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PeG
15-10-2008, 14:57
Seeing that most new armies that come out have magical items that can really mess with your magical phase (requiring higher rolls to cast, increasing the risk for miscasts, making miscasts worse, giving MR to lots of units etc) I am starting to wonder if a magic heavy build is going to continue to be viable.

There are of course a few exceptions like VC spamming IoN on one dice (not affected by banner of sundering, MR etc) and potentially some armies with miscast protection (Slann and maybe some others) but for the majority of armies spending points on offensive magic seems more and more like throwing away points. Also with some of the really powerfull spells that are coming out it seems like the most probable way of casting them is to have your enemy miscast and the way to avoid that is of course not to roll miscasts ie not to spend points on offensive magic.

Opinions?

Malorian
15-10-2008, 15:51
Well with the banner of sundering, high elves cancelling your magic phase, and dark elve making you have more miscasts it certainly is getting harder.

However, magic heavy will always be more point effective than being light on magic, so if you are going to take magic you should still go hard on it.

On the flip side, I think it is becoming more and more attractive to have no maigc at all. It will be interesting to see if this really starts to being a major trend.

SolarHammer
15-10-2008, 15:59
If anything these new defences are driving me to include more magic. I don't want to have my magic crippled, so now I feel like I have to take more in order to punch through or push past the challenges these items and abilities are providing. It might not be the smartest idea, but I always feel strange compulsions to overcome obstacles in the strangest ways.

"An item that makes me miscast? What a perfect time to take a Wizard lord!"

Lord Dan
15-10-2008, 16:16
If anything these new defences are driving me to include more magic. I don't want to have my magic crippled, so now I feel like I have to take more in order to punch through or push past the challenges these items and abilities are providing. It might not be the smartest idea, but I always feel strange compulsions to overcome obstacles in the strangest ways.

"An item that makes me miscast? What a perfect time to take a Wizard lord!"

It makes more sense than you're giving yourself credit for. Think about it:

-Your enemy has more armor, making your arrows less effective. What do you do? Fire more arrows.
-You're losing combat, and are now drastically outnumbered. What do you do? Send in more chumps t- er, I mean loyal soldiers.

Likewise, your magic is faltering. I think throwing more magic at the situation isn't that bad of an idea.

TheRaven476
15-10-2008, 18:04
Magic is still a very viable option, however, the new changes have made it so that it's not the "only" viable option. Before even if you didn't want to make a magic army you had to load up on so many level 1 wizards with scrolls to stop the oponents magic that you already had so many points invested, why not just go all out magic. The new items and rules mean that players who want a nice big combat lord can make a list that has some magic counters but doesn't bring an army of scroll caddies along with it.

blackjack
15-10-2008, 18:56
Malroian. You of all people know what happens to people who don't take magic and instead rely on magic defences like the banner of sundering or the Ring of Hoth. Your 14pd vampire army eats them. Ion is a 1 die spell you can spam with no chance of miscast or doubles.

I think vampires alone will ensure that very few tournament lists at least will rely on non magical armies.

Nothing beats a fist full of DD.

Malorian
15-10-2008, 19:11
Blackjack:

The people that do take magic against me however are faced with my handful of DD and the negatives from the balefires on my corpse carts. If those people had spent the same points on a good character killer, rather than magic I would just shut down or heal it's effects, they would do much better.

The typical magic heavy person will have a lord mage worth about 300 points, and at least two hero mages at about 150 each. With that 600 points you could take one wicked high elve prince on a star dragon, and god knows I'd rather face the magic heavy rather than that high elve list.

HE turn: Dragon flies to the flank
VC turn: HE uses the item that cancels my magic phase
HE turn: Dragon charges my lord

Rather than:

HE turn: Shoot whatever magic you can get off
VC turn: I raise it back up and move closer
Then repeat until the HE is grinded down to nothing.

TheRaven476
15-10-2008, 19:51
I may be wrong but isn't the vortex shard an arcane item that costs 80 points. So wouldn't you have to take a lord level mage to get it anyways?

Malorian
15-10-2008, 19:57
I may be wrong but isn't the vortex shard an arcane item that costs 80 points. So wouldn't you have to take a lord level mage to get it anyways?

You just had to prove me wrong, now didn't you :p

Well you get the idea though (that shard was just the icing on the cake). With all the points that people spend on magic that won't do anything against VC spamming lists, you could easily take a nasty lord on a dragon and have a much better chance of success.

blackjack
15-10-2008, 20:26
Come on Malorian.

Turn 1, Dragon flanks you.

Turn 2, you summon 12 million zombies and vanhales them into the dragon or at the very least screen your flank with them. Iv'e seen you do it a dozen times.

Malorian
15-10-2008, 20:48
It's not always that simple.

The obvious counter to that counter is having other units to block. Since the dragons can see over units you can run the unit behind another unit which can take the zombie rush and then still be able to fly over them and into the lord on their turn. Might take longer to setup, but there is no way a zombie rush is going to stop it.

Large target fliers are nasty... and only vampires have even a remote chance of avoiding them.

This gets even worse in large battles. A lot of people talk about tactics in 2000 games, but what happens in 3000? 4000? At that point you have to wrap your hopes up in the Von Carstein ring and hope for the best...

theunwantedbeing
15-10-2008, 20:54
Magic heavy tends to work just fine.

Ring of hotek?
Well unless the enemy has all their unit's with 12" of the guy who has the damned thing then there will be some unit's that do not get to benefit from the safety of the ring.
Those targets are then going to face the full wrath of a magic heavy army.
That and the guy holding the ring is now going to be a massive target for shooting/combat troops

Vortex shard....hideously expensive 1 use only item. Again, makes the guy a huge target once he's used it, as your opponent cackles with glee at the thought of such an expensive next to no save (and quite likely no save) character.

Sundering standard?
Only a problem for your magic heavy list if you took the same lore for every mage.
Unless the BsB is sitting with some flesh hounds the mages not affected by the standard are going to be putting that guy in a whole world of hurt. Failing that he's now a missile magnet.

Just like with a dragon, it will go down to enough st3 bows fired at it.
Even the most impregnable magically resistant unit will eventually go down to pummeling it with magic (unless of course it's a HE unit with the banner of the world dragon of course and maybe a character with the null stone and those guys are, you guessed it huge targets for missile troops).