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PeG
15-10-2008, 14:48
If I understand correctly you normally reveal magical weapons and other equipment when they are used the first time. So the question is when do you use a magical armour?

I played against a daemon player yesterday and shot him with a magical arrow, rolled to hit, rolled to damage and then he made his armour save.

Later in the game I attacked the same daemon with a magical weapon, rolled to hit, rolled to damage and this time he failed is armour save. At this point he revealed that he was immune to magical effects of weapons. I thought this was incorrect but he claimed that this was the first time he "used" the magical ability of the armour.

My opinion is that the armour is used at the latest the first time you have to roll for an armour save regardless if the attack was magical or not. The same would go for revealing an armour that makes you immune to KB, immune to flaming attacks etc.

Crispian25
15-10-2008, 15:22
You should reveal it as soon as the item is used. If he made an armor save, then he used his armor.

theunwantedbeing
15-10-2008, 15:31
Of cours he doesnt have to reveal if the save is gained from a mundane effect of the armour.

ie. Magical heavy armour that doesnt provide an additional save is still heavy armour.
So unless the magical effect is also triggered your opponent only needs to state that it is heavy armour.

Malorian
15-10-2008, 18:59
That would be my call too: When the magical ability is actually first used.

apbevan
15-10-2008, 20:24
What was the magical effect he was saying he's immune too?

for instance if it was a sword of striking he would have to have told you before rolling to hit. If it was sword of might before rolling to wound. a weapon that turns 1 wound it d3 then he can tell you after your wound.

The weapon basically becomes mundane and so you need to know when your magical item would affect him.

Gazak Blacktoof
15-10-2008, 21:29
I don't think there any rules to cover this.

I'd normally tell my opponent about any item when he triggers the use of it or even if he negates its use. So if you hit a character with a no armour saves weapon and he was using an enchanted shield I'd probably say, "damn that means I can't use the juicy save from my enchanted shield".

In the situation under discussion I would have revealed the type of armour when he was shot and had to take his first armour save unless an effect of the armour kicked in against the magic arrow at an earlier stage.

SolarHammer
15-10-2008, 23:55
You should always mention what type of armour he has when deploying (light, medium, heavy, full plate, gromril, Chaos, etc.) because it should be "visible" and it's often hard to tell. Take a look at Vlad...

Of course if it's a type of armour that can only be granted by a magic item, say light armour on a Vampire, your opponent can figure it out for themselves that you have the Nightshroud but that depends on their own game education and I would not expect anyone to point it out for them.

DeathlessDraich
16-10-2008, 10:09
Of cours he doesnt have to reveal if the save is gained from a mundane effect of the armour.

ie. Magical heavy armour that doesnt provide an additional save is still heavy armour.
So unless the magical effect is also triggered your opponent only needs to state that it is heavy armour.

Are any effects from a magical item mundane?

Spirit
16-10-2008, 12:14
I would say yes, because magical heavy armour is (to me) seen as heavy armour (mundane ) with a magical effect (magical)

At our store, if you ask what a model has (because you cant always be wysiwyg) the opponent must say what type of armour and weapons you have that are mundane.

E.g a vampire with the flayed hauberk and the dreadlance would have to say he had a lance, but no mundane armour (as it does not have a type)

But a vampire with the helm of commandment and the nightshroud must only say he has light armour (which of course is the only light armour in vamps armoury, which gives itself away, but thats another story)

DeathlessDraich
16-10-2008, 15:58
Hmm.
Well there are no real guidelines here but most players I know reveal all magic items just as they are about to be used e.g. a weapon just before the bearer strikes, magic armour just before an armour save, etc.

Not explaining how an armour save is derived doesn't seem to be in the right spirit, Spirit:p

EvC
16-10-2008, 16:25
Yes, I myself would say something like "My Bloodthirster gets a three-up save from his Obsidian Armour" and note to my opponent that it also negates magic weapons. But then not everyone plays so fairly- I've seen people trying to avoid revealing who has the Ring of Hotek for example by measuring a circle 12" around a targeted unit to determine if a miscast is used, rather than just saying so-and-so has the Ring. Also an Ogre opponent rolled a dice before our game and then was extremely reluctant to tell me why he was doing it (Cos of the 5+ ward save item).

I really think just playing openly and honestly will facilitate the game in all areas, just try it ;)

Spirit
16-10-2008, 16:39
Hmm.
Well there are no real guidelines here but most players I know reveal all magic items just as they are about to be used e.g. a weapon just before the bearer strikes, magic armour just before an armour save, etc.

Not explaining how an armour save is derived doesn't seem to be in the right spirit, Spirit:p

Dont you think its more in spirit?

Without needing to take a saving throw, if someone asks for what my model is armed with, i say "He has no mundane armour" instead of "something, guess, good luck"

If however my vampire had to make a save, i would than say "he is wearing the flayed hauberk thus has a 2+ save"

If you see what mean, lol.

DeathlessDraich
16-10-2008, 17:08
Ah! you have spirit my friend - sorry prolonging an old joke.
I understand now. It's a matter of ...
Ask and you shall be given - fair enough.

Emeraldw
16-10-2008, 20:25
When determining armor save I simply state his armor save. If ASKED how I got there, I tell them. If there is a magic effect, I tell them when needed. For example if I need to take a ld test and they ask why, I tell them. Keeping magic items hidden is part of the game to me as you don't want them to know that if they get close to you their going to die! :D Gotta keep some surprises hidden (like the hail of doom arrow!).

So generally, when they need to know, I tell them. And if they ask, I tell them if it's obvious that I've got something hidden. Now if they ask if my mage has how many dispel scrolls, I'll say cast your spells and find out ^.^

Nedar
16-10-2008, 21:26
I would say that in non-open list games you reveal what your character has when he asks or if you so choose when you deploy him.

For instance if I place my Vampire Lord I would say:

"This is my general. He is a level three mage, has a magic weapon, magical heavy armor, a shield and rides a barded NM (he has dread knight power)."

I do not need to tell you what his magic weapon or armor is until it's use was needed, though as I'm a nice guy I might anyway.

Claiming that your character has heavy armor, and not saying it is magical until the very moment you can use it is misleading...I am quite sure people can see that you have armor and that it is magical in some way most of the time.

The rule of thumb is simply: Tell your opponent everything they could physically see, or that he should know as common knowledge. Character gear (minus the actual item's name and effect, their stats, special rules, should all be disclosed especially if asked.

Have fun!

TheDarkDaff
17-10-2008, 06:20
I tend to go Nedar's way. I tell my opponents my Hero there has magic Heavy Armour and a Magic Weapon/Lance/Great Weapon (i play DE so it can be easy to pick stuff when i say Magic Great weapon=Soulrender).

But that is just me. If i use the item at all i reveal it, so if i have to make a save i will tell people that heros has a 1+ save due to (insert Magic armour's name + mundane armour/mount). I won't however revel talismans and Arcane/Enchanted items until they are used.

BTW i would also point to my Chaos Hero and say "He has a Magic Item that makes him have Stupidity, guess what that is."

yoshimo
17-10-2008, 08:00
I tend to hand a copy of my army list to my opponent at the start of the game (then again I play daemons at the moment - not much secrecy involved)

Luisjoey
17-10-2008, 16:09
to prevent this... fantasy must take the rule of 40k

Wysiwyg and your opponent could see your army and viceversa

but that screw dispell scrolls and some surprises....

in that case for magic items... they must be revealed in the moment they are used for the very first time... if a character is inmune to fire it should say it the very first time it is attacked by fire.

theunwantedbeing
17-10-2008, 16:54
A magical item that makes a character immune to fire.
You only have to declare that the item exists when you have been successfully wounded by the fire based attack, not when you have been hit by it.

EvC
17-10-2008, 17:22
Yeah, I remember one tragic game where I was kicking a Tomb King opponent's rear, he charged his Tomb Scorpion at my Vampire Lord hoping for a quick kill, got one hit that didnt' wound, and was chopped up in return. A turn later the next Scorpion popped up and did the same, but my Lord had ASF at that point and struck it down before it could attack. I felt a little naughty that he'd now wasted two Scorpions on trying to kill my Vampire Lord- when she was immune to poison and killing blow :D

majiknf
19-10-2008, 17:23
really nice shot =) well me and my friend all play by WYSIWYG