rumors, though. Might be because older IH-Marines look like half a hydraulic workshop, anyway (hell, I never understood why 40k-bionics usually come without any sign of functional armor...).

Mind you, this was all before IH turned into "Six dreads in one list-spam", so I wouldn't really know.

biggreengribbly
14-10-2008, 20:00
To Draw attention to the fact. The more armour you put over a bionic, the less it starts looking like a bionic, and the more it starts to just blend in with the rest o the power armour. I mean I always imagined the armour being big enough to fit Over the bionic limb, rather than being replaced by it entirely. I mean how oversized would that limb look on the Marine when he took his armour off?

I'm also in the camp that never understood why Iron Hands bother with the whole biological shenanigins that makes a Marine a Marine, when in an ideal world they wouldn't want to possess a scrap of the biological matter that makes them a Marine to begin with...

Khaine's Messenger
14-10-2008, 20:25
The Iron Hands aren't capable of having an "agenda." They're ruled by a fractious council of equals struggling to get one ups on each other, constantly seeking to prove one's political rivals or inferiors are "weak." Because that's the way Manus would have wanted it. At most, they may be considered pawns. But if they find out that you're using them as pawns, they're going to be about as raving mad as a brain in a bucket connected to a weapon of mass destruction can get. This strains even their relationship with the AdMech.

One might get the feeling that the only reason the Iron Hands hang out with the Imperium and the AdMech at all is because their Primarch was a fanatical believer in the unity of Mankind in the face of external threats. If those threats dissolve, mankind's back to the state of open war with itself that Manus saw fit to encourage on his homeworld. Competition breeds strength.


Much of the background points to iron hands wishing to replace themselves with machine

They want to be strong so that they will give a proper fight at the End Times when their (dead as dead can be) Primarch returns to lead them. For the past ten thousand years, the path to strength has been in the machine. Whether this will hold true is up for debate, but at this point it's pretty academic. The self-reinforcing patterns they've built into the chapter aren't likely to let go. The rivalries encouraged by the Primarch sadly don't leave these things open for discussion.


And how *Good* are the iron hands really? Compared to say, the Salamander's chapter.

The Iron Hands operate with a coldness of purpose and action that makes the Marines Malevolent look like mildly belligerant children who don't clean up their messes. If it were possible for them to be more grimdark than the Dark Angels, they would be. The only thing holding them back is their obsession with weakness in all its forms. Constantly having to couch tactical and strategic decisions in the language of strength is taxing, but even their Primarch had to do it.

PondaNagura
14-10-2008, 20:38
hmm, actually it makes me wonder if they go out of their way to look for really tough foes, forged in the crucible of battle..and if they do end up losing a limb it's because they fought something tougher, and thus must toughen themselves in order to conquer it. it's not a matter of them 'losing', it's more a matter of them putting themselves in harm's way.

Unclejo
15-10-2008, 08:18
The fact that the Iron Hands primarch went into battle with a wrench:wtf: makes them the biggest space badasses on the block.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/9/93/Ferrus_Manus.jpg

ChaosTicket
15-10-2008, 14:12
Iron hands are very loyal, but their organisation is based on self-sufficent companies rather than specialty designated companies that say, the UltraMarines use. They have a anomaly in their psyches that causes them to become cyborgs.

I think that rather than be want to worship or emulate the Necrontyr, they want to hunt them down, as Necrons are largely slaves to their mechanical bodies, a weakness, and Iron Hands hate weakness.