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elite_dannux
15-10-2008, 12:32
Would you say that it is ok to use SOB allies in an IG army with the Stormtrooper models?

There would not be any real stormtroppers or grenadiers to avoid confusion.

Also are there any easy way to give Stormtroopers bolters?

SPYDER68
15-10-2008, 15:08
Right now the stormtroopers are 3 peice models... Base.. backpack. then rest is a solid chunk.

You could do a bolter, but you would haft to do a ton of grinding to remove the hellguns, and it still could look awkward, depend on how good at grinding parts off and with greenstuff.

Cry of the Wind
15-10-2008, 15:20
I'd go with no just because the Storm Troopers are not wearing power armour. When I do 'counts as' I try to keep the equipment as close as possible even if the model is nothing like the original. For example I'm using Cadians with extra armour and respirators as Space Marine Scouts in my Inquisition army simply because they look better to me. The models still have carapace armour and I've modified the guns to look a little cooler so as to count as bolters.

Storm Troopers just don't look like power armour to me. I'd discourage it as a result.

Asi the Red
15-10-2008, 15:22
Why bother removing the Hellguns? Add some extra cabling from the backpack to the rifle and say it represents that these IST's have upgraded hellguns that count as bolters.

I'd have no problems with it, and if people complain about them not being in power armor just tell them they have "reinforced carapace"...

Faustburg
15-10-2008, 15:23
If you are already disregarding WYSIWYG, why not go the whole yards and have the Hellguns "count as" Bolters?

You are not going to get more or less opponents or event organizers saying "no" to your Stortrooper SOB´s for doing so.

Maceye
15-10-2008, 15:28
I would be perfectly fine with it, if I was clearly told before the battle started.

Asi the Red
15-10-2008, 15:35
Who'se disregarding WYSIWYG? Some Catachan infantry are bare chested but still get a 5+ armor save and they get a 4+ bare chested save if your IG army is using the Carapace Armor doctrine, and no-one in their right mind would argue that they don't.
If you feel like modeling them with more plating to represent a 3+ save, more power to you - but I (for one) don't feel it's necessary. If people give you problems about them having hellguns instead of bolters tell them they have hotshot powerpacks that are +1 S. If they've got problems with them having carapace instead of power armor tell them your Inquisitor had them refitted with carapace made of handwavium alloy that gives them a 3+ save but adds no bulk. If they've got a problem with the Acts of Faith, etc, etc.

sigur
15-10-2008, 15:41
I'd definately say no. First off, Stormtroopers are unit choices in the IG list AS WELL as in the WH list which can lead to massive confusion and it's just wrong to have your stormtroopers act as Sisters of Battle. Furthermore, Stormtrooper models (even those Kasrkin so many people seem to be in love with) don't wear power armour and there's a hefty difference between power armour and carapace (modelwise, backgroundwise). And last but not least, Stormtrooper models don't have Bolters.

So a definate "no" from my point of view, mostly because of the first point. You just can not proxy a unit with the models of another unit in your army, at least not as a planned and standard thing.

Cry of the Wind
15-10-2008, 15:46
Who'se disregarding WYSIWYG? Some Catachan infantry are bare chested but still get a 5+ armor save and they get a 4+ bare chested save if your IG army is using the Carapace Armor doctrine, and no-one in their right mind would argue that they don't.

Um, I would argue that Catachan models should not be used to represent carapace armoured troops... Also note that the jungle fighters doctrine that Catachan should be using more often than not reduces their save to 6+.

Lord Malorne
15-10-2008, 15:55
The models cost the same...why bother?

Embalmed
15-10-2008, 16:05
I would say it's ok in a 'counts as' manner i.e. in the same way that it would be ok to use ork boyz to represent Tau firewarriors for instance.

Other than that, well they don't have the same gear at all so no wysiwyg and there are SoB models out there for pretty much the same price.

Xenobane
15-10-2008, 16:07
Um, I would argue that Catachan models should not be used to represent carapace armoured troops... Also note that the jungle fighters doctrine that Catachan should be using more often than not reduces their save to 6+.

Yeah, me too. I mean proxying is one thing, and I'd be happy to wave something like this if it was a one-off, and someone was trying out the rules for models that they were thinking of buying or converting. But there has to be a line somewhere, or you might as well be using Nurglings to represent Hive Tyrants. The right-looking armour and weaponry are a good place to start, and I think without a bit of converting Storm Troopers are too far off SoB.

More to the point, as Sigur says, Storm Troopers already have a place in the IG list, so that doesn't help.

Asi the Red
15-10-2008, 16:07
(Going OT a bit...) But that's only if you're using them with the Catachan Jungle Fighters rules, which you are not required to do. You may field them as a regular infantry platoon with a 5+ bare chested save. You may also field them as part of an army using the Carapace Armor doctrine, in which case they've got a 4+ bare chested save. Or you can field them as part of a CJF army, in which case they've got a 6+ bare chested save. All of these are legit options for them. Keep in mind that even though it's called an Armor Save that it also represents being able to avoid incoming fire, not just how tough your body armor is.

Edit: Also as for why bother: Well the stats for SoB's are quite a bit better, but IMO the models are somewhat lacking (especially as part of an IG force). There could be other concerns, such as already owning the IST's vs having to buy the SoB's, or the FLGS having IST's in stock but no SoB's right now.

EVIL INC
15-10-2008, 16:12
I see no problems with it.
As the OP does not use stormtroopers, there are no actual stormtroopsers to confuse them with.
As the stormtrooper models have so much armor on that the only difference between it and power is the cosmetic looks, I have no issues with itcounting as power armor.
I see nothing wrong with counting the hellguns as souped up to bolter power.
Perfectly wysiwyg and fluffy.

Xenobane
15-10-2008, 16:18
You may also field them as part of an army using the Carapace Armor doctrine, in which case they've got a 4+ bare chested save.

You can do, in the same way as you can use completely different models to represent your Guardsmen. Should you?

Embalmed
15-10-2008, 16:20
Keep in mind that even though it's called an Armor Save that it also represents being able to avoid incoming fire, not just how tough your body armor is.


I disagree, the 'dodge save' is invulnerable in all instances I can think of. Armour Save represents armour.

Asi the Red
15-10-2008, 17:03
You can do[it], in the same way as you can use completely different models to represent your Guardsmen. Should you?
If it's fitting with the background/theme/fluff of your army, then yes. If my Guardsmen in Carapace armor are Tau Fire Warriors and the background of my army indicates that they've been operating without resupply so long that their battlesuits have all broken down and they've had to raid Imperial arms depots for supplies, then my Guardsmen are Tau with low strength weapons (operating on minimal power to conserve supplies) with squad based heavy weapons (suits are irreparable, have scavenged Imperial weapons). I could have Kroot mounted on Kroot Hounds as Rough Riders (probably should model some armor on them, but the Attilan models are getting a 5+ save from a jacket sooo...) and Krootox Riders as Ogryn (statlines are pretty comparable, except for the armor save again). My Command squad I'd call a Shan'al (I think is the right phrase) and it would represent my senior general and his retinue (now all suitless) giving out his battlefield commands via standard comms.
With pretty minimal conversion work, I'd call that a very fluffy army - it does not sound like you'd agree with me though.


...the 'dodge save' is invulnerable in all instances I can think of.
I'll concede this point. I thought I'd read something about the Eldar's armor save representing the combination of their speed and armor, or maybe it was the 4+ skirt save on the WH Repentia I was thinking of.

Cry of the Wind
15-10-2008, 18:37
Asi the Red, I see the point you're making and agree with it to an extent. It's just as far as counts as goes you're example above is done with lots of thought put into an army and it's background. Taking Catachan models and claiming the have carapace armour saves while bare chested because they are ninjas or something isn't the same. It is like subing in Space Marines as guard models to go the other way with it.

Twisting stat lines for counts as is much more palatable if done when no other option exists and the is a cool reason for doing it (like in your Tau example, cool idea but you need to add armour where none existed before for the Kroot). Also nothing is stopping you from adding armour to the Kroot models. Where as a Catachan counting as carapace armour isn't the same as there are carapaced armoured models in the same line.

For the OP to add some SoB into the army but without using Sisters models why not just convert some Space Marines to look different (using guard bitz to replace heads and arms for example)? What is your reason for wanting Storm Troopers to count as?

elite_dannux
15-10-2008, 18:52
Thanks for all the replies.

I didnt say that in the first post, but the reason id rather use stormtroppers over sisters of battle is because i think that the SOB models are downright ugly! They use old ugly bolters and their armour doesnt differ too much from the ST.

For me looks is very important! and i find SOB lacking too much.
If the community could show/link me to better models id be happy to compare them against the ST.
To answer the question about using converted SM models as SOB, from picture comparison i find that it would be rather hard to make a good "IG/SOB" conversion from SM models.

But id love to see any pictures if anybody have already made any successful and goodlooking conversions!! :)

And as far as the how-thick armour does my models have discussion goes, if the sister repentia can have a 4+ armour save then there really should not be a problem for stormtroopers to have atleast 2+ save. Carapace Catachans is still "legal" but noone can dispute the legality of the "cara-naked" armoured sister repentia models! ;)

Comparrison pictures between ST/SOB/SM.

As far as i can see the SOB use the old bolter and their armour looks much weaker than the SM equipment.



Compare pictures
SOB
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat1300166&rootCatGameStyle=

SM
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat1400009&rootCatGameStyle=

ST
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat1300108&rootCatGameStyle=

Repentia
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1300165&prodId=prod1080202&rootCatGameStyle=

Cry of the Wind
15-10-2008, 20:10
As for the Repentia models, well you've got me there but that's one unit that doesn't make sense as is GW's fault not a lazy gamer. Maybe they gave them the armour save because they wanted a Feel No Pain effect but it wasn't a universal rule at the time. That is a weak excuse however (and one that I don't support, see ninja Catachan comment) and I am just as confused as the next person as to why they have any armour at all.

As for conversion ideas, first thing that can to mind is using Catachan arms with Marine shoulder pads and then having guard heads either bare or if the respirator heads look any good then those. Haven't tried that out though.

I guess this leads to the question, if you don't like the models then why use them in your army? Why not just use Storm Troopers as Storm Troopers or if power armour is what you want why not Grey Knights?

kikkoman
15-10-2008, 21:44
to represent a 3+ sv, you could give them shields

To avoid having to convert all of them to carry shields, just mount it on a shoulder.
This should differentiate their appearance enough from regular storm troopers and Sisters, while showing their enhanced armor save.

Asi the Red
16-10-2008, 02:01
To avoid having to convert all of them to carry shields, just mount it on a shoulder.
This should differentiate their appearance enough from regular storm troopers and Sisters, while showing their enhanced armor save.

I don't think they really need this, since there will be no other Sisters or Stormtroopers in his army - but if I was going to convert them to make the idea more palatable (cause I can see where people might not like it) this is what I'd do. You can find E-bay lots of the Tau Fire Warrior shoulder armor pretty cheap and it'd be really easy to file off/green stuff over the Tau Empire logo on them. It'd give you a great big area to freehand an =I= too.

In the far far future, I plan on doing this (relatively cheap) mod to squads of regular Cadian models to replace Kasrkin as the IST's in a future =I= force that I might someday make.

HsojVvad
16-10-2008, 02:07
Had a small chuckle. Storm Troopers as SoB. Talk about men in drag lol.

Seriously, I have no problem at all, just make shure you say what counts as what before the game, and have fun.

ehlijen
16-10-2008, 02:14
As long as:

They are equipped with bolters (or other weapons that are generally considered S4; las weapons are not) and
they are seriously up armoured beyond even Kasrkin carapace,

I have not problem. Anything short of that is not a sister of battle, it's just a funky storm trooper.

As for catachan carapace models: remember that all special equipment doctrines are, by the codex, required to be modeled onto the units that have them. So just calling catachan models 'carapaced' is against the rules as written.

decker_cky
16-10-2008, 03:27
However, to jump back on the catachans representing both 5+ and 6+ saves, the IG jungle fighters doctrine is for 6+, but the catachan codex has them with a 5+ save. The models represent the range.

Much like with catachan armour, the armours represent rough ranges. Wouldn't it be possible for and elite inquisition unit to have a higher quality material that even a heavy bolter doesn't punch through? I think the tau should pads are a good idea though, and will go a long way to making them more unique.

Regarding the bolters...I think actual bolters could be difficult to model on some of the stormtrooper models, but you should be able to suitably modify the hellguns to represent a weapon equivalent to a bolter's profile. Once again, the inquisition is using technology not available to standard imperial forces (maybe they're too expensive for even most stormtroopers to take to battle).

elite_dannux
16-10-2008, 06:27
Cry of the Wind
Its easy, i like the SOB rules (=regular humans with better equipment) but i dislike their models.
If speaking pure mathematics i dont know wich unit is better than the other, SOB bolter/Heavy Flamer of Stormtroopers with 2-3 plasma weapons.

Grey Knight have really nice models so there are really no "model conflikt" there.

Cry of the Wind
16-10-2008, 15:46
See that is the reason why I'm less inclined to you using stock Storm Troopers. You just want special rules and don't want to follow the fluff (i.e. power armour is rare and only given out to special people like Inquisitiors, Marines and Sisters). If you want to toss in an Inquisitor and explain that he has his own special armoury for his personal guard that is all fine and well but they should look tougher and more armoured than stock Storm Troopers.

The way I see it when GW does something weird like armoured bare chested Catachans then it is alright since everyone knows that they have a save and everyone agrees that it is stupid or is for game balance reasons (not to mention it's GW we're talking about :p). When a player starts proxying and claiming it is counts as just so they can use a unit that they don't like the model for something it raises all sorts of questions. Are they trying to be a cheesy git? How many times per game am I gonna have to ask you or at least ask myself what those models are again? At the end of the day if looks are so important to you then really you should take the time to make a power armour conversion or just drop a unit from your army that has poor models in your opinion.

I'll give you an example of what I did for a Thunderfire Cannon. I don't like the tracks and the Techmarine isn't as fitting into my army's background. So I put the Thunderfire Cannon on Sentinel legs so it can move and coverted a Techpreist Enginseer to having a servo-harness. The model are both different looking but have the base required parts (i.e. the cannon itself and there is a guy who is wearing power armour that is fancy looking as well as having a servo-harness, sure he is human but his stats can be explain by his bionics).

Finally, you don't want to be lazy like GW and just toss in rules that make no sense for the models they go for do you? :p

Dr.Clock
16-10-2008, 19:40
My biggest issue would be the faith one.

I understand that Guard are a little lacking in the way of staying power. STs as a rule have a pretty difficult time pulling off the sort of 'storming' they should be doing.

But SOB are very clearly defined as regular humans in power armour that are exceptionally, almost supernaturally devout.

While a unit of humans in power-armour with bolters is about right for a well-equipped Inquisitorial unit, the faith thing doesn't sit quite right.

That said, ambitious modelling is a virtue and should be rewarded. I would suggest looking into other alternatives, though. For instance, I am aware of at least one log in the M,P &T area that used chaos warriors suitably modified to represent sisters for a 'daemon world' army. They looked fantastic. You might do something similar to represent the personal bodyguard of the Inquisitor taken from a world he spared from Exterminatus, the inhabitants of which will now carry out great deeds of heroism on his behalf (see faith points).

Working SoB-stat figures into an 'IG' force is dubious and appears to be 'raiding' other dexes for better rules; especially when you just use models from your existing codex. Even if you are trying to fill a tactical gap in your army, or expand into new territory, (we've all been there) you should try and come up with a decent reason as to why the rules you use should fit from a fluff perspective.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

elite_dannux
16-10-2008, 19:52
Im really sorry but i cant find whats so wrong with male warriors being really deavout to the emperor. Do you mean that in an enourmous universe with billions of billons human, laser technology, deamons and unpaid overtime there are no room for males to be really religious?

Of course there will be an Inquisitor in the army and the SOB will be regular allies, its just that the models are butt ugly!

Id happy use any other models from any range/producer if i can find some nice theme fitting units.

Dr.Clock
16-10-2008, 20:34
Well, it's not that it couldn't happen... just that the Ecclesiarchy are strictly forbidden from having standing armies of MEN... so they have women. Although certainly individuals and even whole regiments from the IG probably are quite fanatical, they don't have quite the coherent focus and discipline that results in Acts of Faith.

As I said, linking them closely to one inquisitor and one world is probably the way to go.

Here's the link for the daemonworld PA mutants by the way... with Brettonnian or similar heads plus some application of purity seals and imperial iconography you'd have the basis for some really nice conversions methinks.

Here: http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32284&highlight=Slaanesh+daemonworld&page=6

post 118.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Lame Duck
16-10-2008, 21:15
Wait for the new guard codex and see what the new st are like.

Znail
16-10-2008, 23:12
If you realy dislike the SoB models, but want to field them somehow then I suggest using SMs as then there wont be any issues with gear.

Fallencarcass
17-10-2008, 00:27
I'd suggest Space Marines instead of Storm Troopers as well. STs just aren't similar to SoB.

With heavy converting I could see it work, but just plunking down 4+ save, non-bolter using, non-faithful Storm Troopers and calling them SoB just seems like a cheap way to use a better unit without actually using it.

Nostro
17-10-2008, 00:33
As someone who is going to do it in the unfortunately not foreseeable future, I say go for it !
STs are just SOBs with +1 save and bolters. They are as close as you can get. Scouts/marines have different statlines.

Stock cadians for me easily have a 4+ save, so saying your STs have reinforced armour and get 3+ is totally fine.

Plus Kasrkin look awesome and they would look even better with bolters.

elite_dannux
17-10-2008, 09:59
Would these be an ok compromise?
They are not GW models but that doesnt matter to me much.

They look very much like regular stormtroopers but with other weapons.

http://www.pig-iron-productions.com/pi_8window.htm

An Inquisitor and some weapon swichtes should do it.
Your opinions bitte!

totgeboren
17-10-2008, 11:07
I would have a problem with you using standard ST as SoB, since the ST got neither bolters nor powerarmour.
Also, the plastic scouts can be given bolters I think, and with just a quick headswap for a fully enclosed helm they look very good as Sob-wannabees (pig Iron got lots of nifty helms for that).


However, with abunch of converting (i.e. give your ST bolters and beef up the armour), I would be ok with using them as SoB.

The Pig Iron heavy infantry are maybe on the small side. They got no armour on their legs even. Though with some green-stuff they could work great. I myself use Pig Iron heads for all my guard models (almost 100 dudes).

hmmmm... It just feels like you want better rules without doing much to appease WYSIWYG.
I think thats the problem. People have nothing against someone who puts extra money and effort into his models for no game-wise benefit, but doing it the other way around tend to get some negative responses (trying to get game-wise benefits but not doing anything to represent it).

I dunno, this is something that is between you and your opponents. Even if everyone here says "Go for it!", it wont matter if your opponent says "no thanks, I just feels like you are cheating".

shin'keiro
17-10-2008, 11:58
StormTroopers in Drag? Reminds of 80's icon Gary Numan - lol

jfrazell
17-10-2008, 12:17
Young man you are on the doorway to the great land of Conversion. Open the Door, Step Through the Looking Glass, Jump on the Kawasaki and Pop a Wheelie.

Use the SOB rules to represent “heavy infantry” in your force. You can go as simple as substituting Pig Iron or other heads onto SOB bodies, to fully converting with Tau or Ork armor.

If using GW materials
*Tau firewarriors with human heads (could sub in as SOBs normally)
*Tau Stealth armor guys
*SOBS with Pig Iron heads.
*Ork mega armor or heavy armor with human heads and other bits.
*Old Pig ST’s. They look more advanced and could work well.

Asi the Red
18-10-2008, 14:47
Well, if you're not opposed to doing some converting to get good looking models you can claim have a 3+ save you could try Here (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157572).

If you'd rather just use the ST models but want to justify what they get for counting as SOB's, go the hi-tech armory route.
-Power Armor = Enhanced Carapace
The Inquisitor has equipped his personal guards with a much sought after pattern of enhanced carapace that makes use of rare alloys to increase the protection offered by the armor without increasing it's weight or bulk.
-Bolter = Hotshot Power Packs
Dipping into his private store of munitions, the Inquisitor has supplied his Stormtroopers with hotshot power packs for their hellguns. These power packs greatly enhance the penetration and stopping power of the already deadly hellgun, but are quickly drained and are replaced after every encounter.
-Divine Guidance = Overcharged Volley
These highly trained Stormtroopers are extensively drilled in overcharging their hellguns to provide maximum firepower. This tactic is used only on the Inquisitor's command, due to the extreme strain it places on both the hellgun and the already heavily modified power packs.
-Light of the Emperor = Personal Command
So highly trained are these troops that even when broken and panicked a brief comms message from their commanding Inquisitor can rally them anew, rousing them back into the fight or steeling their will for the battle to come.
-Spirit of the Martyr = ____________
The rare alloys present in the enhanced carapace worn by these troops has the highly sought after property of being able to withstand brief exposure to even the most deadly of weapons.
or
In addition to being crafted from high quality alloy, the carapace worn by these stormtroopers incorporates a compact shield generator that can provide protection against even the most deadly assault. However they must only be activated in the most dire of circumstance, as the miniaturized capacitors and circuitry has a habit of shorting out after prolonged use.
[ps. as a Tau player, the hi-tech route is always the best... ;)]



I dunno, this is something that is between you and your opponents. Even if everyone here says "Go for it!", it wont matter if your opponent says "no thanks, I just feels like you are cheating".
This is really the only part that matters. If you're running with a regular group, poll them, not us. If it's for a tourney, write two lists (one w/IST's as IST's, one with IST's as SOB's) and clear it with the tourney organizers.

Archangel_Ruined
18-10-2008, 15:06
I'd say no, while the difference between a 5+/4+ save is debatable in terms of armour worn on a model the storm troopers clearly don't have 3+ armour. They also don't have boltguns. I'd play against you if you were using the models to test a list, but not if you just didn't want to buy the models in the long term. That said, I might be missing the point if you were planning rather extensive conversions, but if that's the case you could use orks as SOB if you put the work in, so nobody would have a problem.

KaldCB
18-10-2008, 15:13
I have the same issue you have, and im going to use space marine scouts with elysian rispirator heads, i made a test model and i liked them.
They dont have power armour, but they look way bigger then storm troopers, so i think they will be fine,
The other models you found looked really nice, and should work fine as sisters.

elite_dannux
18-10-2008, 17:46
Asi

That link were very useful! And the Venusian Ranger theme looked good. Now i just need to find some rifles that looks like the Deathlockdrum rifle (picture weapon).

Perhaps an Bauhaus themed army would make a good IG theme?
For you who are not swedish, Mutant Chronicles/Doomtrooper were a card/RPG/tabletop game.

Doom Trooper
http://www.thewinternet.com/doomtrooper/

Mutant_Chronicles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutant_Chronicles

ShadowDeth
18-10-2008, 19:50
I'd be fine with it, I think most gamers would be. I consider myself very liberal when allowing "counts as", however because I think the sister models are so beautiful and are sorely underplayed, I would probably lean towards asking if sisters could be used as sisters.

Official stance - I'm fine with it
But I like seeing sisters on the table.