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View Full Version : New to Fantasy, Have Lizardmen, need advice



snatcheroo
15-11-2005, 16:14
Recently I was fortunate enough to be given an unassembled/unpainted lizardmen army for free. I want to outfit the army to be well rounded and fun to play. So my main concern is what to do with saurus and skinks but I'll let you know what else I have so that you know what is available to me.

1x Slann
1x Old blood or Vet on foot
1x Skink Priest
32x saurus warriors
24x skinks
6x jungle swarms
3x terradons
3x kroxigar
10x cameleons
5x cold ones cavalry
1x slamander

So, from what I've learned in Army Builder and on the forums (no books yet) I have a fair amount of options for different sized games and scenarios. I'm currently assembling the skinks and saurus and need to figure out how many of each will be equipped with what weapons. I read a recent similar post which suggested that spears aren't worth it for saurus but I'd really like to have the variety and option available.
My thoughts are

20 saurus w/shields & handweapons
12 saurus w/spears
14 skinks w/javelins
10 skinks w/blowguns

So my question is, given the other models that I have at my disposal, is the above equipment plan a good one or should I change the ratios (eg 12 skinks /w javs 12 w/ bguns)

I look forward to your helpful responses.

if it makes a difference, my main opponents will be Slaanesh Daemonic Legion and Vampire Counts.

made_of_metal
15-11-2005, 16:49
well if you could get 8 more saurus that would be great. 20 man saurus units are solid, they can take on alot of things and win.
I would not bother with spears. The better save on expensive saurus is too good to me and they already have alot of attacks. One of each weapon is good for skinks though.
You have a good start on characters. It will be a strong magic phase and you just have to be careful where you put your scar vet. He has alot of hitting power but can't take that much himself.
Your support units are good, and units that will cause fear will be handy vs your oppenents. They won't run away from all his scary stuff. I would probably leave out the chameoline skinks. Normal skinks usually turn out to be just as effective for much cheaper.

Hope this helps.

Ivan the Terrible
16-11-2005, 01:56
You will need to get 2 more salamanders ASAP! They are one of the best units in the game, and they work best in threes. I would go 12 and 12 with the skinks. I agree with made of metal about the cham. skinks though some Lizard Generals swear by them. He is also right about the spears-go for the better save. When you fight VC and Daemons, use the blessed spawning of Tlazcotl for your saurus. Finaly, I do pretty well with 2 units of 16 saurus. You might want to get more skinks too. Good luck! Lizardmen are a blast to use.

Flypaper
16-11-2005, 04:47
If you insist on using spears (and again, I'd recommend against it... But I guess it's not that big a deal - you aren't crippling yourself or anything), then put them on the big block rather than the small one. In terms of their role, you want the big block to be an anvil and the small block to be a hammer minding their flank - and spears don't do anything on the charge unless you're a high elf. Use the twenty spearmen to hold opponents in place, then smack into their flank with 12 (or even 10) with hand weapons and no banner.

...Alternatively, two units of sixteen work fine for saurus. The two attacks mean you can use a narrower frontage than other races' infantry, so you're not forced to run 20 every time.

Against Demons you'd do well to maximise your poisoned shots - i.e. more blowpipes (preferrably fielded as scouts). I like twelve and twelve, but maybe that's just my sense of symmetry. ;)

I assume you've figured this out, but more than two swarm bases isn't worth it at this points cost. I'd be reluctant to even run those (though they're financially very efficient!), but they should actually work fairly well against mounted daemonettes and Black Knights!

Slappy
16-11-2005, 05:01
Don't listen to the advice about using 3 Salamanders in each game unless you want to make people not want to play you.

Other than that, I would get a Stegadon as they are just plain fun and useful. You won't regret I think.

RaZeR
16-11-2005, 06:50
Theres nothing wrong with using 3 salamanders per game. Its the only way they are worth using at 2000 points. if you take only skinks as core, then 3 salamanders is a bit cheesy, but generally its fine (i always play 3, and have never had a problem). Its the players who take 6 that begin to cause trouble...
apart from that, i personally would also never use spears... however, again, if you want to, go for it. the skinks, well, 14:10 is probably how i would do it as well. you probably dont really need more than 10 scouting (i give my scouts blowpipes and my screens javelins), as more is unwieldy, so might as well have some more screening, allowing more casualties if someone DOES shoot them...

Frankly
16-11-2005, 14:01
The great thing about L.M. is that almost all their units are very playable, good, flexible units.

If they're all the units you have, then I say just play armylists until you get a feel for the units you like and those you don't.

Nothing bets game play.

Basically your best options are your basic troops types, both saurus and skinks are brillant at what they do, skinks are easier to use, saurus need alot more forethought to get their points back.

Both units work well together, I have seen armylists that are basically made up of just these two unit and the lists do really well.

Skinks go well with both B.pipes or javelins. Javelins are alittle more mobile and alittle more flexible, while B.pipes can do more damage. 10 skinks is a good size, 13 skinks means you panic on 4 dead instead of 3 this is really useful as well.

The average unit size for saurus is 20, which is a good size for them. The minimum size is (imo) 15, anything smaller than 15 models and they'll loss to many of their strengths in combat, e.g. unit strength, ranks bonuses.

If your running with smaller units of saurus, then you HAVE TO relay on support play in you armylist to whittle down your opponants troops and also to protect your saurus units(e.g. meatsheilds).

Honestly, H.weapon and shields are the way to go with saurus, they already put out alot of damage and they really need to have that extra armour save to stay rock hard. They're already a costly unit anway, spears detract from their armour save and make the unit cost even more, I've never found spears more useful than H.weapons and shields.

Jungle swarms are golden, they're the all stars of my armylists, offcourse they're excellent in defence, but they're almost great at assaulting units with a lack of armour, e.g. minotaurs, gaints, orges are murdered by 20 poison attacks. J.swarms are awesome, I've never made a list without them.

Coldone riders, Kroxigors, terradons are all excellent special choices, you can't go wrong with any of them to be honest.

snatcheroo
16-11-2005, 15:28
Thanks for all of the advice everyone. I am looking forward to getting this one the table for some action :)
I've decided to go without spears and as a bonus it will suit the aztec-ish fluff more :)
I'm going to assemble the saurus as 2 units of 16 with full command.. I'll be able to try out a unit of 20 one a smaller game. And the skinks I'm going to stick with my original thought of 10 bpipe scouts and 14 javs. Picking up more units if necessary isn't a problem if I feel it necessary.

I'll keep the extra salamanders in mind, I was sort of wondering about the strength of running one solo, given their abilities and stat line.

Is 5 cavalry enough or should I consider a second unit of 5 in the future?

I'm assuming that braves on the terradons and skink units is a waste of points, is that a good assumption?

thanks again, you guys are great help :)

Ivan the Terrible
16-11-2005, 17:58
I don't care much for the Cold One Riders, but you should try them and see what you think. Braves are a waste of points-too bad you can't take musicians:p . As far as complaints about 3 Salamanders-I think that those are a case of sore losers. Every army has star units. Every army has something that could be called "cheesy". Instead of complaining they should figure out a way to deal with them. They're not that tough. I can see complaining about 6 though.

Flypaper
17-11-2005, 04:54
A single salamander, while decent for its points, has the disadvantage of being hugely inconsistent. A shot can either do nothing or force a panic test, and you've no control over which you'll end up with. Two-plus averages out those misfires, and three is enough for them to be quite reliable.

While a 3-man salamander team is powerful, if someone refuses to play against it they've probably got a pretty cheesy list of all-skinks or all-beastherds themselves! Six is pretty over the top, though.

Five cav is plenty. They overlap a bit tactically with Kroxigor - and for most things the Krox are slightly better.

Braves on the Terradons aren't just a waste - they're actively bad (ditto on Kroxigor ancients). This is because you'll often throw them at a unit with a wizard hiding in it and direct all your attacks at him... But if you have a Brave your opponent can declare a challenge with his unit champion and keep you from directing those attacks at the wizard.

oma
17-11-2005, 09:19
use the skinks infront of the kroxigors as the kroxigors kan charge though them but the opponent can't this is very useful, if you field the scar vet on a cold one give him enchanted shield and the blessing og +1 scaly skin (dont remember the name) and light armor he will have -1 armor save, and almost impossible to kill without killing blow or no armorsave attacks, suddenly that cold one unit became much better did'nt it?

Frankly
17-11-2005, 12:24
. As far as complaints about 3 Salamanders-I think that those are a case of sore losers.

Dude, don't make comments like this, name calling isn't cool at all.


The fact of the matter is that units of 3 salamander can whipe out T3 rank and file units without evenin being touched, IMO they are alittle on the broken side, especially with their move and shot rules. This is all coming from someone who actually has played 6 in an armylist(and loved it:) ), and will usually play a unit of them in an average list since they're so good at taking out skirmishing units.

I agree abut commanders in L.M. units, they're all really over priced and have no really benefit.

snatcheroo
17-11-2005, 15:00
Again, thank you for the advice everyone, it's very helpful.
I was playing around in Arm Builder with some larger point limits and recognized a possible need for more core units. It got me looking at the Temple Guard. What are your opinions of them?

Flypaper
17-11-2005, 23:53
Well, to start with you can't use 'em without a Slann. Army Builder neglects to mention that little detail? :wtf: They're a bit hard on the wallet, too! :o

Take Temple Guard only if you have a specific need for the Stubborn ability. I run 'em, but that's because I'm up against a Dragon and/or large units of Hight Elf cavalry a lot of the time and need to guarantee that my Froggie's bodyguard won't break on a poor die roll.

Halberds on the TG are nice in principle, but TG units are there to stay alive as much as they are there for kills, so you'll often find yourself fighting hand-weapon-and-shield style with them.

Having said that, because the Slann is usually the BSB you'll find that TG are as close to unbreakable as it gets (...without being, you know, unbreakable!). Rerollable cold-blooded Ld8 with no modifiers on break tests means you'll break on average once every 150 combat losses* - decent odds! The only thing you've got to worry about are US20 fear causing blocks - and even then the TG have a fair shot at winning combat and avoiding the autobreak.

By and large painting up another box of Saurus gives your list more flexibility and is probably more efficient combat-wise as well. Tzlacotl-marked Saurus are a popular choice for a Slann bodyguard instead of TG as they don't have to worry about being autobroken by fear causers.

*number dimly remembered from last time someone did the stats. Don't ask me to back it up!

Frankly
17-11-2005, 23:54
Honestly?

Temple guard are good, BUT, for their points costs over normal saurus they're not really worth it in my opinion.

I've always found that a well supported saurus unit can do anything a T.guard unit can do. If you want a heavy hitting option go for Kroxies ... the best for taking down H.cavalry or Coldone riders are nice for supporting rank and file saurus.

It also depends on how you want to play your armylist. If you want to play an agressive L.M. armylist then your looking at the quicker options and support options like terradons, scouting skinks etc, etc.

If your looking at playing a battleline type of list then saurus, skink shields and kroxies are awesome.

Any idea about how you'll fill out your hero slots?

snatcheroo
18-11-2005, 14:50
Come expansion time, another box of saurus it is then :)


Honestly?
Any idea about how you'll fill out your hero slots?
Only a very rough. I don't know anything about how the magic phase works so that side of things is a mystery to me. I figured that for games under 2000 I'd just run a Vet with either quetzl or tzlacotl, burning weapon (can remember name) and the +2 shield, and lvl 2 Skink Priest. Then for games larger than that add in the slaan at 3rd gen. Aside from that though I dont' really know. I'm not sure about magic gear for the priest or slaan... or what to do with them on the board. Any advice would be great.

I suppose it would help if I had the WFB rule book but with the prospect of the 7th ed book coming in a year I should wait until then to buy it. My friend has a 6th ed copy though.... I'll make sure to borrow it this weekend. I'll probably pick up the armybook in january after the christmas instanity.

Ivan the Terrible
23-11-2005, 01:41
[QUOTE=]Dude, don't make comments like this, name calling isn't cool at all. :confused: :confused: :confused:


It is not really name calling. It is a lazy way of saying that some players blame the rules or something when they are having a problem with another army. Instead of saying something is cheesy or broken, players should figure out a way to deal with it. Sure salamanders are tough, but they do have weaknesses. Their leadership is low, and if you eliminate the skink handlers they are nearly useless. I often play against the Vampire Counts-they can be really tough too. Like I said before-every army has elite units that are tough to deal with. Instead of wailing about SAD armies, salamanders, RAF armies etc just play the game.

virre
11-07-2006, 09:53
Slanns cost a hell lot and whit some tgs the unit is expensive. Ive seen it break and i lost a game because of that so im going for an oldblood whit 8 attacks or something like that. Its mutch better. In 3000 i just put him on the HUGE monster :). Get 1 or 2 more skinkpriests if you want to become a master of magic. But i never tested that. I dont like to challange a highelf player in a magic duel as I will lose it so badly.