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FarseerMatt
14-10-2008, 12:07
Are there people out there who DON'T think C.S Goto deserves all the hate he gets? I see a lot of casual Goto-bashing going about on the forum, but the one book of his that I've read (Warrior Coven) I rather liked.

Now being a Bernard Cornwell fan I like the fast, punchy writing style of authors such as Dan Abnett, but I reckon that Goto's more complicated style - occasionally hard to read but brilliantly descriptive - can be cool too. Okay, so sometimes he gets a bit overexcited with his similies and some of his fight scenes (jetbike chases and a Dark Reaper exarch sniping a reaver from halfway across a biodome were awesome, an assault marine spinning in circles to lob grenades was not), but the description comes together in a way some of the other works I've read do not.

In terms of story I really liked a lot of it, particularly the bits involving the Ulthwe Eldar, which to be honest made the book for me far more than the Deathwatch or the Inquisition. The physical descriptions of the craftworld itself were spot on for me, and I can believe that there are secrets and power struggles within the Craftworlds (after all, if the Seers are doing their job right they're not going to see much contact with other races, so who else are they going to compete with?) which I feel is not mutually exclusive with their more commonly thought-of ethic of banding together in times of crisis.

The only thing that genuinely bugged me (aside from the fact that an Eldar farseer would never yell "Bring it on!") was the whole Dark Eldar living on a planet rather than the webway and being in league with Slaaneshi demons thing, with the Ulthwe Eldar actively helping them summon the demon. On the other hand you could argue that:

1) There is so little Dark Eldar background to work with that it's more GW's fault than Goto's if he gets them wrong. I'll also admit that I'm biased towards the alternative view of DE that they rather than "giving" souls to Slaanesh directly they consume them themselves to keep themselves alive and thus safe from Her for a bit longer, by replacing their own essence as it is slowly leeched (due to their decadent lifestyle, which they continue due to it being the way they acted before the Fall and they see as their birthright, rather than direct Slaanesh-worship. Though of course the two are technically similar because these are the kind of actions that created Her in the first place).

2) I like to think that Eldrad's master plan was even more complicated than Ashok's hypothesised version, as in he really WAS intending the Deathwatch to stop the demon being summoned, he and Thea'akzi were deceiving the Dark Eldar (which is already heavily implied by the way he leaves his two Seers as a "surprise" for Lelith), he TOLD Bhurolyn and Xelkisor to boast to Ashok that the Ulthwe had betrayed him and were working with the Dark Eldar PURELY to make him mad enough to unlock his Blood Angels rage and become powerful enough to actually defeat Lelith, and he probably had ANOTHER plan down the line to recover the spirit stones of Drykna and the two seers (note that at the end of the book their souls are preserved, if in the custody of the Inquisition).

I'm a big Eldar fan, and on balance I was impressed by their portrayal in Warrior Coven. All in all I liked the book enough to consider buying Eldar Prophesy as well.

Now my admittedly rambling train of thought is over, what are everyone else's thoughts?

MvS
14-10-2008, 14:12
You know, I remember back in the days of yore when BL first started up, they said they would never allow books from the POV of Eldar precisely because no-one 'gets them right'.

Of course that was a very extreme and pretty stupid position. That said, since those heady days of restrictionism it seems anything now goes and Eldar can be depicted any way the author pleases really, so long as they keep their pointy helmets and are described as 'lithe' or 'graceful' or whatever else.

I remember BL also said they would never allow novels based around the Horus Heresy in case writers began to undermine / make mundane the epic ancient history of 40K. Again, while some writers have done a sterling job delving into this history, perhaps BL have gone a bit too far in their permissions and approvals process judging by some of the HH stuff produced.

Anyway, on topic, I find Goto's books a bit clunky and very obviously pulp-fiction. That isn't unprecedented in the genre he writes within, but still, his grasp of the imagery is often shaky as well. The fact that it gets through is as much a fault of his editors as much as anything else.

Sikkukkut
14-10-2008, 14:42
The only thing of his that I've read is the Necromunda novel Salvation, and I thought that was pretty good. It's certainly not flawless - the events of the last couple of chapters and the end of the character arc are rather muddled and confusing - but I thought he had a good handle on the craziness of the Hive Primus aristocracy and the way he introduced the main character and let us into his life and personality in the early chapters was very well done.

Lord Malorne
14-10-2008, 14:51
I have read the enitre Blood ravens trilogy...I have no idea why, the books were not badly written, IMO the writing was ok, just his grasp of the setting is flawed at best.

Foolish Mortal
15-10-2008, 11:35
Personally, the books of his I have read (dawn of war trilogy & a few others I can't remember) have not been totally awful (except the last dawn of war book - urrgh!!). They fill time on the journey to/from work in a reasonable way.

Thing is for me, apart from the well known baying Tyranids, athletic terminators & multi-laser marines, what really bugs me about his books is the way he has all the main characters assume heroic poses either before/during/after a battle, or occaisionally for no apparent reason. I can't remember which book it was, but it had this 3 times on one page alone - arrrgh!! enough already.

Also a minor bug bear but when it comes to transport vehicles, why does noone ever sit IN them, only ON them?

Honestly, for mistakes he makes with things that are easily available to check (Marines/Tyranids) then yes he deserves a good slapping, but you have to admire his 'bravery' at tackling things, like Eldar, that other writers won't touch, but perhaps to much bravery is a bad thing......

LexxBomb
15-10-2008, 12:03
I know Im going to get flamed for this but...
Eldar Prophecies was actually a good book with interesting fluff in it - all you have to do is understand that cultural norms and knowledge changes with the lack of communications between groups.
The craftworld in that book has basicly no communication with other craftworlds and as such their legends would have different interpretations...
Also the Warp Spider (lets call him a Pheonix Lord) was really cool.


And no one mention that a Falcon Grav tank was downed by soimeone throwing a rock at it... Then again they are only Armour 10 at the rear

weissengel86
16-10-2008, 00:56
And no one mention that a Falcon Grav tank was downed by soimeone throwing a rock at it... Then again they are only Armour 10 at the rear I hope that was a daemon rock from the warp!!!!

Dreadnought6107
16-10-2008, 01:09
Heh, I think I'm one of the few that likes the books he's written, I guess its cause I don't read that much, at least actual books, maybe his books are easier to read for me. I really liked DoW Ascension and warrior brood/coven books.

borithan
16-10-2008, 10:06
Not read any of his books, so don't have any real opinion, but SM used to be able to take multi-lasers, so if that is a complaint about them, it doesn't seem totally justified.

LexxBomb
16-10-2008, 11:34
I think its more a reference to the old days of harlequisn in landraiders

Lockjaw
16-10-2008, 17:06
I only read eldar prophecy so far and kind of liked it, it was flawed yeah, and the one or two likeable characters died horribly, but otherwise it was decent, and we actually had a 40k book that wasn't from an imperial POV (I never liked that policy back in the day)

Khaine's Messenger
16-10-2008, 20:19
Are there people out there who DON'T think C.S Goto deserves all the hate he gets?

I personally don't think he deserves the scorn and derision of the 40k fan community, no. But I'm still voting with my wallet and not buying anything he writes for a bit. Is that a bit hypocritical considering the general standards of the Black Library? Perhaps, but there have been other Black Library writers and series I've boycotted or refused to read. It's possible that I'll give him the benefit of the doubt again in the next few years. I did that once with Ben Counter, and he's since written some of my favorite 40k novels. Indeed, I often work on a series by series basis rather than author by author.

FashaTheDog
16-10-2008, 20:33
Considering that I only read 40K books as a second or third book, usually as a spare I keep in my car or pocket for when I need to kill time in a waiting room or if I'm a passenger and forgot a book, and that the greater bulk of my reading is considered classic literature or more academic topics (I particularly enjoy the study of American privateers out of Baltimore during the War of 1812), I have little against Goto as a writer. I would not put him or any other Black Library authors on the same level as Austin, Faulkner, or the other authors I read in my spare time but if the story in one of his books is enjoyable, then I have no problem reading one of his books.

Cartographer
16-10-2008, 23:20
There are 4 types of authors in the world, assuming a subject matter I'm interested in:
Authors whos books I will buy in Hardback.
Authors whos books I will buy in Paperback.
Authors whos books I will borrow.
Authors whos books I will avoid like the plague.

It usually takes 2-3 tries for an author to make it into the 4th group. I will usually give them the benefit of the doubt, assume I'm not necessarily the target audience this time round (while still being interested in the subject), assume I'm just missing something important in the story etc.

C.S.Goto got into the 4th group after 1 book.
I will never waste time or money on that hack ever again.

neXus6
16-10-2008, 23:37
Wasn't Eldar Prophecy the one where the lieth agile teleporting Warp Spider fell on it's back and couldn't get up a la a tortoise on its back?

C.S.Goto is probably the Bill King of today...okay I know that sound harsh on Bill but hear me out. I got into BL books when I was in my early teens and started with Space Wolf, then as I got older I moved onto Dan Abnett and now I'm reading McNeil and Sandy Mitchell books when they come out on occation but I've mostly moved off of BL books.
Looking back on the King and most of the Abnett books they are pretty dire, but back then I liked them...so C.S.Goto is like the entry level BL writer for the kids these days like Bill King was for me back then.

That's about as fair as I think I can be about him. :p

MrBigMr
17-10-2008, 02:22
I remember browsing one of his SM books, but didn't really get anything out of it. Wasn't really my cup of tea. I have been thinking of gettint that Eldar POV one, just so that I can say I've read all non-human POV novels BL has ever made.

But all in all I don't read BL novels as great pieces of literature. Mainly get ones without tons of combat and war, something that'll tell more about the world than how Pvt. Bob puts a bolt through alien/heretic/mutant 10 times a page. I get more out of such things. The combat is just filler in there. If I want that, I'll play the game. Sucks that BL is mainly targeting the SM/Guard action crap. Reading Storm of Iron the only thing, while it was a good book, that kept me going was Urlana. And her fate was probably the most anti-climatic thing ever.

I would live if BL actually would publish something interesting for a change, but fat chance of that happening. Jesus, I got frustrated enough with their forum alone when we couldn't think outside of the box. If it ain't in the fluff, it's not a topic to talk about was pretty much what the mods said to me. So I'm a little pissed at the whole company.

...
Damn, got a little carried away there. Still, I like the older BL stuff that's not in print anymore.

LexxBomb
17-10-2008, 03:27
ah you mean when things were published by "The Journal"

daa6
17-10-2008, 04:48
Personally, i dont think he deserve the bad "press", i've read a few of his books and not had any problem with them, they flow quite well, and again he touches on areas other writers aviod.

Been thinking of Eldar Prophecy for a while just wasn't sure what its like.... "hint hint"

and again some things are a far shot, and make him unpopular, but i think it because its not ALL about Marine.... or the imperium.. so its not as liked. the Deathwatch books were good, and again had a good twist, "and the captin dies" not so tipical.... :)

keatsmeister
17-10-2008, 10:13
Let's face it, most of the Black Library collection is nothing but pulp fiction. There are some which are of better quality than others but I think the point about going by series rather than author is more valid. For example, not a huge fan of Gav Thorpe, but I do read the Last Chancers books fairly often. CS Goto, I've only read the Blood Ravens books, but IMO they are no worse than the Blood Angels books...

Rockerfella
17-10-2008, 10:42
I guess, for me at least, he's just not my bag.

I have certain issues with writers who have a very clear agenda, one so obvious its blaringly hideous.

Other than that, erm....

*shrugs*

LexxBomb
17-10-2008, 12:23
what like Matt Ward totaly destroying all the fluff about Space Marines and making the Ultramarines the example of perfection.

Christine
17-10-2008, 15:31
Personally, the books of his I have read (dawn of war trilogy & a few others I can't remember) have not been totally awful (except the last dawn of war book - urrgh!!). They fill time on the journey to/from work in a reasonable way.


I'll second that, especially about just how incredibly bad the last dawn of war book was. In general though I've found them 'okay', certainly not great but 'okay'.

Brother Loki
17-10-2008, 22:45
what like Matt Ward totaly destroying all the fluff about Space Marines and making the Ultramarines the example of perfection.

This is atarting to get old. over 60% of chapters are descended from the Ultramarines. Over 90% of chapters follow the codex astartes closely. Why wouldn't they be portrayed as paragons?

TheMav80
17-10-2008, 22:59
This is atarting to get old. over 60% of chapters are descended from the Ultramarines. Over 90% of chapters follow the codex astartes closely. Why wouldn't they be portrayed as paragons?

Because following the codex doesn't mean you secretly wish you could have been recruited by the Ultramarines?

Who does follow the codex these days anyway?

Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Iron Hands are first founders that don't.

Setez
18-10-2008, 00:03
I have only read a quick prewiev of Warrior Coven, and as far as I can tell it wasn't too bad.

Johnator
18-10-2008, 02:04
I'm sorry but even for pulp fiction C.S. Goto is terrible. I bought the DOW trilogy and literally forced myself to finish it on sheer principle that I bought it alone. It was fluff wise terribly flawed but the real problem is that there is no real character or charm to the writing. It is just flat and honestly I am pretty easy to please for 40K books since I like just about every other one (and I have read them all for the last couple of years). I just pray he never writes a Horus Heresy book.......

Hellebore
18-10-2008, 03:46
Sometimes I wonder if BL let Goto write about eldar to shut up the fans, knowing full well it would be terrible and no one would buy it:

"But we DID release books about the eldar. It's not OUR fault you didn't like them. Obviously now we are going to have to recoup our losses with a dozen new books about how Marneus Calgar craps lightning and farts thunder." :rolleyes:

It's like when the government here held a referendum on becoming a republic and gave you two options: 1) stay as part of the monarchy or 2) use a terrible system for becoming a republic.

Thus they could 'prove' that the people preferred a monarchy because no one was stupid enough to vote for the ridiculous system they offered.

Hellebore

LexxBomb
18-10-2008, 04:55
Hellebore from the research I was involved in at university (when I was doiung the Sociology part of my History Doctorate) we foiund that it was only a 1/3 of Australians who wanted a republic.... the 1/3 wanted a monarchy and the last 1/3 didn't care because it didn't matter

Imperialis_Dominatus
18-10-2008, 05:00
This is atarting to get old. over 60% of chapters are descended from the Ultramarines. Over 90% of chapters follow the codex astartes closely. Why wouldn't they be portrayed as paragons?

As the Mav pointed out, it's not that they're the paragons of the Codex or that they are from where the majority of SM Chapters come from or anything like that. It's the overwhelming and frankly fluffraping idea that Space Marine Chapters (the ultimate in 'my way or the highway', proud, stubborn, dogmatic, and again proud) will secretly feel ashamed that they are not of a particular lineage.

Anyone who is a Space Marine will be proud of it, hella proud. They will be gods amongst men. They will be indoctrinated to the glory of their own Chapter and their Primarch. They will have absolute force of belief in their brethren, and mistrust those outside their brotherhood.

However, the new SM Codex portrays UM as some sort of wet dream that a full third of all Space Marine Chapters (those not descended from them) fantasizes about every time they get their few hours of rest. It's incongruous with the idea of being an Astartes, glorifies the Ultramarines to no real or good purpose, and overshadows every other Chapter's fluff such that the player base are sickened by it.

Check out the B&C for more.

Mr Kibbles
18-10-2008, 05:02
I hope we stay a monarchy. :D

afshinbb
18-10-2008, 05:38
well since we are on the subject of good fiction writers the BEST author you will read is JAMES SILKE. i dont even think that is his real name it must be one of those names authors use when they dont want to use thier own, he wrote the DEATH DEALER series, for frank frazetta. perfect use of imagery and savagery and arcane magic. a very visual writer, which is what i like for my fiction, strong, engrossing and believable imagery and physcis. if i could find an author like that to write 40k i would read every book. the best 40k stories i have read have been out of inferno. one was about land speeder marines attacking a necron tomb. and the other about choas (in fantasy warhammer) naval ships landing on shore of a little village and decimating a village except for the little boy. does anybody know those stories or what inferno they were in. who were the authors? thanks.

MrBigMr
18-10-2008, 08:20
Over 90% of chapters follow the codex astartes closely. Why wouldn't they be portrayed as paragons?
Good for them, since even the Ultramarines don't belong into that number. But I guess that once you're pretty much the standard template for modern marines and descendants of the father of modern Marines, you can get away with murder.

Bjorn
18-10-2008, 08:48
Good for them, since even the Ultramarines don't belong into that number. But I guess that once you're pretty much the standard template for modern marines and descendants of the father of modern Marines, you can get away with murder.
Only Murder?

Seems a little low scale for 40k ;)

And to get OT: I don't like C.S Goto

Thud
19-10-2008, 00:36
I haven't read Goto's books, but judging from the reactions of people who even liked other BL books, I won't be spending any money on his books any time soon.

Most of the BL books I've read, with a few honourable exceptions, are horrible, horrible pieces of trash. The incredible lack of depth in the so-called characters is laughable. Let's take the Uriel Ventris books as an example. Our hero, Mr Ventris can be summed up thus: "teh emperor rules and every one who doesn't agree is teh suxxors!!1 Let's kill some heretics lol" :rolleyes:

Inquisitor Engel
19-10-2008, 00:50
However, the new SM Codex portrays UM as some sort of wet dream that a full third of all Space Marine Chapters (those not descended from them) fantasizes about every time they get their few hours of rest. It's incongruous with the idea of being an Astartes, glorifies the Ultramarines to no real or good purpose, and overshadows every other Chapter's fluff such that the player base are sickened by it.


I really didn't get that impression at all.

I got that Ultramarines can effectively pull rank in almost any situation with almost any Chapter, now could a Captain from the Red Scorpions be told what to do by a Tactical Marine from the Ultramarines? No, of course not, but Calgar is going to get given command of joint strikes time and time again.

The only Chapters that even attempt to argue with them are other First Founding Chapters and off-the-wall ones like the Black Templars.

The much BETTER insinuation is that the Ultramarines can often use and command their Primarch's progeny in a very similar manner to the way a Legion worked. It's darker and to be honest, a lot more fun.

The Blood Angels and Dark Angels can do the same with their successors as well, as could the Fists, with the exception of the Black Templars, who are almost a Legion in their own right.

I just didn't get the "wet dream" feeling that everyone else got. If I did, I'd have finished my army of Ultramarines, but instead I went for Imperial Fists...

Imperialis_Dominatus
20-10-2008, 04:02
These Chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their geneseed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the teachings of the great Primarch.

'Can never be Ultramarines' implies the superiority of them over all others. Combined with them aspiring to his teachings, context indicates that they want to be Ultramarines. Hence, the partially facetious 'wet dream' allegory.


...aberrants; Chapters who... exchew the Codex Astartes...

Aberrant for doing their own thing, when that 'abominable behavior' has saved the Imperium time and time again? Black Templars at Terra, Space Wolves frickin' everywhere... the list goes further on and on. To speak of them in such an insulting tone is something you could be shot for in-universe.


...this is the tale of the Ultramarines, and all those who follow their example.

In context with everything else on this page, I read this as more implications of inferiority on the part of other Chapters.


...each member of the Ultramarines Honor Guard has earnt more commendations and glories in a lifetime's service than any whole company of Space Marines from any other Chapter.

Yeah. Right.


... in no small part due to the favorable stance taken by the Ultramarines...

Since when do the Ultramarines get to dictate such things?


Calgar is a proud man, a trait that has earned him more than a fair share of enemies within the Imperium's internecine politics. Yet he also possesses a shrewd self-awareness that prevents that pride from turning sour and leading him into arrogance.

So he has a flaw... wait! Oh wait! No he doesn't, he's perfect!


...the Ultramarines 2nd Company- the finest fighting unit in this or any other Space Marine Chapter.

See response to Honor Guard fanboyism.


Toughness 6

Yes. I **** you not. On a vanilla SM non-monstrous-creature character. Toughness 6.

If all that above isn't enough Ultrafap to make you want to puke in your mac'n'cheese, I can come up with more from the WD article. Just give me some time so I can be bothered to buy it and the gasoline to burn it.

FashaTheDog
20-10-2008, 05:39
I can come up with more from the WD article. Just give me some time so I can be bothered to buy it and the gasoline to burn it.

We demand pics!

Seriously, you're preaching to the choir. Mat Ward is the ultimate Ultramarine fanboy, he's even admit it. The only difference between him and the internet fanboys is that he wrote an offical codex with fluff that puts the worst Star Trek fanfic to shame.

Vaktathi
20-10-2008, 06:48
Personally, I can't stand his writing. Not only does he get his 40k very innaccurate, but his writing style is typically very biased (he goes to great length to extoll the powerful and mighty space marines and describe the broken and destroyed bodies of the Eldar) and the man loves to overdo his writing, far too much purple prose, they all read like very bad fanfics sadly.

MrBigMr
20-10-2008, 08:44
Seriously, you're preaching to the choir. Mat Ward is the ultimate Ultramarine fanboy, he's even admit it. The only difference between him and the internet fanboys is that he wrote an offical codex with fluff that puts the worst Star Trek fanfic to shame.
See, that is why the only thing from the new SM codex I'm after are the rules. The rest is just the author bending over to Calgar while giving him a reach around at the same time. Don't ask me how it's possible, but he does it.

Seriously, Ultramarines are the biggest Mary Sues in the world (of 40K). Seriously, some of the stuff they do would have had most other chapters purged a billion times over, but no, not the Ultras. They're perfect and everyone knows they're perfect. They would never abuse their power. They're the reason I hate Marines above all else.

LexxBomb
20-10-2008, 09:22
have they changed what the honour guard is

back in 4th ed it was a formation of space mar4ines from Ultramarine geneseed that worked near to the eye of terra... the key thing was that they were from different chapters... have they changed this????

Imperialis_Dominatus
20-10-2008, 18:50
See, that is why the only thing from the new SM codex I'm after are the rules. The rest is just the author bending over to Calgar while giving him a reach around at the same time. Don't ask me how it's possible, but he does it.

Seriously, Ultramarines are the biggest Mary Sues in the world (of 40K). Seriously, some of the stuff they do would have had most other chapters purged a billion times over, but no, not the Ultras. They're perfect and everyone knows they're perfect. They would never abuse their power. They're the reason I hate Marines above all else.

I'd argue that Tau and Necrons have similar Mary Sue potential, but I've got to agree with you otherwise.

Bjorn
20-10-2008, 19:18
Because following the codex doesn't mean you secretly wish you could have been recruited by the Ultramarines?

Who does follow the codex these days anyway?

Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Iron Hands are first founders that don't.

Actually very few of the 1st founding follow the Codex in its entity:
------
Dark Angels: Non Codex 1st and 2nd companies

White Scars: Heavy Use of bikes outside the 6th company.

Space Wolves: Has 12 self contained Great Companies that are larger than regular Codex Companies.

Imperial Fists: Fully codex to my knowledge, mainly because it was all Dorns fault the Big E died!

Blood Angels: Death Company. :3

Iron Hands: Clans (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Iron_Hands#Organization)

Ultramarines: Well they did write the bloody thing

Salamanders: Supposedly have 6 Companies of 120 marines each plus a scout company though the new codex says 7 full companies with an implied scout company. In any case, they don't follow the codex entirely.

Raven Guard: 10 codex companies, but the makeup of those is different than the codex dictates due to each company being in all effects autonomous entities.
------
So from that list we see only the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists actually following the codex fully, with the Dark Angels, White Scars, Blood Angels, Salamanders and Raven Guard following a mutated form of it, and the Space Wolves and Iron Hands totally ignoring it.

Then there are the Traitor 1st founding Legions who don't follow it either. :D

Rockerfella
20-10-2008, 19:36
Sometimes I wonder if BL let Goto write about eldar to shut up the fans, knowing full well it would be terrible and no one would buy it:

"But we DID release books about the eldar. It's not OUR fault you didn't like them. Obviously now we are going to have to recoup our losses with a dozen new books about how Marneus Calgar craps lightning and farts thunder." :rolleyes:



That, my friend, deserves one of these:- :D:D:D

Me thinks a sig change is in order!

MrBigMr
20-10-2008, 21:29
I'd argue that Tau and Necrons have similar Mary Sue potential, but I've got to agree with you otherwise.
Well, for one GW has been throwing crap on the Tau to see what sticks and I have to say that at least to me the orange isn't as orange as it used to be. There's all the cases of warcrimes, pride, hot headedness, Farsight, not to forget all the cases of Chaos playing with them. So it's clear that they're not all powerful after all.

And the Necrons... Well, they're f-ed before they even went into their tombs. Sure, they got crazy tech and all but they have their weaknesess as well. If it had been Calgar against Vaul's fleet of Blackstone Fortresses, no one would have ever even heard about them. Nor the Eldar for that matter.

Xisor
20-10-2008, 22:27
Regarding Goto

I've only read Warrior Brood. It had some serious gaffs in it that made me seriously think "What the dickens!?", like the lone Hive Tyrant and a few lesser things.

More glaringly there were a few really...odd turns of phrase. References to vampires and things. Modern sayings and such. They always feel really out of place in SF/F (and visual SF/Fantasy) as they break the suspension of disbelief. Like when Harry Potter thought something containing the word "Nanosecond". He's not going to use that word! Sillyness!

Stuff like that really stood out.

However

I enjoyed the book. Not awesome, but he handled the Deathwatch well enough and I wasn't totally thinking "Right..." when looking at the Inquisition (as so often happens in Abnett's works).

I'm not sure how to describe Goto's stuff. I'm keen to get on to Warrior Coven. His Eldar can't be much worse than McNeil's in Fulgrim, the good old eldar from Boring McBlandy Craftworld. Eldrad was poop, and no effort really went into defining the eldar. It was...pants. Goto at least was a little more convincing with the Tyranids!

Treadhead_1st
21-10-2008, 00:16
I read the Dawn of War series.

Couldn't stand it. Read them, as I liked the game, and thought it would shed some light/secrets the game did not. Oh well.


Won't pick up another of his books. The writing style seemed to be one that started flowing, then jolted to a stop and seemed to go out of it's way to kick you out of the immersion into the 40K universe.

I'm a fan of Abnett and Mitchell - an occasional fan of McNiel - I liked the 1st 2 Ultra books, 3rd put me off (not read 4th); and the Fulgrim HH book was...odd - I liked it, but didn't at the same time for some reason I can't really put my finger on.

But Abnett/Mitchel books I can't put down. The gritty realism (for a 40K setting) in Gaunt's Ghosts, the sheer sarcastic comedy and drama in Eisenhorn and th Cain series'...

...Outside of 40K, I'm into serious fantasy Epics like Wheel of Time, Malazan Book of the Fallen, Middle Earth (LoTR was brilliant until I saw the films, Hobbit is a nice read, but Children of Hurin blew me away. What a fall for a character) - there are lots more I need to pick up too, in the same genre. I would never lump BL works in with these series', that's like comparing the local Dad's football team to Premier League, but they're good reads for the most part - a feeling I just didn't ge from Gotto's work.

I guess Gotto's pulp-style writing, and the far-more-frequent-than-should-be background errors, just doesn't appeal to me.

Helsing
21-10-2008, 01:56
C.S. Goto is like Mark Twain, his writing is to complicated and to long for us simple folk.

FashaTheDog
21-10-2008, 04:39
To Helsing: Don't ever do that again. Goto really lacks the sarcastic wit and talent of Twain and should never be compared to a such a literary icon. Your anaolgy is like saying George W Bush is like Einstein because they both had accents.

Dreadnought6107
21-10-2008, 04:43
To Helsing: Don't ever do that again. Goto really lacks the sarcastic wit and talent of Twain and should never be compared to a such a literary icon. Your anaolgy is like saying George W Bush is like Einstein because they both had accents.

Thread over, Fasha wins.

I'm now waiting for someone to compare something stupid just so I can use that line.