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Jakk
15-10-2008, 04:00
What is the greatest armor save a model can have?

Is this combination legal, for a Dark Elf Dreadlord?


Dreadlord on Cold One
Heavy Armour, SDC, Sword of Might, Enchanted Shield, Pendant of Khaeleth, Potion of Strength

Thus giving him an 0+ armor save?


If not, why would the person take that configuration above?

RavenBloodwind
15-10-2008, 04:04
You can get to a '-1+' armor save with some builds. I think a -2+ is possible although I'm not positive (maybe lizardman character with some spawning, cold one and enchanted shield).

Your current build is legal as the SDC is not magic armor and doesn't stop you taking the enchanted shield.

Empire can get to 0+ without much effort as well with full plate armor (4+), barded warhorse (2+) and enchanted shield.

SolarHammer
15-10-2008, 04:08
There is no maximum, 1's always fail, anything lower than 1+ is only useful for countering armour save modifiers.

Shamfrit
15-10-2008, 04:14
-1 is the best save I've heard of, more might be possible, you'd need -2 however to still give a 6+ save against Str 10.

Ward.
15-10-2008, 05:51
I'm also pretty sure I've seen a -2 somewhere, probably the last time this came up.

The Red Scourge
15-10-2008, 05:52
Can't imagine any combo better than a -1+ AS – something like Khorne hero on jugger with enchanted shield.

havoc626
15-10-2008, 05:57
The best I know of is Oldblood w/ light armour, CO, queztl and enchanted shield, which gives a -1+ (there could be something that i'm missing, but I think thats all).

I'm not sure of any better than this, but it might be possible after a few more army book releases.

Ward.
15-10-2008, 06:50
Anyone got the dwarf rule book, perhaps take a look at a dwarf lord mounted on some shield bearers, might have been a rules ambiguity though.

Suspicions
15-10-2008, 06:59
That dreadlord combination works just fine, though most often I see Dark Elf players run their Lord a little over the top on protection...

Armor of Eternal Servitude, Cold One, Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield. Grants a 1+ Armor, an inverse Ward, and a 4+ Regen save...

Ridiculous....ridiculously Awesome!

Until you hit the goblin with that steals your ward save...grrr.

Templar_Victorious
15-10-2008, 08:26
Or he get's hit by the Lore of metal spell, and it ruins the item for the rest of the battle. Then he get flattened by a cannonball or a fireball.

death__lord
15-10-2008, 08:40
Anyone got the dwarf rule book, perhaps take a look at a dwarf lord mounted on some shield bearers, might have been a rules ambiguity though.

Nope, the max AS you can get for shield bearers are 1+.

T10
15-10-2008, 10:25
Gromril Armour: 3 pips (4+ armour save)
Shield: 1 pip (6+ armour save)
Shield Bearers: 2 pips (+2 armour save bonus)
Rune of Stone: 1 pip (+1 armour save bonus)
"Hand weapon & Shield" parry Bonus: 1 pip (+1 armour save bonus)

Total armour save: 8 pips.

1 pip: 6+
2 pips: 5+
3 pips: 4+
4 pips: 3+
5 pips: 2+
6 pips: 1+
7 pips: 0+
8 pips: (-1)+

So the best armour save you can get on your Dwarf Lord is (-1)+.

Of course, this depends on me being right in remembering that the Rune of Stone no longer carries the "1+ max" restriction, and that the Dwarf player is a heartless powergamer that assumes a Dwarf and his Shield Bearers to be "on foot".

-T10

death__lord
15-10-2008, 10:26
Gromril Armour: 3 pips (4+ armour save)
Shield: 1 pip (6+ armour save)
Shield Bearers: 2 pips (+2 armour save bonus)
Rune of Stone: 1 pip (+1 armour save bonus)
"Hand weapon & Shield" parry Bonus: 1 pip (+1 armour save bonus)

Total armour save: 8 pips.

1 pip: 6+
2 pips: 5+
3 pips: 4+
4 pips: 3+
5 pips: 2+
6 pips: 1+
7 pips: 0+
8 pips: (-1)+

So the best armour save you can get on your Dwarf Lord is (-1)+.

Of course, this depends on me being right in remembering that the Rune of Stone no longer carries the "1 +max" restriction, and that the Dwarf player is a heartless powergamer that assumes a Dwarf and his Shield Bearers to be "on foot".

-T10

Sheild bearers mentions that it only can be increased to 1+.

Eldramesha
15-10-2008, 10:29
The 1+ one is Master Rune of Gromril I think.

Dodgy Ed
15-10-2008, 11:22
And as has been mentioned before the shield bearers entry has a specific exception that states the save adds +2 to the armour save "to a maximum of 1+" (dwarf army book p29)

I think the best pure armour save dwarfs can get is 1+, however it is possible to do some other things to make a dwarf character nigh on unkillable in hand to hand

Master rune of steel - str5+ attacks count as str 5 against the char.
Rune of resistance - re-roll failed armour save
Master rune of spite - 4+ward save
Gromril Armour 4+armour save
Shield +1 armour save
Shield Bearers +2 armour save .

So you end up with a dwarf lord who will only ever be wounded on a 4+ at best, should he be allowed an armour save it will be 3+ re roll at worst and finally should said wound go through there is a 4+ ward save, oh and as he is on shield bearers he is also immune to killing blow.

Essentially meaning that he should take one unsaved wound for every 36 str5+ attacks against him.

Admitedly it's not much of a build as he can't really do anything however it is useful in large battles where you need the general to survive

gortexgunnerson
15-10-2008, 11:22
Well as its all about making a mockery of the rules for theory hammer, you just need items that improve e.g. blood armour, even if you just mounted him on a cold one and gave him an enchanted sheidl you could have a -2 save of you made 3 kills. However in all previous thread having blood armour was discounted as not being a true combo of saves..

Also I think the new daemons have some increable armour saves due to the juggarnaught, ability to take magic armour and a daemonic gift of armour as well although the legality of such obseen abuse is alittle murky!

Probably a better theroy hammer one is the amount of saving throws a model can make to reflect the changing environment. Now their is loads of regen etc, the new challenge should be linked to number of saves e.g NOTE not sure this legal as dont have my book with me,

Dwarf lord,
Armour with reroll
Master rune of spite
Rune of luck (to reroll ward save)

And i think their is a regeneration armour you can take, plus another rune of luck to reroll regeneration gives 6 saves!

I am now pretty sure that this is illegal as have given him 2 armour runes that i think are masters. But would be an interesting challenge to see how many saves you can get on one model! I think Dwarfs stand the best chance at this one having an easy 4 saves if desired

Shamfrit
15-10-2008, 11:48
Also I think the new daemons have some increable armour saves due to the juggarnaught, ability to take magic armour and a daemonic gift of armour as well although the legality of such obseen abuse is alittle murky!

No illegality at all.

Armour of Khorne (Daemonic Gift ON the Herald) 3+ Save.

Juggernaut's Special Ability gives +3 to save to it's mount.

Therefore, 0+ save.

No rules breaking.

eleveninches
15-10-2008, 11:56
Chaos hero with chaos armour on juggernaught with enchanted shield. -1+

Crispian25
15-10-2008, 13:33
I used to get 4 saves for my Tzeentch heroes (armor, tzeentch banner of ward save, orange flames for re-rolls). I think there was an armor in the BoC book that gave regeneration, but that armor was for beasts only IIRC. If not, then there's the six saves for old Chaos. Haven't got the book yet to find six saves for them now.

As for save values, Chaos armor (4+), Enchanted Shield (+2), and juggernaut (if using the same rules as daemons is a +3) = -1AS. Maybe there is a gift that lowers it, but again, no book yet.

Phantom89
15-10-2008, 14:02
Arnt there magic weapons that completly ignore armour saves, and also the humble cannon.

Embalmed
15-10-2008, 14:45
Arnt there magic weapons that completly ignore armour saves, and also the humble cannon.

Yes quite a lot of them. Goblins also have a funny item that lets you use your opponents saves and it's quite cheap too, so that combo would be funny:
'Ha ha! I have a -1+ save! '
'Ha ha, then so do I! btw I have a weapon that ignores armour!'

Crispian25
15-10-2008, 14:57
There's about one in every army that ignores all armor saves, but they usually cost a lot, and you can see the character using one going towards the units with a lot of armor.

SolarHammer
15-10-2008, 17:05
I always find it interesting that rules topics that get settled in the first 2 replies often go on for a couple more pages.

The tangents they go off on are sometimes very amusing.

DeathlessDraich
16-10-2008, 11:07
Greatest armour save - has to be the four 6s I rolled simultaneously to save a champion in a challenge. :p

swordd
17-10-2008, 20:25
Chaos lord with chaos armour, jaggernaut,enchanted sheild is a -2+ i think

Bac5665
17-10-2008, 21:14
Saurus Oldblood:

5+ scaly skin
Light armor, +1
Quetzl, +1
ES +2
Cold One +2

= -2+ AS. Go lizzies

theunwantedbeing
17-10-2008, 21:50
Saurus Oldblood:
5+ scaly skin
Light armor, +1
Quetzl, +1
ES +2
Cold One +2
= -2+ AS. Go lizzies
Chaos lord with chaos armour, jaggernaut,enchanted sheild is a -2+ i think

Both those are -1+ saves.
6,5,4,3,2,1,0,-1

They all generate a total of +8 armour save, a -1+ is +9 save in total. (starting at no save obviously)
chaos armour +3,juggernaught,+3,enchanted sheild +2
3+3+2=8
scaly skin +2,light armour +1, quetzl +1, enchanted sheild +2, cold one +2
2+1+1+2+2=8

You dont seem able to get a -2+ save these days.

Bjornin
17-10-2008, 23:10
Yeah, no -2+ til combat. And its quite a cheap build for the khorne heros as well. too bad the best ward you can get is 5+ (i think)

edit: that is if you still get the +1 bonus for the enchanted shield counting as a shield

athamas
18-10-2008, 22:18
you used to be able to get -2+ on a HE hero with a lion cloak, but only vs shooting... [in combination with E shield and the ability to combin the E shield with magic armour, so helm of fortune used to give an addition +1 to you save... ] luckily they removed this madness...

Zot Zot
19-10-2008, 19:45
Yes, some lists have magickal weapons that ignore armour saves (like the Imperial Runefang or the Skaven Gouger) and no armour amounts to anything against a cannon (save the Skaven Rust Armour (which disintergrates against a blow that ignores or powers through the wearers AS.)

I'm pretty sure the best save around is the -1+ (which gives a 2+ save vs Str 6 or less.)

eleveninches
21-10-2008, 13:30
Yeah, there are loads of things that ignore armour saves altogether. cannons, bolt throwers, spells, stone throwers, and almost every army list has a weapon that ignores armour